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Keith Hobman
July 22nd 04, 05:21 PM
In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> exercises to address this second issue.
>

After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your wife can
live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will take some
time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as well.

But her overall flexibility will probably be down as she has been limited
in what she can do for some months, if she is typical. So I think
something like a bodyweight conditioning program would be good. But it
depends what she enjoys. Walking and getting one of those good strollers
could be appropriate.

Remember the C-section is surgery and like all intrusive surgery take it
slow and easy to recover.

--
Dawn's cold kiss calls me
Forth I creep, blindly stumbling
Joy: Morning workouts.
Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On Returning To Weights'

Keith Hobman
July 22nd 04, 05:38 PM
In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

> In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
> >> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
> >> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
> >> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> >> exercises to address this second issue.
> >>
>
> Forgot to say, it has been 3 years after birth.
>
> > After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
> > instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
> > wife can live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and
> > will take some time to tighten back up and of course there is the
> > fat issue as well.
>
> That's a good advice, thanks. She is getting into some exercise now,
> because she lost 20 lbs (by simply eating less), so now she has more
> interest in looking really good and being healthy. We already walk a
> little bit every evening and she is doing crunches every day. I figure
> it does not hurt.
>
> > But her overall flexibility will probably be down as she has been limited
> > in what she can do for some months, if she is typical. So I think
> > something like a bodyweight conditioning program would be good. But it
> > depends what she enjoys. Walking and getting one of those good strollers
> > could be appropriate.
>
> I see how I misled you into thinking that she is right after birth,
> no, it has been 3 years and the stroller is already in the attic.

Sorry about that.

You know, I've found one thing out. You can't force your spouse to stay fit.

Encourage her - yes. The best advice I can give you is to help her find
activities (which can, but doesn't necessarily include 'work-outs' she
enjoys and enable her to find the time to do them. Which may mean some
extra baby-sitting on your part, but down the road will be well worth it.

My own wife has never found exercise enjoyable, doesn't garden, doesn't
like to walk and is now paying the price. As she gains more weight it is
tougher and tougher for her to get motivated to do something - a real
catch-22. I'm at my wits end of finding something she can do. She has an
excuse for every activity I suggest.

--
Dawn's cold kiss calls me
Forth I creep, blindly stumbling
Joy: Morning workouts.
Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On Returning To Weights'

Proton Soup
July 22nd 04, 05:43 PM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:
>
>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
>> exercises to address this second issue.
>>
>
>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your wife can
>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will take some
>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as well.

And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last thing
you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't feeling
good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her belly
may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise her
sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Steve Freides
July 22nd 04, 05:57 PM
"Ignoramus20054" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Keith Hobman
wrote:
> > In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of
round,
> >> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that
it
> >> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly
it
> >> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> >> exercises to address this second issue.
> >>
>
> Forgot to say, it has been 3 years after birth.
>
> > After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
> > instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
> > wife can live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and
> > will take some time to tighten back up and of course there is the
> > fat issue as well.
>
> That's a good advice, thanks. She is getting into some exercise now,
> because she lost 20 lbs (by simply eating less), so now she has more
> interest in looking really good and being healthy. We already walk a
> little bit every evening and she is doing crunches every day. I figure
> it does not hurt.
>
> > But her overall flexibility will probably be down as she has been
limited
> > in what she can do for some months, if she is typical. So I think
> > something like a bodyweight conditioning program would be good. But
it
> > depends what she enjoys. Walking and getting one of those good
strollers
> > could be appropriate.
>
> I see how I misled you into thinking that she is right after birth,
> no, it has been 3 years and the stroller is already in the attic.

My wife had a C-section for our first child, now almost 12 years ago,
and she's still well aware of it. She says it doesn't really change her
exercise program, it just hurts there more than it otherwise would
sometimes and she feels it's weaker there than it otherwise would be as
well, but it doesn't stop her from doing anything.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

> i

Dally
July 22nd 04, 06:19 PM
Ignoramus20054 wrote:

> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> exercises to address this second issue.

Sorry, Igor, my c-section was 13 years ago. I weigh less than I did
before I got pregnant with that kid and my stomach is still deformed.
There are a few issues going on here.

One was that the abdominal bands were stretched during the pregnancy and
then sliced into. Despite hauling my body back to the gym 5 weeks
post-partum, they didn't just snap back into shape, they continued to be
in a weird configuration, sort of separated at the top. I've been told
that surgery to tighten those bands is my main option.

Another problem is just plain excess skin. I don't know if your wife is
the type who got stretch marks, but my body is GOOD at growing. Growing
babies, growing skin, adding fat cells and, happily, growing muscle
tissues (I've been reading about hyperplasia and it sounds like me.)

I'm not quite so good at shrinking. I've got a pooch of skin on my
lower abs that is empty of fat - you can toss it around like a ball of
dough. I think it is receding a tiny bit - at glacial speeds. It's
sort of a race: will I reach a level of independent wealth where I can
afford plastic surgery, or will my skin recede all on it's own. Ask me
in 20 years.

The third problem is societal expectations. Some women definitely
return to their "girlish" figure after childbirth, but an awful lot just
don't. I'm back to the what I weighed 15 years ago when I got married
and I can tell you that the weight doesn't look ANYTHING like it used to
on me before I had three kids. I'm using this body for real life. It's
got all sorts of dings and dents.

I got a kid out of that belly (three, actually) and if I've learned
anything it's that when the kids borrow something they never give it
back the way they got it.

Don't even get me started on boobs.

Dally, way more functional than ornamental

Dally
July 22nd 04, 06:24 PM
Steve Freides wrote:

> My wife had a C-section for our first child, now almost 12 years ago,
> and she's still well aware of it. She says it doesn't really change her
> exercise program, it just hurts there more than it otherwise would
> sometimes and she feels it's weaker there than it otherwise would be as
> well, but it doesn't stop her from doing anything.

This is seriously off-topic for this group, but I was in a conversation
with a friend of mine about scheduled C-sections. We'd both had an
unplanned c-section for our first kids and multiple VBACs afterwards and
both WAY prefer the VBACs. You can walk away from a normal birth! I
made dinner after giving birth to my third child. (Note: I tend to be
needlessly macho.) The main reason I hated a c-section was that it was
rotten timing to have major abdominal surgery just when I had a newborn
in the house.

Anyway, this is just one more reason to hate c-sections. I would have
to agree that my abdmoninal strength isn't on a par with people who had
never had the damage done to the bands that I had.

