PDA

View Full Version : NSAIDs and muscle growth


London_Matt
September 30th 04, 04:45 PM
I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.

My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
way?

David Cohen
September 30th 04, 04:48 PM
"London_Matt" > wrote
>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>
> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
> way?

No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.

David

Paul Cassel
September 30th 04, 05:10 PM
David Cohen wrote:
> "London_Matt" > wrote
>
>>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>
>>My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>way?
>
>
> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>

A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?

-paul
--
paul DOT cassel aT
gMail dot COM

Lyle McDonald
September 30th 04, 05:14 PM
Paul Cassel wrote:
> David Cohen wrote:
>
>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>
>>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>
>>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>> way?
>>
>>
>>
>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>
>
> A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
> I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
> does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?

Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.

I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
training.

The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.

Lyle

Tiger Hillside
September 30th 04, 05:24 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Paul Cassel wrote:
>> David Cohen wrote:
>>
>>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>>
>>>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>>
>>>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>
>>
>> A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
>> I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
>> does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?
>
>Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
>crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
>NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>
>I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
>don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
>training.
>
>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.

I have been taking some NSAID for beginning arthritis. I was also
hoping that increased strength would release the joints a bit. Looks
like I have to do some trading off. Sigh.

Lyle McDonald
September 30th 04, 05:26 PM
Tiger Hillside wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:

>>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>
>
> I have been taking some NSAID for beginning arthritis. I was also
> hoping that increased strength would release the joints a bit. Looks
> like I have to do some trading off. Sigh.

As above, just make sure that you don't have a dose in your system
immediately around your workouts. Cohen probably has an idea on the
time course, as in how long before your workout to take it to avoid
problems.

also, are you on fish oils?

Lyle

Lyle

>
>

John M. Williams
September 30th 04, 05:44 PM
"David Cohen" > wrote:
>"London_Matt" > wrote
>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>
>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>> way?
>
>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.

It's a pretty good hepatotoxin.

Tiger Hillside
September 30th 04, 05:52 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:26:09 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
>> > wrote:
>
>>>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>>>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>>
>>
>> I have been taking some NSAID for beginning art hritis.Iwasalso
>> hoping that increased strength would release the joints a bit. Looks
>> like I have to do some trading off. Sigh.
>
>As above, just make sure that you don't have a dose in your system
>immediately around your workouts. Cohen probably has an idea on the
>time course, as in how long before your workout to take it to avoid
>problems.
>
>also, are you on fish oils?

Not as a supplement, I try to have fish several times a week. The
arthritis is just in two joints and has been well controlled with one
Aleve a day. I will look into adding fish oil as a supplement,
especially if I go off the Aleve. It was nice to take it close to the
workout, but I can try 12 hours off.

Proton Soup
September 30th 04, 05:59 PM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Paul Cassel wrote:
>> David Cohen wrote:
>>
>>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>>
>>>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>>
>>>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>
>>
>> A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
>> I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
>> does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?
>
>Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
>crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
>NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>
>I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
>don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
>training.
>
>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>
>Lyle

*wonders if Men's Health people have started reading mfw*

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Dally
September 30th 04, 06:01 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
> crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
> NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>
> I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
> don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
> training.
>
> The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
> dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.

Thanks, Lyle. I just got back from training and was reaching for the
ibuprofin when I saw this. I reached for ice instead.

Dally, pretending not to have sore knees so I don't have to stop running

aj
September 30th 04, 06:49 PM
On 2004-09-30, Dally > wrote:
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
>> Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
>> crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
>> NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>>
>> I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
>> don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
>> training.
>>
>> The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>> dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>
> Thanks, Lyle. I just got back from training and was reaching for the
> ibuprofin when I saw this. I reached for ice instead.
>
> Dally, pretending not to have sore knees so I don't have to stop running

I have to say that the 'pretending' method of injury prevention has not
worked well for me. I tried it with a twinging shoulder and it lead to
umm... bad things.

