World Championships

[Larry Weisenthal]

Open Water races are ongoing. Pool races start this weekend:

http://www.usaswimming.org/events/FWC_Schedule.htm

I am so unhappy that FINA tried to get the 10K Open water into the Olympics
ALONG WITH the 50 breast, 50 back, 50 fly. If they had just tried for the 10K
by itself, I'll bet that the IOC would have agreed. But without Open Water
being in the Olympics, it will always be a neglected stepchild.

On the USA Swimming website, they are having a poll to vote for the "most
anticipated" race of the meet.

I voted for Phelps vs Thorpe in the 200 IM.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Steve Curtis]

Is any of this competition going to be televised?

Steve Curtis

[Larry Weisenthal]

>> Is any of this competition going to be televised?<<

Two hours per day, on ESPN and ESPN2.

Currently ongoing are the diving, water polo, and synchro swimming. I presume
that the first swimming competitions will be televised Monday.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Steve Curtis]

Besides Phelps and Thorpe, who are some of the other big names at
this meet? Is Popov competing?

Steve Curtis

[Mark P]

Steve Curtis wrote:

> Besides Phelps and Thorpe, who are some of the other big names at
> this meet? Is Popov competing?
>
> Steve Curtis
>

Natalie Coughlin is there.

[Dave Coleman]

Results are live on Omega's website:

http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/barcelona2003/bcn2003_by_events.htm

has the results and:

http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/Java/index.htm

has a nifty little java program to see live timing results.

enjoy!

Dave Coleman

[Helen Manont]

THE AUSSIES ARE GONNA WIN

"Larry Weisenthal" > wrote in message
...
> >> Is any of this competition going to be televised?<<
>
> Two hours per day, on ESPN and ESPN2.
>
> Currently ongoing are the diving, water polo, and synchro swimming. I
presume
> that the first swimming competitions will be televised Monday.
>
> Larry Weisenthal
>
> Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Mark P]

Dave Coleman wrote:
> Results are live on Omega's website:
>
> http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/barcelona2003/bcn2003_by_events.htm
>
> has the results and:
>
> http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/Java/index.htm
>
> has a nifty little java program to see live timing results.
>
> enjoy!
>
> Dave Coleman

Thanks for the links. Looking at the results sheets, what are "R.T."
and "Points" in the headings?

[Mike Edey]

Awww man - there are few days I miss having a tv :(. I wonder if the CBC is
carrying anything worth watching.

--Mike

"Larry Weisenthal" > wrote in message
...
> I hope that everyone interested in the World Championships living in the
USA is
> watching ESPN's coverage. It is of outstanding quality. They are
showing
> nearly all of the important races in good detail, with lots of underwater
shots
> -- wonderful grist for those of us who love to argue about such things.
Few
> commercials, even. Much better than the typical NBC Olympic coverage
which we
> must endure.
>
> Here are the FINA sites for the results:
>
> http://www.fina.org/bcn03_scheduleswimming.html
>
> And for the (already completed) open water:
>
> http://www.fina.org/bcn03_OWSschedule.html
>
> Russia over the USA men in the 4 x 100. Popov in good form. USA women
win a
> thriller in their 4 x 100. Still looking forward to Phelps v Thorpe in
the 200
> IM.
>
> Larry Weisenthal
>
> Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Steve Curtis]

Hey, congrats to Lindsay Benko, Natalie Coughlin, Rhi Jeffrey, and
Jenny Thompson for getting the gold in the women's 4x100. Especially to
Jenny for her fastest relay split which is noteworthy for someone still
competing at this level of intensity at an age (30) that is the
"twilight" for most elite competitive swimming careers.

Steve Curtis

[Larry Weisenthal]

>> Hey, congrats to Lindsay Benko, Natalie Coughlin, Rhi Jeffrey, and
Jenny Thompson for getting the gold in the women's 4x100. Especially to
Jenny for her fastest relay split which is noteworthy for someone still
competing at this level of intensity at an age (30) that is the
"twilight" for most elite competitive swimming careers.<<

Jenny also got the individual gold in the 100 fly. Not bad for a full time
medical student of any age.

Swimmer of the meet so far, though, is Japan's Kitajima (WR 100 Breast).
Biggest American disappointment so far is Moses (4th in the same event).
Shaping up to be a great meet; anticipated expectations of US dominance may
prove to have been somewhat overinflated. (e.g. 2nd place to Russia in the 4 x
100 free + Coughlin's unfortunate illness).


Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Colin Priest]

Larry,

Are you suggesting that the USA has so little depth that it relies on
Natalie Coughlin for dominance?

Colin

"Larry Weisenthal" > wrote in message
...
> >> Hey, congrats to Lindsay Benko, Natalie Coughlin, Rhi Jeffrey, and
> Jenny Thompson for getting the gold in the women's 4x100. Especially to
> Jenny for her fastest relay split which is noteworthy for someone still
> competing at this level of intensity at an age (30) that is the
> "twilight" for most elite competitive swimming careers.<<
>
> Jenny also got the individual gold in the 100 fly. Not bad for a full
time
> medical student of any age.
>
> Swimmer of the meet so far, though, is Japan's Kitajima (WR 100 Breast).
> Biggest American disappointment so far is Moses (4th in the same event).
> Shaping up to be a great meet; anticipated expectations of US dominance
may
> prove to have been somewhat overinflated. (e.g. 2nd place to Russia in the
4 x
> 100 free + Coughlin's unfortunate illness).
>
>
> Larry Weisenthal
>
> Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Larry Weisenthal]

>>Are you suggesting that the USA has so little depth that it relies on
Natalie Coughlin for dominance?

>>Colin

Ah, the return of my Aussie nemesis!

A noted Colin Priestism (debating me when Australia claimed a dubious World
Championship 7 months after the Sydney Olympics, when most of the top Americans
didn't bother to show for this anti-climactic event):

>>I'd also like to know who is it that didn't turn up to the World
Championships because it wasn't important enough? I can only name
Krayzelburg off the top of my head, but perhaps the US participants of the
newsgroup can suggest some others. Please don't bother including retirees
e.g. Jenny Thompson. <<

This particular "retiree" is not doing all that badly, is she?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Dave Coleman]

> Thanks for the links. Looking at the results sheets, what are "R.T."
> and "Points" in the headings?

R.T. is "Reaction Time." Off of starts, it's the time from the beep
to the feet leaving the blocks. Off of relay transitions, it's the
time from the touch to the feet leaving the blocks.

"Points" refers to the International Point System. It was developed,
I believe, by swimnews.com to normalize comparisons between races of
different lengths, strokes, courses, genders. It's used to score the
World Cup meets.

The scale is 0-1100, 1000 is normally pretty close to the world
record, and the times you see at WCs will generally be in the 900-1050
range. It's a fun toy to play with because it covers everyone from
fitness swimmers up. My best is a 712 for my 200y backstroke :).

See here:
http://test.swimnews.com/Ranking/ips.jhtml

Dave

[Jill]

(Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message >...
> Here are the FINA sites for the results:
>
> http://www.fina.org/bcn03_scheduleswimming.html
>
> And for the (already completed) open water:
>
> http://www.fina.org/bcn03_OWSschedule.html
>

Note that after some serious problems with the Seiko timing system in
Japan that FINA never fully publicly acknowledged, they've quitely
went back to using Omega Timing systems for this world championships.

[Colin Priest]

I was just noting your change in approach regarding depth of talent now that
the shoe is on the other foot. Will you also be avoiding complaining about
"too many world championships" this time? Thompson did not turn up last time
because she was retired, not because of your implication that a world
championships was unimportant. She's no longer retired, so she turned up.
It's just more evidence that you were wrong about the relative importance of
the world championships.

Like you I'm looking forward to the men's 200IM even though I expect Phelps
to beat Thorpe in that event. I'm interested to see how much Thorpe has
improved in that new event for him. I wouldn't be surprised if Phelps breaks
his own world record, and if Thorpe trails 2 seconds behind him, with his
first sub 2 minute result.

