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Richard Bray
September 20th 04, 11:25 PM
From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would have
to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how graceless
and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
Hudson.




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MJL
September 21st 04, 03:24 AM
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
wrote:

>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would have
>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how graceless
>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>Hudson.

They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I personally
find it troubling that they didn't investigate this to the point of it
being bullet-proof. The fact that they would release something that
they know will be explosive without truly being sure it is legit shows
a pretty severe lack of judgement. And worse, it is just plain
stupid.


--
http://www.texansfortruth.org/

Tiger Hillside
September 21st 04, 01:18 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>wrote:
>
>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would have
>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how graceless
>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>Hudson.
>
>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I personally
>find it troubling that they didn't investigate this to the point of it
>being bullet-proof. The fact that they would release something that
>they know will be explosive without truly being sure it is legit shows
>a pretty severe lack of judgement. And worse, it is just plain
>stupid.

What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that the
content was accurate and represented things the officer had actually
said.

Of course Bush could release all of this material, something he has
refused to do, and clear up many of these issues. But is there anyone
here who thinks Bush did not get special treatment in getting into the
guard?

MJL
September 21st 04, 02:07 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:18:06 GMT, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would have
>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how graceless
>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>Hudson.
>>
>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I personally
>>find it troubling that they didn't investigate this to the point of it
>>being bullet-proof. The fact that they would release something that
>>they know will be explosive without truly being sure it is legit shows
>>a pretty severe lack of judgement. And worse, it is just plain
>>stupid.
>
>What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
>important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
>supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that the
>content was accurate and represented things the officer had actually
>said.
>
>Of course Bush could release all of this material, something he has
>refused to do, and clear up many of these issues. But is there anyone
>here who thinks Bush did not get special treatment in getting into the
>guard?
>
>
>
>

I forget who said it on the talking head shows on Sunday but it was
dead on accurate... people have already discounted the fact that Bush
was a privileged screw up in his youth who rode daddy's coat tails to
power.


--
http://www.texansfortruth.org/

Top Sirloin
September 21st 04, 02:22 PM
Tiger Hillside wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would have
>>
>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how graceless
>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>Hudson.
>>
>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I personally
>>find it troubling that they didn't investigate this to the point of it
>>being bullet-proof. The fact that they would release something that
>>they know will be explosive without truly being sure it is legit shows
>>a pretty severe lack of judgement. And worse, it is just plain
>>stupid.
>
>
> What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
> important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
> supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that the
> content was accurate and represented things the officer had actually
> said.
>
> Of course Bush could release all of this material, something he has
> refused to do, and clear up many of these issues. But is there anyone
> here who thinks Bush did not get special treatment in getting into the
> guard?

There is no story, unless you want to come up with
something a little more concrete than an 87-year
old secretary who shared dutied between several
officers.

Bush has signed a SF-180, thus making all of his
military records public - why won't Kerry do the
same? My suspicion is that it has to do the fact
that his discharge was amended during the Carter
administration.

Even so, none of this changes the fact that
Kerry's "secret plans" for the economy and The War
on Terror aren't resonating with the public.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

John M. Williams
September 21st 04, 06:16 PM
Tiger Hillside wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would
have
>>
>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how
graceless
>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>Hudson.
>>
>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I
>>personally find it troubling that they didn't investigate this
>>to the point of it being bullet-proof. The fact that they would
>>release something that they know will be explosive without truly
>>being sure it is legit shows a pretty severe lack of judgement.
>>And worse, it is just plain stupid.
>
> What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
> important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
> supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that
> the content was accurate and represented things the officer had
> actually said.

What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over books and commercials,
an important story was missed. The officers who served in the same
unit said that his citations were official, *but* they were based on
his own after-action reports which were inaccurate and didn't
represent the things they saw.

> Of course Bush could release all of this material, something he has
> refused to do, and clear up many of these issues.

Of course, Kerry could sign a standard Form 180, a simple two-page
release form, something he has refused to do, and clear up many of
these issues.

> But is there anyone
> here who thinks Bush did not get special treatment in getting into
> the guard?

But is there anyone here who thinks that a Yale-graduate son of a U.S.
diplomat did not get special treatment in Vietnam?