--
-aj
I'll mess with Texas.

aj
September 30th 04, 06:50 PM
On 2004-09-30, John M Williams > wrote:
> "David Cohen" > wrote:
>>"London_Matt" > wrote
>>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>
>>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>> way?
>>
>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>
> It's a pretty good hepatotoxin.

So are most of the NSAIDs.

--
-aj
I'll mess with Texas.

Lyle McDonald
September 30th 04, 06:52 PM
Tiger Hillside wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:26:09 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:
>>
>>>>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>>>>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>>>
>>>
>>>I have been taking some NSAID for beginning art hritis.Iwasalso
>>>hoping that increased strength would release the joints a bit. Looks
>>>like I have to do some trading off. Sigh.
>>
>>As above, just make sure that you don't have a dose in your system
>>immediately around your workouts. Cohen probably has an idea on the
>>time course, as in how long before your workout to take it to avoid
>>problems.
>>
>>also, are you on fish oils?
>
>
> Not as a supplement, I try to have fish several times a week. The
> arthritis is just in two joints and has been well controlled with one
> Aleve a day. I will look into adding fish oil as a supplement,
> especially if I go off the Aleve.

Google on "Elzi Volk" and "fish oils arthritis", lots of information.

Lyle

MJL
October 1st 04, 03:19 AM
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Paul Cassel wrote:
>> David Cohen wrote:
>>
>>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>>
>>>> I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>>> Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>>> of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>>> use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>>> obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>>
>>>> My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>
>>
>> A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
>> I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
>> does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?
>
>Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
>crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
>NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>
>I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
>don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
>training.
>
>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>
>Lyle

I have always found it odd that so little attention is paid to the
blocking of a natural and complex response to injury. Inflammation,
as a process, is one of the great successes in the effort to respond
to injury. AND I was saying that even before the VIOXX thing...

I think people should always think twice before medicating injury
predicated inflammation.


--
http://www.texansfortruth.org/

Lyle McDonald
October 1st 04, 04:26 AM
MJL wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Paul Cassel wrote:
>>
>>>David Cohen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"London_Matt" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>>>>Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>>>>of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>>>>use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>>>>obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>>>>way?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>>
>>>
>>>A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
>>>I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
>>>does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?
>>
>>Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
>>crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
>>NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.
>>
>>I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
>>don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
>>training.
>>
>>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
>>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.
>>
>>Lyle
>
>
> I have always found it odd that so little attention is paid to the
> blocking of a natural and complex response to injury. Inflammation,
> as a process, is one of the great successes in the effort to respond
> to injury. AND I was saying that even before the VIOXX thing...
>
> I think people should always think twice before medicating injury
> predicated inflammation.

Well, the thing with inflammation is that both too much and too little
are a bad thing. Some is necesary for optimal healing but too much can
cause further damge and you can get into a runaway inflammatory cascade.
It's about optimal levels. It's a fine balance to achieve.

Lyle

London_Matt
October 1st 04, 09:40 AM
"David Cohen" > wrote in message .net>...

> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.

I'm aware of that -- hence the question. So just for the avoidance of
any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?

If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
Tylenol not the Advil, correct?

David Cohen
October 1st 04, 04:53 PM
"London_Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> "David Cohen" > wrote in message
> .net>...
>
>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>
> I'm aware of that -- hence the question.

Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
growth in the same
way?" Hence--the answer: "No".

> So just for the avoidance of
> any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?

Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.

> If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
> Tylenol not the Advil, correct?

It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
over, kiss your ass goodbye.

David

Lyle McDonald
October 1st 04, 05:00 PM
David Cohen wrote:
> "London_Matt" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>"David Cohen" > wrote in message
.net>...
>>
>>
>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>
>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question.
>
>
> Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
> growth in the same
> way?" Hence--the answer: "No".
>
>
>>So just for the avoidance of
>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>
>
> Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.
>
>
>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>
>
> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
> over, kiss your ass goodbye.

Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
or not?

