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View Full Version : OT - NY Times on "Curves" gym and politics


Steve Freides
September 30th 04, 02:41 PM
Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
Ethicist column:

>! I am in my month's trial membership at the fitness chain Curves,
>! and I love it. I must decide whether to sign up for a year, and
>! I've learned that the owner of the company financially supports
>! pro-life efforts, whereas I am pro-choice. Do I have a duty to
>! give up my Curves membership? Louise Dustrude, Friday
>! Harbor, Wash.
>
> It depends: which do you value more, your reproductive rights
> or your figure? If the former, clean out your locker. You won't
> be alone. I've received queries from many women who are
> similarly conflicted. They love that Curves offers a great
> workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
> owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
> but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
> abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
> organizations.

-snip-

You can read the entire thing - I think for free because it's still the
current issue of the magazine - at http://www.nytimes.com and search on
"ethicist" - this is the first hit that comes up. Or try this direct
link: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/26/magazine/26ETHICIST.html (I
think the site makes you pick a username and a password, though, if you
don't have one already.)

Nothing particularly unique about the situation but, since it's a gym, I
thought I'd mention it here. I think it's a naive question in the first
place and I don't agree with the answer given. I think questions like
this are matters of degree, not "either/or."

Steve "reads the Sunday NY Times Magazine every week" Freides
http://www.kbnj.com

Tiger Hillside
September 30th 04, 02:58 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:41:17 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
>politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
>Ethicist column:
>
>>! I am in my month's trial membership at the fitness chain Curves,
>>! and I love it. I must decide whether to sign up for a year, and
>>! I've learned that the owner of the company financially supports
>>! pro-life efforts, whereas I am pro-choice. Do I have a duty to
>>! give up my Curves membership? Louise Dustrude, Friday
>>! Harbor, Wash.
>>
>> It depends: which do you value more, your reproductive rights
>> or your figure? If the former, clean out your locker. You won't
>> be alone. I've received queries from many women who are
>> similarly conflicted. They love that Curves offers a great
>> workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
>> owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
>> but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
>> abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
>> organizations.
>
>-snip-
>
>You can read the entire thing - I think for free because it's still the
>current issue of the magazine - at http://www.nytimes.com and search on
>"ethicist" - this is the first hit that comes up. Or try this direct
>link: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/26/magazine/26ETHICIST.html (I
>think the site makes you pick a username and a password, though, if you
>don't have one already.)
>
>Nothing particularly unique about the situation but, since it's a gym, I
>thought I'd mention it here. I think it's a naive question in the first
>place and I don't agree with the answer given. I think questions like
>this are matters of degree, not "either/or."

I thought that the answer was a "degree", not "either/or". Two
paragraphs down from your quote we find:

"It would be overly fastidious to shun a pizzeria whose owner annually
donates $5 to the Cellphones for Parrots Foundation, for example, but
Heavin's hefty contributions have hefty consequences. Similarly, your
monthly gym fees add up to indirect support for a cause you disdain."

Dally
September 30th 04, 03:01 PM
Steve Freides wrote:

> Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
> politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
> Ethicist column:

I'd been hearing this in other groups. It's related to the idea that
people shop at places where they like the owner. This is confused with
the concept of boycotting places where they don't like what management
is doing.

I think it takes it beyond the next level when you start boycotting
places based on what management does with the profits. Too many people
get hurt in the process: Curves is a franchise, for example, and the
franchisee may have less objectionable politics. Furthermore it
employees poor people, some property owner gets rent from an aging
strip-mall complex, property taxes get paid to support the schools...
it seems to me that more damage would be done to the community than done
to the Pro-Life movement (or whatever.)

I think it's fine to consider it in the mix, but it shouldn't be a
deciding factor, but just one consideration. I don't buy pizza at
Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza because a local pizza
parlor's owner coaches my kid's Ultimate Frisbee team as a volunteer
activity. I want to specifically support that way more than I want to
punish the Dominos owner for being a putz. I do not know what ideology
drives the discretionary spending of the local pizza parlor guy and
don't intend to ask.

To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.

Dally

Lee Michaels
September 30th 04, 03:14 PM
"Dally" > wrote
>
> To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
> to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
> bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
> it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
> myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>
It ain't that complicated.

Priced a BMW or Benz lately??

The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.

Complete with "sticker shock" prices.

Dally
September 30th 04, 03:33 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Dally" > wrote
>
>>To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
>>to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
>>bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
>>it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
>>myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>>
>
> It ain't that complicated.
>
> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>
> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>
> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.

As I said, complex. The Jewish-Scot in me might be able to overcome the
injunction never to buy from the Germans... but to overpay? Can't get
past that. :-)

My Dad has worked all his life for General Motors. I ought to buy GM.
My Grandpa fought in the Pacific theater of WW2. I ought not to support
Japan. Many of my peers buy Volvos. I ought (via peer pressure) to buy
more prestigious wheels. But I buy used Toyotas because they're good
value for the money. (However, the one and only time I bought a new car
it was GM. It was also the only car I traded in rather than have it die
of old age.) Which brands you choose to support has a lot to do with
self-identity and personal experience. A whiff of scandel scares off
certain people but brings other people running.

I suspect that the broohaha over pro-life profits is actually designed
to bring in MORE people who are more of their target audience anyway.
If a bunch of fat old pro-life ladies choose to add a Curves visit to
their routine after morning mass, good for them.

Dally, whose mother-in-law in her late 70's goes to Curves

John M. Williams
September 30th 04, 03:53 PM
Dally > wrote:

>Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> "Dally" > wrote
>>
>>>To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
>>>to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
>>>bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
>>>it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
>>>myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>>>
>>
>> It ain't that complicated.
>>
>> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>>
>> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>>
>> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.
>
>As I said, complex. The Jewish-Scot in me might be able to overcome the
>injunction never to buy from the Germans... but to overpay? Can't get
>past that. :-)
>
>My Dad has worked all his life for General Motors. I ought to buy GM.
>My Grandpa fought in the Pacific theater of WW2. I ought not to support
>Japan. Many of my peers buy Volvos. I ought (via peer pressure) to buy
>more prestigious wheels. But I buy used Toyotas because they're good
>value for the money.

You would be better off buying used Volvos. I don't do it for
prestige; I do it because of safety and incredible durability. With
half-decent maintenance, the infrastructure is good for about 200,000
to 300,000 miles.

But I still gotta replace the damned heater blower before it gets
cold.