Tiger Hillside
September 21st 04, 09:35 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:16:38 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would
>have
>>>
>>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how
>graceless
>>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>>Hudson.
>>>
>>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I
>>>personally find it troubling that they didn't investigate this
>>>to the point of it being bullet-proof. The fact that they would
>>>release something that they know will be explosive without truly
>>>being sure it is legit shows a pretty severe lack of judgement.
>>>And worse, it is just plain stupid.
>>
>> What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
>> important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
>> supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that
>> the content was accurate and represented things the officer had
>> actually said.
>
>What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over books and commercials,
>an important story was missed. The officers who served in the same
>unit said that his citations were official, *but* they were based on
>his own after-action reports which were inaccurate and didn't
>represent the things they saw.

And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate. And no one
has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.

>> Of course Bush could release all of this material, something he has
>> refused to do, and clear up many of these issues.
>
>Of course, Kerry could sign a standard Form 180, a simple two-page
>release form, something he has refused to do, and clear up many of
>these issues.

So neither has.

>> But is there anyone
>> here who thinks Bush did not get special treatment in getting into
>> the guard?
>
>But is there anyone here who thinks that a Yale-graduate son of a U.S.
>diplomat did not get special treatment in Vietnam?

Interesting way to avoid the question. Yes, I think that someone who
volunteered for duty and for a second tour shows less evidence of
getting special treatment than someone who served in the Guard, at
home, with the sons of senators and members of the Dallas Cowboys.

John M. Williams
September 22nd 04, 12:21 AM
Tiger Hillside > wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:16:38 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:
>
>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would
>>have
>>>>
>>>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how
>>graceless
>>>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>>>Hudson.
>>>>
>>>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I
>>>>personally find it troubling that they didn't investigate this
>>>>to the point of it being bullet-proof. The fact that they would
>>>>release something that they know will be explosive without truly
>>>>being sure it is legit shows a pretty severe lack of judgement.
>>>>And worse, it is just plain stupid.
>>>
>>> What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
>>> important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
>>> supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that
>>> the content was accurate and represented things the officer had
>>> actually said.
>>
>>What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over books and commercials,
>>an important story was missed. The officers who served in the same
>>unit said that his citations were official, *but* they were based on
>>his own after-action reports which were inaccurate and didn't
>>represent the things they saw.
>
>And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate.

Gunner's Mate Stephen Gardner?

>And no one
>has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
>saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.

$50,000 isn't much money to have the Kerry campaign machine doing
everything in their power, including trashing your personal life, just
to discredit you. And you know that would happen.

Tiger Hillside
September 22nd 04, 03:55 PM
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:21:52 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:16:38 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:
>>
>>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:24:03 GMT, MJL > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:25:05 -0400, Richard Bray >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>From the first hours, there was never any question that CBS would
>>>have
>>>>>
>>>>>>to disavow this debacle. The only point of interest was how
>>>graceless
>>>>>>and self-serving their attempted exculpation might be. They did not
>>>>>>disappoint. The thin, whining excuse they released was worthy of
>>>>>>Hudson.
>>>>>
>>>>>They admitted screwing up and that is the important part. You'd
>>>>>expect a reputable news organization to admit a mistake. I
>>>>>personally find it troubling that they didn't investigate this
>>>>>to the point of it being bullet-proof. The fact that they would
>>>>>release something that they know will be explosive without truly
>>>>>being sure it is legit shows a pretty severe lack of judgement.
>>>>>And worse, it is just plain stupid.
>>>>
>>>> What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over the documents an
>>>> important story was missed. The secretary of the officer who
>>>> supposedly wrote the documents said they were forgeries *but* that
>>>> the content was accurate and represented things the officer had
>>>> actually said.
>>>
>>>What is too bad is that in all the turmoil over books and commercials,
>>>an important story was missed. The officers who served in the same
>>>unit said that his citations were official, *but* they were based on
>>>his own after-action reports which were inaccurate and didn't
>>>represent the things they saw.
>>
>>And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate.
>
>Gunner's Mate Stephen Gardner?

I have to wonder how many medals from Vietnam could withstand
reasonable scrutiny. Most probably would have had problems then. I
have read enough books about the war that talked about significant
medal escalation/devaluation. I wonder how many of Powell's medals
would stand up or anyone else's. This is all an indictment of the
military of the time, not of Kerry. The worst things said about
Kerry's involvement are astoundingly better than the best said about
Bush's.

>>And no one
>>has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
>>saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.
>
>$50,000 isn't much money to have the Kerry campaign machine doing
>everything in their power, including trashing your personal life, just
>to discredit you. And you know that would happen.