Lyle

Proton Soup
October 1st 04, 06:49 PM
On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:00:56 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>David Cohen wrote:
>> "London_Matt" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
>>>"David Cohen" > wrote in message
.net>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>
>>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question.
>>
>>
>> Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
>> growth in the same
>> way?" Hence--the answer: "No".
>>
>>
>>>So just for the avoidance of
>>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>
>>
>> Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.
>>
>>
>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>
>>
>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>
>Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>or not?

Post-bris, breastfeeding and lots of attention. (per Dally)

BTW, anyone else noticed these really serious pain reliever
commercials lately? "When I've got a *serious* headache, I reach for
a *serious* pain reliever, Excedrin Serious Headache". Seriously, cut
it out already, sheesh.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Lyle McDonald
October 1st 04, 07:10 PM
Proton Soup wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:00:56 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>
>>David Cohen wrote:
>>
>>>"London_Matt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"David Cohen" > wrote in message
.net>...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>>
>>>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question.
>>>
>>>
>>>Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
>>>growth in the same
>>>way?" Hence--the answer: "No".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>So just for the avoidance of
>>>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>>
>>>
>>>Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>
>>>
>>>It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>>>Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>>>and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>>>and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>>doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>>>you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>>>over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>
>>Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>or not?
>
>
> Post-bris, breastfeeding and lots of attention. (per Dally)
>
> BTW, anyone else noticed these really serious pain reliever
> commercials lately? "When I've got a *serious* headache, I reach for
> a *serious* pain reliever, Excedrin Serious Headache". Seriously, cut
> it out already, sheesh.

Soon they'll jump on the Extreme Bandwagon like EXTREME Doritos.

Lyle

aj
October 1st 04, 07:37 PM
On 2004-10-01, London_Matt > wrote:
> "David Cohen" > wrote in message .net>...
>
>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>
> I'm aware of that -- hence the question. So just for the avoidance of
> any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>
> If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
> Tylenol not the Advil, correct?

You should probably just drink some water. Most headaches are
hydration related.



Err, what I mean is...Buy my patented AnalGesiAkwa (TM)! It specifically
targets painfully deliquent neurons with Oxygen Infused (TM) hydrogen.
Our "Water" Food Product is harvested only on the solstice by
blindfolded virgins. You can PayPal me for $60 per liter OR you can
buy in bulk and become an AnalGesiAqua (TM) distributor partner! MFW
spam templates, talking points and links to dubious websites will be
included in your kit FREE OF CHARGE!!!

--
-aj
AnalGesiAkwa (TM) is Kinda Sorta (TM) Organic and Biodynamic and I'll
slap a Tool sticker on the bottle too, just because they rock.

David Cohen
October 1st 04, 08:40 PM
"aj" > wrote
> London_Matt > wrote:
>> "David Cohen" > wrote
>>
>>> No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>
>> I'm aware of that -- hence the question. So just for the avoidance of
>> any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>
>> If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>> Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>
> You should probably just drink some water. Most headaches are
> hydration related.

"Most"? Hmmm...maybe for hangover headaches. You trying to tell us
something?

David

David Cohen
October 1st 04, 08:50 PM
"Proton Soup" > wrote
> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>David Cohen wrote:
>>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>>>"David Cohen" > wrote >>>>
>>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>>
>>>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question.
>>>
>>> Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
>>> growth in the same
>>> way?" Hence--the answer: "No".
>>>
>>>>So just for the avoidance of
>>>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>>
>>> Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.
>>>
>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>
>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache,
>>> Tylenol.
>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor,
>>> Advil
>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration,
>>> Tylenol
>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol
>>> until
>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary,
>>> bend
>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>
>>Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>or not?
>
> Post-bris, breastfeeding and lots of attention. (per Dally)
>
> BTW, anyone else noticed these really serious pain reliever
> commercials lately? "When I've got a *serious* headache, I reach for
> a *serious* pain reliever, Excedrin Serious Headache". Seriously, cut
> it out already, sheesh.

