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dwacon
September 22nd 04, 03:29 AM
I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is replaced by
water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does it normalize on its
own?


--
The Oil of Love
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Peter Allen
September 22nd 04, 01:11 PM
"dwacon" > wrote in message news:<_r54d.3584$%[email protected]>...
> I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is replaced by
> water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does it normalize on its
> own?

Not sure if this is what you mean, but certainly if you've been doing
no work then start exercising your muscles get a bit bigger and
heavier right away, due to water (glycogen?) increasing in them. It's
a one-off thing, let it happen normally. Don't bother with diuretics
unless you need to lose a couple of kilos right now (and even then be
aware that diuretics are usually sports-illegal drugs, so you might do
better to sweat the weight off naturally).

Peter

Lyle McDonald
September 22nd 04, 05:02 PM
dwacon wrote:
> I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is replaced by
> water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does it normalize on its
> own?

Years ago I was told by an exercise physiology professor that fat cells
would refill with water after the stored triglyceride had been dumped.
That a few weeks later, the water would drop and the fat loss would
'manifest' (for lack of a better word). For years I looked for research
backing this, enver found a thing. It does make a certain sort of sense
in that glycerol (the backbone of stored fat) attracts water. And it
would explain the frequent apparent stalls and fat/weight drops that
tend to occur on a diet.

Last year a study came out showing that this does happen, that
individuals who had lost weight had a higher water content in their
visceral (gut) fat compartment.

so it would appear that something is going on.

It's nothing worth worrying about IMO, the body will take care of it all
by itself.

Lyle

zxcv
September 22nd 04, 08:11 PM
"dwacon" > wrote in message news:<_r54d.3584$%[email protected]>...
> I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is replaced by
> water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does it normalize on its
> own?

Perhaps what you read is that when you lose weight you first lose
water weight? This is especially true if you are on a low carb diet
since every gram of carbs in the body holds onto 4 carbs of water.

August Pamplona
September 23rd 04, 03:22 AM
In ,
Lyle McDonald > typed:
> dwacon wrote:
>> I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is
>> replaced by water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does
>> it normalize on its own?
>
> Years ago I was told by an exercise physiology professor that fat
> cells would refill with water after the stored triglyceride had been
> dumped. That a few weeks later, the water would drop and the fat loss
> would 'manifest' (for lack of a better word). For years I looked for
> research backing this, enver found a thing. It does make a certain
> sort of sense in that glycerol (the backbone of stored fat) attracts
> water. And it would explain the frequent apparent stalls and
> fat/weight drops that tend to occur on a diet.


Why wouldn't the glycerol be immediately metabolized?

>
> Last year a study came out showing that this does happen, that
> individuals who had lost weight had a higher water content in their
> visceral (gut) fat compartment.

Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
doesn't happen or happens very rarely). Shrunken fat cells probably
imply that the lipid to total cytoplasm ratio will go down (as compared
to their previous state). When the lipid to total cytoplasm ratio is
down, this would result in a higher relative water content (that is,
while Mr. fatty before the diet might carry more net water in his
adipose tissue before the diet simply because he had so much of it, the
relative water content in his adipose tissue after his fat loss will
still be much higher).

>
> so it would appear that something is going on.
>
> It's nothing worth worrying about IMO, the body will take care of it
> all by itself.
>
> Lyle

August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.

a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
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Ed
September 23rd 04, 11:21 AM
"August Pamplona" > wrote in message
...
> In ,
> Lyle McDonald > typed:
>
> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
> fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
> their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
> doesn't happen or happens very rarely).

Fat cells do not divide. You are born with all the fat cells you will ever
have. They simply grow and shrink. The only way of reducing your fat cells
is by lyposuction. However if you get fat again the body will make your
remain cells that much bigger but it can not produce new ones.

--Ed

Geezer From The Freezer
September 23rd 04, 11:40 AM
Ed wrote:
>
> "August Pamplona" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In ,
> > Lyle McDonald > typed:
> >
> > Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
> > fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
> > their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
> > doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>
> Fat cells do not divide. You are born with all the fat cells you will ever
> have. They simply grow and shrink. The only way of reducing your fat cells
> is by lyposuction. However if you get fat again the body will make your
> remain cells that much bigger but it can not produce new ones.
>
> --Ed

Does that mean fat is stored elsewhere (heart for example?) I have no idea
about fat cells.

