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Mark
September 15th 04, 11:23 PM
Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
testosterone at this time.

I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?

Thanks,

Mark

DHW
September 16th 04, 01:18 AM
On 15 Sep 2004 15:23:30 -0700, (Mark) wrote:

>Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
>and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
>my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
>guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
>testosterone at this time.
>
>I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
> I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
>levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
>agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
>testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mark

Mark,

You might want to head over to alt.support.impotence and ask some
questions there. You could also Google that group for some of the
archived articles.

I found I had low Testosterone when I was a few months shy of 41. My T
was well under 300 (about 140 on a scale of 300 to 1000). My primary
care physician started me on Androgel (testosterone replacement
therapy -- a topical gel) which, I must admit, did little good.

I don't know what bloodwork you've had, but, if it was just
Testosterone (as mine was originally) there is probabably more you'll
want to have done.

My doctor was reluctant to do any of the additional bloodwork I asked
for -- and I asked gently, I didn't demand. However, based on the
results of that bloodwork he suggested I see an endocronologist. I see
my endo every several months now for follow-up treatment. And my
hormones are less out-of-whack now than they've been in several years.

Before you start treating yourself you should really find out what is
causing your low testosterone.

Testosterone replacement therapy would never have worked for me -- I
have a couple of tumors on my pituitary gland that cause my Prolactin
to be high, and therefore, my T to be low.

Good luck.




D. Wells


Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004"
(without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

Will Brink
September 16th 04, 02:12 PM
In article >,
(Mark) wrote:

> Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
> and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
> my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
> guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
> testosterone at this time.

See: http://www.brinkzone.com/itsinyourblood.html

That will get you headed in the right direction.\

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Mark
September 17th 04, 12:29 AM
I would like to thank the two responses for giving me some helpful
information. I don't have more specifics since I really did not know
that much other than the one number (300) which is on the low normal
side, but really quite low for my age.

I did check out the links. Thanks again. There is just sooo much
information to process when looking at the bodybuilding sites for
information on hormones.

Robert Schuh
September 17th 04, 06:51 AM
Mark wrote:

> Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
> and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
> my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
> guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
> testosterone at this time.
>
> I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
> I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
> levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
> agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
> testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark

Mark,
Find a new MD. Testosterone replacement is VERY common these days. All the
over the counter stuff is pure unadulterated bull****. 200 mg every other
week of Testosterone Enanthate or Cypionate will make a big difference in
your life.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

Robert Schuh
September 17th 04, 06:56 AM
DHW wrote:

> On 15 Sep 2004 15:23:30 -0700, (Mark) wrote:
>
> >Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
> >and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
> >my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
> >guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
> >testosterone at this time.
> >
> >I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
> > I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
> >levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
> >agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
> >testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Mark
>
> Mark,
>
> You might want to head over to alt.support.impotence and ask some
> questions there. You could also Google that group for some of the
> archived articles.
>
> I found I had low Testosterone when I was a few months shy of 41. My T
> was well under 300 (about 140 on a scale of 300 to 1000). My primary
> care physician started me on Androgel (testosterone replacement
> therapy -- a topical gel) which, I must admit, did little good.
>
> I don't know what bloodwork you've had, but, if it was just
> Testosterone (as mine was originally) there is probabably more you'll
> want to have done.
>
> My doctor was reluctant to do any of the additional bloodwork I asked
> for -- and I asked gently, I didn't demand. However, based on the
> results of that bloodwork he suggested I see an endocronologist. I see
> my endo every several months now for follow-up treatment. And my
> hormones are less out-of-whack now than they've been in several years.
>
> Before you start treating yourself you should really find out what is
> causing your low testosterone.
>
> Testosterone replacement therapy would never have worked for me -- I
> have a couple of tumors on my pituitary gland that cause my Prolactin
> to be high, and therefore, my T to be low.
>
> Good luck.
>
> D. Wells
>
>
> Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004"
> (without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

I am curious as to why you think real Testosterone replacement would not
have worked for you? The gel is useless in many cases. Even with high
prolactin levels, if your Test levels came up from real replacement, i.e.
IM injections with Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate would have made a
big difference. Why you assume that he has a secondary condition is beyond
me. Most men over 40 have lower Test levels and legit replacement therapy
works wonders in most cases.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

DHW
September 17th 04, 08:05 PM
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:56:02 -0700, Robert Schuh >
wrote:

>DHW wrote:
>
>
>I am curious as to why you think real Testosterone replacement would not
>have worked for you? The gel is useless in many cases. Even with high
>prolactin levels, if your Test levels came up from real replacement, i.e.
>IM injections with Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate would have made a
>big difference. Why you assume that he has a secondary condition is beyond
>me. Most men over 40 have lower Test levels and legit replacement therapy
>works wonders in most cases.

Robert,

I was midway through a post when one of my fat fingers hit something
and my newsreader threw a fit. So, if two replies appear, one more
disjointed than the other, it's not that I'm trying to drive a point
home ... it is more a function of poor keyboarding skills.

Anyway, I guess I don't have any proof that TRT would have never
worked for me. I didn't stick with it long enough to know for sure. I
sincerely suspect it would not have worked.