Tiger Hillside
September 30th 04, 04:12 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:53:52 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>Dally > wrote:
>
>>Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>> "Dally" > wrote
>>>
>>>>To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
>>>>to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
>>>>bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
>>>>it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
>>>>myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It ain't that complicated.
>>>
>>> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>>>
>>> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>>>
>>> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.
>>
>>As I said, complex. The Jewish-Scot in me might be able to overcome the
>>injunction never to buy from the Germans... but to overpay? Can't get
>>past that. :-)
>>
>>My Dad has worked all his life for General Motors. I ought to buy GM.
>>My Grandpa fought in the Pacific theater of WW2. I ought not to support
>>Japan. Many of my peers buy Volvos. I ought (via peer pressure) to buy
>>more prestigious wheels. But I buy used Toyotas because they're good
>>value for the money.
>
>You would be better off buying used Volvos. I don't do it for
>prestige; I do it because of safety and incredible durability. With
>half-decent maintenance, the infrastructure is good for about 200,000
>to 300,000 miles.
>
>But I still gotta replace the damned heater blower before it gets
>cold.

There is a hilarious passage in a very funny book "Shibumi" by
Trevanian (author of "Eiger Sanction"). The main character talks about
buying a Volvo because he figured that any car that ugly had to be
well made. It turned out that it was terrible. The worst thing was
that it never quite died. So he got in the habit of giving the car a
kick each time he parked it. So did his friends. Pretty soon Volvo
bashing swept through Europe and Volvo considered selling a pre-bashed
version.

I have no idea if Volvo makes good cars or not. I assume thaw the
writer had a bad experience and used his soapbox. But the book sure is
funny.

John M. Williams
September 30th 04, 06:15 PM
Tiger Hillside > wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:53:52 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:
>
>>Dally > wrote:
>>
>>>Lee Michaels wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Dally" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>>To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
>>>>>to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
>>>>>bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
>>>>>it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
>>>>>myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It ain't that complicated.
>>>>
>>>> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>>>>
>>>> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>>>>
>>>> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.
>>>
>>>As I said, complex. The Jewish-Scot in me might be able to overcome the
>>>injunction never to buy from the Germans... but to overpay? Can't get
>>>past that. :-)
>>>
>>>My Dad has worked all his life for General Motors. I ought to buy GM.
>>>My Grandpa fought in the Pacific theater of WW2. I ought not to support
>>>Japan. Many of my peers buy Volvos. I ought (via peer pressure) to buy
>>>more prestigious wheels. But I buy used Toyotas because they're good
>>>value for the money.
>>
>>You would be better off buying used Volvos. I don't do it for
>>prestige; I do it because of safety and incredible durability. With
>>half-decent maintenance, the infrastructure is good for about 200,000
>>to 300,000 miles.
>>
>>But I still gotta replace the damned heater blower before it gets
>>cold.
>
>There is a hilarious passage in a very funny book "Shibumi" by
>Trevanian (author of "Eiger Sanction"). The main character talks about
>buying a Volvo because he figured that any car that ugly had to be
>well made. It turned out that it was terrible. The worst thing was
>that it never quite died. So he got in the habit of giving the car a
>kick each time he parked it. So did his friends. Pretty soon Volvo
>bashing swept through Europe and Volvo considered selling a pre-bashed
>version.
>
>I have no idea if Volvo makes good cars or not. I assume thaw the
>writer had a bad experience and used his soapbox. But the book sure is
>funny.

The durability of Swedish Bricks is legend. Mine is 18 years old,
about to turn over 200K, and has been driven for years in a
snow-and-salt environment. No body rust, and the engine runs just
fine.

Last year, it was running badly. It turned out that I did need to
replace a fuel injector gasket. But that was the minor performance
problem. I was embarrassed when the mechanic mentioned what I hadn't
noticed: one of the four spark plug wires was hanging completely
loose.

Aside from their safety-driven design, which is too extensive to
discuss, it has features which might annoy many whiny,
convenience-obsessed Americans, but which prevent you from becoming
your own worst enemy. It's difficult to lock your keys in your car
because the driver's door can be locked from the outside only with the
key; if you push down the lock knob and shut the driver's door, the
knob will pop back up, even if you hold in the latch button in the
outside door handle. And it's difficult to run down your battery by
leaving the headlights on because they go off when you remove the key.
I ran down the battery once because you don't need the keys when the
switch is in the parking-lights-only position, but that takes quite a
few hours. Rather than using warning tones like American cars, Volvo
just makes it very difficult for you to screw up.

And keep in mind that I'm talking about design technology from almost
20 years ago. Over the past five or ten years, Americans seem to have
been fascinated with the seat heaters in the new SUVs. They were
pretty much standard on Volvos 20 years ago …

… which reminds me of another thing I need to fix …

Rural living is good living
September 30th 04, 06:20 PM
>They love that Curves offers a great
>> workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
>> owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
>> but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
>> abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
>> organizations.

And someone would quit a gym because 1 person that makes money off the gym
supports abstinence for kids? How crazy. Some people will find any reason to
quit exercise. Watch out, those crazy pro-lifes, they support life (what a
terrible thing to support). I guess I'd rather be pro-life than pro-death,
though.



Tired of corrupt politicians and busybodies trying to run your life, family,
and property? Want real freedom?
Visit http://www.freestateproject.com

Dally
September 30th 04, 06:33 PM
Rural living is good living wrote:

>>They love that Curves offers a great
>>
>>>workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
>>>owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
>>>but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
>>>abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
>>>organizations.
>
>
> And someone would quit a gym because 1 person that makes money off the gym
> supports abstinence for kids? How crazy. Some people will find any reason to
> quit exercise. Watch out, those crazy pro-lifes, they support life (what a
> terrible thing to support). I guess I'd rather be pro-life than pro-death,
> though.

Yeah, that must be it. All these liberal women are against teen-aged
abstinence. Get real. It's about funding domestic terrorism. The
problem is people shooting at OB/GYNs and bombing clinics and
terrorizing clients.

Abortion is legal everywhere, but nearly impossible to get in practice
in much of the country because of this. 93% of counties in Texas have
no licensed abortion providers. The pro-life may view that as a
victory, but consider the fact that abortions go on anyway and you're
back to unsafe back-alleys.

THAT'S what women don't like to see their payments supporting.

Dally, who prefers abortion "safe, legal & rare"

DebITRC
September 30th 04, 07:22 PM
We rarely know what kinds of causes business owners support--Curves is an
exception because the support is very public. So why boycott them when there
are all kinds of unpublicized supporters of all kinds of causes who take our
money.

That said, I personally boycott when I know something. Heck, I still won't buy
Knotts Berry Farm Jam and my reason for that is at least 20 years past. And do
we buy grapes or not?

deb

..

Tiger Hillside
September 30th 04, 07:22 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:15:15 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

[snip]

>The durability of Swedish Bricks is legend.

I know. And I assume it is justified. I only look at the insides of
cars when I am looking to buy one. I am a rare American in that I see
cars simply as a way to get me and my stuff from one place to another.
I don't care what it looks like (I care what other cars look like), I
don't care how fast it goes as long as it does enough for me, I don't
care about luxury items because I am just in it for the ride.

>Mine is 18 years old,
>about to turn over 200K, and has been driven for years in a
>snow-and-salt environment. No body rust, and the engine runs just
>fine.

