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Aaron
September 20th 04, 09:55 AM
Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
the following...

200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.

Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?

07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
22:00 - Protien shake- 20g

On workout days I'll have a protien shake following the workout too. This is
pretty much my daily eating ritual.

This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.

Have I calculated the quanties correct here?

Thanks, Aaron.

Top Sirloin
September 20th 04, 11:39 AM
Aaron wrote:


> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
> anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
>
> 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g

Tea has no freaking protein. No regular protein
either.

Your problem is that all of your servings are way
too small. Try protein shakes with 50g of protein
in them and giant hunks of meat instead of little
tidbits the size of a bar of soap.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Donovan Rebbechi
September 20th 04, 12:20 PM
On 2004-09-20, Aaron > wrote:
> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
> the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.

No. The "forumlar" is wrong. You only need about half of that.

> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not.

Your protein intake is fine. You're getting 0.8gm/lb body weight a day, plus
whatever is in your dinner.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

DRS
September 20th 04, 12:37 PM
"Aaron" > wrote in message

> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I

Why?

> get the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.

1g/lb BW over-estimates for most people.

> This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.

Lemon's formula for strength athletes is 1.8g/kg BW which for you would be
164g.

> Have I calculated the quanties correct here?

No.

--

"Self-delusion as a coping tool has always been a fairly useful strategy for
me."
Dally

Jim Ranieri
September 20th 04, 01:15 PM
"Aaron" > wrote in message
...
> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
> the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.
>
> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only).
Can
> anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
>
> 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
>
> On workout days I'll have a protien shake following the workout too. This
is
> pretty much my daily eating ritual.
>
> This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.
>
> Have I calculated the quanties correct here?
>

Around here, a 6 oz can of tuna has about 40g protein

ziggy-wiggy
September 20th 04, 02:39 PM
> 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g

I know you said that you were listing only the protein but you can't really
make a sound judgement on the above. Can you list your full days
consumption including carbs and liquids.

In addition to what has already been said, try adding some egg whites in the
morning and some peanut butter at night.

Stephen Mulholland
September 20th 04, 04:14 PM
"Aaron" > wrote in message >...
> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
> the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.

From what I've read, 0.8 - 1 g /lb of lean body mass is plenty.

Stephen

Proton Soup
September 20th 04, 04:34 PM
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:55:48 +1200, "Aaron" >
wrote:

>Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
>the following...
>
>200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.
>
>Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
>maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
>anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?

Easy. Boil everything!

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

gman99
September 20th 04, 05:48 PM
"Aaron" > wrote:
> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
> the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.
>
> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only).
> Can anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
>
> 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
>
> On workout days I'll have a protien shake following the workout too. This
> is pretty much my daily eating ritual.
>
> This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.
>
> Have I calculated the quanties correct here?
>
> Thanks, Aaron.

You sure you're counting things right ?? Those are some small chicken
breasts with only 30 g of protein...chicken is about 30% protein...tuna
about 25%...

Robert Schuh
September 21st 04, 04:05 AM
Aaron wrote:

> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I get
> the following...
>
> 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.
>
> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
> anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
>
> 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
>
> On workout days I'll have a protien shake following the workout too. This is
> pretty much my daily eating ritual.
>
> This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.
>
> Have I calculated the quanties correct here?
>
> Thanks, Aaron.

Who told you you needed 1.5 grams/lb?


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

Robert Schuh
September 21st 04, 04:06 AM
Bully wrote:

> Aaron wrote:
> > Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight I
> > get the following...
> >
> > 200.2 * 1.5 = 300g protien daily.
> >
> > Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day,
> > but maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien
> > only). Can anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more
> > protien?
> >
> > 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> > 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> > 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> > 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> > 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> > 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> > 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> > 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
> >
> > On workout days I'll have a protien shake following the workout too.
> > This is pretty much my daily eating ritual.
> >
> > This is only 160g of protien, half of what I am suppose to be eating.
> >
> > Have I calculated the quanties correct here?
> >
> > Thanks, Aaron.
>
> FYI: the formula is normally applied to Lean Body Mass!!! Anyhow -- double
> the amount of powder in your protein shakes -- 20g is **** all; and the
> mwith milk instead of water. Also, find some decent protein bars; the one's
> I use have 50g of protein per bar. Job done.
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

Protein bars are crap. He should eat more real food.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

Aaron
September 21st 04, 06:41 AM
> Who told you you needed 1.5 grams/lb?

Cannot remember. Is this too little/much?

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, I've already actioned some, and will
tonight try and ascertain my LBM.

Aaron.

Robert Schuh
September 21st 04, 07:02 AM
Aaron wrote:

> > Who told you you needed 1.5 grams/lb?
>
> Cannot remember. Is this too little/much?
>
> Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, I've already actioned some, and will
> tonight try and ascertain my LBM.
>
> Aaron.

You really only need about 1 gram/lb, but if you are at 75% body fat, you
obviously need less than that! :-)


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

z_bumbi
September 21st 04, 09:26 AM
"Aaron" > wrote in message >...
> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
> anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?

You donīt eat pasta, rice, bread, veggies etc?
If you do you have to count the protein in those to..

Bjorn

Aaron
September 21st 04, 09:55 AM
> You really only need about 1 gram/lb, but if you are at 75% body fat, you
> obviously need less than that! :-)

Had my BF measured tonight, 12.5%, and I'm 91.5 kgs, (6").

1g/lb = 200g protien/day, I think I can make that. Squeeze a can of tuna in
at breakfast, up the scoops of protien powder and that should just about do
it.

I want to make 105kgs, but these last few months progress has been so
slow/stagnant. Strength is increasing, but mass doesn't seem to be :(

Thanks for the help.

Aaron.

Aaron
September 21st 04, 09:57 AM
> Around here, a 6 oz can of tuna has about 40g protein

I've pulled all the labels off my stack of tuna, but from memory the
'normal' size can here is about 22-24g of protien.

Aaron.

Helgi Briem
September 21st 04, 11:02 AM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:55:47 +1200, "Aaron" >
wrote:

>> You really only need about 1 gram/lb, but if you are at 75% body fat, you
>> obviously need less than that! :-)
>
>Had my BF measured tonight, 12.5%, and I'm 91.5 kgs, (6").
>
>1g/lb = 200g protien/day, I think I can make that. Squeeze a can of tuna in
>at breakfast, up the scoops of protien powder and that should just about do
>it.
>
>I want to make 105kgs, but these last few months progress has been so
>slow/stagnant. Strength is increasing, but mass doesn't seem to be :(

Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
You're getting plenty of protein.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

Aaron
September 21st 04, 11:12 AM
> Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
> You're getting plenty of protein.

What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?

Cheers, Aaron.

Jonathan
September 21st 04, 11:13 AM
Top Sirloin > wrote in message >...
> Aaron wrote:
>
>
> > Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> > maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
> > anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
> >
> > 07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
> > 10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> > 13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
> > 16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
> > 18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
> > 19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
> > 22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
> > 22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
>
> Tea has no freaking protein. No regular protein
> either.

I suspect Aaron is either English or another nationality which calls
an evening meal "tea" as opposed to "dinner".

Jonathan

Geezer From The Freezer
September 21st 04, 01:26 PM
Aaron wrote:
>
> > Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
> > You're getting plenty of protein.
>
> What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?
>
> Cheers, Aaron.

pasta, oats, rice, bread, potato

- I'm sure others will have some good websites.

Helgi Briem
September 21st 04, 01:34 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:12:12 +1200, "Aaron" >
wrote:

>> Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
>> You're getting plenty of protein.
>
>What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?

What's a "good" calorie? Calories are calories. What do
you like eating? Enjoy yourself. Pig out.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

Top Sirloin
September 21st 04, 02:24 PM
Jonathan wrote:

> Top Sirloin > wrote in message >...
>
>>Aaron wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
>>>maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only). Can
>>>anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?
>>>
>>>07:45 - Protien skake - 20g
>>>10:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
>>>13:00 - Chicken breast - 30g
>>>16:00 - Protien bar - 20g
>>>18:00 - Protien shake - 20g
>>>19:00 - Tea (protien content varies)
>>>22:45 - Can of tuna - 20g
>>>22:00 - Protien shake- 20g
>>
>>Tea has no freaking protein. No regular protein
>>either.
>
>
> I suspect Aaron is either English or another nationality which calls
> an evening meal "tea" as opposed to "dinner".

Good catch. I'll happily wear the "Ugly American"
hat for the rest of the day. :-)

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Geezer From The Freezer
September 21st 04, 04:17 PM
Helgi Briem wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:12:12 +1200, "Aaron" >
> wrote:
>
> >> Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
> >> You're getting plenty of protein.
> >
> >What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?
>
> What's a "good" calorie? Calories are calories. What do
> you like eating? Enjoy yourself. Pig out.

Think the poster meant Carbs!

Helgi Briem
September 21st 04, 04:37 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:17:22 +0100, Geezer From The Freezer
> wrote:

>Helgi Briem wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:12:12 +1200, "Aaron" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
>> >> You're getting plenty of protein.
>> >
>> >What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?
>>
>> What's a "good" calorie? Calories are calories. What do
>> you like eating? Enjoy yourself. Pig out.
>
>Think the poster meant Carbs!

Same answer. Well, avoid eating too much sugar, but not for
bodybuilding reasons, just for health considerations, including
dental.

I can't believe anybody in the Western world, especially
not the feeding trough of the world, the USA, has trouble
getting enough calories! Or carbs even.


--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

gman99
September 21st 04, 05:12 PM
"Aaron" > wrote:
> > Eat more then. Calories are more important than protein here.
> > You're getting plenty of protein.
>
> What do you recommend as being sources of 'good' calories?
>
> Cheers, Aaron.

Peanut butter...mmmmmmmm

Robert Schuh
September 22nd 04, 12:17 AM
Aaron wrote:

> > You really only need about 1 gram/lb, but if you are at 75% body fat, you
> > obviously need less than that! :-)
>
> Had my BF measured tonight, 12.5%, and I'm 91.5 kgs, (6").
>
> 1g/lb = 200g protien/day, I think I can make that. Squeeze a can of tuna in
> at breakfast, up the scoops of protien powder and that should just about do
> it.
>
> I want to make 105kgs, but these last few months progress has been so
> slow/stagnant. Strength is increasing, but mass doesn't seem to be :(
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Aaron.

Aaron,
If you are getting stronger and not bigger, you may need to add some volume
training in. I am talking about real pumping things like 20-25 rep sets on
occasion. You REALLY need to gorge the muscle with blood to get it to grow
along with heavy weights. That is why bodybuilders look like they do and power
lifters look like they do.


--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

DZ
September 22nd 04, 07:23 AM
Aaron > wrote:
> Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight
> I get the following...

It's been known that serum total and free testosterone concentrations
decrease with the increase of protein in the diet. This was also found
for proportionally high protein diets, e.g. when testosterone levels
are compared against the proportion of calories coming from protein.

With regard the exercise, these people -
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
pronounced in highly trained athlets.

In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
range looks linear.

Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
than modest intake.

Perhaps excess protein is only beneficial if one is also supplementing
with anabolic steroids.

DZ

Aaron
September 22nd 04, 10:27 AM
> His email address suggests he may be a Kiwi!

Correct :)

Yes, tea = dinner and the drink ;)

Dinner sometimes means tea (the meal), but supper is always something you
have not long before going to bed. Dinner is perhaps used for a more formal
meaning of the word...

eg: "We're going out to dinner" = Going out to nice restraunt.
or: "We're going out to tea" = Mackers, Subway, etc...

Aaron.

Aaron
September 22nd 04, 10:30 AM
> Aaron,
> If you are getting stronger and not bigger, you may need to add some
> volume
> training in. I am talking about real pumping things like 20-25 rep sets on
> occasion. You REALLY need to gorge the muscle with blood to get it to grow
> along with heavy weights. That is why bodybuilders look like they do and
> power
> lifters look like they do.

Cheers for all the great advice folks, I've picked up a lot from this thread
:)

Aaron.

Aaron
September 22nd 04, 10:31 AM
> Perhaps excess protein is only beneficial if one is also supplementing
> with anabolic steroids.

Interesting artical, thanks DZ.

Will Brink
September 22nd 04, 05:54 PM
In article >,
DZ > wrote:

> Aaron > wrote:
> > Working to the forumlar of 1.5g of protien per pound of body weight
> > I get the following...
>
> It's been known that serum total and free testosterone concentrations
> decrease with the increase of protein in the diet.

When total calories and % of fat is controlled for? I have seen no such
data. A high enough % of the diet coming from protein means that
something has to go, and it mat be fat, which is well correlated to T
and free T.

> This was also found
> for proportionally high protein diets, e.g. when testosterone levels
> are compared against the proportion of calories coming from protein.
>
> With regard the exercise, these people -
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
> response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
> of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
> pronounced in highly trained athlets.
>
> In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
> protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
> range looks linear.
>
> Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
> and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
> than modest intake.