However, had I continued blindly on TRT I would have never known about
the pituitary tumors. I don't know if they would have grown. And I'm
not sure how much external testosterone I'd have to take to overcome
the high prolactin. I don't know if a person can have high prolactin
and high testosterone at the same time. That is not the experience I
had.

When my doc started me on Androgel my T was about 140 (scale of 300 to
1000 being normal). While on Androgel I found alt.support.impotence,
and based on the info I read there decided to discontinue TRT until I
had more facts. The next bloodwork following my discontinuance of
Androgel was just under 40 (300 to 1000 ... and yes, that is 40). The
test may have been bad but I suspect my body had quit its own
production of T while I was on Androgel. Shortly thereafter I
rebounded to the 140 range.

>Why you assume that he has a secondary condition is beyond
>me. Most men over 40 have lower Test levels and legit replacement therapy
>works wonders in most cases.

Because I have a secondary condition. A condition I'd never heard of
until it happened to me. I was so certain that I was normal that I
mentioned I had low libido to my doctor as an afterthought when he
asked if I had any other problems. And really, it wasn't a problem for
me ... my wife told me it was a problem. (I didn't realize I had
depression or ED until after those problems got better ... I'm not
always terribly self-aware.)

Most men over 40 do have lower testosterone levels. But not levels in
the 300 range.

According to this chart my T (and Mark's) should be closer to 670.
http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/hormone_charts.htm


I am not knocking Testosterone Replacement Therapy. However I don't
think a person should jump into it until he knows why he has low T.

I've been taking Dostinex for a while now and my bloodwork is getting
progressively better. While I'll be glad to go back to TRT if needed,
why would I want to if I can get my hormones back in order another
way.

(It is really hard to try to make the claim that my way is a more
'natural' way. I'm substituting Dostinex for TRT after all. But this
is the route I would prefer to take.)
D. Wells


Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004"
(without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

DHW
September 17th 04, 08:08 PM
On 15 Sep 2004 15:23:30 -0700, (Mark) wrote:

>Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
>and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
>my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
>guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
>testosterone at this time.
>
>I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
> I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
>levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
>agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
>testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mark
Mark,

Pick up a copy of "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen.
Amazon has it. It's very good and a fairly easy read. I should have
mentioned it in my first reply.

I mentioned other bloodwork I had in that first reply. That bloodwork
was:

SHBG
FSH
Testosterone
Estradiol
Prolactin
TSH
LH
Free T
Total Estrogens
DHEA

I do not remember what they are all indicators of. An endo will and
Googling the group alt.support.impotence will turn up answers. (My
focus has been prolactin and the testosterones these past 3 years.)
D. Wells


Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004"
(without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

Robert Schuh
September 19th 04, 04:29 AM
DHW wrote:

> On 15 Sep 2004 15:23:30 -0700, (Mark) wrote:
>
> >Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low libido
> >and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found out
> >my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
> >guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
> >testosterone at this time.
> >
> >I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant postings.
> > I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost T
> >levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
> >agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
> >testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Mark
> Mark,
>
> Pick up a copy of "The Testosterone Syndrome" by Dr. Eugene Shippen.
> Amazon has it. It's very good and a fairly easy read. I should have
> mentioned it in my first reply.
>
> I mentioned other bloodwork I had in that first reply. That bloodwork
> was:
>
> SHBG
> FSH
> Testosterone
> Estradiol
> Prolactin
> TSH
> LH
> Free T
> Total Estrogens
> DHEA
>
> I do not remember what they are all indicators of. An endo will and
> Googling the group alt.support.impotence will turn up answers. (My
> focus has been prolactin and the testosterones these past 3 years.)
> D. Wells
>
>
> Remove the numbers to mail me. Include the text "gore-in-2004"
> (without quotation marks) to ensure you make it past the spam filter.

The saddest part of all of this is that even the best Endocrinologists have
less experience with anabolic steroids than the top guys in bodybuilding.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

Mark
September 20th 04, 12:16 AM
>
> The saddest part of all of this is that even the best Endocrinologists have
> less experience with anabolic steroids than the top guys in bodybuilding.

This may be true. Robert Schuh gave me the best information
(privately) than most doctors could or would. Thanks Rob.

February 9th 05, 05:59 PM
Robert,

I'm getting ready to start a Androgel regimen and I was wondering if
there is any other supplements that I could use at the same time
synergistically to increase the T-positive effected while at the same
time limiting negative effects?


Thanks!
Dano

Robert Schuh wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
> > Hi, this is my first posting in this group. On account of low
libido
> > and mild lethargy, I had my testosterone levels checked. I found
out
> > my testosterone count was on the low side (near 300) for a 41 y.o.
> > guy. The doctor did not want to prescribe any supplemental
> > testosterone at this time.
> >
> > I am not a weightlifter but saw this group had some relevant
postings.
> > I was looking into health food store products that claim to boost
T
> > levels and I am totally confused between pro-hormones, stacking
> > agents, etc. Can anyone recommend products that will boost
> > testosterone levels and provide some healthy boost in aggression?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mark
>
> Mark,
> Find a new MD. Testosterone replacement is VERY common these days.
All the
> over the counter stuff is pure unadulterated bull****. 200 mg every
other
> week of Testosterone Enanthate or Cypionate will make a big
difference in
> your life.
>
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche