PDA

View Full Version : deadlift and shin pain


Tiger Hillside
October 2nd 04, 08:51 PM
I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
they make sweat mumus?)

TIA.

DRS
October 2nd 04, 08:57 PM
"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message

> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> they make sweat mumus?)

For God's sake, does no-one use Google any more? Scissors > 2 litre plastic
Coke bottles > shin-guards.

--

"Self-delusion as a coping tool has always been a fairly useful strategy for
me."
Dally

Keith Hobman
October 2nd 04, 08:59 PM
In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:

> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> they make sweat mumus?)

Shin pads.

Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
in your socks when you deadlift.

Tiger Hillside
October 2nd 04, 09:14 PM
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 05:57:01 +1000, "DRS" >
wrote:

>"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message

>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> they make sweat mumus?)
>
>For God's sake, does no-one use Google any more? Scissors > 2 litre plastic
>Coke bottles > shin-guards.

I missed that.

[recheck]

Ah, I somehow had a misplaced space that messed things up.

Thanks to both you and John. I knew this had to be discussed and
solved.

MJL
October 2nd 04, 09:22 PM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:59:46 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:
>
>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> they make sweat mumus?)
>
>Shin pads.
>
>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>in your socks when you deadlift.

They also have an alternate use...assuming your mother is still alive.


--
http://www.texansfortruth.org/

Proton Soup
October 2nd 04, 11:02 PM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:22:46 GMT, MJL > wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:59:46 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>wrote:
>
>>In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:
>>
>>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>>> they make sweat mumus?)
>>
>>Shin pads.
>>
>>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>>in your socks when you deadlift.
>
>They also have an alternate use...assuming your mother is still alive.

That use loses most of its effectiveness if you use plastic.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

elzinator
October 3rd 04, 12:14 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:14:10 GMT, Tiger Hillside wrote:
>On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 05:57:01 +1000, "DRS" >
>wrote:
>
>>"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message

>>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>>> they make sweat mumus?)
>>
>>For God's sake, does no-one use Google any more? Scissors > 2 litre plastic
>>Coke bottles > shin-guards.
>
>I missed that.
>
>[recheck]
>
>Ah, I somehow had a misplaced space that messed things up.
>
>Thanks to both you and John. I knew this had to be discussed and
>solved.

Discussed, yes. Solved, no.



Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

elzinator
October 3rd 04, 12:16 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:59:46 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:
>
>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> they make sweat mumus?)
>
>Shin pads.
>
>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>in your socks when you deadlift.

don't wear big socks. I like the idea of putting the pop bottles over
the bar.

My shins are permanently marred with deadlift racing stripes.


Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

Steve Freides
October 3rd 04, 04:13 AM
"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
>I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> they make sweat mumus?)

Some of us, albeit a distinct minority, manage to deadlift without
scraping the bar up our shins. I confess that I do scrape my shins once
in a while but it's pretty unusual. If you focus on pushing your butt
back and keeping your shins vertical, as opposed to the more common
focus of dropping your hips low, you can manage to start with the bar
pretty close and still not touch. Of course, a lot has to do with your
build and your flexibility - I can put my palms on the floor with my
knees locked and I've got lousy lower back flexion (forward bending),
which means I've got pretty good hamstring flexibility, all of which
allows me to start with the bar almost touching my shins when I'm
standing upright and still not hit. My shorter than average legs for my
height don't hurt me here, either. :)

This clip from about six months ago -
http://www.kbnj.com/deadlift_345.rm - of my scrawny ass performing my
most recent PR, while far from stellar form, gives you at least one
example of what I'm talking about. (It now looks a little funny to me
how long I held onto the bar at the top but I was so f$%^ing psyched
about having set a new PR that I just stood there and yelled for a
minute before I put it down.) As the title of the video clip indicates,
it's a 345 lb. deadlift, performed at my usual bodyweight of ~150 lbs.
The form/technique I use is what I learned from Pavel's "Power To The
People!" book, http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Jeff Finlayson
October 3rd 04, 05:57 AM
Tiger Hillside wrote:

> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> away when I get better?

You want the bar close to the body. Don't hold it further away.
Wear knee high socks, 2 layers. You can put a shin guard in between them.

This stuff has been discussed here a couple times at least. Work on
your googling, as in google groups.

elzinator
October 3rd 04, 06:07 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:57:22 -0500, Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>
>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better?
>
>You want the bar close to the body. Don't hold it further away.
>Wear knee high socks, 2 layers. You can put a shin guard in between them.
>
>This stuff has been discussed here a couple times at least. Work on
>your googling, as in google groups.

Speaking of this subject, has ANYONE here tried the suggestion posted
by [insert name here] of putting the split plastic soda bottles on the
bar rather than on the shins?

Inquiring shins want to know, and thus will be added to the
commandments in the Book of the Deadlift.


Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

DRS
October 3rd 04, 01:58 PM
"elzinator" > wrote in message

> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:14:10 GMT, Tiger Hillside wrote:

[...]

>> Thanks to both you and John. I knew this had to be discussed and
>> solved.
>
> Discussed, yes. Solved, no.

