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TheTortoise
September 24th 04, 10:41 PM
Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb protein
guideline relax on non-lifting days?

Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd post
it out front.

Lyle McDonald
September 24th 04, 10:47 PM
TheTortoise wrote:
> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
> recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb protein
> guideline relax on non-lifting days?
>
> Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd post
> it out front.
>

Protein synthesis is ongoing from a few hours after the end of the
workout to somwhere between 24-36 hours (when it's back to baseline).
Assuming you are lifting 3X/week, you should be ensuring adequate
protein intake daily. It's conceivable, I suppose that you could lower
protein if you were only lifting 2X/week (say Mon/Fri) but why bother?

Lyle

Justin Case
September 24th 04, 11:04 PM
On 24 Sep 2004 14:41:33 -0700, "TheTortoise" >
wrote:

>Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
>recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb protein
>guideline relax on non-lifting days?
>
No, since an off day is when tissue repair,building and recovery are
taking place.

Tundra Wookie
September 26th 04, 12:36 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> TheTortoise wrote:
> > Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
> > recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb
protein
> > guideline relax on non-lifting days?
> >
> > Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd
post
> > it out front.
> >
>
> Protein synthesis is ongoing from a few hours after the end of the
> workout to somwhere between 24-36 hours (when it's back to baseline).
> Assuming you are lifting 3X/week, you should be ensuring adequate
> protein intake daily. It's conceivable, I suppose that you could
lower
> protein if you were only lifting 2X/week (say Mon/Fri) but why bother?
>
> Lyle
>
FWIW I find that if I am not taking in enough protein in recovery phase
I get food cravings for things such as tuna, peanut butter or red meat
(mmmm, hamburger) The cravings usually occur 12-36 hrs. post intense
workout.

Sidebar: Are there any studies about elevated testosterone and the
consumption of eggs?

Side side bar: It's snowing. Yee-HA! Ski season is upon us!


--TW The eternal quest for the palatable shake

Lyle McDonald
September 26th 04, 01:32 AM
Tundra Wookie wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>TheTortoise wrote:
>>
>>>Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
>>>recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb
>
> protein
>
>>>guideline relax on non-lifting days?
>>>
>>>Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd
>
> post
>
>>>it out front.
>>>
>>
>>Protein synthesis is ongoing from a few hours after the end of the
>>workout to somwhere between 24-36 hours (when it's back to baseline).
>>Assuming you are lifting 3X/week, you should be ensuring adequate
>>protein intake daily. It's conceivable, I suppose that you could
>
> lower
>
>>protein if you were only lifting 2X/week (say Mon/Fri) but why bother?
>>
>>Lyle
>>
>
> FWIW I find that if I am not taking in enough protein in recovery phase
> I get food cravings for things such as tuna, peanut butter or red meat
> (mmmm, hamburger) The cravings usually occur 12-36 hrs. post intense
> workout.
>
> Sidebar: Are there any studies about elevated testosterone and the
> consumption of eggs?

Not that I'm explicitly aware of but I've never looked.
Some studies indicate a link between total fat intake and saturated fat
intake and testosterone though. Basically, diets too low in either tend
to lower testosterone.

Lyle

Tundra Wookie
September 26th 04, 06:35 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Tundra Wookie wrote:
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...

>Blah blah blah removed

> Not that I'm explicitly aware of but I've never looked.
> Some studies indicate a link between total fat intake and saturated
fat
> intake and testosterone though. Basically, diets too low in either
tend
> to lower testosterone.
>
> Lyle
>
Well, if I remember right, cholesterol is a precursor to test, but
chicken meat is pretty high in it and I can eat that until I puke and
things are basically status quo, but throw an egg yolk or two a day into
the mix along with a bunch of whites and suddenly I tend to be a bit...
horny and I am prone to sebaceous acne. Would love to have a blood
assays to track this.

--TW Wood. Lots of wood.

Anna Martelli Ravenscroft
September 26th 04, 03:26 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:
> TheTortoise wrote:
>
>> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
>> recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb protein
>> guideline relax on non-lifting days?

Thanks for reposting this!
>>
>> Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd post
>> it out front.
>>
>
> Protein synthesis is ongoing from a few hours after the end of the
> workout to somwhere between 24-36 hours (when it's back to baseline).
> Assuming you are lifting 3X/week, you should be ensuring adequate
> protein intake daily. It's conceivable, I suppose that you could lower
> protein if you were only lifting 2X/week (say Mon/Fri) but why bother?


I swear, I work harder at tracking my eating than I do at the damn
lifting... (Trying to not overdo calories while getting sufficient
protein while cooking for a pasta junkie...)

So, for me it's not a matter of "lowering" protein, so much as wondering
if I have to push every day to keep my protein up, or if I can "rest" on
that on my rest-days... ;-)

But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...