Great. I hate fixing a car. Our system is so dependent on them when
yours does not work everything is messed up.


Like I said, I found the passage funny. The notion of "Volvo bashing"
sweeping Europe is funny.

[snip]

John M. Williams
September 30th 04, 11:51 PM
(DebITRC) wrote:

>We rarely know what kinds of causes business owners support--Curves is an
>exception because the support is very public. So why boycott them when there
>are all kinds of unpublicized supporters of all kinds of causes who take our
>money.
>
>That said, I personally boycott when I know something. Heck, I still won't buy
>Knotts Berry Farm Jam and my reason for that is at least 20 years past. And do
>we buy grapes or not?

I boycott Ben & Jerry's.

Lee Michaels
October 1st 04, 12:52 AM
"John M. Williams" > wrote

> (DebITRC) wrote:
>
> >We rarely know what kinds of causes business owners support--Curves is an
> >exception because the support is very public. So why boycott them when
there
> >are all kinds of unpublicized supporters of all kinds of causes who take
our
> >money.
> >
> >That said, I personally boycott when I know something. Heck, I still
won't buy
> >Knotts Berry Farm Jam and my reason for that is at least 20 years past.
And do
> >we buy grapes or not?
>
> I boycott Ben & Jerry's.

Not enough calories for you?? :)

John M. Williams
October 1st 04, 01:42 AM
"Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>
>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>
>> (DebITRC) wrote:
>>
>> >We rarely know what kinds of causes business owners support--Curves is an
>> >exception because the support is very public. So why boycott them when
>> >there are all kinds of unpublicized supporters of all kinds of causes
>> >who take our money.
>> >
>> >That said, I personally boycott when I know something. Heck, I still
>> >won't buy Knotts Berry Farm Jam and my reason for that is at least 20 years past.
>> >And do we buy grapes or not?
>>
>> I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>
>Not enough calories for you?? :)

Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.

Brandon Berg
October 1st 04, 04:45 AM
"Steve Freides" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
> politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
> Ethicist column:
>
>> I've received queries from many women who are
>> similarly conflicted. They love that Curves offers a great
>> workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
>> owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
>> but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
>> abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
>> organizations.

Pro-life I can understand, but...abstinence programs?

--
Brandon Berg
Fix the obvious homonym substitution to reply.

rev
October 1st 04, 11:32 AM
Tiger Hillside > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:15:15 -0400, John M. Williams
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>The durability of Swedish Bricks is legend.
>
> I know. And I assume it is justified. I only look at the insides of
> cars when I am looking to buy one. I am a rare American in that I see
> cars simply as a way to get me and my stuff from one place to another.
> I don't care what it looks like (I care what other cars look like), I
> don't care how fast it goes as long as it does enough for me, I don't
> care about luxury items because I am just in it for the ride.
>
>>Mine is 18 years old,
>>about to turn over 200K, and has been driven for years in a
>>snow-and-salt environment. No body rust, and the engine runs just
>>fine.
>
> Great. I hate fixing a car. Our system is so dependent on them when
> yours does not work everything is messed up.
>
>
> Like I said, I found the passage funny. The notion of "Volvo bashing"
> sweeping Europe is funny.
>
> [snip]
>
>
>

In Australia, Volvo drivers have been the butt of jokes for years "Bloody
Volvo driver". It is based on the notion that they are such safe cars that
anybody that buys one must consider themselves such a bad driver that they
need to be in a very safe car. Even the Volvo ads in .au have taken that on
board in their lastest marketting campaign. It is true though, bloody Volvo
drivers :)

Cheers

Bob

Dally
October 1st 04, 01:11 PM
John M. Williams wrote:

> "Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>
>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>
>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>
>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>
>
> Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.

But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
complex branding market. If you see yourself as a anti-gun-soccer-Mom
who buys ice cream in New England then you've got a lot of choices of
what ice cream to buy and maybe you'll buy the one whose ideology you
know and like, as opposed to Hood or Turkey Hill or some other viable
brand that doesn't get your attention.

I'm just suspicious about these "boycotts" because I suspect they do the
companies more good than harm in the end. In short, any press is good
press.

Dally

John M. Williams
October 1st 04, 04:50 PM
Dally > wrote:

>John M. Williams wrote:
>
>> "Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>
>>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>
>>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>>
>>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>>
>> Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.
>
>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>complex branding market.

Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.

Proton Soup
October 1st 04, 06:43 PM
On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:50:27 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>Dally > wrote:
>
>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>
>>> "Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>>>
>>>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>>>
>>> Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.
>>
>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>complex branding market.
>
>Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
>add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
>Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.

The same people calling for boycotting of one industry will cry bloody
murder when someone else does it and it impacts their own causes.

So just go to your foo-foo exercise club and reward yourself
afterwards with overpriced ice cream. You'll get big twice as fast.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Dally
October 1st 04, 08:24 PM
John M. Williams wrote:

> Dally > wrote:
>
>
>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>>>
>>>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>>>
>>>Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.
>>
>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>complex branding market.
>
>
> Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
> add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
> Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.

But you're the second person to tell me that this week. And the first
one wasn't a big ice cream eater - I doubt she's ever bought a quart of
premium ice cream. Unless you're a secret Feeder IRL you're probably
not a large consumer of premium ice cream quarts, either.

I'm just saying that it's good business to feed these rumors. For every
pro-gun or pro-life or anti-circ or [controversial topic] advocate they
**** off (who maybe wouldn't have bought their product anyway) they win
a few buyers from the other side of the fence.

Dally

John M. Williams
October 1st 04, 08:47 PM
Dally > wrote:

>John M. Williams wrote:
>
>> Dally > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>>>>
>>>>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>>>>
>>>>Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.
>>>
>>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>>complex branding market.
>>
>> Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
>> add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
>> Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.
>
>But you're the second person to tell me that this week. And the first
>one wasn't a big ice cream eater - I doubt she's ever bought a quart of
>premium ice cream. Unless you're a secret Feeder IRL you're probably
>not a large consumer of premium ice cream quarts, either.

I just buy Edy's Dreamery or Häagen-Dazs. Believe it or not, it is
possible to occasionally have ice cream without becoming obese, and
premium pints can limit your intake.

>I'm just saying that it's good business to feed these rumors. For every
>pro-gun or pro-life or anti-circ or [controversial topic] advocate they
>**** off (who maybe wouldn't have bought their product anyway) they win
>a few buyers from the other side of the fence.

And my point is that the left-wing tree-huggers don't have a monopoly
on boycotts.

Preacher
October 1st 04, 08:55 PM
Dally > wrote:

> But you're the second person to tell me that this week. And the first
> one wasn't a big ice cream eater - I doubt she's ever bought a quart of
> premium ice cream. Unless you're a secret Feeder IRL you're probably
> not a large consumer of premium ice cream quarts, either.
>
> I'm just saying that it's good business to feed these rumors. For every
> pro-gun or pro-life or anti-circ or [controversial topic] advocate they
> **** off (who maybe wouldn't have bought their product anyway) they win
> a few buyers from the other side of the fence.

