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Aberrant
September 29th 04, 07:59 PM
I'm looking at a regular schedule something like this.

Day 1 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
aerobic exercise
Day 2 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, full body workout with
weights
Day 3 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
aerobic exercise
Day 4 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks
Day 5 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
Day 6 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
Day 7 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food

I fully realize this isn't a smart way to train, I don't think the
theory of a cut/bulk phase can be applied on this short a time frame,
but I don't know. The reason I'm considering doing this is because of
disease, I have to frequently clean out my digestive system, but at
the same time exercise is important and I'd like to limit the amount
of muscle loss. Notice I said limit the amount of loss not gain,
although if I could gain on this program that would be great.

Interested in any opinions how this could be improved, possible
dangers, how my body is likely to react, etc.

Adam Fahy
September 29th 04, 08:06 PM
Aberrant wrote:

> I'm looking at a regular schedule something like this.
>
> Day 1 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
> aerobic exercise
> Day 2 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, full body workout with
> weights
> Day 3 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
> aerobic exercise
> Day 4 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks
> Day 5 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
> Day 6 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
> Day 7 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
>
> I fully realize this isn't a smart way to train, I don't think the
> theory of a cut/bulk phase can be applied on this short a time frame,
> but I don't know. The reason I'm considering doing this is because of
> disease, I have to frequently clean out my digestive system, but at
> the same time exercise is important and I'd like to limit the amount
> of muscle loss. Notice I said limit the amount of loss not gain,
> although if I could gain on this program that would be great.
>
> Interested in any opinions how this could be improved, possible
> dangers, how my body is likely to react, etc.

I can't see how this is a smart way to do /anything/. What medical
condition do you have that necessitates you fasting 3x a week?


-Adam

Hugh Beyer
September 30th 04, 12:54 AM
(Aberrant) wrote in
om:

> I'm looking at a regular schedule something like this.
>
> Day 1 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
> aerobic exercise
> Day 2 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, full body workout with
> weights
> Day 3 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks, 30 minutes light
> aerobic exercise
> Day 4 - 3 full high protein meals with snacks
> Day 5 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
> Day 6 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
> Day 7 - Fast, juice, tea, water: no solid food
>
> I fully realize this isn't a smart way to train, I don't think the
> theory of a cut/bulk phase can be applied on this short a time frame,
> but I don't know. The reason I'm considering doing this is because of
> disease, I have to frequently clean out my digestive system, but at
> the same time exercise is important and I'd like to limit the amount
> of muscle loss. Notice I said limit the amount of loss not gain,
> although if I could gain on this program that would be great.
>
> Interested in any opinions how this could be improved, possible
> dangers, how my body is likely to react, etc.
>

Why no workout on day 4?

Hugh


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One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
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Aberrant
September 30th 04, 09:16 AM
Hugh Beyer > wrote in message >...
> Why no workout on day 4?

Because I don't think fasting is going to be a good time to also
recover from a heavy workout. I wanted a few days of good food for
that.

Aberrant
September 30th 04, 09:20 AM
Adam Fahy > wrote in message
> I can't see how this is a smart way to do /anything/. What medical
> condition do you have that necessitates you fasting 3x a week?

It's not, it's a single 3 day fast. I'm thinking 2 days might be
better though.

It's an invasive pathogen in my chest and abdomen that seems to like
food as much as I do. Theres a big drop in the pain when I have
nothing in my digestive system.

I'm just wondering what people's opinions are on what this kind of
routine is likely to do.

Helgi Briem
September 30th 04, 10:30 AM
On 30 Sep 2004 01:20:07 -0700, (Aberrant)
wrote:

>Adam Fahy > wrote in message
>> I can't see how this is a smart way to do /anything/. What medical
>> condition do you have that necessitates you fasting 3x a week?
>
>It's not, it's a single 3 day fast. I'm thinking 2 days might be
>better though.

Well, with fasting definitely shorter is better. About 4 hours
is good.

>It's an invasive pathogen in my chest and abdomen that seems to like
>food as much as I do. Theres a big drop in the pain when I have
>nothing in my digestive system.

An "invasive pathogen in my chest and abdomen that seems to like
food as much as I do"????? Have you been watching the Alien
films too often? Where did you get this diagnosis from?
The Internet School of Hypochondriac Medicine?

>I'm just wondering what people's opinions are on what this kind of
>routine is likely to do.

Make you very, very sick and weak?

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

"Don't worry about it, son. God is just messing with your head."

Johnny
September 30th 04, 02:43 PM
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:06:11 GMT, Adam Fahy >
wrote:


>
>I can't see how this is a smart way to do /anything/. What medical
>condition do you have that necessitates you fasting 3x a week?
>
>
>-Adam

I totally agree w/ Adam. What does your doctor tell you exactly is the
condition you are dealing with? What ARE the pathogens? If you have a
parasitic element, that is quite treatable...treat it! If on the other
hand you have a condition that is microbial....treat it and don't
workout while you are undergoing treatment. There is no need to lessen
your body's defenses at that point.
If you want to get strong; fasting to that extent is NOT a methodology
to accomplish your goal...it IS a short cut to serious problems if
coupled with microbial infection untreated.
If you want to get strong follow a sensible diet and powerlift w/ the
three events coupled with aerobic exercise on off days or Olympic lift
for the full 5 day classic cycle....basic stuff.......there ain't NO
short-cuts. Do not practice self destructive activities even if they
"feel good". Sound and sensible diet wins the day every time when a
guy works out progressively harder and harder. But the most important
thing is consistency! Even minute progress is more desirable to lack
of consistency! And depriving your body of nutrients while stressing
it is certainly foolish because it's unproductive.
Religious folks pray when they fast...they don't skip rope or bench
press! For your on-going health and well being don't mix the two to
the degree you are. - Moderation in all things.


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Aberrant
September 30th 04, 08:49 PM
Johnny > wrote in message
> I totally agree w/ Adam. What does your doctor tell you exactly is the
> condition you are dealing with? What ARE the pathogens? If you have a
> parasitic element, that is quite treatable...treat it! If on the other
> hand you have a condition that is microbial....treat it and don't
> workout while you are undergoing treatment. There is no need to lessen
> your body's defenses at that point.

Well, $20,000+ in medical costs, dozens of doctors, all kinds of
specialists, a million tests, a year of steadily increasing pain, and
the BEST answer I've ever got was "I dunno, give it time". Time is
making me sicker, I've tried every drug any idiot doctor could think
of prescribing and IM OUT OF ****ING OPTIONS. Sitting on my ass,
eating healthy and not exercising so I can "recover" has just brought
slow and steady pain crawling up through my chest. I've given up on
medical science, I'm not going to argue it, but doctors know NOTHING
about health or nutrition, they're SALESMEN for drug companies, they
make me sick, literally and figuratively.

And as for the asshole that made the derisive hypochondriac statement:
go **** yourself. I know what the words invasive and pathogen mean. My
disease is communicable, I'm not the only one going through this. I'm
a twenty something that snowboards, rollerblades, bikes, lifts
weights, I never get sick more than once every 2 years, I don't have a
stressed/anxious personality and I should NOT be hooked up to a
****ing heart machine in the prime of my life.

> If you want to get strong; fasting to that extent is NOT a methodology
> to accomplish your goal...it IS a short cut to serious problems if
> coupled with microbial infection untreated.

I don't want to get strong, I want to get healthy. I was hoping to not
lose a huge amount of muscle mass doing it.

> If you want to get strong follow a sensible diet and powerlift w/ the
> three events coupled with aerobic exercise on off days or Olympic lift
> for the full 5 day classic cycle....basic stuff.......there ain't NO
> short-cuts.

Look, I know how to train, I've been doing it and reading about it
since my teens.

> of consistency! And depriving your body of nutrients while stressing
> it is certainly foolish because it's unproductive.

I drink a lot of fresh vegetable juice while fasting and get a lot
unrefined sea salt, flax/hemp/whatever oil. Lack of nutrients isn't an
issue, especially considering my diet for most of the week consists of
low/no sugar and is varied and healthy (mostly raw veggies and fish,
no junk food, ever).

> Religious folks pray when they fast...they don't skip rope or bench
> press! For your on-going health and well being don't mix the two to
> the degree you are. - Moderation in all things.

That's exactly the line of thinking I've been following for a year
now, it's killing me.

This hasn't really answered the main question I've tried to ask, so
I'll rephrase: Whats the shortest amount of time you can use to switch
between cut/bulk phases? I'm assuming a week isn't enough for your
body to switch, what is? 2 weeks? 2 months? 6 months?

Helgi Briem
October 1st 04, 10:35 AM
On 30 Sep 2004 12:49:19 -0700, (Aberrant)
wrote:

>Well, $20,000+ in medical costs, dozens of doctors, all kinds of
>specialists, a million tests, a year of steadily increasing pain, and
>the BEST answer I've ever got was "I dunno, give it time". Time is
>making me sicker, I've tried every drug any idiot doctor could think
>of prescribing and IM OUT OF ****ING OPTIONS. Sitting on my ass,
>eating healthy and not exercising so I can "recover" has just brought
>slow and steady pain crawling up through my chest. I've given up on
>medical science, I'm not going to argue it, but doctors know NOTHING
>about health or nutrition, they're SALESMEN for drug companies, they
>make me sick, literally and figuratively.

I'd say it was more likely to be fasting and eating an unbalanced
and inadequate diet while overtraining. But whatever. You
don't say anything about what's wrong with you. Slowly
wasting away from an undisclosed "pathogen" is not the time
to be on a starvation diet.

>And as for the asshole that made the derisive hypochondriac
>statement: go **** yourself.

That would be me. I did not mean to say that you were
a hypochondriac, but there are a lot of stupid websites
out there thatfoster hypochondria by offering completely
baseless information on nutrition and disease.

>I know what the words invasive and pathogen mean.

So do I. I'm a biologist and formerly worked in a clinical
microbiology lab. These are very general words that in
no way constitute a diagnosis.

>My disease is communicable,

Which one would that be?

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

"Don't worry about it, son. God is just messing with your head."

Aberrant
October 1st 04, 12:13 PM
"Helgi Briem" > wrote in message ...
> I'd say it was more likely to be fasting and eating an unbalanced
> and inadequate diet while overtraining. But whatever.

And you'd be wrong, I've been on 2 fasts for less than 3 days in my
life. I've never overtrained, I get 2 days minimum rest after every
heavy workout. I stopped training because I thought it would help me
recover. THat didn't work out so well, it's been a year.

> don't say anything about what's wrong with you. Slowly
> wasting away from an undisclosed "pathogen" is not the time
> to be on a starvation diet.

I'm not wasting away, I'm losing muscle mass due to an inactive
lifestyle and maintaining weight because I'm putting on fat at the
same time. Thanks for taking this thread where I didn't want it to go.
You want to know what I think it is? Fine, I think it's a fungal
overgrowth, most likely of the candida family but not albicans, caused
by poor diet and excessive antibiotic use. Don't ****ing push me on my
medical history, I'm smarter than the average bear and I know how to
do research. Don't make the mistake of thinking this isn't my #1
priority, that I haven't analyzed my condition objectively, or that I
haven't found doctors that agree with me.

The way to treat this kind of infection is to starve it, since asshole
doctors, with help from our wonderful food industry have immunized all
bacteria and fungus against any drug treatments. It eats carbs, mostly
simple carbs. It's impossible and unhealthy to eat 0 carbs, I also
notice if I flush my digestive tract for at least 24 hours it makes me
feel better for several more days before the pain starts to come back
and my digestion goes downhill. If you know anything about the
condition you'll know why this is. So a high protein diet followed by
periodic flush/fast seems to make sense. I'm trying to figure out the
best way to do it that includes excercise, which also helps the pain.
I don't want your opinion on any of this medical stuff, I want to know
how short a cut/bulk phase could possibly be if someone wanted to push
it to the absolute shortest time frame possible, and how regular fasts
might fit into an excercise program. 3 day fast is maybe too long, 2
might be better but I need at least 24 hours to clear everything out.
Also, a "fast" includes a lot of vegetable juice, oils, and tea, I'm
not starving my body of nutrients, just of whole food and carbs.

> >And as for the asshole that made the derisive hypochondriac
> >statement: go **** yourself.
>
> That would be me. I did not mean to say that you were
> a hypochondriac, but there are a lot of stupid websites
> out there thatfoster hypochondria by offering completely
> baseless information on nutrition and disease.