Dally

Keith Hobman
July 22nd 04, 06:33 PM
In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

> In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
> >
> >> In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> > In article >, Ignoramus20054
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
> >> >> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
> >> >> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
> >> >> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> >> >> exercises to address this second issue.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> Forgot to say, it has been 3 years after birth.
> >>
> >> > After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
> >> > instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
> >> > wife can live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and
> >> > will take some time to tighten back up and of course there is the
> >> > fat issue as well.
> >>
> >> That's a good advice, thanks. She is getting into some exercise now,
> >> because she lost 20 lbs (by simply eating less), so now she has more
> >> interest in looking really good and being healthy. We already walk a
> >> little bit every evening and she is doing crunches every day. I figure
> >> it does not hurt.
> >>
> >> > But her overall flexibility will probably be down as she has been limited
> >> > in what she can do for some months, if she is typical. So I think
> >> > something like a bodyweight conditioning program would be good. But it
> >> > depends what she enjoys. Walking and getting one of those good strollers
> >> > could be appropriate.
> >>
> >> I see how I misled you into thinking that she is right after birth,
> >> no, it has been 3 years and the stroller is already in the attic.
> >
> > Sorry about that.
> >
> > You know, I've found one thing out. You can't force your spouse to stay fit.
>
> No, I am trying to get her to walk, she needs it, due to certain
> genetic issues (which are real, I would just rather not go into them)
> she needs some exercise. In fact she herself agrees with that and it
> was her idea to ask me to force her to walk. Sounds odd, I know.
>
> There is no objective on my part to "make her look better", which
> I communicated to her. She looks good enough for me, but Iknow that
> she needs exercise.
>
> If she stays sedentary, her health is likely to be in trouble after 15
> or so years, in a known way.
>
> > Encourage her - yes. The best advice I can give you is to help her
> > find activities (which can, but doesn't necessarily include
> > 'work-outs' she enjoys and enable her to find the time to do
> > them. Which may mean some extra baby-sitting on your part, but down
> > the road will be well worth it.
>
> It's a good advice. A project to flatten her belly is something she
> takes great interest in herself, so, I am asking for practical
> suggestions towards that.
>
> > My own wife has never found exercise enjoyable, doesn't garden, doesn't
> > like to walk and is now paying the price. As she gains more weight it is
> > tougher and tougher for her to get motivated to do something - a real
> > catch-22. I'm at my wits end of finding something she can do. She has an
> > excuse for every activity I suggest.
>
> It's definitely a tough situation and I am genuinely sorry. Is she
> concerned with her own health? I have seen this happen a few times, in
> fact I was fat myself and unconcerned about it, at some point.

I don't think her health concerns her. but her appearance does. Obviously
not enough to warrant disciplined action.

--
Dawn's cold kiss calls me
Forth I creep, blindly stumbling
Joy: Morning workouts.
Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On Returning To Weights'

Proton Soup
July 22nd 04, 07:01 PM
On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

>In article >, Proton Soup wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
>>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
>>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
>>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
>>>> exercises to address this second issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
>>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your wife can
>>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will take some
>>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as well.
>>
>> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last thing
>> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't feeling
>> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her belly
>> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise her
>> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
>
>She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
>belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
>hers, but I digress.
>
>There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
>fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she is
>aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.

Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better to
have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some of
them and have something to feel good about.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Proton Soup
July 22nd 04, 07:14 PM
On 22 Jul 2004 18:10:35 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

>In article >, Proton Soup wrote:
>> On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, Proton Soup wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
>>>>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
>>>>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
>>>>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
>>>>>> exercises to address this second issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
>>>>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your wife can
>>>>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will take some
>>>>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as well.
>>>>
>>>> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last thing
>>>> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't feeling
>>>> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her belly
>>>> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise her
>>>> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
>>>
>>>She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
>>>belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
>>>hers, but I digress.
>>>
>>>There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
>>>fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she is
>>>aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.
>>
>> Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better to
>> have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some of
>> them and have something to feel good about.
>
>good point, so, the message is, tat nothing coud be done froma muscle
>perspective.

Well, according to Dally, plastic surgery would help hers. She should
still try, though, don't know until you try. Never know, might get
half way.

>> "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."
>
>let me guess, that means don't **** into the wind

A wise man doesn't.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Lyle McDonald
July 22nd 04, 07:16 PM
Ignoramus20054 wrote:
> In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:

>>Encourage her - yes. The best advice I can give you is to help her
>>find activities (which can, but doesn't necessarily include
>>'work-outs' she enjoys and enable her to find the time to do
>>them. Which may mean some extra baby-sitting on your part, but down
>>the road will be well worth it.
>
>
> It's a good advice. A project to flatten her belly is something she
> takes great interest in herself, so, I am asking for practical
> suggestions towards that.

1. Enter advanced physics PhD program.
2. Solve time travel issues.
3. Go back in time and either don't get pregnant or don't have a C-section.

The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
anything that can be done.

Failing that get Paul Chek's "Awesome Abs", some of the 'low ab' drills
might be useful.

Lyle

Dally
July 22nd 04, 09:29 PM
Ignoramus20054 wrote:
> In article >, Dally wrote:

> I read a book about aging, before, and it says that shrinkability of
> the skin is determined by the elasticity of collagen, which, in turn,
> is inversely dependent on quantity of Advaned Glycation End products
> (AGEs). AGEs are products of glycosylation of (adding glucose to)
> tissues, and accumulate faster if blood glucose levels are high.

So diabetic people have worse skin tone?

> A simple experiment is called a pinch test. Pinch the back of your
> hand, raise the skin up, and release it. In younger people, skin
> recedes in under a second, in old people, much longer.
>
> I tried to do this with my 80 year old grandma, her skin recedes
> extremely slowly. Mine just snaps into place.

Uh, this is also a test for dehydration. Give that woman a glass of water.

Dally

Dally
July 22nd 04, 09:37 PM
Proton Soup wrote:

> On 22 Jul 2004 18:10:35 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:

>> so, the message is, that nothing coud be done from a muscle
>>perspective.
>
>
> Well, according to Dally, plastic surgery would help hers. She should
> still try, though, don't know until you try. Never know, might get
> half way.

Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board across
her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin. (At the time he said this
I couldn't FIND my pelvic bones so it didn't pertain much, but now I'm
wondering what he meant by "fit" in this case.)

I'm never going to have a flat stomach without having those muscles
physically tightened and re-attached by a surgeon, but I've come a long
ways by losing so much fat. So some of the bulge is addressable.

Personally, I'd recommend HIIT and squats and deadlifts instead of long
walks and ab work if the goal is losing intra-abdominal fat stores.

Dally

Lyle McDonald
July 22nd 04, 09:51 PM
Dally wrote:

> Proton Soup wrote:
>
>> On 22 Jul 2004 18:10:35 GMT, Ignoramus20054
>> > wrote:
>
>
>>> so, the message is, that nothing coud be done from a muscle
>>> perspective.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, according to Dally, plastic surgery would help hers. She should
>> still try, though, don't know until you try. Never know, might get
>> half way.
>
>
> Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
> due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
> Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board across
> her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.

No way was that me.