Colin

"Larry Weisenthal" > wrote in message
...
> >>Are you suggesting that the USA has so little depth that it relies on
> Natalie Coughlin for dominance?
>
> >>Colin
>
> Ah, the return of my Aussie nemesis!
>
> A noted Colin Priestism (debating me when Australia claimed a dubious
World
> Championship 7 months after the Sydney Olympics, when most of the top
Americans
> didn't bother to show for this anti-climactic event):
>
> >>I'd also like to know who is it that didn't turn up to the World
> Championships because it wasn't important enough? I can only name
> Krayzelburg off the top of my head, but perhaps the US participants of the
> newsgroup can suggest some others. Please don't bother including retirees
> e.g. Jenny Thompson. <<
>
> This particular "retiree" is not doing all that badly, is she?
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> Larry Weisenthal
>
> Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[DrClean]

"Dave Coleman" > wrote in message
m...
> > Thanks for the links. Looking at the results sheets, what are "R.T."
> > and "Points" in the headings?
>
> R.T. is "Reaction Time." Off of starts, it's the time from the beep
> to the feet leaving the blocks. Off of relay transitions, it's the
> time from the touch to the feet leaving the blocks.
>
> "Points" refers to the International Point System. It was developed,
> I believe, by swimnews.com to normalize comparisons between races of
> different lengths, strokes, courses, genders. It's used to score the
> World Cup meets.

Just out of interest on this, I assume it's the same as BAGPOINTS, which
swimmers in the UK score in age group county champs. A BAGPOINT calculator
is available from www.britishswiming.org I believe so it might be useful to
take a peak.
--
DrClean
www.DrClean.co.uk
The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

[alexandria]

I tend to take larry weisenthal's words on elite swimming/swimmers
with a pinch of salt.

After all, his insights on elite swimmers forced him to declare in
late 2000 and early 2001 that Vd Hoogenband was the greatest
freestyler EVER. Yup, that was just few months before Vd Hoogenband
got embarrassingly stomped by both Thorpe and Earvin in Fukuoka.

Weisenthal is also the one who incessantly mentioned how Thorpe big
feet helped him more than his swimming skills. Wonder if Weisenthal is
going to mention anything about Michael Phelps, who has size 15 feet
AND arm span that is few inches longer than his height (not unlike
Michael Gross) ? Well of course NOT, because Phelps happens to be from
the USA.


Alexandria


"Colin Priest" > wrote in message >...
> I was just noting your change in approach regarding depth of talent now that
> the shoe is on the other foot. Will you also be avoiding complaining about
> "too many world championships" this time? Thompson did not turn up last time
> because she was retired, not because of your implication that a world
> championships was unimportant. She's no longer retired, so she turned up.
> It's just more evidence that you were wrong about the relative importance of
> the world championships.
>
> Like you I'm looking forward to the men's 200IM even though I expect Phelps
> to beat Thorpe in that event. I'm interested to see how much Thorpe has
> improved in that new event for him. I wouldn't be surprised if Phelps breaks
> his own world record, and if Thorpe trails 2 seconds behind him, with his
> first sub 2 minute result.
>
> Colin
>
> "Larry Weisenthal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >>Are you suggesting that the USA has so little depth that it relies on
> > Natalie Coughlin for dominance?
> >
> > >>Colin
> >
> > Ah, the return of my Aussie nemesis!
> >
> > A noted Colin Priestism (debating me when Australia claimed a dubious
> World
> > Championship 7 months after the Sydney Olympics, when most of the top
> Americans
> > didn't bother to show for this anti-climactic event):
> >
> > >>I'd also like to know who is it that didn't turn up to the World
> > Championships because it wasn't important enough? I can only name
> > Krayzelburg off the top of my head, but perhaps the US participants of the
> > newsgroup can suggest some others. Please don't bother including retirees
> > e.g. Jenny Thompson. <<
> >
> > This particular "retiree" is not doing all that badly, is she?
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> >
> > Larry Weisenthal
> >
> > Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[d]

(alexandria) wrote in message >...
> I tend to take larry weisenthal's words on elite swimming/swimmers
> with a pinch of salt.
>
> After all, his insights on elite swimmers forced him to declare in
> late 2000 and early 2001 that Vd Hoogenband was the greatest
> freestyler EVER. Yup, that was just few months before Vd Hoogenband
> got embarrassingly stomped by both Thorpe and Earvin in Fukuoka.
>
>
> Alexandria
>
>

And who owns the world record in the mens 100m free?