OTC pain relievers have some of the most BULL**** commercials I've ever
seen. Two recent favorites: The ones that proclaim a "special added pain
relief ingredient", which turns out to be caffeine. The problem is that,
while caffeine does help with vascular headaches, they're proclaiming it's
value for backache, which is exactly ZERO! The other is for Bayer aspirin.
They tell you, accurately, that if you're taking the 81 mg aspirin tabs,
when you have an actual heart attack, 81 mgs isn't enough, so, YOU HAVE TO
HAVE BAYER ASPIRIN AROUND THE HOUSE!! Apparently, swallowing 4 of the little
tabs is too difficult!

David

Peter Allen
October 1st 04, 10:01 PM
"MJL" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have always found it odd that so little attention is paid to the
> blocking of a natural and complex response to injury. Inflammation,
> as a process, is one of the great successes in the effort to respond
> to injury. AND I was saying that even before the VIOXX thing...
>
> I think people should always think twice before medicating injury
> predicated inflammation.

I think I basically agree, most of the time.

But, bear in mind e.g. teno issues where the inflammation gets into a
feedback loop and causes problems.

Peter

Proton Soup
October 1st 04, 10:40 PM
On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:50:21 GMT, "David Cohen"
> wrote:

>
>"Proton Soup" > wrote
>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>>David Cohen wrote:
>>>> "London_Matt" > wrote
>>>>>"David Cohen" > wrote >>>>
>>>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question.
>>>>
>>>> Your question was: "My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle
>>>> growth in the same
>>>> way?" Hence--the answer: "No".
>>>>
>>>>>So just for the avoidance of
>>>>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>>>
>>>> Correct. Which is the equivilant of "no" to the original question.
>>>>
>>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>>
>>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache,
>>>> Tylenol.
>>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor,
>>>> Advil
>>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration,
>>>> Tylenol
>>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol
>>>> until
>>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary,
>>>> bend
>>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>>
>>>Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>>or not?
>>
>> Post-bris, breastfeeding and lots of attention. (per Dally)
>>
>> BTW, anyone else noticed these really serious pain reliever
>> commercials lately? "When I've got a *serious* headache, I reach for
>> a *serious* pain reliever, Excedrin Serious Headache". Seriously, cut
>> it out already, sheesh.
>
>OTC pain relievers have some of the most BULL**** commercials I've ever
>seen. Two recent favorites: The ones that proclaim a "special added pain
>relief ingredient", which turns out to be caffeine. The problem is that,
>while caffeine does help with vascular headaches, they're proclaiming it's
>value for backache, which is exactly ZERO! The other is for Bayer aspirin.
>They tell you, accurately, that if you're taking the 81 mg aspirin tabs,
>when you have an actual heart attack, 81 mgs isn't enough, so, YOU HAVE TO
>HAVE BAYER ASPIRIN AROUND THE HOUSE!! Apparently, swallowing 4 of the little
>tabs is too difficult!

For that matter, why even have regular and maximum strength aspirin?
Just make it all 333mg, and put a notice on the bottle to take two if
it hurts, three if it hurts a lot. At least this seems to have been
dealt with with ibuprofen, but I guess they think most people can only
count "1, 2, many".

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Dally
October 2nd 04, 02:48 AM
Proton Soup wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:50:21 GMT, "David Cohen"
> > wrote:

>>OTC pain relievers have some of the most BULL**** commercials I've ever
>>seen. Two recent favorites: The ones that proclaim a "special added pain
>>relief ingredient", which turns out to be caffeine. The problem is that,
>>while caffeine does help with vascular headaches, they're proclaiming it's
>>value for backache, which is exactly ZERO! The other is for Bayer aspirin.
>>They tell you, accurately, that if you're taking the 81 mg aspirin tabs,
>>when you have an actual heart attack, 81 mgs isn't enough, so, YOU HAVE TO
>>HAVE BAYER ASPIRIN AROUND THE HOUSE!! Apparently, swallowing 4 of the little
>>tabs is too difficult!
>
>
> For that matter, why even have regular and maximum strength aspirin?
> Just make it all 333mg, and put a notice on the bottle to take two if
> it hurts, three if it hurts a lot. At least this seems to have been
> dealt with with ibuprofen, but I guess they think most people can only
> count "1, 2, many".