Lyle

Dally
July 22nd 04, 09:56 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
>
>
>>In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>>My own wife has never found exercise enjoyable, doesn't garden, doesn't
>>>like to walk and is now paying the price. As she gains more weight it is
>>>tougher and tougher for her to get motivated to do something - a real
>>>catch-22. I'm at my wits end of finding something she can do. She has an
>>>excuse for every activity I suggest.

I know this scenario well. I've lived it from both ends. She won't
change until she chooses to change. Until then you're just raising the
stress levels by wishing she would.

I got up to "massive cow" status before I decided to change. The main
reason I got so fat is that I didn't choose not to. I preferred to eat
a lot and stick with exercises that were within my comfort zone. I
wasn't bothered by how I looked (I didn't really care) and I wasn't
particularly discomfitted from my size... for a while.

But then I did start to have standard of living issues. I couldn't fit
easily into rides at the amusement park with my kids. My feet hurt -
badly. My husband started seeming long-suffering. I actually had a
conversation with a girlfriend over the choice people seem to be facing
of keeping the fat and losing the husband versus losing the fat and
keeping the husband. I preferred to see my future as happily married
and slender versus that of an unhappy single militant fat lady.

>>It's definitely a tough situation and I am genuinely sorry. Is she
>>concerned with her own health? I have seen this happen a few times, in
>>fact I was fat myself and unconcerned about it, at some point.
>
> I don't think her health concerns her. but her appearance does. Obviously
> not enough to warrant disciplined action.

I think a bunch of things came together for me at the same time that
allowed me to make the leap into changing my mind about my weight. One
of them - a pretty common one - was catching sight of my mother in some
candid pictures. Only my mother wasn't there. That was ME looking fat
and old. So my first recommendation is to take lots of candid pictures
and make sure she sees them. My husband recently took a crowd shot that
showed my rear end in a bathing suit. I assure you that I find it
motivating to stick to my diet after seeing that picture!

Another one was some blood work and a frank discussion with my doctor.
I had all the markings of Syndrome X, which she referred to as "still
reversible pre-diabetes." I felt fine, but faced a future of illness
and limitation unless I changed.

Another motivator was a comment from a casual acquaintance when I told
her I didn't have time to get to the gym anymore. She said something
along the lines of, "not going doesn't seem to be doing you any good."
What that meant was, "you're fatter than you've ever been." I had never
been called fat before.

I know this seems bizarre, but getting fat is such a gradual process and
is so easy to do when you're putting everyone else's needs first that I
truly missed the awareness that I had became obese. My self-image was
badly out of tune with the reality. A stranger had to point it out to me.

So take some pictures, hire a kid to call her a "fat lady" in the
grocery store, call her doctor and tell the doctor to make sure to point
out your wife's BMI is obese, then send your wife in for bloodwork and a
chat with the doctor.

Good luck.

Dally, FFID Emeritus

Dally
July 22nd 04, 10:38 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> Dally wrote:
>
>> Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
>> due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
>> Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board
>> across her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.
>
>
> No way was that me.

Aw, hell, have you any idea how many threads I googled trying to prove
it was you? It had something to do with eyeing body fat percentages by
looking at your stomach pooch (or lack of one.) I think it was back in
the Ghost of Lyle days. You're the only one who ever uses the term
"trochanter" and that's what you were laying the board across. Or your
ghost. Or someone else completely. Dammit. Googling you is like
looking for one particular blade of grass.

Dally

Keith Hobman
July 22nd 04, 11:01 PM
In article >, Dally > wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >>
> >>>My own wife has never found exercise enjoyable, doesn't garden, doesn't
> >>>like to walk and is now paying the price. As she gains more weight it is
> >>>tougher and tougher for her to get motivated to do something - a real
> >>>catch-22. I'm at my wits end of finding something she can do. She has an
> >>>excuse for every activity I suggest.
>
> I know this scenario well. I've lived it from both ends. She won't
> change until she chooses to change. Until then you're just raising the
> stress levels by wishing she would.
>
> I got up to "massive cow" status before I decided to change. The main
> reason I got so fat is that I didn't choose not to. I preferred to eat
> a lot and stick with exercises that were within my comfort zone. I
> wasn't bothered by how I looked (I didn't really care) and I wasn't
> particularly discomfitted from my size... for a while.
>
> But then I did start to have standard of living issues. I couldn't fit
> easily into rides at the amusement park with my kids. My feet hurt -
> badly. My husband started seeming long-suffering. I actually had a
> conversation with a girlfriend over the choice people seem to be facing
> of keeping the fat and losing the husband versus losing the fat and
> keeping the husband. I preferred to see my future as happily married
> and slender versus that of an unhappy single militant fat lady.

This is not a situation my wife will be in while I live. I take
committment seriously. But she is making it tougher than it should be.
>
> >>It's definitely a tough situation and I am genuinely sorry. Is she
> >>concerned with her own health? I have seen this happen a few times, in
> >>fact I was fat myself and unconcerned about it, at some point.
> >
> > I don't think her health concerns her. but her appearance does. Obviously
> > not enough to warrant disciplined action.
>
> I think a bunch of things came together for me at the same time that
> allowed me to make the leap into changing my mind about my weight. One
> of them - a pretty common one - was catching sight of my mother in some
> candid pictures. Only my mother wasn't there. That was ME looking fat
> and old. So my first recommendation is to take lots of candid pictures
> and make sure she sees them. My husband recently took a crowd shot that
> showed my rear end in a bathing suit. I assure you that I find it
> motivating to stick to my diet after seeing that picture!
>
> Another one was some blood work and a frank discussion with my doctor.
> I had all the markings of Syndrome X, which she referred to as "still
> reversible pre-diabetes." I felt fine, but faced a future of illness
> and limitation unless I changed.
>
> Another motivator was a comment from a casual acquaintance when I told
> her I didn't have time to get to the gym anymore. She said something
> along the lines of, "not going doesn't seem to be doing you any good."
> What that meant was, "you're fatter than you've ever been." I had never
> been called fat before.
>
> I know this seems bizarre, but getting fat is such a gradual process and
> is so easy to do when you're putting everyone else's needs first that I
> truly missed the awareness that I had became obese. My self-image was
> badly out of tune with the reality. A stranger had to point it out to me.
>
> So take some pictures, hire a kid to call her a "fat lady" in the
> grocery store, call her doctor and tell the doctor to make sure to point
> out your wife's BMI is obese, then send your wife in for bloodwork and a
> chat with the doctor.

hooo boy.

I'll see what of this I can implement. I like the pictures idea. Thanks!

Lyle McDonald
July 22nd 04, 11:04 PM
Dally wrote:
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
>> Dally wrote:
>>
>>> Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
>>> due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
>>> Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board
>>> across her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.
>>
>>
>>
>> No way was that me.
>
>
> Aw, hell, have you any idea how many threads I googled trying to prove
> it was you?