You mean like how the Administration went after Paul O'Neill and
others?

ATP
September 22nd 04, 11:03 PM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message >
> All people are not animals.
>
I AMMMM NOT AN ANIMAL. I AMMMM A HUHUMAN BEINGGG!

Anna Martelli Ravenscroft
September 22nd 04, 11:12 PM
ATP wrote:

> "John Hanson" > wrote in message >
>
>>All people are not animals.
>>
>
> I AMMMM NOT AN ANIMAL. I AMMMM A HUHUMAN BEINGGG!
>
>
I am not a number!

John M. Williams
September 23rd 04, 03:44 AM
John Hanson > wrote:
> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>
>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>horror is simply different culture.)
>
>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>their heads carved off?

I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
have no desire to ever see another one.

John Hanson
September 23rd 04, 04:05 AM
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:44:58 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson > wrote:
>> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>>
>>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>>horror is simply different culture.)
>>
>>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>>their heads carved off?
>
>I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
>the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
>have no desire to ever see another one.

You can say that again. After watching and listening to Nick Berg get
his head carved off, I don't ever want to see it again.

Donovan Rebbechi
September 23rd 04, 04:16 AM
On 2004-09-23, John M Williams > wrote:
> John Hanson > wrote:
>> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>>
>>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>>horror is simply different culture.)
>>
>>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>>their heads carved off?
>
> I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
> the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
> have no desire to ever see another one.

After hearing it described by several observers as "sawn off with a knife",
I'm prepared to take their word for it. It makes me feel ill thinking about it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Tiger Hillside
September 23rd 04, 05:07 AM
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:44:58 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>John Hanson > wrote:
>> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>>
>>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>>horror is simply different culture.)
>>
>>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>>their heads carved off?
>
>I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
>the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
>have no desire to ever see another one.

I did not see the videos, it is gruesome to even think about. I have
no need to help the terrorists by looking at their videos. Every step
of what they are doing is wrong, I was not forgiving or excusing
anything. I was just saying that some aspects are not different from
what the Saudis do. Horribly enough I wonder if the "carving" is done
because they are just not good at the job. I assume the Saudi headsman
practices somehow.

John M. Williams
September 23rd 04, 06:23 AM
Tiger Hillside > wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:44:58 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:
>
>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>>>horror is simply different culture.)
>>>
>>>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>>>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>>>their heads carved off?
>>
>>I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
>>the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
>>have no desire to ever see another one.
>
>I did not see the videos, it is gruesome to even think about. I have
>no need to help the terrorists by looking at their videos. Every step
>of what they are doing is wrong, I was not forgiving or excusing
>anything. I was just saying that some aspects are not different from
>what the Saudis do. Horribly enough I wonder if the "carving" is done
>because they are just not good at the job. I assume the Saudi headsman
>practices somehow.

You are incredibly naive. They are doing it in the most gruesome
manner possible to instill ta-da! TERROR! They are saying, "We
are cruel; fear us!"

If you feel like contradicting that statement, I suggest that you
watch one of those videos before doing so. Otherwise, you speak from
ignorance.

Single-stroke beheadings, as done in Saudi Arabia, and formerly in
Japan and France, may shock some sensibilites, but they are,
nonetheless, humane. What these terrorists are doing is nothing like
those types of executions.

Top Sirloin
September 23rd 04, 12:55 PM
Tiger Hillside wrote:

> And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate. And no one
> has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
> saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.

The fact that some people think that Bush may of
slacked off on TANG duty when there was a glut of
pilots = Kerry lying about his service, trashing
the service of other Vietnam Veterans and meeting
with our enemy at the time in terms of political
import is no end of amusement for me.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Tiger Hillside
September 23rd 04, 02:09 PM
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:55:13 -0400, Top Sirloin
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>
>> And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate. And no one
>> has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
>> saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.
>
>The fact that some people think that Bush may of
>slacked off on TANG duty when there was a glut of
>pilots = Kerry lying about his service, trashing
>the service of other Vietnam Veterans and meeting
>with our enemy at the time in terms of political
>import is no end of amusement for me.

Kerry did not "trash the service" of other vets, Kerry told some true
things about how the U.S. was fighting the Vietnam War. Since the
things he said were ugly and shameful many people have felt more
comfortable attacking Kerry rather than facing what we have done.
America did commit atrocities, we did do terrible things. It is not
Kerry's fault this happened or that the American public found out
about it.