And then there's the cheap version: get a $1 pill cutter and cut your
own 325 mg tablets of store brand aspirin in to 4 pieces. I've got
ascripton to give to the dog or the occasional need for buffered
aspirin, but cheap plain stuff works fine for most situations.

Dally

Dally
October 2nd 04, 02:49 AM
aj wrote:

> On 2004-10-01, London_Matt > wrote:
>
>>"David Cohen" > wrote in message .net>...
>>
>>
>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>
>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question. So just for the avoidance of
>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>
>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>
>
> You should probably just drink some water. Most headaches are
> hydration related.
>
>
>
> Err, what I mean is...Buy my patented AnalGesiAkwa (TM)! It specifically
> targets painfully deliquent neurons with Oxygen Infused (TM) hydrogen.
> Our "Water" Food Product is harvested only on the solstice by
> blindfolded virgins. You can PayPal me for $60 per liter OR you can
> buy in bulk and become an AnalGesiAqua (TM) distributor partner! MFW
> spam templates, talking points and links to dubious websites will be
> included in your kit FREE OF CHARGE!!!
>


I absolutely love your technique. Appeals to the capitalist in me.
Say, did you see my transformation pictures? I'm still looking for
someone to pay me to publish them. I'll require big bucks. But if you
want to market, say, wintergreen certs as a weight-loss drug I want in
on the ground floor!

Dally

Proton Soup
October 2nd 04, 04:22 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:09:25 GMT, DZ
> wrote:

>Lyle McDonald wrote:
>> David Cohen wrote:
>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>
>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>
>> Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>> or not?
>
>That's the promise of pharmacogenetics: "The right medicine for the
>right patient"

Hmm, I wonder if they could grow DRS a new foreskin from stem cells.
Maybe farm it on the back of a mouse or something.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Proton Soup
October 2nd 04, 05:31 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:54:02 GMT, DZ
> wrote:

>Proton Soup > wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>>Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>> David Cohen wrote:
>>>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>>
>>>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>>>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>>>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>>>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>>>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>>>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>>>
>>>> Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>>> or not?
>>>
>>>That's the promise of pharmacogenetics: "The right medicine for the
>>>right patient"
>>
>> Hmm, I wonder if they could grow DRS a new foreskin from stem cells.
>> Maybe farm it on the back of a mouse or something.
>
>The promise of pharmacogenetics is to identify people who are likely
>to be circumcised by looking at their genetics. Also, whether they
>should take Tylenol.

Oh, I know growing foreskins on the backs of mouses is not
pharmacogenetics, but for some reason my mind forked in that
direction.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

elzinator
October 2nd 04, 06:30 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:54:02 GMT, DZ wrote:
>Proton Soup > wrote:
>> DZ wrote:
>>>Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>> David Cohen wrote:
>>>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>>
>>>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>>>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>>>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>>>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>>>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>>>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>>>
>>>> Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>>> or not?
>>>
>>>That's the promise of pharmacogenetics: "The right medicine for the
>>>right patient"
>>
>> Hmm, I wonder if they could grow DRS a new foreskin from stem cells.
>> Maybe farm it on the back of a mouse or something.
>
>The promise of pharmacogenetics is to identify people who are likely
>to be circumcised by looking at their genetics. Also, whether they
>should take Tylenol.

Or what type of Trojans to use.

"Ribbed, wavy, or the new Trojans now with luciferase or GFP for added
visual pleasure by responding to the type of genes expressed in the
foreskin!"


Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

aj
October 2nd 04, 09:44 AM
On 2004-10-02, Dally > wrote:
> aj wrote:
>
>> On 2004-10-01, London_Matt > wrote:
>>
>>>"David Cohen" > wrote in message .net>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.
>>>
>>>I'm aware of that -- hence the question. So just for the avoidance of
>>>any doubt -- acetaminophen shouldn't inhibit muscle growth?
>>>
>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>
>>
>> You should probably just drink some water. Most headaches are
>> hydration related.
>>
>>
>>
>> Err, what I mean is...Buy my patented AnalGesiAkwa (TM)! It specifically
>> targets painfully deliquent neurons with Oxygen Infused (TM) hydrogen.
>> Our "Water" Food Product is harvested only on the solstice by
>> blindfolded virgins. You can PayPal me for $60 per liter OR you can
>> buy in bulk and become an AnalGesiAqua (TM) distributor partner! MFW
>> spam templates, talking points and links to dubious websites will be
>> included in your kit FREE OF CHARGE!!!
>>
>
>
> I absolutely love your technique. Appeals to the capitalist in me.
> Say, did you see my transformation pictures? I'm still looking for
> someone to pay me to publish them. I'll require big bucks. But if you
> want to market, say, wintergreen certs as a weight-loss drug I want in
> on the ground floor!

Um yeah. Sorry. That was my first cappuccino of the week.

--
-aj
I'll mess with Texas.

Lucas Buck
October 8th 04, 11:24 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 00:30:29 -0500, elzinator > wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:54:02 GMT, DZ wrote:
>>Proton Soup > wrote:
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>>Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>>> David Cohen wrote:
>>>>>>>If I have a headache after working out, I should be reaching for the
>>>>>>>Tylenol not the Advil, correct?
>>>>>
>>>>>> It depends ($0.63 to Lyle). Depends on the cause. Tension headache, Tylenol.
>>>>>> Vascular headache, Tylenol and caffeine. Migraine, see your doctor, Advil
>>>>>> and caffeine until you get there. Headache secondary to dehydration, Tylenol
>>>>>> and Gatorade, and don't do that again. Hypertension headache, see your
>>>>>> doctor, Tylenol until you get there. Tumor, see your doctor, Tylenol until
>>>>>> you get there. Arteriovenous malformation, make me your beneficiary, bend
>>>>>> over, kiss your ass goodbye.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
>>>>> or not?
>>>>
>>>>That's the promise of pharmacogenetics: "The right medicine for the
>>>>right patient"
>>>
>>> Hmm, I wonder if they could grow DRS a new foreskin from stem cells.
>>> Maybe farm it on the back of a mouse or something.
>>
>>The promise of pharmacogenetics is to identify people who are likely
>>to be circumcised by looking at their genetics. Also, whether they
>>should take Tylenol.
>
>Or what type of Trojans to use.
>
>"Ribbed, wavy, or the new Trojans now with luciferase or GFP for added
>visual pleasure by responding to the type of genes expressed in the
>foreskin!"

You're just hot for the Trojan Man because he's always on horseback.

rick++
October 8th 04, 03:25 PM
All of the OTC painkillers warn against taking them more than three days
in a row without doctors supervision. They can have powerful effects on
on many parts of the body. ABC news had scare story on this Wed(?) about
some young guy who died from a acemphimen overdose.

John HUDSON
October 8th 04, 03:47 PM
On 8 Oct 2004 07:25:38 -0700, (rick++) wrote:

>All of the OTC painkillers warn against taking them more than three days
>in a row without doctors supervision. They can have powerful effects on
>on many parts of the body. ABC news had scare story on this Wed(?) about
>some young guy who died from a acemphimen overdose.

They will also inhibit muscle growth if used regularly.

Have a great weekend - I intend to!! ;o)

HAGW!!