I did 2 searches on pelvis and pelvic bones.
It wasn't me, I would never say something that moronic.

It had something to do with eyeing body fat percentages by
> looking at your stomach pooch (or lack of one.)

I doubt it. I think I mentioned that elzi, despite hitting sub 7%
bodyfat still had a small pooch, as a consequence of having had a kid.
Only post that turned up with the above search.

It wouldn't gauge fitness anyhow, it would indicate leanness (or
emaciation). I bet a lot of heroin addicts would meet that standard.

Lyle

billydee
July 22nd 04, 11:31 PM
Proton Soup > wrote in message >...
> On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, Proton Soup wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of round,
> >>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel that it
> >>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but partly it
> >>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> >>>> exercises to address this second issue.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area, but
> >>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your wife can
> >>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will take some
> >>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as well.
> >>
> >> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last thing
> >> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't feeling
> >> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her belly
> >> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise her
> >> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
> >
> >She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
> >belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
> >hers, but I digress.
> >
> >There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
> >fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she is
> >aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.
>
> Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better to
> have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some of
> them and have something to feel good about.
>
> -----------
> Proton Soup
>
> "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you can
likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.

Steve Freides
July 23rd 04, 01:37 AM
"billydee" > wrote in message
om...
> Proton Soup > wrote in message
>...
> > On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >In article >, Proton
Soup wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of
round,
> > >>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel
that it
> > >>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but
partly it
> > >>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> > >>>> exercises to address this second issue.
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area,
but
> > >>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
wife can
> > >>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will
take some
> > >>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as
well.
> > >>
> > >> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last
thing
> > >> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't
feeling
> > >> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her
belly
> > >> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise
her
> > >> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
> > >
> > >She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
> > >belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
> > >hers, but I digress.
> > >
> > >There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
> > >fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she
is
> > >aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.
> >
> > Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better
to
> > have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some
of
> > them and have something to feel good about.
> >
> > -----------
> > Proton Soup
> >
> > "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."
>
> I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
> one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
> quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
> physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you can
> likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
> determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
> women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
> nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
> around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.

How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with this.
I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the C-Section,
better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost it
all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition than
she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was 34
when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Lucas Buck
July 23rd 04, 02:17 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:51:52 -0500, Lyle McDonald > wrote:

>Dally wrote:
>
>> Proton Soup wrote:
>>
>>> On 22 Jul 2004 18:10:35 GMT, Ignoramus20054
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> so, the message is, that nothing coud be done from a muscle
>>>> perspective.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, according to Dally, plastic surgery would help hers. She should
>>> still try, though, don't know until you try. Never know, might get
>>> half way.
>>
>>
>> Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
>> due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
>> Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board across
>> her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.
>
>No way was that me.
>
>Lyle

Perhaps it was a suggestion to lay a board across her forehead at a high velocity.

Dally
July 23rd 04, 03:19 AM
Ignoramus20054 wrote:
> Keith, personally, I would choose the health issue as the main
> background to convince her to lose weight. Being obese hugely reduces
> quality and expectancy of life.

You can't lose weight to please someone else. It'll only foster
resentment. Losing weight is something that requires attention 7 times
a day every day for the rest of your life. It's too all-encompassing to
do because it would make someone else happy with you.

Educating her, hassling, beseaching, begging, imperiously ordering her
for her own good... these won't work. I don't know what makes someone
else decide to do it, but it requires an epiphany, a choice, and a
decision.

It's not rocket science. It's easy to figure out when you decide to do
it. But until you decide to do it, well, it's absolutely impossible.

We've been fighting, you and I, about the uselessness of willpower for
nearly two years now. Do you get it yet? You can't bully yourself into
doing this. You've got to be 100% behind your decision. (By the way,
as of yesterday I'm down a full 70 pounds.)

Dally

Dally
July 23rd 04, 03:30 AM
Lucas Buck wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:51:52 -0500, Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>
>>Dally wrote:

>>>Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
>>>due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
>>>Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board across
>>>her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.
>>
>>No way was that me.
>>
>>Lyle
>
> Perhaps it was a suggestion to lay a board across her forehead at a high velocity.

Poor showing, Buck-Boy. You can do WAY better than that. That was just
meanness without any particular style or wit. No decent word play,
either. If you're going to bother to insult me I want to see you make
your best effort.

BTW, someone did this once. I was a geeky-smart dweeb in a new junior
high - moved there mid-year - and was being bullied. One day in a golf
class a boy looked me in the eye and then swung his club fast and hard
straight into my temple. Knocked me out and nearly killed me right
there on the green.

Ha ha. What a laugh riot. (Of course he claimed it was an accident, my
temple got in the way of his swing, and he got to grow up thinking it
was just fine and dandy to bash in heads of people he disliked for no
particular reason.)

Dally

Lee Michaels
July 23rd 04, 03:42 AM
"Dally" > wrote
>
> Ha ha. What a laugh riot. (Of course he claimed it was an accident, my
> temple got in the way of his swing, and he got to grow up thinking it
> was just fine and dandy to bash in heads of people he disliked for no
> particular reason.)
>
With all the troubles you have had with schools, both growing up and now,
you would think that you would have moved to an area with better schools.

Dally
July 23rd 04, 03:45 AM
Steve Freides wrote:

> "billydee" > wrote in message
> om...

>>I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
>>one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
>>quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
>>physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you can
>>likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
>>determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
>>women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
>>nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
>>around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.

I'm sure it happens. It's an interesting story. Your idea counters my
theory that I had particularly bad damage because my abs were
particularly tight (and therefore needed more cutting and less pushing
aside.) I had worked out through-out my pregnancy and was in pretty
good shape at that time. Actually, at the time there was a rash of
emergency c-sections amongst my friends who exercised. We suspected we
were just too tight somehow to give birth naturally. My c-section came
after three days of labor - that kid just wouldn't go out that way.

> How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with this.
> I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the C-Section,
> better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost it
> all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition than
> she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was 34
> when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.

And your idea counters my experience: I was only 26 when I had the kid
who needed a c-section. I was 34 with my last kid and bounced back
remarkably fast from that pregnancy.

I think in the end that each woman's experiences will be different. I
know that each of my kid's labors were all remarkably different.

Dally

Steve Freides
July 23rd 04, 03:48 AM
"Dally" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Freides wrote:
>
> > "billydee" > wrote in message
> > om...
>
> >>I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
> >>one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
> >>quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
> >>physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you
can
> >>likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
> >>determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
> >>women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
> >>nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
> >>around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.
>
> I'm sure it happens. It's an interesting story. Your idea counters
my
> theory that I had particularly bad damage because my abs were
> particularly tight (and therefore needed more cutting and less pushing
> aside.) I had worked out through-out my pregnancy and was in pretty
> good shape at that time. Actually, at the time there was a rash of
> emergency c-sections amongst my friends who exercised. We suspected
we
> were just too tight somehow to give birth naturally. My c-section
came
> after three days of labor - that kid just wouldn't go out that way.
>
> > How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with
this.
> > I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the
C-Section,
> > better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost
it
> > all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition
than
> > she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was
34
> > when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.
>
> And your idea counters my experience: I was only 26 when I had the kid
> who needed a c-section. I was 34 with my last kid and bounced back
> remarkably fast from that pregnancy.