What you are describing has to happen at least some of the time, but I
doubt that most people are that principled in their consumerism. They
purchase what they want; they patronize the places they like or that are
convenient. In that sense, I doubt that most boycotts amount to much on
either side of a controversial issue.

I emphasize 'most' there. I know that a boycott can make a difference.
But in general, my guess is that most don't.

The Queen of Cans and Jars
October 2nd 04, 01:52 AM
Brandon Berg > wrote:

> "Steve Freides" > wrote:
>
> > Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
> > politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
> > Ethicist column:
> >
> >> I've received queries from many women who are
> >> similarly conflicted. They love that Curves offers a great
> >> workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
> >> owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
> >> but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
> >> abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
> >> organizations.
>
> Pro-life I can understand, but...abstinence programs?

what i can't get my mind around is anyone thinking that curves offers "a
great workout."

Dally
October 2nd 04, 02:42 AM
Preacher wrote:
> Dally > wrote:

>>I'm just saying that it's good business to feed these rumors. For every
>>pro-gun or pro-life or anti-circ or [controversial topic] advocate they
>>**** off (who maybe wouldn't have bought their product anyway) they win
>>a few buyers from the other side of the fence.
>
>
> What you are describing has to happen at least some of the time, but I
> doubt that most people are that principled in their consumerism. They
> purchase what they want; they patronize the places they like or that are
> convenient. In that sense, I doubt that most boycotts amount to much on
> either side of a controversial issue.
>
> I emphasize 'most' there. I know that a boycott can make a difference.
> But in general, my guess is that most don't.

Ah, but a lot of what you get with any sort of ad campaign is just pure
name recognition. So you're in the store thinking of buying ice cream
and you recall that Ben & Jerry's is an ice cream brand that you've
heard of lately and you've never heard of Snow's so you buy the one
you've heard of.

Dally

Dally
October 2nd 04, 02:45 AM
John M. Williams wrote:

> Dally > wrote:

> I just buy Edy's Dreamery or Häagen-Dazs. Believe it or not, it is
> possible to occasionally have ice cream without becoming obese, and
> premium pints can limit your intake.

Both good points. I tend to buy Friendly's "Forbidden Chocolate". It's
a full-fat dark chocolate ice cream that I eat in half-cup sized
portions and all is well with my world. (In fact, I have it in the
house for medicinal purposes.)

>>I'm just saying that it's good business to feed these rumors. For every
>>pro-gun or pro-life or anti-circ or [controversial topic] advocate they
>>**** off (who maybe wouldn't have bought their product anyway) they win
>>a few buyers from the other side of the fence.
>
>
> And my point is that the left-wing tree-huggers don't have a monopoly
> on boycotts.

Oh, granted, I had that as a given. What, you thought I didn't think
right-wing gun nuts weren't opinionated and mobilized? :-)

Dally

John Hanson
October 2nd 04, 03:26 AM
On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:50:27 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>Dally > wrote:
>
>>John M. Williams wrote:
>>
>>> "Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>>I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>>>
>>>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>>>
>>> Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.
>>
>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>complex branding market.
>
>Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
>add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
>Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.

I boycott all Pierce Brosnan movies myself.

Brandon Berg
October 2nd 04, 04:07 AM
"John M. Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Dally > wrote:
>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>complex branding market.
>
> Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
> add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
> Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.

Dally's Wendy?

John Hanson
October 2nd 04, 04:10 AM
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:07:05 -0700, "Brandon Berg" >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John M. Williams" > wrote in message
...
>> Dally > wrote:
>>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>>complex branding market.
>>
>> Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
>> add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
>> Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.
>
>Dally's Wendy?
>
Yes...Marsden.

John M. Williams
October 2nd 04, 05:41 AM
"Brandon Berg" > wrote:
>"John M. Williams" > wrote:
>> Dally > wrote:
>>>But once again, their core target market probably sees that as a
>>>positive, i.e., by promoting the "boycott" they win net sales in the
>>>complex branding market.
>>
>> Don't make a big deal out of it, Wendy. I wasn't. My purpose was to
>> add some contrast to the previous poster's comment about boycott of
>> Knott's Berry Farm and table grapes.
>
>Dally's Wendy?

Sssssssshhh! It's a secret!

Lenny Lennerson
October 2nd 04, 07:03 AM
> Yeah, that must be it. All these liberal women are against teen-aged
> abstinence. Get real.

- Truth is, they are. A lot of "pro-choice" groups have crossed the
line from being "pro-choice" to being "pro-abortion". They frothed at
the mouth when sonograms were introduced and the National Organization
for Women offers an "I Just Got An Abortion" T-Shirt targeted towards
teen girls in an attempt to make abortions hip. It's sickening.

> Abortion is legal everywhere, but nearly impossible to get in practice
> in much of the country because of this. 93% of counties in Texas have
> no licensed abortion providers.

- Haven't the "ultra righ-wing" courts ordered that qualified doctors
*can not* refuse to perform abortions on moral or religious grounds? I
would say that is much worse that having to drive 40 minutes to get
your fetus chopped up and thrown in the trash.

> The pro-life may view that as a
> victory, but consider the fact that abortions go on anyway and you're
> back to unsafe back-alleys.
>
> THAT'S what women don't like to see their payments supporting.

> Dally, who prefers abortion "safe, legal & rare"

Al Dykes
October 2nd 04, 04:27 PM
In article >,
Lenny Lennerson > wrote:
>> Yeah, that must be it. All these liberal women are against teen-aged
>> abstinence. Get real.
>
>- Truth is, they are. A lot of "pro-choice" groups have crossed the
>line from being "pro-choice" to being "pro-abortion". They frothed at
>the mouth when sonograms were introduced and the National Organization
>for Women offers an "I Just Got An Abortion" T-Shirt targeted towards
>teen girls in an attempt to make abortions hip. It's sickening.


"A lot of "pro-choice" groups have crossed the line from being
"pro-choice" to being "pro-abortion".

"They frothed at the mouth when sonograms were introduced"

"National Organization for Women offers an "I Just Got An
Abortion" T-Shirt targeted towards

A "I Just Got An Abortion" T-Shirt exists.


What a steaming pile if unsuppported generalizations. Until you give
some good citations I have to consider this an Urban Legend.

I'm at ground zero for pro-choice movement. Manahttan and Boroklyn. I
see hundreds of Pro-choice and libber's t-shirts, buttons, bumber
stickers, posters, etc, and have for years. I have never seen "I just
got..." on anything.

The two women I know that admit, in private, to having an abortion
talk about how painful the thinking thru of the decision was,
beforehand. Nobody was proud of it or recommended it. It's a personal
choice and to be avoided.