Lyle McDonald
September 23rd 04, 04:42 PM
August Pamplona wrote:
> In ,
> Lyle McDonald > typed:
>
>>dwacon wrote:
>>
>>>I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is
>>>replaced by water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or does
>>>it normalize on its own?
>>
>>Years ago I was told by an exercise physiology professor that fat
>>cells would refill with water after the stored triglyceride had been
>>dumped. That a few weeks later, the water would drop and the fat loss
>>would 'manifest' (for lack of a better word). For years I looked for
>>research backing this, enver found a thing. It does make a certain
>>sort of sense in that glycerol (the backbone of stored fat) attracts
>>water. And it would explain the frequent apparent stalls and
>>fat/weight drops that tend to occur on a diet.
>
>
>
> Why wouldn't the glycerol be immediately metabolized?

Well, glycerol isn't metabolized w/in the fat cell.
I'd have to look but I don't think glycerol and FFA come out of the fat
cell in identical proportions. It's actually one problem with studies
that only measure glycerol release and use it to estimate FFA release
(they assume a 1:3 ratio of glycerol:FFA), it's not that simple.

Meaning that if more glycerol is left in the fat cell than FFA (because
of FFA mobilization), you'd expect the hydrophilic nature of the
glycerol to do what I suggested.

>
>
>>Last year a study came out showing that this does happen, that
>>individuals who had lost weight had a higher water content in their
>>visceral (gut) fat compartment.
>
>
> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
> fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
> their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
> doesn't happen or happens very rarely).

Fat cell division usually isn't the normal mode of fat gain, hypertrophy is.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
September 23rd 04, 04:43 PM
Ed wrote:

> "August Pamplona" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In ,
>>Lyle McDonald > typed:
>>
>> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
>>fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
>>their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
>>doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>
>
> Fat cells do not divide. You are born with all the fat cells you will ever
> have. They simply grow and shrink.

this is incorrect.

There are a few critical periods where fat cell hyperplasia can occur.
Puberty is one, pregnancy is another, extreme fat individuals can gain
more fat cells, once fat cells reach a critical size, they release
autocrine factors which recruit preadipocytes which mature into new fat
cells.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
September 23rd 04, 04:44 PM
Geezer From The Freezer wrote:

>
> Ed wrote:
>
>>"August Pamplona" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>In ,
>>>Lyle McDonald > typed:
>>>
>>> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
>>>fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
>>>their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
>>>doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>>
>>Fat cells do not divide. You are born with all the fat cells you will ever
>>have. They simply grow and shrink. The only way of reducing your fat cells
>>is by lyposuction. However if you get fat again the body will make your
>>remain cells that much bigger but it can not produce new ones.
>>
>>--Ed
>
>
> Does that mean fat is stored elsewhere (heart for example?) I have no idea
> about fat cells.

Under conditions where fat cells can no longer accept fat for storage
(such as severe whole body insulin sensitivity), the fat gets stored in
'improper' places. Such as the liver, the pancreas, etc. this causea
lot of body damage but only happens under somewhat extreme conditions.

Lyle

Elzinator
September 23rd 04, 07:10 PM
"Ed" <[email protected]> wrote in message >...
> "August Pamplona" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In ,
> > Lyle McDonald > typed:
> >
> > Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
> > fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink because
> > their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off --which either
> > doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>
> Fat cells do not divide. You are born with all the fat cells you will ever
> have. They simply grow and shrink. The only way of reducing your fat cells
> is by lyposuction. However if you get fat again the body will make your
> remain cells that much bigger but it can not produce new ones.

You are wrong. Mature (differentiated) fat cells can not divide.
However, adipocytes (fat cells), just as all other cells, have a
finite size of expansion (hypertrophy). Although an increase in
adipocyte size occurs before an increase in the number of adipocytes
(hyperplasia), the latter does indeed occur. When adipocytes reach a
critical size, growth factors released from the enlarged cells and
possibly nearby cells (fibroblasts, etc) trigger proliferation
(division)and differentiation of preadipocytes (the precursor cells of
mature adipocytes). Adipocyte hyperplasia in humans is more common
after birth for a short period of time.