No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
high P intakes reduce T per se.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

DZ
September 23rd 04, 10:37 PM
Will Brink wrote:
> DZ wrote:
> > With regard the exercise, these people -
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
> > response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
> > of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
> > pronounced in highly trained athlets.
> >
> > In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
> > protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
> > range looks linear.
> >
> > Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
> > and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
> > than modest intake.
>
> No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
> insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
> hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
> study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
> P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
> study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
> need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
> high P intakes reduce T per se.

They did control for fat intake as implied by one of the "data not
shown" portions of the paper. I asked and got the details from one of
the authors. The negative correlations remain large and significant,
when corrected for fat intake.

Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.

DZ

Will Brink
September 23rd 04, 11:53 PM
In article >,
DZ > wrote:

> Will Brink wrote:
> > DZ wrote:
> > > With regard the exercise, these people -
> > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
> > > response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
> > > of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
> > > pronounced in highly trained athlets.
> > >
> > > In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
> > > protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
> > > range looks linear.
> > >
> > > Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
> > > and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
> > > than modest intake.
> >
> > No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
> > insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
> > hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
> > study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
> > P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
> > study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
> > need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
> > high P intakes reduce T per se.
>
> They did control for fat intake as implied by one of the "data not
> shown" portions of the paper. I asked and got the details from one of
> the authors. The negative correlations remain large and significant,
> when corrected for fat intake.

Meaning less fat and more P = reduced T no?

>
> Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
> increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.

From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
(approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
diets below 30% suck for T levels.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Proton Soup
September 24th 04, 12:49 AM
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:53:07 -0400, Will Brink
> wrote:

>In article >,
> DZ > wrote:
>
>> Will Brink wrote:
>> > DZ wrote:
>> > > With regard the exercise, these people -
>> > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
>> > > response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
>> > > of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
>> > > pronounced in highly trained athlets.
>> > >
>> > > In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
>> > > protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
>> > > range looks linear.
>> > >
>> > > Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
>> > > and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
>> > > than modest intake.
>> >
>> > No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
>> > insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
>> > hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
>> > study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
>> > P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
>> > study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
>> > need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
>> > high P intakes reduce T per se.
>>
>> They did control for fat intake as implied by one of the "data not
>> shown" portions of the paper. I asked and got the details from one of
>> the authors. The negative correlations remain large and significant,
>> when corrected for fat intake.
>
>Meaning less fat and more P = reduced T no?
>
>>
>> Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
>> increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.
>
>From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
>of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
>conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
>may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
>program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
>(approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
>see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
>confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
>diets below 30% suck for T levels.

You don't suppose people would poorly design a study in order to reach
a conclusion that supports some political agenda, would you? I bet
that never happens.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Lyle McDonald
September 24th 04, 01:47 AM
Will Brink wrote:
> In article >,

>>Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
>>increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.
>
>
> From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
> of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
> conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
> may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
> program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
> (approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
> see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
> confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
> diets below 30% suck for T levels.

But under those conditions (fixed fat, varying protein), carbs are
co-varying, adding another cofound. I believe a study a while back
found that protein:carb ratio also impacted on hormone levels. It's
real hard to do these types of studies for that reason, you always have
at least two things co-varying within eucaloric diets. AS one nutrient
goes up, another (or the other two) have to go down.

So you have to ask if it's an issue of increased one, decreased the
other, the ratio of the two, the interaction of all three.

Also, what was the absolute change in total and free test? The abstract
doesn't say.

Lyle

DZ
September 24th 04, 02:34 AM
Will Brink > wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>> Will Brink wrote:
>> > DZ wrote:
>> > > With regard the exercise, these people -
>> > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
>> > > response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
>> > > of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
>> > > pronounced in highly trained athlets.
>> > >
>> > > In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
>> > > protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
>> > > range looks linear.
>> > >
>> > > Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
>> > > and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
>> > > than modest intake.
>> >
>> > No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
>> > insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
>> > hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
>> > study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
>> > P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
>> > study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
>> > need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
>> > high P intakes reduce T per se.
>>
>> They did control for fat intake as implied by one of the "data not
>> shown" portions of the paper. I asked and got the details from one of
>> the authors. The negative correlations remain large and significant,
>> when corrected for fat intake.
>
> Meaning less fat and more P = reduced T no?