The Pro-Choice people I'm familiar with push the "ABC" program;
"Abstenece, BirthControl, Condoms", to minimize the number of
abortions. Adoption is a big deal also.

Your turn.














As
>


>> Abortion is legal everywhere, but nearly impossible to get in practice
>> in much of the country because of this. 93% of counties in Texas have
>> no licensed abortion providers.
>
>- Haven't the "ultra righ-wing" courts ordered that qualified doctors
>*can not* refuse to perform abortions on moral or religious grounds? I
>would say that is much worse that having to drive 40 minutes to get
>your fetus chopped up and thrown in the trash.
>
>> The pro-life may view that as a
>> victory, but consider the fact that abortions go on anyway and you're
>> back to unsafe back-alleys.
>>
>> THAT'S what women don't like to see their payments supporting.
>
>> Dally, who prefers abortion "safe, legal & rare"


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

October 2nd 04, 06:00 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:41:17 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>Anyone else see the piece in the Sunday NY Times magazine about the
>politics of the owner of Curves gyms? It's a question and answer in the
>Ethicist column:

-snip-

http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/curves.asp

John Hanson
October 2nd 04, 07:13 PM
On 2 Oct 2004 11:27:06 -0400, (Al Dykes) wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >,
>Lenny Lennerson > wrote:
>>> Yeah, that must be it. All these liberal women are against teen-aged
>>> abstinence. Get real.
>>
>>- Truth is, they are. A lot of "pro-choice" groups have crossed the
>>line from being "pro-choice" to being "pro-abortion". They frothed at
>>the mouth when sonograms were introduced and the National Organization
>>for Women offers an "I Just Got An Abortion" T-Shirt targeted towards
>>teen girls in an attempt to make abortions hip. It's sickening.
>
>
> "A lot of "pro-choice" groups have crossed the line from being
> "pro-choice" to being "pro-abortion".
>
> "They frothed at the mouth when sonograms were introduced"
>
> "National Organization for Women offers an "I Just Got An
> Abortion" T-Shirt targeted towards
>
> A "I Just Got An Abortion" T-Shirt exists.
>
>
>What a steaming pile if unsuppported generalizations. Until you give
>some good citations I have to consider this an Urban Legend.
>
>I'm at ground zero for pro-choice movement. Manahttan and Boroklyn. I
>see hundreds of Pro-choice and libber's t-shirts, buttons, bumber
>stickers, posters, etc, and have for years. I have never seen "I just
>got..." on anything.
>
>The two women I know that admit, in private, to having an abortion
>talk about how painful the thinking thru of the decision was,
>beforehand. Nobody was proud of it or recommended it. It's a personal
>choice and to be avoided.
>
>The Pro-Choice people I'm familiar with push the "ABC" program;
>"Abstenece, BirthControl, Condoms", to minimize the number of
>abortions. Adoption is a big deal also.
>
Have you had your head in the sand?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200407\CUL20 040729d.html

Some Planned Parenthood Affiliates Disapprove of 'I Had an Abortion'
T-Shirts
By Melanie Hunter
CNSNews.com Deputy Managing Editor
July 29, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - As more pro-life groups condemn the nation's largest
abortion provider for selling a new t-shirt that states, "I had an
abortion," Planned Parenthood affiliates in three states have publicly
voiced their disapproval for the shirt.

The fact that affiliates in Idaho, North Carolina and South Carolina
object to the shirt's message affirms that most Planned Parenthood
volunteers and employees don't have a true understanding of what the
organization is really about, said Jim Sedlak, executive director of
American Life League's STOPP International.

Brian Lewis, director of public policy for Planned Parenthood Health
Systems of North Carolina, which represents affiliates in North
Carolina and in South Carolina, expressed concern that the t-shirt is
“offending people.”

Rebecca Poedy, executive director of Planned Parenthood of Idaho, said
the purpose of the organization is to “prevent unwanted pregnancy” and
the t-shirts were “a poor decision” that her affiliate does not
support.

Sedlak said most people associated with Planned Parenthood are unaware
of the background of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger.

"Planned Parenthood was founded by a staunch racist who firmly
believed in the eugenics movement. This organization is now the single
largest abortion provider in the country," said Sedlak. "I am positive
that is not well known by Planned Parenthood's supporters and
customers."

Sedlak said the new t-shirt "confirms that the abortion chain lacks
any sense of integrity, tact, and compassion. This shirt's message
celebrates an act of violence that is traumatic for women, and worst
of all, kills an innocent child."

He said "this latest stunt goes right along with the philosophies
which have produced such items as a 'Choice on Earth' holiday card and
a Florida advertisement which said, 'Give the gift that stops
giving...a gift certificate for a holiday vasectomy at Planned
Parenthood.'"

"Apparently, it isn't enough to make a regrettable choice," said
Martha Nolan of Crossroads, a pro-life organization that has sponsored
walks across America for the last 10 years. "Now, abortion advocates
seem to believe that the choice should be displayed with pride."

Nolan said, "They might want to call it 'the T-shirt that sexually
irresponsible males want to see their ex-girlfriend in.'"

She added, "It's difficult to understand how Planned Parenthood can
say that abortion is always a difficult choice, and then encourage
women to wear their 'choice' on their shirt. How about a line of
shirts for men that says, 'My ex-girlfriend got an abortion because I
made her?'"

Crossroads, which was founded in 1994 in Steubenville, Ohio, has
sponsored walks to "witness to the sanctity and dignity of all human
life, from conception until natural death." The group is sponsoring
two walks this year - one from San Francisco and one from Los Angeles.
Both will conclude in Washington, D.C. on Aug. 15.

"Some of the women we come in contact with on the walk have had
abortions and have required a long process of spiritual and
psychological healing through counseling programs, such as Rachel's
Vineyard," said Elizabeth Daub, a two-time walker.

"One of the most flagrant contradictions in Planned Parenthood's
message is revealed by the fact that so many women we meet say, 'I
didn't have a choice.' That's the real tragedy. Women do have a
choice, and the right choice is always life," she said. "Abortion
hurts women. It's that simple.

STOPP officials are willing to pay all expenses to travel to any
Planned Parenthood clinic in the United States to do a one-day
education program for employees and volunteers of the abortion
provider to show them the true nature and history of the organization.

"When people know the truth, they recognize that Planned Parenthood is
not a benevolent healthcare organization, but rather, a lucrative
business that profits from selling sex and aborting babies," said
Sedlak.

Brandon Berg
October 2nd 04, 07:29 PM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> Some Planned Parenthood Affiliates Disapprove of 'I Had an Abortion'
> T-Shirts
> By Melanie Hunter
>
> ...
>
> Sedlak said the new t-shirt "confirms that the abortion chain lacks
> any sense of integrity, tact, and compassion. This shirt's message
> celebrates an act of violence that is traumatic for women, and worst
> of all, kills an innocent child."

Since when does an op-ed with quotes around it constitute news?