Elzinator
October 8th 04, 04:54 PM
Lucas Buck > wrote in message news:<1097231069.kDPnZms4Zq9GXEbVdLW/[email protected]>...
> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 00:30:29 -0500, elzinator > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:54:02 GMT, DZ wrote:
> >>Proton Soup > wrote:
> >>> DZ wrote:

> >>>>> Does any of this change depending on whether the person is circumcised
> >>>>> or not?
> >>>>
> >>>>That's the promise of pharmacogenetics: "The right medicine for the
> >>>>right patient"
> >>>
> >>> Hmm, I wonder if they could grow DRS a new foreskin from stem cells.
> >>> Maybe farm it on the back of a mouse or something.
> >>
> >>The promise of pharmacogenetics is to identify people who are likely
> >>to be circumcised by looking at their genetics. Also, whether they
> >>should take Tylenol.
> >
> >Or what type of Trojans to use.
> >
> >"Ribbed, wavy, or the new Trojans now with luciferase or GFP for added
> >visual pleasure by responding to the type of genes expressed in the
> >foreskin!"
>
> You're just hot for the Trojan Man because he's always on horseback.


Well, yeah. Duh.

Elzinator
October 8th 04, 05:16 PM
Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
> MJL wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Paul Cassel wrote:
> >>
> >>>David Cohen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"London_Matt" > wrote
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
> >>>>>Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
> >>>>>of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
> >>>>>use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
> >>>>>obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
> >>>>>way?

Theoretically, taking NSAIDs POST-exercise should not affect muscle
protein accretion (protein synthesis) because the role of
prostaglandins is posited to early in the stage of protein synthesis.
Although no one really knows for certain the mechanisms that
prostaglandins influence protein balance in skeletal muscle, PGE is an
important regulator of response to loading in bone.

If I recall, parameters were measured in a few subject who were
administerd NSAIDs post-exercise and there was no effect (no
attenuation of muscle protein). Thus it appears that prostaglandins
may be required for the immediate response of muscle cells to the
exercise-induced increase in protein. The influence may be at any of
the several response systems: the acute inflammation (mediated by
immune cells,etc), proliferation of satellite cells, the downstream
signals of mechanical loading (cytoskeletal signaling cascade), etc.

> >>>>No. Acetaminophen is not an NSAID.

No, but it had a similar effect as other NSAIDs on muscle protein
changes.

> >>>A quick search indicates that almost all agree that it isn't, but now
> >>>I'm curious. Does taking an NSAID militate against hypertrophy? If so,
> >>>does it only if taken within X hours of a workout? Is it dose related?
> >>
> >>Some research suggests that the inflammatory response to training is
> >>crucial in turning on protein synthesis. Block that response with an
> >>NSAID and no protein synthesis increase.

A similar response can be seen in bone when PGE is blocked (not
necessarily protein synthesis, but other signaling systems).

> >>I wouldn't want an NSAID actaully in my system during/after training. I
> >>don't know the half-life but you wouldn't want to take a dose close to
> >>training.

In individuals that were administered NSAIDs post-training, the
effects were absent.

> >>The studies I've looked at only used maximum doses, if anyone has done
> >>dose-response study, I'm not aware of it.

That's the real issue: dose-response. Many athletes take NSIADs before
exercising/training and don't appear to 'suffer'. The other question
is the curve of PG concentrations associated with effects.

> > I have always found it odd that so little attention is paid to the
> > blocking of a natural and complex response to injury. Inflammation,
> > as a process, is one of the great successes in the effort to respond
> > to injury. AND I was saying that even before the VIOXX thing...
> >
> > I think people should always think twice before medicating injury
> > predicated inflammation.
>
> Well, the thing with inflammation is that both too much and too little
> are a bad thing. Some is necesary for optimal healing but too much can
> cause further damge and you can get into a runaway inflammatory cascade.
> It's about optimal levels. It's a fine balance to achieve.

Acute inflammation may not be detrimental: it is part of the repair
and remodeling process. However, chronic inflammation is detrimental
to the same processes. This has also been shown in bone and other
connective tissue. But how this correlates with skeletal muscle tissue
is not known, and has not really been studied in depth. Except for the
two studies by Trapt and Evans (?), that's all we have. Unfortunately,
people are making leaps of (il)logic and inferences from these studies
with no research to validate them.