More P at the constant level of fat = reduced T. Well they did not
actually control the fat intake experimentally. But the levels of
T can be fitted to the fat intake and then residuals from the fit can
be used to compute correlations of T with P. I don't know if they did
it quite like this, but such is my understanding. Of course this would
not be as convincing as controlling the diet directly.

>> Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
>> increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.
>
> From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
> of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
> conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
> may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
> program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
> (approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
> see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
> confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
> diets below 30% suck for T levels.

This is true and although the paper does not discuss this much, they
recognize the problem - that the negative correlation could be due to
the confounding effect of decreased amount of fat in individuals that
were taking high amounts of protein. They tried to control for it
statistically.

DZ

ziggy-wiggy
September 24th 04, 09:42 AM
> Now I thought I'd been getting an adequte amount of protien each day, but
> maybe it appears not. Below is the time and what I eat, (protien only).
Can
> anyone offer any advice on where I can slip in some more protien?

Buy some instantized whey protein isolate (90% - 92% protein). I pay approx
Ģ180 for 20KG.

I mix approx 85g with 300ml of water and add flavouring/sweetener and a
couple of ice cubes. I use Nesquick - banana or chocolate.

Hey presto a tasty protein shake with approx 77g of protein and no lumps.

If you mix with milk you will increase the protein content, however cows
milk gives me the ****s so I stick with water.

Works for me.

Will Brink
September 24th 04, 02:25 PM
In article >,
DZ > wrote:

> Will Brink > wrote:
> > DZ wrote:
> >> Will Brink wrote:
> >> > DZ wrote:
> >> > > With regard the exercise, these people -
> >> > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?A43F62759 found that testosterone
> >> > > response to heavy-resistance exercise is decreasing too, with intake
> >> > > of more than 1g/lb of protein. The effect was found even more
> >> > > pronounced in highly trained athlets.
> >> > >
> >> > > In their graphs, serum testosterone concentration drops three times as
> >> > > protein intake increases from 1g/lb to 3g/lb. The dependency in this
> >> > > range looks linear.
> >> > >
> >> > > Their interpretation is that excess protein is detrimental to strength
> >> > > and hypertrophy training because it induces less anabolic response
> >> > > than modest intake.
> >> >
> >> > No, there conclusion is more or less what I said above: "diets with
> >> > insufficient fat and/or excessive protein may compromise the anabolic
> >> > hormonal environment over a training program." The n number of the
> >> > study, lack of real dietary control, and the fact that higher intakes of
> >> > P may lead to a reduction of fat = reduced anabolic hormones, makes this
> >> > study interesting, but supportive of the fat/T connection. It means you
> >> > need to get enough fat in your diet even with higher P intakes, not that
> >> > high P intakes reduce T per se.
> >>
> >> They did control for fat intake as implied by one of the "data not
> >> shown" portions of the paper. I asked and got the details from one of
> >> the authors. The negative correlations remain large and significant,
> >> when corrected for fat intake.
> >
> > Meaning less fat and more P = reduced T no?
>
> More P at the constant level of fat = reduced T. Well they did not
> actually control the fat intake experimentally.

Exactly.

> But the levels of
> T can be fitted to the fat intake and then residuals from the fit can
> be used to compute correlations of T with P. I don't know if they did
> it quite like this, but such is my understanding. Of course this would
> not be as convincing as controlling the diet directly.

Not to mention they used questionnaires, which are close to worthless.

>
> >> Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
> >> increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.
> >
> > From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
> > of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
> > conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
> > may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
> > program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
> > (approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
> > see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
> > confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
> > diets below 30% suck for T levels.
>
> This is true and although the paper does not discuss this much, they
> recognize the problem - that the negative correlation could be due to
> the confounding effect of decreased amount of fat in individuals that
> were taking high amounts of protein. They tried to control for it
> statistically.

Which means the study is really of no use, but confirms, at best, that
increasing P at the expense of F, reduces T. Nothing new here, but it's
an interesting finding. However, it's essential not to draw to great a
conclusion from it, and in my opinion, they clearly did.
>
> DZ

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Will Brink
September 24th 04, 02:30 PM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> Will Brink wrote:
> > In article >,
>
> >>Although the study has design limitations, their data suggest that
> >>increased protein intake leads to diminished levels of testosterone.
> >
> >
> > From the abstract, it did not appear that fat was kept at a constant %
> > of calories, meaning as P went up fat % went down, thus their ending
> > conclusion "diets with ****insufficient fat*** and/or excessive protein
> > may compromise the anabolic hormonal environment over a training
> > program." A study would need to be done where fat requirements were met
> > (approx 30% with some saturated fat in there) and different P intakes to
> > see the true association of P to T levels. From what I saw, fat was a
> > confounding variable only supporting what is already known, low fat
> > diets below 30% suck for T levels.
>
> But under those conditions (fixed fat, varying protein), carbs are
> co-varying, adding another cofound.