--
Brandon Berg
Fix the obvious homonym substitution to reply.

John Hanson
October 2nd 04, 08:00 PM
On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:29:23 -0700, "Brandon Berg" >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>> Some Planned Parenthood Affiliates Disapprove of 'I Had an Abortion'
>> T-Shirts
>> By Melanie Hunter
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Sedlak said the new t-shirt "confirms that the abortion chain lacks
>> any sense of integrity, tact, and compassion. This shirt's message
>> celebrates an act of violence that is traumatic for women, and worst
>> of all, kills an innocent child."
>
>Since when does an op-ed with quotes around it constitute news?

Oh, gee, sorry!

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/pr/040728-abortion-tshirt.html

Statement of Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood Federation
of America

July 28, 2004

Among many items offered in the Planned Parenthood Federation of
America (PPFA) online store is a T-shirt with the message, "I had an
abortion." This shirt was not created by PPFA, but we do offer it in
our store.

The shirt is not a cavalier statement, but a way to challenge the
silence and shame around an experience many women have shared, however
difficult that decision may have been.

One in three American women will have an abortion before the age of
45, and anti-choice extremists are doing everything they can to turn
that choice into a scarlet letter, and ultimately to criminalize this
option. In that effort, some anti-choice activists have publicly
disclosed that they had an abortion, only to cast this option in
shame.

Women who have abortions are the same women who have children, and
they make both of those decisions with thought and heart and moral
deliberation.

As an organization, Planned Parenthood does more to prevent unintended
pregnancy and the need for abortion than any other group. However,
abortion is neither shameful nor dishonorable, and it should remain
safe and legal.

How's that? Sheesh!

Brandon Berg
October 2nd 04, 08:20 PM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:29:23 -0700, "Brandon Berg" >
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>>> Some Planned Parenthood Affiliates Disapprove of 'I Had an Abortion'
>>> T-Shirts
>>> By Melanie Hunter
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Sedlak said the new t-shirt "confirms that the abortion chain lacks
>>> any sense of integrity, tact, and compassion. This shirt's message
>>> celebrates an act of violence that is traumatic for women, and worst
>>> of all, kills an innocent child."
>>
>>Since when does an op-ed with quotes around it constitute news?
>
> Oh, gee, sorry!

That wasn't aimed at you. There was more than enough in there to
substantiate the claim. I was just commenting on the abysmal quality of the
reporting.

--
Brandon Berg
Fix the obvious homonym substitution to reply.

October 2nd 04, 10:09 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:33:37 -0400, Dally > wrote:

-snip-

>Dally, who prefers abortion "safe, legal & rare"

Exactly.

It's awful that abortions are performed for frivolous reasons, e.g.,
nonpreferred gender, after-the-fact birth control, etc. Without
making abortion illegal or forcing a pregnant woman to give her baby
up for adoption (not that adoption is a bad thing), I would support
any reasonable effort to attempt to reduce to 0 the number of
abortions performed for "frivolous" reasons. (I know...what's
"frivolous"?)

OTOH, you're too much of an ideologue for my taste if you wouldn't
permit abortion of a potential human being in cases where there might
well be serious endangerments to the mother's physical or emotional
well-being, e.g., if the pregnancy resulted from rape, and/or if the
child would be born with a very serious disease or deformity. (I
know...what constitutes a disease or derformity sufficiently serious
to justify an abortion?)

Hopefully, we'll all live to see the day when there will be no need
for abortion (or war), but we're not there yet.

In the meantime, I'm not going to ask the owner of my gym whether he
is pro-life or pro-choice.

truegrit
October 2nd 04, 11:30 PM
"Lee Michaels" > wrote in message news:<[email protected]_s53>...
> "Dally" > wrote
> >
> > To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
> > to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
> > bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
> > it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
> > myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
> >
> It ain't that complicated.
>
> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>
> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>
> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.

The way to go is buy used. When I purchased a '98 Jaguar XJR for
$16000 (MSRP >$60,000), a couple right next to me purchased a '98 BMW
7-series for $17,000 with less than 70,000 miles on it.

$17,000 won't even get you close to halfway on a new BMW 7-series or
even close to a new Toyota Camry V-6 these days.

John M. Williams
October 3rd 04, 05:54 AM
DZ > wrote:

>Lee Michaels > wrote:
>> "Dally" > wrote
>>> To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous tie
>>> to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
>>> bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically avoided
>>> it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
>>> myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
>>>
>> It ain't that complicated.
>>
>> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
>>
>> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
>>
>> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.
>
>Some of these are just way overpriced regarless of how much you
>make. It just doesn't scale well with the amount of additional
>comfort. After all cars are for going from point A to B. One can buy
>a sensible well equipped car instead and make a difference in
>someone's life by giving away the remainder.

That's why it's a good idea to buy a used Volvo or Mercedes. Let
someone else absorb the status-symbol value and a huge chunk of the
price. You can then purchase the durability, safety, and a
substantial portion of the niceties at a modest price.

pyridox
October 3rd 04, 10:36 AM
John M. Williams > wrote in message
...
> DZ > wrote:
>
> >Lee Michaels > wrote:
> >> "Dally" > wrote
> >>> To just avoid gyms because the one that fits you best has a tenuous
tie
> >>> to different ideology just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, I've never
> >>> bought a German car. It's not that I loved one and specifically
avoided
> >>> it, it's more like I never put any in the running because I don't see
> >>> myself as a German-car-driver. Branding is a complex thing.
> >>>
> >> It ain't that complicated.
> >>
> >> Priced a BMW or Benz lately??
> >>
> >> The cars are beautiful, fun to drive and look good.
> >>
> >> Complete with "sticker shock" prices.
> >
> >Some of these are just way overpriced regarless of how much you
> >make. It just doesn't scale well with the amount of additional
> >comfort.

it's not just about comfort. it's about performance

i recently bought a BMW and i can't believe i waited this long. it's THAT
good.

i've driven cars that are more comfortable. i've driven cars that are
faster -significantly so, and cheaper

but the total driving experience, the cornering, the quality of the
interior, the road feel, etc.

i also enjoy FUN. and the BMW is much more fun to drive than many other cars
i tried.

i am sure there are better cars, and better BMW's (i can't afford a 7
series, for instance) but the difference IS worth the money, imo

> After all cars are for going from point A to B.

considering how much time we spend in our cars, they are an "environment" we
spend much of our life in. or at least some of us do.


One can buy
> >a sensible well equipped car instead and make a difference in
> >someone's life by giving away the remainder.
>
> That's why it's a good idea to buy a used Volvo or Mercedes. Let
> someone else absorb the status-symbol value and a huge chunk of the
> price. You can then purchase the durability, safety, and a
> substantial portion of the niceties at a modest price.

i bought my BMW used. the cars (after the initial drive off the lot
discount) retain much of their value. they are a pretty good investment in
that respect. the engine isn't even considered broken in on a BMW until it
has 50-75000 miles

whit

spodosaurus
October 3rd 04, 12:39 PM
pyridox wrote:

> considering how much time we spend in our cars, they are an "environment" we
> spend much of our life in. or at least some of us do.