Yeah, there are, I've read them all and a lot are ****e. But again, if
you know anything about the condition I think I have, you would know
that most doctors pass their patients off to psychiatrists. I'm real
touchy when it comes to people insinuating this "disease" is in my
head. This is why I don't see doctors anymore: they made me sick and
it's only a matter of time before I kill one of them if I continue to
see them, and while that might be a public service my prison term
would be detrimental to my recovery.

The line of thinking you're displaying is both common and sad. I used
to put my trust in doctors and ignore "natural" medicine too. Then
doctors destroyed my body with drugs treating what was probably a
minor problem they didn't bother to diagnose first. Then I started
reading all kinds of crazy websites that said stuff like gallbladder
surgery is unnecessary and you can flush out gallstones with olive oil
and epsom salt. 6 months ago I would have said bull****, 2 days ago I
passed 50 gallstones. Do you think a surgeon will tell a potential
gallbladder surgery victim this? Medical science isn't the end of
knowledge, only the end of the pursuit of more knowledge.

> >I know what the words invasive and pathogen mean.
>
> So do I. I'm a biologist and formerly worked in a clinical
> microbiology lab. These are very general words that in
> no way constitute a diagnosis.

Gee thanks, maybe you can diagnose me.

> >My disease is communicable,
>
> Which one would that be?

I'M GUESSING I DONT KNOW. What should I do? Sit here and feel the pain
spread up through my chest as the months go by? I'm trying different
ways of treating it. Right now it's a low carb, high fibre/protein
diet with lots of raw veggies, and excercise. I already tried the
"swallow every drug in sight" plan suggested by the doctors.

I remember what it felt like to be strong and healthy. It's only
recently I've given up on doctors, now I'm healing myself with my mind
and my food. I have a ****load of willpower and when you're 25 with
stabbing chest pains thats a good motivator. If I can get strong again
I can get healthy again, I'm sure of that.

I'm asking you to get off your high horse and HELP ME, cause I need
it. I've told you what conditions I need to train under, so what kind
of schedule do YOU think I should follow and what kind of excercise
should I get? I'm looking for ideas and information to base my
decision on, the only thing that's obvious is that sitting on my ass
and "resting" so I can recover is making me sicker.

Johnny
October 1st 04, 04:50 PM
On 30 Sep 2004 12:49:19 -0700, (Aberrant)
wrote:
Oh boy...you have your hands full there....to answer your question: I
would say about 10days-two weeks.
>
>This hasn't really answered the main question I've tried to ask, so
>I'll rephrase: Whats the shortest amount of time you can use to switch
>between cut/bulk phases? I'm assuming a week isn't enough for your
>body to switch, what is? 2 weeks? 2 months? 6 months?

I think I can understand your frustration. My mother is still alive
and she is suffering from parkinson's but the docs made error after
error. The whole gambit of docs from the VA - through neuro
specialists in Europe.....the Euro's got it right however.
Do you think this could possibly be neurological in origin? The reason
I ask is the unknown pain....you used the expression "pathogens" so I
made a jump that you had something organic outside the body's whole
state....but have you investigated neurotoxic and or neurologic
possablilities?....just a thought...

Best of luck, pal.; honestly....you obviously have been through the
wringer.


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Hugh Beyer
October 2nd 04, 04:22 AM
(Aberrant) wrote in
om:

> I don't want your opinion on any of this medical stuff, I want to know
> how short a cut/bulk phase could possibly be if someone wanted to push
> it to the absolute shortest time frame possible, and how regular fasts
> might fit into an excercise program. 3 day fast is maybe too long, 2
> might be better but I need at least 24 hours to clear everything out.
>

Lyle, Resident Expert, has said he thinks 2 days is a minimum length of time
for your metabolism to turn around, so a cycle shouldn't be shorter than
that. There are a lot of cyclical diets which do a 5-day cut with a 2-day
refeed of some sort--I've been happy with this.

But I wouldn't worry about that much if I were you. Get your lifting in, 2x
week without overdoing it, and jigger everything else to deal with your
condition. If you need a longer fast, stretch it out. If you need a shorter
fast, just do it--you're not resetting your metabolism, you're cleaning out
your digestive system after all.

And don't push the weights while you're dealing with this. Your goal is
maintenance, or maintenance plus a little, not major gains.

Hugh


--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.