I suggest you read a recent review of adipocyte cellularity/biology.

"Even at the adult stage, the potential to generate new fat cells
persists. It has been demonstrated that fat cell number can increase
when rats are fed a high-carbohydrate or high-fat diet (67, 68, 176).
Increase in fat cell number is also observed in severe human obesity.
However, the relative contribution of fat cell size and fat cell
number to human adipose tissue growth on nutritional stimulation
remains to be clarified. Regardless, early differentiation markers of
adipocyte differentiation can be detected even in adipose tissue
derived from very old mice (138). Moreover, fat cell precursors
isolated from adult WAT of various species, including humans, can be
differentiated in vitro into mature adipocytes (21, 58, 98, 104, 160,
213, 264). The potential to acquire new fat cells from fat cell
precursors throughout the life span is now undisputed."

Excerpted from: Understanding Adipocyte Differentiation. F.M.
GREGOIRE. PHYSIOLOGICAL REVIEWS. Vol. 78 No. 3 July 1998, pp. 783-809.

Hope that helps.

August Pamplona
September 23rd 04, 09:51 PM
In ,
Lyle McDonald > typed:
> August Pamplona wrote:
>> In ,
>> Lyle McDonald > typed:
>>
>>> dwacon wrote:
>>>
>>>> I read that when you first start losing weight, the lost fat is
>>>> replaced by water. Is this true? Is a diuretic recommended or
>>>> does it normalize on its own?
>>>
>>> Years ago I was told by an exercise physiology professor that fat
>>> cells would refill with water after the stored triglyceride had been
>>> dumped. That a few weeks later, the water would drop and the fat
>>> loss would 'manifest' (for lack of a better word). For years I
>>> looked for research backing this, enver found a thing. It does
>>> make a certain sort of sense in that glycerol (the backbone of
>>> stored fat) attracts water. And it would explain the frequent
>>> apparent stalls and fat/weight drops that tend to occur on a diet.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why wouldn't the glycerol be immediately metabolized?
>
> Well, glycerol isn't metabolized w/in the fat cell.
> I'd have to look but I don't think glycerol and FFA come out of the
> fat cell in identical proportions. It's actually one problem with
> studies that only measure glycerol release and use it to estimate FFA
> release
> (they assume a 1:3 ratio of glycerol:FFA), it's not that simple.

So maybe one lags the other a little.

>
> Meaning that if more glycerol is left in the fat cell than FFA
> (because of FFA mobilization), you'd expect the hydrophilic nature of
> the
> glycerol to do what I suggested.
>

I supose it's possible you might be right. It's happened before.

>>
>>
>>> Last year a study came out showing that this does happen, that
>>> individuals who had lost weight had a higher water content in their
>>> visceral (gut) fat compartment.
>>
>>
>> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
>> fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink
>> because their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off
>> --which either doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>
> Fat cell division usually isn't the normal mode of fat gain,
> hypertrophy is.

I guess I was thinking fat **** scenario. Either way, you'll get fat
cell shrinkage with respect to the starting point and I can't see how
the lipid to total cytoplasmic ratio could stay the same (it definitely
won't at the extreme ends).

>
> Lyle

August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.

a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
The address in this message's 'From' field, in accordance with
individual.net's TOS, is real. However, almost all messages
reaching this address are deleted without human intervention.
In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message.

To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me,
make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

Lyle McDonald
September 24th 04, 06:50 PM
August Pamplona wrote:

>>> Well, duh! It probably just means that when people get fat, their
>>>fat cells divide and when they lose fat, their fat cells shrink
>>>because their increased numbers are retained (unless they die off
>>>--which either doesn't happen or happens very rarely).
>>
>>Fat cell division usually isn't the normal mode of fat gain,
>>hypertrophy is.
>
>
> I guess I was thinking fat **** scenario. Either way, you'll get fat
> cell shrinkage with respect to the starting point and I can't see how
> the lipid to total cytoplasmic ratio could stay the same (it definitely
> won't at the extreme ends).

But that doesn't necessarily explain why it would (re)fill up with water
initially.

We know at some point, the depleted fat cells simply collapse (a totally
depleted fat cell will just be the cell membrane plus a bit of celluar
stuff).

Why wouldn't it do that from the start?

Lyle