I feel the same way, and include other areas of life that we regularly
do things at. For example, those of us that either work or play on
computers (or both, but hopefully not at the same time) really should
spend the money to make the environment comfortable. A good
multi-adjustable chair, 19" monitor with high refresh rates (or a 17"
TFT), good keyboard and mouse, and when things slow down, upgrade. I've
had clients that have spent so much of their time using a monitor that
was too small and hurt their eyes with a 60hz refresh on a computer with
a gummed up mouse that would chug just doing basic tasks. That's the
exception rather than the rule it seems, when they'd be much happier and
more relaxed with a smooth running more recent and more powerful machine
for only a couple of hundred bucks (and they certainly can afford it).




--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

zxcv
October 3rd 04, 06:15 PM
Dally > wrote in message >...
> I don't buy pizza at
> Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza

That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?

Dally
October 3rd 04, 06:32 PM
zxcv wrote:
> Dally > wrote in message >...
>
>>I don't buy pizza at
>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
>
>
> That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
> can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?

Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
by local small business people.

Or are you disturbed because I kind of like the salty chewy white dough
crusts of Dominos? Weird, I know. That's part of what I get for
growing up in Ann Arbor.

Dally

zxcv
October 4th 04, 01:13 AM
Dally > wrote in message >...
> zxcv wrote:
> > Dally > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>I don't buy pizza at
> >>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
> >
> >
> > That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
> > can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?
>
> Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
> believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
> by local small business people.
>
> Or are you disturbed because I kind of like the salty chewy white dough
> crusts of Dominos? Weird, I know. That's part of what I get for
> growing up in Ann Arbor.
>
> Dally

Well, my post is half in jest. I am just very passionate about pizza.
FWIW I live in the suburbs of NYC.

Hugh Beyer
October 4th 04, 02:12 AM
John Hanson > wrote in
:

> One in three American women will have an abortion before the age of
> 45,

<boggle>

Is that statistic correct?

Hugh


--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.

John Hanson
October 4th 04, 03:34 AM
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 20:12:51 -0500, Hugh Beyer >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson > wrote in
:
>
>> One in three American women will have an abortion before the age of
>> 45,
>
><boggle>
>
>Is that statistic correct?
>
Beats the hell out of me. I was just posting something from Planned
Parenthood's website proving the fact that those T-shirts exist and
that they sell them. I didn't ever read the rest of that ****.

Art S
October 4th 04, 04:29 AM
"Hugh Beyer" > wrote in message
42...
> John Hanson > wrote in
> :
>
> > One in three American women will have an abortion before the age of
> > 45,
>
> <boggle>
>
> Is that statistic correct?
>
> Hugh
>

I don't see that statistic. I can derive the number, but I'm not a statistician,
and I am about 100% certain that I am misusing the statistics enough to
invalidate my result...

Derivation follows:

What I see, looking at http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm,
is that for the past 5 years there have been 20 or less abortions per 1000
females between the ages of 15 and 44 (20 in '99, 17 from 2000 - 2002,
and 16 thru some time in 2003. Multiplying 20 abortions per 1000 females
by 30 years gives a total of 600 abortions per 1000 females. Looking at
the CDC's web site (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031585.htm,
in particular), they note that, in 1990, 56% of the women were having an
abortion for the first time. Applying that number to the 600 abortions
per 1000 females gives 336 women having their first abortion.

Note that this pretends that a woman is equally likely to have an abortion
at any time during her child-bearing years, which is not supported by CDC
statistics.

Art

Dally
October 4th 04, 04:44 AM
Art S wrote:

> "Hugh Beyer" > wrote in message
> 42...
>
>>John Hanson > wrote in
:
>>
>>
>>>One in three American women will have an abortion before the age of
>>>45,
>>
>><boggle>
>>
>>Is that statistic correct?
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>
>
> I don't see that statistic. I can derive the number, but I'm not a statistician,
> and I am about 100% certain that I am misusing the statistics enough to
> invalidate my result...
>
> Derivation follows:
>
> What I see, looking at http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm,
> is that for the past 5 years there have been 20 or less abortions per 1000
> females between the ages of 15 and 44 (20 in '99, 17 from 2000 - 2002,
> and 16 thru some time in 2003. Multiplying 20 abortions per 1000 females
> by 30 years gives a total of 600 abortions per 1000 females. Looking at
> the CDC's web site (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031585.htm,
> in particular), they note that, in 1990, 56% of the women were having an
> abortion for the first time. Applying that number to the 600 abortions
> per 1000 females gives 336 women having their first abortion.
>
> Note that this pretends that a woman is equally likely to have an abortion
> at any time during her child-bearing years, which is not supported by CDC
> statistics.
>
> Art

I'm sure there is a subset of people who get frequent abortions. And
I've got a vague suspicion that the world is better off without their
offspring. But my circle contains women who got caught exactly once in
a situation that they never let themselves get into again. Too young,
wrong man, bad birth control method, or bad fetus. I know one woman who
had her one and only abortion when she was gang-raped (and damn near
killed) at age 18. I know another who got pregnant at age 19 from a
one-night stand when she was a freshmen in college. (20 years later she
wishes she could have a kid, but still is grateful not to have had one
then.) It's easy to judge when you don't know the details. That's why
it's best to leave it up to the woman whose body is on the line.

But I'm awfully parochial - maybe Elzi will tell me that women
everywhere else are popping in for D&Cs once a month. It just isn't my
experience. Abortion is NOT the first choice - but it's a reasonable
choice for the women I know who have had it.

Dally

Hugh Beyer
October 4th 04, 12:41 PM
Dally > wrote in :

> I'm sure there is a subset of people who get frequent abortions. And
> I've got a vague suspicion that the world is better off without their
> offspring. But my circle contains women who got caught exactly once in
> a situation that they never let themselves get into again. Too young,
> wrong man, bad birth control method, or bad fetus. I know one woman who
> had her one and only abortion when she was gang-raped (and damn near
> killed) at age 18. I know another who got pregnant at age 19 from a
> one-night stand when she was a freshmen in college. (20 years later she
> wishes she could have a kid, but still is grateful not to have had one
> then.) It's easy to judge when you don't know the details. That's why
> it's best to leave it up to the woman whose body is on the line.

Sorry, I have no need to judge individual cases, but if the 1 women out of 3
are having abortions I don't have any trouble judging that we have a
societal problem here. 1 in 3 doesn't look like anybody's definition of
"rare".

Hugh


--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.