[Mike Edey]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:21:59 -0700, d wrote:

> (alexandria) wrote in message >...
>> I tend to take larry weisenthal's words on elite swimming/swimmers
>> with a pinch of salt.
>>
>> After all, his insights on elite swimmers forced him to declare in
>> late 2000 and early 2001 that Vd Hoogenband was the greatest
>> freestyler EVER. Yup, that was just few months before Vd Hoogenband
>> got embarrassingly stomped by both Thorpe and Earvin in Fukuoka.
>>
>>
>> Alexandria
>>
>>
>
> And who owns the world record in the mens 100m free?

And how many people here don't have arm spans that exceed their height?

--Mike

[Larry Weisenthal]

From Colin Priest:

>>I was just noting your change in approach regarding depth of talent now that
the shoe is on the other foot. Will you also be avoiding complaining about
"too many world championships" this time? Thompson did not turn up last time
because she was retired, not because of your implication that a world
championships was unimportant. She's no longer retired, so she turned up.
It's just more evidence that you were wrong about the relative importance of
the world championships.<<

I think that the World Championships are NEVER important for determining
bragging rights as "World's Greatest Swim Team." The only swim meet that
properly determines that is the Olympics.

The prior WCs, held 7 months after the Olympics (and at the same time as the
NCAA championships) were not attended by the USA's best possible team. Neither
was the "Duel in the Pool" any sort of a test of the relative strenght of the
teams. The pre-Olympic World's do attract a better US team than the
post-Olympic worlds. Many US swimmers have taken long breaks after the
Olympics (e.g. Thompson), only to come back in a year or so and to begin the
build to the next Olympics. That's what's happening now.

The importance of the WC's is just as a very good swim meet with lots of great
individual performances and a few wonderful match-ups (e.g. Thorpe vs vdH in
the 200, Phelps v Thorpe in the 200 IM).

I am of the opinion that the issue of "World's Greatest Swimmer" (as opposed to
world's greatest swim team) will be a lively topic for discussion following the
conclusion of this particular swim meet.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Larry Weisenthal]

>>I tend to take larry weisenthal's words on elite swimming/swimmers
with a pinch of salt.

>>After all, his insights on elite swimmers forced him to declare in
late 2000 and early 2001 that Vd Hoogenband was the greatest
freestyler EVER. Yup, that was just few months before Vd Hoogenband
got embarrassingly stomped by both Thorpe and Earvin in Fukuoka.<<

Just like the term "World's Fastest Human" tends to be awarded to the fastest
person in the 100 meter dash, the traditional "world's fastest swimmer" has
been the world record holder (and Olympic Champion) in the 100 freestyle, both
of whom happen to be Hoogie. The 50 free is not a great test of the world's
fastest swimmer, since the start and the dive play a disproportionate role
(just personal opinion).

>>Weisenthal is also the one who incessantly mentioned how Thorpe big
feet helped him more than his swimming skills. Wonder if Weisenthal is
going to mention anything about Michael Phelps, who has size 15 feet
AND arm span that is few inches longer than his height (not unlike
Michael Gross) ? Well of course NOT, because Phelps happens to be from
the USA.<<

I never said that Thorpe's feet helped him MORE than his "swimming skills."
Afterall, his feet are an integral part of his swimming skills. I have written
tons about Thorpe's other swimming skills - most recently about his superior
body position in the water.

I don't have anything at all against big feet on a swimmer, or big hands on a
baseball catcher or basketball player. They all go into making the athlete
what he/she is.

If I "incessantly" discussed Thorpe's feet, it was in no way to be insulting or
perjorative. Rather, I've mainly brought up Thorpe's feet in the context of
Thorpe's kick,which is what makes his "long forward" style of swimming so
effective. Whenever someone brings up Thorpe in the context of what type of
freestyle stroke we elderly swimmers should be striving to achieve, I simply
say that in order to swim like Thorpe, you've got to be able to kick like
Thorpe.


Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Mike Edey]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:23:12 +0000, Larry Weisenthal wrote:

> From Colin Priest:

<snip>

> I think that the World Championships are NEVER important for determining
> bragging rights as "World's Greatest Swim Team." The only swim meet that
> properly determines that is the Olympics.
>
> The prior WCs, held 7 months after the Olympics (and at the same time as
> the NCAA championships) were not attended by the USA's best possible
> team. Neither was the "Duel in the Pool" any sort of a test of the
> relative strenght of the teams. The pre-Olympic World's do attract a
> better US team than the post-Olympic worlds. Many US swimmers have
> taken long breaks after the Olympics (e.g. Thompson), only to come back
> in a year or so and to begin the build to the next Olympics. That's
> what's happening now.
>
> The importance of the WC's is just as a very good swim meet with lots of
> great individual performances and a few wonderful match-ups (e.g. Thorpe
> vs vdH in the 200, Phelps v Thorpe in the 200 IM).
>
> I am of the opinion that the issue of "World's Greatest Swimmer" (as
> opposed to world's greatest swim team) will be a lively topic for
> discussion following the conclusion of this particular swim meet.
>
> Larry Weisenthal
>
> Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

I have to agree, to an extent. The Big 'O is simply a much more important
event as far as politics & funding go. World champs will never compete in
that regard leaving the Olympics as the defacto 'best team' venue. For
best swimmer, though, you gotta put em up; don't play, can't win.

--Mike

[Steve Curtis]

One of the things that has really been impressive with the televised
coverage of the World's is the underwater camera work. They've shown
some great underwater shots with interesting angles and zooms on
individual swimmers like Thorpe, Phelps, Kitajima, et al.

Steve Curtis

[Steve Curtis]

The graphics and the World Record (WR) bar are a nice touch too. A
very classy production.

Steve Curtis

[alexandria]

(d) wrote in message >
> And who owns the world record in the mens 100m free?

Breaking 100 free WR *ONCE* and never won world championships in *ANY*
freestyle event in *three* attempts does NOT make one "The world's
greatest freestyler EVER"

Oops.. juts saw VdH got stomped once again by Popov in the final.

Go Popov !

[alexandria]

"Mike Edey" > wrote in message >...

> And how many people here don't have arm spans that exceed their height?
>
> --Mike


Ask Larry Weisenthal. He should know, as he is usually preoccupied
with swimmers' physical traits.

[Chris]

(Steve Curtis) wrote in message >...
> One of the things that has really been impressive with the televised
> coverage of the World's is the underwater camera work. They've shown
> some great underwater shots with interesting angles and zooms on
> individual swimmers like Thorpe, Phelps, Kitajima, et al.

Yes, it's been really impressive. I'd like to see a DVD with all the alternate
angles and the like. I suspect that a directory is in effect editing this stuff
in real time, and the stuff that is not shown may be discarded.

[William A. T. Clark]

In article >,
(Chris) wrote:

> (Steve Curtis) wrote in message
> >...
> > One of the things that has really been impressive with the televised
> > coverage of the World's is the underwater camera work. They've shown
> > some great underwater shots with interesting angles and zooms on
> > individual swimmers like Thorpe, Phelps, Kitajima, et al.
>
> Yes, it's been really impressive. I'd like to see a DVD with all the
> alternate
> angles and the like. I suspect that a directory is in effect editing this
> stuff
> in real time, and the stuff that is not shown may be discarded

One thing that interested me about the underwater shots was to see the
amount of air clinging to Thorpe's body suit. Amazing, it makes you
think that the buoyancy arguments indeed make sense.

William Clark

[Larry Weisenthal]

From: (alexandria)

Quoting Mike:

> And how many people here don't have arm spans that exceed their height?
>
> --Mike

Alexandria charges:

>>Ask Larry Weisenthal. He should know, as he is usually preoccupied
with swimmers' physical traits.<<

Common, Alexandria. At least be accurate in your charges. What I am
"preoccupied" with is the technical style of swimmers. I have only (and
rarely) brought up physical traits as they apply to the technical styles of
swimmers.

For example, fitness swimmers and triathletes with inflexible ankles will
probably never develop into proficient kickers. Thus, these swimmers need to
learn to swim with a style used by poor kickers, which is typically a shorter,
higher cadence stroke.

Athletes wth great kicks (Thorpe included) are better served with a longer,
lower cadence stroke. That's about it. I don't recall ever mentioning
anything about armspans or arm/trunk ratios or anything like that.

To what on earth are you referrring?

Are you, perhaps, a person with a weight problem who was offended by my
occasional tirades against the growing fattening of the Western world? Or
what?


Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[Larry Weisenthal]

Wonderful commentary from Phil Whitten on swiminfo.com (referring to Phelps
oblitering two world records in two different events about one hour apart):


>> Phelps has been so utterly awesome here that word is he will undergo
unprecedented testing: not for drugs, but for gills! <<


Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life