Anna

DRS
September 26th 04, 04:24 PM
"Anna Martelli Ravenscroft" > wrote in message


[...]

> But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So,
> on my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
> protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on
> things like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...

The importance of the whey protein shake is that since it's whey protein and
it's liquid it's more quickly digested than any other kind of protein. This
matters most in the post-workout window. It's relatively unimportant the
rest of the time. Protein shakes outside the window are for convenience,
nothing more.

--

"Self-delusion as a coping tool has always been a fairly useful strategy for
me."
Dally

Anna Martelli Ravenscroft
September 26th 04, 05:16 PM
DRS wrote:
> "Anna Martelli Ravenscroft" > wrote in message
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So,
>>on my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
>>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on
>>things like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>
>
> The importance of the whey protein shake is that since it's whey protein and
> it's liquid it's more quickly digested than any other kind of protein. This
> matters most in the post-workout window. It's relatively unimportant the
> rest of the time. Protein shakes outside the window are for convenience,
> nothing more.
>

Kewl. Thanks for the clear explanation. So, if I'm reading you and Lyle
correctly - yeah - keep the protein up on offdays too. And protein
shakes are okay for convenient protein on offdays, but important for
quick uptake post-workout.

Tonight, I'm making pasta for "firsts" for us both, and I'm having lamb
for seconds, while he's only having firsts. And I had a can of tuna as
an afternoon snack. I'm working on it... Just gotta get into the habit
of thinking protein first on my snacks.

Annah

Lee Michaels
September 26th 04, 05:41 PM
"Anna Martelli Ravenscroft" > wrote in message
...
> DRS wrote:
> > "Anna Martelli Ravenscroft" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >
> >>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So,
> >>on my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
> >>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on
> >>things like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
> >
> >
> > The importance of the whey protein shake is that since it's whey protein
and
> > it's liquid it's more quickly digested than any other kind of protein.
This
> > matters most in the post-workout window. It's relatively unimportant
the
> > rest of the time. Protein shakes outside the window are for
convenience,
> > nothing more.
> >
>
> Kewl. Thanks for the clear explanation. So, if I'm reading you and Lyle
> correctly - yeah - keep the protein up on offdays too. And protein
> shakes are okay for convenient protein on offdays, but important for
> quick uptake post-workout.
>
> Tonight, I'm making pasta for "firsts" for us both, and I'm having lamb
> for seconds, while he's only having firsts. And I had a can of tuna as
> an afternoon snack. I'm working on it... Just gotta get into the habit
> of thinking protein first on my snacks.
>
> Annah
>

A little hint Ann- ahh.You are obviously a food person. For the non food
types, we think in terms of PROTEIN!!! (or carbs, fat, etc).

The whole act of thinking I need 35 grams of protein here gets you in the
proper mode (mood?) to get the protein in there.

Which is probably what the NON-FOOD types just go for a shake. They don't
want to bother wiith food prep when a shake will take care of the protein
needs.

John M. Williams
September 26th 04, 05:49 PM
Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>
>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout.

Wouldn't hurt to have one before workout, too, particularly if you
work out in the mornings or haven't had a substantial protein meal in
a while. The studies support that. <cue Lyle wanting to argue that
fact, again> And you'll want the whey mixed with highly glycemic
carbohydrates. Dextrose/maltodextrin is nice, but sucrose (table
sugar) will do.

>Should I have a
>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...

You can use the whey if you want, particularly if you aren't using any
other protein source, but you should mix it with other solid food to
slow absorption through the gut and skip the highly glycemic carbs.
For the most part, though, if you have something like tuna to eat and
don't mind eating it, using whey on "off days" is wasting money.

Anna Martelli Ravenscroft
September 26th 04, 06:24 PM
John M. Williams wrote:
> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>
>>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout.
>
>
> Wouldn't hurt to have one before workout, too, particularly if you
> work out in the mornings or haven't had a substantial protein meal in
> a while. The studies support that. <cue Lyle wanting to argue that
> fact, again> And you'll want the whey mixed with highly glycemic
> carbohydrates. Dextrose/maltodextrin is nice, but sucrose (table
> sugar) will do.

Actually I use a supplement by Friliver of Amino Acids and dextrose, and
such, etc. The directions says to take 1 hour before heavy muscle work.
I have that first, then my protein shake afterwards.

>>Should I have a
>>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>
>
> You can use the whey if you want, particularly if you aren't using any
> other protein source, but you should mix it with other solid food to
> slow absorption through the gut and skip the highly glycemic carbs.

Okay. Good to know. Mostly, I don't do the shakes on my off days,
although if I'm having trouble getting enough protein, I was thinking of
starting - but if it goes thru too fast to be properly absorbed...
hrmmm. [sigh]

> For the most part, though, if you have something like tuna to eat and
> don't mind eating it, using whey on "off days" is wasting money.