Art S
October 4th 04, 04:47 PM
"Hugh Beyer" > wrote in message
42...
> Dally > wrote in :
>
> > I'm sure there is a subset of people who get frequent abortions. And
> > I've got a vague suspicion that the world is better off without their
> > offspring. But my circle contains women who got caught exactly once in
> > a situation that they never let themselves get into again. Too young,
> > wrong man, bad birth control method, or bad fetus. I know one woman who
> > had her one and only abortion when she was gang-raped (and damn near
> > killed) at age 18. I know another who got pregnant at age 19 from a
> > one-night stand when she was a freshmen in college. (20 years later she
> > wishes she could have a kid, but still is grateful not to have had one
> > then.) It's easy to judge when you don't know the details. That's why
> > it's best to leave it up to the woman whose body is on the line.
>
> Sorry, I have no need to judge individual cases, but if the 1 women out of 3
> are having abortions I don't have any trouble judging that we have a
> societal problem here. 1 in 3 doesn't look like anybody's definition of
> "rare".
>
> Hugh

If it is a societal issue, it is widespread. From
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00031585.htm:

"In other countries, legal abortion rates range from a high of more than 100
abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age (15-44 years) in the former
Soviet Union to a low of 5 per 1,000 in the Netherlands. The induced
abortion rate in the United States is higher than those reported by Australia,
Canada and Western European countries and lower than those reported by
the former Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and Eastern European countries.
Abortion rates for teenagers are higher in the United States than in most
Western European countries and in some Eastern European countries."

I wonder if that means that we need a fact-finding tour of the Netherlands
to see what is different.

Art

Lucas Buck
October 8th 04, 11:16 AM
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:32:50 -0400, Dally > wrote:

>zxcv wrote:
>> Dally > wrote in message >...
>>
>>>I don't buy pizza at
>>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
>>
>>
>> That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
>> can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?
>
>Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
>believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
>by local small business people.

I hate to disrupt this little delusion, but whether franchised or not, they are
still buying all their component food items and packaging from Domino's
corporate and thereby lining Monaghan's pocket... and the causes he supports.

Lucas Buck
October 8th 04, 11:17 AM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:33:37 -0400, Dally > wrote:

>Rural living is good living wrote:
>
>>>They love that Curves offers a great
>>>
>>>>workout in a woman-friendly setting, and that many
>>>>owner-operators of individual Curves centers are women,
>>>>but they don't like seeing their payments used to support
>>>>abstinence programs and what many regard as pro-life
>>>>organizations.
>>
>>
>> And someone would quit a gym because 1 person that makes money off the gym
>> supports abstinence for kids? How crazy. Some people will find any reason to
>> quit exercise. Watch out, those crazy pro-lifes, they support life (what a
>> terrible thing to support). I guess I'd rather be pro-life than pro-death,
>> though.
>
>Yeah, that must be it. All these liberal women are against teen-aged
>abstinence. Get real. It's about funding domestic terrorism. The
>problem is people shooting at OB/GYNs and bombing clinics and
>terrorizing clients.
>
>Abortion is legal everywhere, but nearly impossible to get in practice
>in much of the country because of this. 93% of counties in Texas have
>no licensed abortion providers.

And anytime you cross a county line in Texas, Rangers search you for RU-486
and steal it from you if you have any.

Lucas Buck
October 8th 04, 11:19 AM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:42:38 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>"Lee Michaels" > wrote:
>>
>>"John M. Williams" > wrote
>>>
>>> (DebITRC) wrote:
>>>
>>> >We rarely know what kinds of causes business owners support--Curves is an
>>> >exception because the support is very public. So why boycott them when
>>> >there are all kinds of unpublicized supporters of all kinds of causes
>>> >who take our money.
>>> >
>>> >That said, I personally boycott when I know something. Heck, I still
>>> >won't buy Knotts Berry Farm Jam and my reason for that is at least 20 years past.
>>> >And do we buy grapes or not?
>>>
>>> I boycott Ben & Jerry's.
>>
>>Not enough calories for you?? :)
>
>Major supporters of Handgun Control, Inc., nka The Brady Campaign.

But they don't own the company anymore; Unilever does.

Haagen-Dasz / Double Rainbow / Rick's Rather Rich is better anyway.

zxcv
October 9th 04, 04:53 PM
Lucas Buck > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:32:50 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>
> >zxcv wrote:
> >> Dally > wrote in message >...
> >>
> >>>I don't buy pizza at
> >>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
> >>
> >>
> >> That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
> >> can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?
> >
> >Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
> >believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
> >by local small business people.
>
> I hate to disrupt this little delusion, but whether franchised or not, they are
> still buying all their component food items and packaging from Domino's
> corporate and thereby lining Monaghan's pocket... and the causes he supports.

Does Monaghan support some questionable causes? Al queda? The
Memorial Man Will Never Fly Society?

Dally
October 9th 04, 05:19 PM
zxcv wrote:
> Lucas Buck > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:32:50 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>zxcv wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dally > wrote in message >...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't buy pizza at
>>>>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
>>>>can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?
>>>
>>>Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
>>>believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
>>>by local small business people.
>>
>>I hate to disrupt this little delusion, but whether franchised or not, they are
>>still buying all their component food items and packaging from Domino's
>>corporate and thereby lining Monaghan's pocket... and the causes he supports.
>
>
> Does Monaghan support some questionable causes? Al queda? The
> Memorial Man Will Never Fly Society?

Tigers.

HTH

Dally, a Red Sox fan

Lucas Buck
October 10th 04, 10:50 AM
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 12:19:38 -0400, Dally > wrote:

>zxcv wrote:
>> Lucas Buck > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>
>>>On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 13:32:50 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>zxcv wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Dally > wrote in message >...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't buy pizza at
>>>>>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That is a very disturbing statement. Where do you live that Dominos
>>>>>can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the local pizzaria?
>>>>
>>>>Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, if that helps you in any way. But I
>>>>believe all of the local Dominos where I live now are franchises owned
>>>>by local small business people.
>>>
>>>I hate to disrupt this little delusion, but whether franchised or not, they are
>>>still buying all their component food items and packaging from Domino's
>>>corporate and thereby lining Monaghan's pocket... and the causes he supports.
>>
>>
>> Does Monaghan support some questionable causes? Al queda? The
>> Memorial Man Will Never Fly Society?
>
>Tigers.
>
>HTH
>
>Dally, a Red Sox fan

Actually, he's a big donor to "pro-Life" causes.

Dally
October 14th 04, 02:03 PM
Lucas Buck wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 12:19:38 -0400, Dally > wrote:
>>zxcv wrote:
>>>>>>Dally > wrote in message >...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't buy pizza at
>>>>>>>Dominos even though I kind of like their pizza
>>>
>>>Does Monaghan support some questionable causes? Al queda? The
>>>Memorial Man Will Never Fly Society?
>>
>>Tigers.
>>
>>HTH
>>
>>Dally, a Red Sox fan
>
>
> Actually, he's a big donor to "pro-Life" causes.

No! Really?

(Did you really think I didn't know that?)

Dally