You were 34 and bounced back remarkably fast; my wife was 34 and bounced
back remarkably fast - no disagreement there. But it was quite
different when she was almost 40 for #2 child. I think whatever
recovery abilities she had went down significantly her late 30's but not
until then.

> I think in the end that each woman's experiences will be different. I
> know that each of my kid's labors were all remarkably different.

Yes, no doubt about that. Child #2 was an easy delivery for my wife and
he continues to be easy; whereas child #1 has been an "operation" from
the get-go.

:)

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Dally
>

Keith Hobman
July 23rd 04, 03:50 AM
In article >, Ignoramus20054
> wrote:

> Keith, personally, I would choose the health issue as the main
> background to convince her to lose weight. Being obese hugely reduces
> quality and expectancy of life.

That's been my tact. And she is not morbidly obese, just mildly. But
getting deeper in every year.

From a health point the issue is pretty clear. You can spend the time
exercising and watching your diet now - or spend the time having the
hospital monitor your diet later.

Dally
July 23rd 04, 04:27 AM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Dally" > wrote
>
>>Ha ha. What a laugh riot. (Of course he claimed it was an accident, my
>>temple got in the way of his swing, and he got to grow up thinking it
>>was just fine and dandy to bash in heads of people he disliked for no
>>particular reason.)
>>
>
> With all the troubles you have had with schools, both growing up and now,
> you would think that you would have moved to an area with better schools.

Well, my experience with bullying as both a bullied child and a parent
of middle-schoolers is that bullies are everywhere. Tne dweeby new kid
is going to get victimized in nearly every middle school I've ever seen.

That said, I paid big bucks to send my dweebiest kid to a private middle
school with only 11 children in it. No bullying there. And we're
sending her to private high school, too. We moved to this non-trendy
town before we had kids because this was where we could afford to buy a
house back when I was 24. It was a false economy when you consider how
much I've shelled out for private school tuition since then.

[Girl-child, if you're reading this, I love you dearly but you've got to
admit that little kids who code websites all day long and figure out how
to google and find their mother's aliases ARE a bit dweeby.]

Dally

User
July 23rd 04, 06:16 AM
> My own wife has never found exercise enjoyable, doesn't garden, doesn't
> like to walk and is now paying the price. As she gains more weight it is
> tougher and tougher for her to get motivated to do something - a real
> catch-22. I'm at my wits end of finding something she can do. She has an
> excuse for every activity I suggest.

Thank christ I'm not the only one with this problem.

John HUDSON
July 23rd 04, 08:44 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:37:34 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>"billydee" > wrote in message
om...
>> Proton Soup > wrote in message
>...
>> > On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> > >In article >, Proton
>Soup wrote:
>> > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith
>Hobman)
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
>> > > wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of
>round,
>> > >>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel
>that it
>> > >>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but
>partly it
>> > >>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
>> > >>>> exercises to address this second issue.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area,
>but
>> > >>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
>wife can
>> > >>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will
>take some
>> > >>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as
>well.
>> > >>
>> > >> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last
>thing
>> > >> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't
>feeling
>> > >> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her
>belly
>> > >> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise
>her
>> > >> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
>> > >
>> > >She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
>> > >belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
>> > >hers, but I digress.
>> > >
>> > >There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
>> > >fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she
>is
>> > >aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.
>> >
>> > Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better
>to
>> > have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some
>of
>> > them and have something to feel good about.
>> >
>> > -----------
>> > Proton Soup
>> >
>> > "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."
>>
>> I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
>> one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
>> quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
>> physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you can
>> likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
>> determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
>> women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
>> nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
>> around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.
>
>How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with this.
>I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the C-Section,
>better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost it
>all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition than
>she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was 34
>when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.

Cue Hateful Hoffy!!

HAGW!!

TFIF!!

John HUDSON
July 23rd 04, 09:01 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:48:46 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>"Dally" > wrote in message
...
>> Steve Freides wrote:
>>
>> > "billydee" > wrote in message
>> > om...
>>
>> >>I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
>> >>one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
>> >>quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
>> >>physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you
>can
>> >>likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
>> >>determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
>> >>women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
>> >>nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
>> >>around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.
>>
>> I'm sure it happens. It's an interesting story. Your idea counters
>my
>> theory that I had particularly bad damage because my abs were
>> particularly tight (and therefore needed more cutting and less pushing
>> aside.) I had worked out through-out my pregnancy and was in pretty
>> good shape at that time. Actually, at the time there was a rash of
>> emergency c-sections amongst my friends who exercised. We suspected
>we
>> were just too tight somehow to give birth naturally. My c-section
>came
>> after three days of labor - that kid just wouldn't go out that way.
>>
>> > How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with
>this.
>> > I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the
>C-Section,
>> > better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost
>it
>> > all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition
>than
>> > she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was
>34
>> > when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.
>>
>> And your idea counters my experience: I was only 26 when I had the kid
>> who needed a c-section. I was 34 with my last kid and bounced back
>> remarkably fast from that pregnancy.
>
>You were 34 and bounced back remarkably fast; my wife was 34 and bounced
>back remarkably fast - no disagreement there. But it was quite
>different when she was almost 40 for #2 child. I think whatever
>recovery abilities she had went down significantly her late 30's but not
>until then.
>
>> I think in the end that each woman's experiences will be different. I
>> know that each of my kid's labors were all remarkably different.
>
>Yes, no doubt about that. Child #2 was an easy delivery for my wife and
>he continues to be easy; whereas child #1 has been an "operation" from
>the get-go.

Cue Hateful Hoffy!!

HAGW!!

TFIF!!

Lucas Buck
July 23rd 04, 09:16 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:30:19 -0400, Dally > wrote:

>Lucas Buck wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:51:52 -0500, Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>
>>>Dally wrote:
>
>>>>Also, don't forget the FFID factor. Some of the lower belly bulge is
>>>>due to fat stores padding the organs in the pelvic cavity. I recall
>>>>Lyle once saying that a fit woman ought to be able to lay a board across
>>>>her pelvic bones and not have it touch skin.
>>>
>>>No way was that me.
>>>
>>>Lyle
>>
>> Perhaps it was a suggestion to lay a board across her forehead at a high velocity.
>
>Poor showing, Buck-Boy. You can do WAY better than that. That was just
>meanness without any particular style or wit. No decent word play,
>either. If you're going to bother to insult me I want to see you make
>your best effort.