Thanks for the info. I'll work on the real food habits.

Anna

Lyle McDonald
September 26th 04, 07:07 PM
Tundra Wookie wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Tundra Wookie wrote:
>>
>>>"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>Blah blah blah removed
>
>
>>Not that I'm explicitly aware of but I've never looked.
>>Some studies indicate a link between total fat intake and saturated
>
> fat
>
>>intake and testosterone though. Basically, diets too low in either
>
> tend
>
>>to lower testosterone.
>>
>>Lyle
>>
>
> Well, if I remember right, cholesterol is a precursor to test,

Yes, but unless your levels are very low, cholesterol availability per
se is unlikely to be the limiting step for production.

but
> chicken meat is pretty high in it and I can eat that until I puke and
> things are basically status quo, but throw an egg yolk or two a day into
> the mix along with a bunch of whites and suddenly I tend to be a bit...
> horny and I am prone to sebaceous acne. Would love to have a blood
> assays to track this.

Trust me, it's the sat fat.

Lyle

John M. Williams
September 26th 04, 07:18 PM
Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:

>John M. Williams wrote:
>> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>>
>>>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>>>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout.
>>
>>
>> Wouldn't hurt to have one before workout, too, particularly if you
>> work out in the mornings or haven't had a substantial protein meal in
>> a while. The studies support that. <cue Lyle wanting to argue that
>> fact, again> And you'll want the whey mixed with highly glycemic
>> carbohydrates. Dextrose/maltodextrin is nice, but sucrose (table
>> sugar) will do.
>
>Actually I use a supplement by Friliver of Amino Acids and dextrose, and
>such, etc. The directions says to take 1 hour before heavy muscle work.
>I have that first, then my protein shake afterwards.

Pure amino acids before workouts are fine, as long as they are the
EAAs and are in sufficient quantities (about a dozen to thirty grams,
IIRC). The advantage of whey is that it breaks down into constituent
AAs very quickly and has high levels of EAAs, so it's nearly as
effective it just takes a tad longer to be broken down. But if you
want to take pure AAs prior to workouts, that's OK, too.

>>>Should I have a
>>>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>>>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>>
>> You can use the whey if you want, particularly if you aren't using any
>> other protein source, but you should mix it with other solid food to
>> slow absorption through the gut and skip the highly glycemic carbs.
>
>Okay. Good to know. Mostly, I don't do the shakes on my off days,
>although if I'm having trouble getting enough protein, I was thinking of
>starting - but if it goes thru too fast to be properly absorbed...
>hrmmm. [sigh]

Just eat something substantial (i.e., not a single rice cake) with it,
and you'll be fine.

Anna Martelli Ravenscroft
September 26th 04, 09:14 PM
John M. Williams wrote:
> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>
>
>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>
>>>Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>>>>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout.
>>>
>>>
>>>Wouldn't hurt to have one before workout, too, particularly if you
>>>work out in the mornings or haven't had a substantial protein meal in
>>>a while. The studies support that. <cue Lyle wanting to argue that
>>>fact, again> And you'll want the whey mixed with highly glycemic
>>>carbohydrates. Dextrose/maltodextrin is nice, but sucrose (table
>>>sugar) will do.
>>
>>Actually I use a supplement by Friliver of Amino Acids and dextrose, and
>>such, etc. The directions says to take 1 hour before heavy muscle work.
>>I have that first, then my protein shake afterwards.
>
>
> Pure amino acids before workouts are fine, as long as they are the
> EAAs and are in sufficient quantities (about a dozen to thirty grams,
> IIRC). The advantage of whey is that it breaks down into constituent
> AAs very quickly and has high levels of EAAs, so it's nearly as
> effective it just takes a tad longer to be broken down. But if you
> want to take pure AAs prior to workouts, that's OK, too.
>
>
>>>>Should I have a
>>>>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>>>>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>>>
>>>You can use the whey if you want, particularly if you aren't using any
>>>other protein source, but you should mix it with other solid food to
>>>slow absorption through the gut and skip the highly glycemic carbs.
>>
>>Okay. Good to know. Mostly, I don't do the shakes on my off days,
>>although if I'm having trouble getting enough protein, I was thinking of
>>starting - but if it goes thru too fast to be properly absorbed...
>>hrmmm. [sigh]
>
>
> Just eat something substantial (i.e., not a single rice cake) with it,
> and you'll be fine.