I did think of that, but carb intakes never seem to be associated to T
levels if calories are kept constant (see below)

> I believe a study a while back
> found that protein:carb ratio also impacted on hormone levels.

But I would assume the hormones affected would be GH, IGF, and or IGFPs,
vs T, as those appears closly linked to carb intakes. Did that study
also find stat sig changes in T or free T? That would be interesting.

> It's
> real hard to do these types of studies for that reason, you always have
> at least two things co-varying within eucaloric diets. AS one nutrient
> goes up, another (or the other two) have to go down.

Yup.

>
> So you have to ask if it's an issue of increased one, decreased the
> other, the ratio of the two, the interaction of all three.

Agreed, there s nothing that works in isolation in such a study.

>
> Also, what was the absolute change in total and free test? The abstract
> doesn't say.

Good point, the authors seem to be really stretching it.

>
> Lyle
>

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Will Brink
September 24th 04, 02:31 PM
In article >,
Proton Soup > wrote:


>
> You don't suppose people would poorly design a study in order to reach
> a conclusion that supports some political agenda, would you? I bet
> that never happens.

Nooooooooooooooooooo.

>
> -----------
> Proton Soup
>
> "Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Lyle McDonald
September 24th 04, 04:39 PM
Will Brink wrote:

> In article >,
> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>
>
>>Will Brink wrote:


>>I believe a study a while back
>>found that protein:carb ratio also impacted on hormone levels.
>
>
> But I would assume the hormones affected would be GH, IGF, and or IGFPs,
> vs T, as those appears closly linked to carb intakes. Did that study
> also find stat sig changes in T or free T? That would be interesting.

Abstract appears below. Unfortunately, didn't mention intakes in the
abstract. Looks like both total test and SHBG was affected. Cortisol
was lower with higher carbs but I'm not 100% sure what they are
indicating in terms of cortisol binding hormone.

Of course, no real shock considering the effect of insulin on SHBG (and
binding of test to it) as well as insulin/blood glucose on cortisol.

Lyle

***
Life Sci. 1987 May 4;40(18):1761-8. Related Articles, Links

Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters
reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their
respective binding globulins in man.

Anderson KE, Rosner W, Khan MS, New MI, Pang SY, Wissel PS, Kappas A.

The aim of this study was to determine if a change in
protein/carbohydrate ratio influences plasma steroid hormone
concentrations. There is little information about the effects of
specific dietary components on steroid hormone metabolism in humans.
Testosterone concentrations in seven normal men were consistently higher
after ten days on a high carbohydrate diet (468 +/- 34 ng/dl, mean +/-
S.E.) than during a high protein diet (371 +/- 23 ng/dl, p less than
0.05) and were accompanied by parallel changes in sex hormone binding
globulin (32.5 +/- 2.8 nmol/l vs. 23.4 +/- 1.6 nmol/l respectively, p
less than 0.01). By contrast, cortisol concentrations were consistently
lower during the high carbohydrate diet than during the high protein
diet (7.74 +/- 0.71 micrograms/dl vs. 10.6 +/- 0.4 micrograms/dl
respectively, p less than 0.05), and there were parallel changes in
corticosteroid binding globulin concentrations (635 +/- 60 nmol/l vs.
754 +/- 31 nmol/l respectively, p less than 0.05). The diets were equal
in total calories and fat. These consistent and reciprocal changes
suggest that the ratio of protein to carbohydrate in the human diet is
an important regulatory factor for steroid hormone plasma levels and for
liver-derived hormone binding proteins.

ziggy-wiggy
September 28th 04, 11:37 AM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> ziggy-wiggy > wrote:
> > Buy some instantized whey protein isolate (90% - 92% protein). I pay
approx
> > Ģ180 for 20KG.
> >
> > I mix approx 85g with 300ml of water and add flavouring/sweetener and a
> > couple of ice cubes. I use Nesquick - banana or chocolate.
>
> 85g all at once? I'd probably explode.

Do you mean with wind?

I've not noticed an increase in flatulence since I started using it.