I wasn't insulting you. I was theorizing that Lyle had insulted you.

>BTW, someone did this once. I was a geeky-smart dweeb in a new junior
>high - moved there mid-year - and was being bullied. One day in a golf
>class a boy looked me in the eye and then swung his club fast and hard
>straight into my temple. Knocked me out and nearly killed me right
>there on the green.

This explains much.

>Ha ha. What a laugh riot. (Of course he claimed it was an accident, my
>temple got in the way of his swing,

Oh, right. The natural trajectory of a golf swing never reaches head level, huh?

>and he got to grow up thinking it
>was just fine and dandy to bash in heads of people he disliked for no
>particular reason.)
>
>Dally

If that was true, did you press charges for battery? If not, why not?

Elzinator
July 23rd 04, 02:06 PM
Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
> Ignoramus20054 wrote:
> > In article >, Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> >>Encourage her - yes. The best advice I can give you is to help her
> >>find activities (which can, but doesn't necessarily include
> >>'work-outs' she enjoys and enable her to find the time to do
> >>them. Which may mean some extra baby-sitting on your part, but down
> >>the road will be well worth it.
> >
> >
> > It's a good advice. A project to flatten her belly is something she
> > takes great interest in herself, so, I am asking for practical
> > suggestions towards that.
>
> 1. Enter advanced physics PhD program.
> 2. Solve time travel issues.
> 3. Go back in time and either don't get pregnant or don't have a C-section.
>
> The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
> mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
> anything that can be done.
>
> Failing that get Paul Chek's "Awesome Abs", some of the 'low ab' drills
> might be useful.

The issues with C-sections are several. In addition to Lyle's comments
above, the scar tissue that forms is problematic. Usually the several
layers of abdominal tissue (muscle and CT) adhere together which
interferes with muscle recruitment. This was confirmed by a surgeon I
talked to regarding this issue in a former client. He said that the
degree of adhesions is typically determined by the incision, quality
of the stitching job and the recovery of the patient. Sometimes
adhesions can be surgically removed (as several were in the case of my
client). Also, he commented that doing isometric tightening in the
later stages of recovery reduces the adhesions, but that has to be
supervised by the surgeon (when to start and what intensity/volume).
He encourages his patients to do abdomincal exercises during the
recovery period (later stage of recovery) which helps to reduce scar
tissue and adhesion formation.

Another modality we tried was to reteach Marla how to voluntarily
recruit her ab musculature. We started with simple drills (using
touch/teach, etc), progressing to greater frequency/intensity/volume,
then incorporating stabilization drills. It took many months, and she
performed the drills daily (she was exceptionally driven). She was
able to regain muscle recruitment (Paul Chek's low ab drills were
useful). In combination with ab muscle control and overall weight
control program (she was not overweight, but lacked mostly muscle
recruitment, which also cleared up her low back pain), she had a very
flat stomach.

However, after pregnancy, all those tissues are stretched out,
including internal tissues (not just skin). Even the uterus can change
position (part of my poochi-problem: it tips outward, which is why I
have problems with stomach pads on some machines). And if the woman is
post-menopausal, women start to lay down visceral fat around the
internal organs (adopting an adrogyne fat deposition pattern)due to
changes in hormones.

C-sections eliminate part of the natural process in the birthing and
post-birth, so some of the changes (hormonal and physical) that
typically proceed after a normal vaginal pregnancy don't after a
C-section. These mothers typically have more problems with weight
loss, etc, after a birth.

Lyle McDonald
July 23rd 04, 02:13 PM
Lucas Buck wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:30:19 -0400, Dally > wrote:


>>Poor showing, Buck-Boy. You can do WAY better than that. That was just
>>meanness without any particular style or wit. No decent word play,
>>either. If you're going to bother to insult me I want to see you make
>>your best effort.
>
>
> I wasn't insulting you. I was theorizing that Lyle had insulted you.

You will know when Lyle is insulting you.
Subtlety is rarely my mode or modus.

Lyle

Lee Michaels
July 23rd 04, 02:29 PM
"Lyle McDonald" wrote

> Lucas Buck wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:30:19 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>
>
> >>Poor showing, Buck-Boy. You can do WAY better than that. That was just
> >>meanness without any particular style or wit. No decent word play,
> >>either. If you're going to bother to insult me I want to see you make
> >>your best effort.
> >
> >
> > I wasn't insulting you. I was theorizing that Lyle had insulted you.
>
> You will know when Lyle is insulting you.
> Subtlety is rarely my mode or modus.
>

Subtlety?? Lyle?? Subtlety?? Lyle??

No, they just don't go together.

Sorry, does not compute.

shumway
July 23rd 04, 02:31 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
> mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
> anything that can be done.
>

Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
(permanent) damage is done during a C-Section and whether it is likely for
a woman to regain her flat stomach post C-section?

Dally
July 23rd 04, 03:25 PM
shumway wrote:
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>anything that can be done.
>
> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
> (permanent) damage is done during a C-Section and whether it is likely for
> a woman to regain her flat stomach post C-section?

Did you read Elzi's post? Or any of mine, for that matter? Surgical
solutions exist.

But I object to the term "likely". Don't you think it's a bit
individual? Even if 90% of the women can't do it, either because
they're carrying more visceral fat or they've got adhesions or they've
got other problems with the abdominal bands, some will be able to. It's
not like it isn't worth trying, even if it isn't likely.

But if I were a fitness model and had a c-section I'd figure it was time
to hang up the bikini.

Dally

Proton Soup
July 23rd 04, 04:10 PM
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:13:23 -0500, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Lucas Buck wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:30:19 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>
>
>>>Poor showing, Buck-Boy. You can do WAY better than that. That was just
>>>meanness without any particular style or wit. No decent word play,
>>>either. If you're going to bother to insult me I want to see you make
>>>your best effort.
>>
>>
>> I wasn't insulting you. I was theorizing that Lyle had insulted you.
>
>You will know when Lyle is insulting you.
>Subtlety is rarely my mode or modus.

::contemplating the subtle difference between mode and modus::

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

shumway
July 23rd 04, 04:13 PM
Dally wrote:

> shumway wrote:
>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>
>>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>>anything that can be done.
>>
>> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>> (permanent) damage is done during a C-Section and whether it is likely
>> for a woman to regain her flat stomach post C-section?
>
> Did you read Elzi's post? Or any of mine, for that matter? Surgical
> solutions exist.

Yes, but I was asking for Lyle's expertise.

Elzi's post seemed to be his own hypothesis and your's seemed to be just one
persons experience.

>
> But I object to the term "likely".

You object to statistics, and general observations?

> Don't you think it's a bit
> individual?

Yes.

> Even if 90% of the women can't do it, either because
> they're carrying more visceral fat or they've got adhesions or they've
> got other problems with the abdominal bands, some will be able to. It's
> not like it isn't worth trying, even if it isn't likely.
>

I agree, but it is still worthwhile knowing. Would I get the same reaction
if I had asked if it was likely that I be able to regain 80% of a bench max
after rotator cuff surgery?

> But if I were a fitness model and had a c-section I'd figure it was time
> to hang up the bikini.
>
> Dally

billydee
July 23rd 04, 04:35 PM
"Steve Freides" > wrote in message >...
> "billydee" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Proton Soup > wrote in message
> >...
> > > On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article >, Proton
> Soup wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600, (Keith
> Hobman)
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind of
> round,
> > > >>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I feel
> that it
> > > >>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but
> partly it
> > > >>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any specific
> > > >>>> exercises to address this second issue.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these area,
> but
> > > >>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place your
> wife can
> > > >>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and will
> take some
> > > >>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue as
> well.
> > > >>
> > > >> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the last
> thing
> > > >> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't
> feeling
> > > >> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing. Her
> belly
> > > >> may never snap back to position, but at least you could praise
> her
> > > >> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
> > > >
> > > >She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a flat
> > > >belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife wants
> > > >hers, but I digress.
> > > >
> > > >There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
> > > >fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help, she
> is
> > > >aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to her.
> > >
> > > Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's better
> to
> > > have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve some
> of
> > > them and have something to feel good about.
> > >
> > > -----------
> > > Proton Soup
> > >
> > > "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."
> >
> > I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with both--including
> > one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
> > quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in the
> > physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you can
> > likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
> > determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
> > women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
> > nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little feeling
> > around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.
>
> How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with this.
> I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the C-Section,
> better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost it
> all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition than
> she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was 34
> when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com


30 for the 1st and 35 for the 2nd. Of course age has something to do
with it. An 18 year old will most likely spring back much quicker than
a 40 year old.

Jeff Finlayson
July 23rd 04, 04:54 PM
shumway wrote:
> Dally wrote:
>>shumway wrote:
>>>Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to
>>>>the mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little
>>>>to anything that can be done.
>>>
>>>Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>>>(permanent) damage is done during a C-Section and whether it is likely
>>>for a woman to regain her flat stomach post C-section?
>>
>>Did you read Elzi's post? Or any of mine, for that matter? Surgical
>>solutions exist.
>
> Yes, but I was asking for Lyle's expertise.
>
> Elzi's post seemed to be his own hypothesis and your's seemed to be
> just one persons experience.

That's same mistake I made once a few years ago. Make that
'her own hypothesis..'.

Steve Freides
July 23rd 04, 05:47 PM
"billydee" > wrote in message
om...
> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>...
> > "billydee" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Proton Soup > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > On 22 Jul 2004 17:22:46 GMT, Ignoramus20054
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >In article >, Proton
> > Soup wrote:
> > > > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:49 -0600,
(Keith
> > Hobman)
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>In article >, Ignoramus20054
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> My wife had a C section. Her lower belly is flabby and kind
of
> > round,
> > > > >>>> even if she tenses her abs it is still somewhat round. I
feel
> > that it
> > > > >>>> is partly a quantity of fat issue, addresable by diet, but
> > partly it
> > > > >>>> is a genuine muscle issue of some sort. Are there any
specific
> > > > >>>> exercises to address this second issue.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>After the pregnancy I wouldn't focus specifically on these
area,
> > but
> > > > >>>instead would try and get a general fitness program in place
your
> > wife can
> > > > >>>live with and enjoys. The muscles have been stretched and
will
> > take some
> > > > >>>time to tighten back up and of course there is the fat issue
as
> > well.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And my experience tells me that when it comes to women, the
last
> > thing
> > > > >> you want to do is focus on some body part that they aren't
> > feeling
> > > > >> good about. So I'd also vote on the general fitness thing.
Her
> > belly
> > > > >> may never snap back to position, but at least you could
praise
> > her
> > > > >> sexy tight quads and hamstrings. :)
> > > > >
> > > > >She wants this flat belly much more than I want her to have a
flat
> > > > >belly. I do want myself to make flat belly, more than my wife
wants
> > > > >hers, but I digress.
> > > > >
> > > > >There is no marital issue involved here, seriously, it is a
> > > > >fitness/sports issue. She wants flat belly, I am there to help,
she
> > is
> > > > >aware that her flat belly is not an issue for my attraction to
her.
> > > >
> > > > Still, that's not the issue. It may never be flat, so it's
better
> > to
> > > > have a wider variety of goals so that she'll at least achieve
some
> > of
> > > > them and have something to feel good about.
> > > >
> > > > -----------
> > > > Proton Soup
> > > >
> > > > "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."
> > >
> > > I have 2 kids--3 and 9. My wife has C sections with
both--including
> > > one emergency procedure for the last one. She bounced back pretty
> > > quickly and has pretty close to a 6 pack now. Granted she is in
the
> > > physical fitness industry so that might give her an edge, but you
can
> > > likely come back from a C-section. It just takes some work and
> > > determination. While some may have permanent damage, I think some
> > > women just use it as an excuse to stay fat. She does have a rather
> > > nasty scar from the emergency procedure that she has little
feeling
> > > around, but the muscles have all healed pretty well.
> >
> > How old is your wife? My theory is that age has a lot to do with
this.
> > I know my wife's experience with child #1 was, except for the
C-Section,
> > better in every way - she gained less weight during pregnancy, lost
it
> > all more quickly, and returned to overall better, leaner condition
than
> > she did after child #2 which was more than 4 years later. She was
34
> > when she had our first and 39 when she had our second.
> >
> > -S-
> > http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
> 30 for the 1st and 35 for the 2nd. Of course age has something to do
> with it. An 18 year old will most likely spring back much quicker than
> a 40 year old.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of age plus how many kids you've had -
the fewer kids and the younger you are when you have them, the faster
you return to good shape.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

elzinator
July 24th 04, 09:22 PM
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:13:56 GMT, shumway wrote:
>Dally wrote:
>
>> shumway wrote:
>>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>>>anything that can be done.
>>>
>>> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>>> (permanent) damage is done during a C-Section and whether it is likely
>>> for a woman to regain her flat stomach post C-section?
>>
>> Did you read Elzi's post? Or any of mine, for that matter? Surgical
>> solutions exist.
>
>Yes, but I was asking for Lyle's expertise.
>
>Elzi's post seemed to be his own hypothesis and your's seemed to be just one
>persons experience.

Um, I'm a 'she.'
If you reread my post, you may notice that I talked to a surgeon about
this, so it is not my "own hypothesis."

I also worked with 2 other women with the same issues (C-section) and
another who had multiple abdominal surgery (whom I worked with
post-surgery).

So the issues are surgical cutting of the abdominal tissues and
subsequent adhesions and hormonal changes post-partum. Thus, a
combination of time, diet, exercise and rehab may reduce the
propensity for long-term abdominal malformation.