Tiger Hillside
September 23rd 04, 02:14 PM
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 01:23:45 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:44:58 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:
>>
>>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>>> Tiger Hillside > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>(BTW, cutting off the heads in public is how
>>>>>our ally Saudi Arabia implements their death penalty. Some of our
>>>>>horror is simply different culture.)
>>>>
>>>>The cutting off of the head is done with one blow, not a carving off
>>>>of the head. Have you seen any of the videos of these guys getting
>>>>their heads carved off?
>>>
>>>I'm surprised that "Tiger" was unaware of this. I'm no stranger to
>>>the sight of violent deaths, and after seeing one of those videos, I
>>>have no desire to ever see another one.
>>
>>I did not see the videos, it is gruesome to even think about. I have
>>no need to help the terrorists by looking at their videos. Every step
>>of what they are doing is wrong, I was not forgiving or excusing
>>anything. I was just saying that some aspects are not different from
>>what the Saudis do. Horribly enough I wonder if the "carving" is done
>>because they are just not good at the job. I assume the Saudi headsman
>>practices somehow.
>
>You are incredibly naive.

No, I wondered.

> They are doing it in the most gruesome
>manner possible to instill ta-da! TERROR! They are saying, "We
>are cruel; fear us!"

Yep. Either way it is terror.

>If you feel like contradicting that statement, I suggest that you
>watch one of those videos before doing so. Otherwise, you speak from
>ignorance.

Contradicting what? Of course they are trying to instill terror. I
speculated on something.

>Single-stroke beheadings, as done in Saudi Arabia, and formerly in
>Japan and France, may shock some sensibilites, but they are,
>nonetheless, humane. What these terrorists are doing is nothing like
>those types of executions.

They may be humane, but the talk is about how they are "cutting off
heads", I suspect that the talk would be the same and that the
revulsion we feel would be pretty much the same if they did it neatly.
It is horrible either way. I was horrified and I ignored detailed
descriptions, knowing it is done brutally makes me more repulsed, but
I am not more frightened nor more opposed to the terrorists.

I think this is a minor point. The question is not whether or not what
they are doing is good, it is clearly terrible. It would be terrible
if they used the "humane" methods we use for capital punishment. The
question is how to deal with it.

JC Der Koenig
September 24th 04, 03:36 AM
"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:55:13 -0400, Top Sirloin
> > wrote:
>
>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>
>>> And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate. And no one
>>> has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
>>> saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.
>>
>>The fact that some people think that Bush may of
>>slacked off on TANG duty when there was a glut of
>>pilots = Kerry lying about his service, trashing
>>the service of other Vietnam Veterans and meeting
>>with our enemy at the time in terms of political
>>import is no end of amusement for me.
>
> Kerry did not "trash the service" of other vets, Kerry told some true
> things about how the U.S. was fighting the Vietnam War. Since the
> things he said were ugly and shameful many people have felt more
> comfortable attacking Kerry rather than facing what we have done.
> America did commit atrocities, we did do terrible things. It is not
> Kerry's fault this happened or that the American public found out
> about it.
>
>

So you were there and saw these things first hand then.....

Tiger Hillside
September 24th 04, 12:25 PM
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 02:36:32 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> wrote:

>"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:55:13 -0400, Top Sirloin
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>>
>>>> And the people who were on the boat said it was accurate. And no one
>>>> has stepped forward to collect the $50,000 available for someone who
>>>> saw Bush in Alabama doing National Guard work.
>>>
>>>The fact that some people think that Bush may of
>>>slacked off on TANG duty when there was a glut of
>>>pilots = Kerry lying about his service, trashing
>>>the service of other Vietnam Veterans and meeting
>>>with our enemy at the time in terms of political
>>>import is no end of amusement for me.
>>
>> Kerry did not "trash the service" of other vets, Kerry told some true
>> things about how the U.S. was fighting the Vietnam War. Since the
>> things he said were ugly and shameful many people have felt more
>> comfortable attacking Kerry rather than facing what we have done.
>> America did commit atrocities, we did do terrible things. It is not
>> Kerry's fault this happened or that the American public found out
>> about it.
>>
>>
>
>So you were there and saw these things first hand then.....
>
As a matter of fact I have not met either Kerry or Bush first hand,
so I suppose I could doubt they exist if we want to play that game.
I have read plenty of books on the subject. Did you read the Toledo
Blade series on our atrocities as an example? I can provide more if
you want.