Oh yum. Rice cakes. They're really good with salmon cream cheese and
cheddar cheese on top, then browned in the toaster oven. All crunchy and
creamy and gooey and yummy.... I suppose that does kinda defeat the
intended purpose though, huh... ;-)

Anna

John M. Williams
September 27th 04, 01:00 AM
Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>John M. Williams wrote:
>> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>>>Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>>>>>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout.
>>>>
>>>>Wouldn't hurt to have one before workout, too, particularly if you
>>>>work out in the mornings or haven't had a substantial protein meal in
>>>>a while. The studies support that. <cue Lyle wanting to argue that
>>>>fact, again> And you'll want the whey mixed with highly glycemic
>>>>carbohydrates. Dextrose/maltodextrin is nice, but sucrose (table
>>>>sugar) will do.
>>>
>>>Actually I use a supplement by Friliver of Amino Acids and dextrose, and
>>>such, etc. The directions says to take 1 hour before heavy muscle work.
>>>I have that first, then my protein shake afterwards.
>>
>> Pure amino acids before workouts are fine, as long as they are the
>> EAAs and are in sufficient quantities (about a dozen to thirty grams,
>> IIRC). The advantage of whey is that it breaks down into constituent
>> AAs very quickly and has high levels of EAAs, so it's nearly as
>> effective it just takes a tad longer to be broken down. But if you
>> want to take pure AAs prior to workouts, that's OK, too.
>>
>>>>>Should I have a
>>>>>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>>>>>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>>>>
>>>>You can use the whey if you want, particularly if you aren't using any
>>>>other protein source, but you should mix it with other solid food to
>>>>slow absorption through the gut and skip the highly glycemic carbs.
>>>
>>>Okay. Good to know. Mostly, I don't do the shakes on my off days,
>>>although if I'm having trouble getting enough protein, I was thinking of
>>>starting - but if it goes thru too fast to be properly absorbed...
>>>hrmmm. [sigh]
>>
>> Just eat something substantial (i.e., not a single rice cake) with it,
>> and you'll be fine.
>
>Oh yum. Rice cakes. They're really good with salmon cream cheese and
>cheddar cheese on top, then browned in the toaster oven. All crunchy and
>creamy and gooey and yummy.... I suppose that does kinda defeat the
>intended purpose though, huh... ;-)

I mentioned rice cakes because there tend to be some well-defined
characteristics associated with people who are willing to eat organic
styrofoam. Those characteristics tend to include preconceived notions
about diet and fitness which have a lot to do with things like
sprouts, and yoga, and crystals, and pilates, and very little to do
with scientific fact.

That wasn't intended as a shot at you just at rice cakes.

Elzinator
September 27th 04, 01:41 PM
Anna Martelli Ravenscroft > wrote in message >...
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
> > TheTortoise wrote:
> >
> >> Anna Martelli Ravenscroft asked a question in a thread I was reading
> >> recently that I've also been wondering about - does the 1 g/lb protein
> >> guideline relax on non-lifting days?
>
> Thanks for reposting this!
> >>
> >> Didn't seem like anyone answered that question, so I thought I'd post
> >> it out front.
> >>
> >
> > Protein synthesis is ongoing from a few hours after the end of the
> > workout to somwhere between 24-36 hours (when it's back to baseline).
> > Assuming you are lifting 3X/week, you should be ensuring adequate
> > protein intake daily. It's conceivable, I suppose that you could lower
> > protein if you were only lifting 2X/week (say Mon/Fri) but why bother?
>
>
> I swear, I work harder at tracking my eating than I do at the damn
> lifting... (Trying to not overdo calories while getting sufficient
> protein while cooking for a pasta junkie...)
>
> So, for me it's not a matter of "lowering" protein, so much as wondering
> if I have to push every day to keep my protein up, or if I can "rest" on
> that on my rest-days... ;-)
>
> But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
> my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
> protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
> like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...

Protein timing is not as critical on non-workout days, but you should
still try and aim for adequate protein on a daily basis. Optimally,
sources should be from whole foods, but if you find that you can't
intake an adequate amount, you can supplement it with a protein shake.
However, a blend of protein sources would be best: whey, casein and/or
albumin. Whey is absorbed quiickly, unless you add fat and carbs to
it. Therefore, some of the whey if taken by itself may be oxidized
(with some converted to glucose in the liver and some topping off the
amino acid pool).

Blade
September 27th 04, 07:00 PM
<snip>
>
>But it sounds like I need to keep my protein up every day. Okay. So, on
>my workout days, I use a shake right after workout. Should I have a
>protein shake on my off days too? Or should I be focusing more on things
>like eating tuna (the "realfood" approach) as a snack...
>
>Anna
>
It is important to have protein on workout and non workout days.
Remember, it is the non workout days that you are actually building
muscle and your body needs the protein. The workout days are when you
tear down the muscle, triggering growth for the non workout days.
That is why overtraining can slow down muscle growth - the body needs
time to recover and grow.

By the way, I drink 40 gram whey protein shake after each workout
(with 2 gram of creatine and 5 gram L-Glutamine). I also drink 40
grams each morning so that it is ingested into the body fast after the
long night of fasting. Faster then egg protein in the AM.