-------------------------

When you accept death, you find the strength to fight and survive.
"The only shame in dying incorrectly is to die a stupid and meaningless death."
- Miyamoto Musashi

Lyle McDonald
July 26th 04, 02:22 AM
shumway wrote:

> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
>
>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>anything that can be done.
>>
>
>
> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
> (permanent) damage is done during

Go get a big knife.
Cut your biceps in half.
Sew it back together.
report back.

Lyle

David Cohen
July 26th 04, 02:46 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote
> shumway wrote:
> > Lyle McDonald wrote:
> >>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition
to the
> >>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little
to
> >>anything that can be done.
> >
> > Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of
how much
> > (permanent) damage is done during
>
> Go get a big knife.
> Cut your biceps in half.
> Sew it back together.
> report back.

However...

If the obstetrician is very careful, cuts with the grain, makes the
incision as small as possible, and sews things up really skillfully,
the permanent damage can be greatly minimized.

David

elzinator
July 26th 04, 02:51 AM
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:46:27 GMT, David Cohen wrote:
>
>"Lyle McDonald" > wrote
>> shumway wrote:
>> > Lyle McDonald wrote:
>> >>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition
>to the
>> >>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little
>to
>> >>anything that can be done.
>> >
>> > Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of
>how much
>> > (permanent) damage is done during
>>
>> Go get a big knife.
>> Cut your biceps in half.
>> Sew it back together.
>> report back.
>
>However...
>
>If the obstetrician is very careful, cuts with the grain, makes the
>incision as small as possible, and sews things up really skillfully,
>the permanent damage can be greatly minimized.

"If" is the operative word. The C-sections that are performed here at
one of the U hospitals (the county hospital) were described to me last
Friday as "Slash-and-Pulls".


Beelzibub

The human in us owes fealty to humanity. But the wolf in us acknowledges no master.

David Cohen
July 26th 04, 02:59 AM
"elzinator" > wrote
> David Cohen wrote:
> >"Lyle McDonald" > wrote
> >> shumway wrote:
> >> > Lyle McDonald wrote:
> >> >>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in
addition
> >to the
> >> >>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is
little
> >to
> >> >>anything that can be done.
> >> >
> >> > Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea
of
> >how much
> >> > (permanent) damage is done during
> >>
> >> Go get a big knife.
> >> Cut your biceps in half.
> >> Sew it back together.
> >> report back.
> >
> >However...
> >
> >If the obstetrician is very careful, cuts with the grain, makes the
> >incision as small as possible, and sews things up really
skillfully,
> >the permanent damage can be greatly minimized.
>
> "If" is the operative word.

No. I have been in many surgeries. Operative words are "scalpel",
"suction", "retractor" and "oops".

> The C-sections that are performed here at
> one of the U hospitals (the county hospital) were described to me
last
> Friday as "Slash-and-Pulls".

Eeewwww. Pick your ob surgeons better!

David

Lucas Buck
July 26th 04, 04:45 AM
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:46:27 GMT, "David Cohen" > wrote:

>
>"Lyle McDonald" > wrote
>> shumway wrote:
>> > Lyle McDonald wrote:
>> >>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition
>to the
>> >>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little
>to
>> >>anything that can be done.
>> >
>> > Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of
>how much
>> > (permanent) damage is done during
>>
>> Go get a big knife.
>> Cut your biceps in half.
>> Sew it back together.
>> report back.
>
>However...
>
>If the obstetrician is very careful, cuts with the grain, makes the
>incision as small as possible, and sews things up really skillfully,
>the permanent damage can be greatly minimized.
>
>David

I think that if an Ob-Gyn is cutting up biceps, he's not very careful
by definition.

No Frills
July 26th 04, 08:44 AM
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:22:51 -0500, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>shumway wrote:
>
>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>>anything that can be done.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>> (permanent) damage is done during
>
>Go get a big knife.
>Cut your biceps in half.
>Sew it back together.
>report back.
>
>Lyle

I'm bleeding quite badly, and I'm feeling a little dizzy.

What do I do now?

Helgi Briem
July 26th 04, 09:21 AM
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:44:46 GMT, No Frills > wrote:

>>> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>>> (permanent) damage is done during
>>
>>Go get a big knife.
>>Cut your biceps in half.
>>Sew it back together.
>>report back.

>I'm bleeding quite badly, and I'm feeling a little dizzy.
>What do I do now?

<golf clap>

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

shumway
July 27th 04, 02:15 PM
elzinator wrote:


>>> shumway wrote:

>>Elzi's post seemed to be his own hypothesis and your's seemed to be just
>>one persons experience.
>
> Um, I'm a 'she.'
> If you reread my post, you may notice that I talked to a surgeon about
> this, so it is not my "own hypothesis."
>

Pardon, correcting for gender and omission. I should have said hers and one
others hypothesis.

shumway
July 27th 04, 02:26 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> shumway wrote:
>
>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The muscles were physically CUT during the C-section in addition to the
>>>mondo amount of stretching from the pregnancy. There is little to
>>>anything that can be done.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Glad you jumped into this thread, Lyle. Do you have any idea of how much
>> (permanent) damage is done during
>
> Go get a big knife.
> Cut your biceps in half.
> Sew it back together.
> report back.
>
> Lyle

I guess that is my question, how well do muscles heal after that kind of
trauma. Ken Norten played for Dallas with a "torn" bicep one season (I do
not know what that means medically, I suppose that does not mean torn all
the way through).

So anyway, would a typical cesearian result in a loss of 80% muscle
strength, 50%, or 20%? Would a woman be unable to have a "flat" belly, or
just be unable to have a belly that looks like Corey Everson's?

Lucas Buck
July 29th 04, 09:25 AM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:24:23 -0400, Dally > wrote:

>Steve Freides wrote:
>
>> My wife had a C-section for our first child, now almost 12 years ago,
>> and she's still well aware of it. She says it doesn't really change her
>> exercise program, it just hurts there more than it otherwise would
>> sometimes and she feels it's weaker there than it otherwise would be as
>> well, but it doesn't stop her from doing anything.
>
>This is seriously off-topic for this group, but I was in a conversation
>with a friend of mine about scheduled C-sections. We'd both had an
>unplanned c-section for our first kids and multiple VBACs afterwards and
>both WAY prefer the VBACs. You can walk away from a normal birth! I
>made dinner after giving birth to my third child.

That was YOU in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life?

Dally
July 29th 04, 03:08 PM
shumway wrote:

> So anyway, would a typical cesearian result in a loss of 80% muscle
> strength, 50%, or 20%?

Yes. Or maybe not.

> Would a woman be unable to have a "flat" belly, or
> just be unable to have a belly that looks like Corey Everson's?

Yes. Probably.

HTH

Dally, not that I know more about c-sections than Lyle...