John HUDSON
October 8th 04, 05:29 PM
On 8 Oct 2004 09:16:32 -0700, (Elzinator) wrote:

>Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
>> MJL wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Paul Cassel wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>David Cohen wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>"London_Matt" > wrote
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>> >>>>>Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>> >>>>>of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>> >>>>>use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>> >>>>>obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>> >>>>>way?
>
>Theoretically, taking NSAIDs POST-exercise should not affect muscle
>protein accretion (protein synthesis) because the role of
>prostaglandins is posited to early in the stage of protein synthesis.
>Although no one really knows for certain the mechanisms that
>prostaglandins influence protein balance in skeletal muscle, PGE is an
>important regulator of response to loading in bone.
>
>If I recall, parameters were measured in a few subject who were
>administerd NSAIDs post-exercise and there was no effect (no
>attenuation of muscle protein). Thus it appears that prostaglandins
>may be required for the immediate response of muscle cells to the
>exercise-induced increase in protein. The influence may be at any of
>the several response systems: the acute inflammation (mediated by
>immune cells,etc), proliferation of satellite cells, the downstream
>signals of mechanical loading (cytoskeletal signaling cascade), etc.

That is not my understanding of the risks of the regular intake of OTC
painkillers:

"However, what most people don't realize is that high doses of these
pain killers can "blunt" the normal rise in protein synthesis that
occurs after exercise. In other words, while they can control the
pain, regular use of these pain killers could put the brakes on muscle
growth."

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/research/painkillers.htm

Have a great weekend Elzi darling - you know I will!! ;o)

TFIF!!

David Cohen
October 8th 04, 05:31 PM
"rick++" > wrote
> All of the OTC painkillers warn against taking them more than three days
> in a row without doctors supervision. They can have powerful effects on
> on many parts of the body. ABC news had scare story on this Wed(?) about
> some young guy who died from a acemphimen overdose.

Yes, thinking for one's self is so dangerous. Must consult the medical
industry. Absolutely. Can't take chances. Four days of Ibuprofen and POOF
you're a dead man. I HATE when that happens.

David

Lyle McDonald
October 9th 04, 04:49 PM
Elzinator wrote:
> Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
>
>>MJL wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:14:55 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Paul Cassel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>David Cohen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"London_Matt" > wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I read recently in Mens Health that taking NSAIDs (Nonsteroidal
>>>>>>>Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications) after exercise reduces the amount
>>>>>>>of muscle-growth experienced. The article specifically referred to
>>>>>>>use the of NSAIDs used to treat muscle soreness from DOMS, but
>>>>>>>obviously if the drugs are in your system, they're in your system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My question is whether acetaminophen affects muscle growth in the same
>>>>>>>way?
>
>
> Theoretically, taking NSAIDs POST-exercise should not affect muscle
> protein accretion (protein synthesis) because the role of
> prostaglandins is posited to early in the stage of protein synthesis.
> Although no one really knows for certain the mechanisms that
> prostaglandins influence protein balance in skeletal muscle, PGE is an
> important regulator of response to loading in bone.
>

Yes, I agree.
I think NSAID's are only a problem if they are actually in your system
in the immediate post workout time frame.
Meaning you'd have to have taken them at some time point before the workout.

The initial inflammatory PG response is very quick and very short lived,
taking an NSAID a little while after shouldn't have much of an impact.


>>Well, the thing with inflammation is that both too much and too little
>>are a bad thing. Some is necesary for optimal healing but too much can
>>cause further damge and you can get into a runaway inflammatory cascade.
>>It's about optimal levels. It's a fine balance to achieve.
>
>
> Acute inflammation may not be detrimental: it is part of the repair
> and remodeling process. However, chronic inflammation is detrimental
> to the same processes. This has also been shown in bone and other
> connective tissue. But how this correlates with skeletal muscle tissue
> is not known, and has not really been studied in depth. Except for the
> two studies by Trapt and Evans (?), that's all we have.

I think that's what i said. :)

Unfortunately,
> people are making leaps of (il)logic and inferences from these studies
> with no research to validate them.

Bodybuilding theorists making leaps of logic from incomplete data sets?
Say it isn't so.

Lyle