In what way is shin-guards not a solution?

--

"Self-delusion as a coping tool has always been a fairly useful strategy for
me."
Dally

Tiger Hillside
October 3rd 04, 02:35 PM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:57:22 -0500, Jeff Finlayson
> wrote:

>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>
>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better?
>
>You want the bar close to the body. Don't hold it further away.
>Wear knee high socks, 2 layers. You can put a shin guard in between them.
>
>This stuff has been discussed here a couple times at least. Work on
>your googling, as in google groups.

Thanks again. I did Google, but had a space in the question where no
space belonged. I don't know why it returned any results at all, but
it did. In fact, I even remembered reading something about soda
bottles, but the errant space kept those from showing up.

Tiger Hillside
October 3rd 04, 02:35 PM
On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:13:55 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
>>I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> they make sweat mumus?)
>
>Some of us, albeit a distinct minority, manage to deadlift without
>scraping the bar up our shins. I confess that I do scrape my shins once
>in a while but it's pretty unusual. If you focus on pushing your butt
>back and keeping your shins vertical, as opposed to the more common
>focus of dropping your hips low, you can manage to start with the bar
>pretty close and still not touch. Of course, a lot has to do with your
>build and your flexibility - I can put my palms on the floor with my
>knees locked and I've got lousy lower back flexion (forward bending),
>which means I've got pretty good hamstring flexibility, all of which
>allows me to start with the bar almost touching my shins when I'm
>standing upright and still not hit. My shorter than average legs for my
>height don't hurt me here, either. :)
>
>This clip from about six months ago -
>http://www.kbnj.com/deadlift_345.rm - of my scrawny ass performing my
>most recent PR, while far from stellar form, gives you at least one
>example of what I'm talking about. (It now looks a little funny to me
>how long I held onto the bar at the top but I was so f$%^ing psyched
>about having set a new PR that I just stood there and yelled for a
>minute before I put it down.) As the title of the video clip indicates,
>it's a 345 lb. deadlift, performed at my usual bodyweight of ~150 lbs.
>The form/technique I use is what I learned from Pavel's "Power To The
>People!" book, http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm

Unfortunately I am not that flexible. I think I will have to go with
the mechanical solution, at least for the foreseeable future.

Thanks though.

elzinator
October 3rd 04, 02:42 PM
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 22:58:58 +1000, DRS wrote:
>"elzinator" > wrote in message

>> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 20:14:10 GMT, Tiger Hillside wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>> Thanks to both you and John. I knew this had to be discussed and
>>> solved.
>>
>> Discussed, yes. Solved, no.
>
>In what way is shin-guards not a solution?

It is 'a' solution. But not *my* solution.


Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

zxcv
October 3rd 04, 06:08 PM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> In article >, Tiger Hillside
> > wrote:
>
> > I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> > Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> > and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> > expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> > away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> > they make sweat mumus?)
>
> Shin pads.
>
> Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
> into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
> in your socks when you deadlift.

You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
from you when it collides with the knee.

The proper set up position is where you will just miss your knee cap
as the bar goes by, probably putting the bar in the middle of the
foot. I know this is counter to what people are traditionally taught
but switching to this technique years ago added about 30lbs to the
deadlifts of most of my teammates. FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.

I also HATE when the guy up before me bleeds on the bar.

Keith Hobman
October 4th 04, 03:32 AM
In article >,
(zxcv) wrote:

> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
> > In article >, Tiger Hillside
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> > > Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> > > and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> > > expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> > > away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> > > they make sweat mumus?)
> >
> > Shin pads.
> >
> > Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
> > into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
> > in your socks when you deadlift.
>
> You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
> deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
> shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
> pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
> also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
> good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
> from you when it collides with the knee.
>
> The proper set up position is where you will just miss your knee cap
> as the bar goes by, probably putting the bar in the middle of the
> foot. I know this is counter to what people are traditionally taught
> but switching to this technique years ago added about 30lbs to the
> deadlifts of most of my teammates. FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>
> I also HATE when the guy up before me bleeds on the bar.

Yeah? I've seen Coan skin his shins. It happens. And when it does it takes
a long time to heal. Hence shins guards.

And of course you start with the bar at mid-foot. Where else?

Steve Freides
October 4th 04, 03:49 AM
"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:13:55 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Tiger Hillside" > wrote in message
...
>>>I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar
>>> hits
>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to
>>> be
>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts?
>>> (Do
>>> they make sweat mumus?)
>>
>>Some of us, albeit a distinct minority, manage to deadlift without
>>scraping the bar up our shins. I confess that I do scrape my shins
>>once
>>in a while but it's pretty unusual. If you focus on pushing your butt
>>back and keeping your shins vertical, as opposed to the more common
>>focus of dropping your hips low, you can manage to start with the bar
>>pretty close and still not touch. Of course, a lot has to do with
>>your
>>build and your flexibility - I can put my palms on the floor with my
>>knees locked and I've got lousy lower back flexion (forward bending),
>>which means I've got pretty good hamstring flexibility, all of which
>>allows me to start with the bar almost touching my shins when I'm
>>standing upright and still not hit. My shorter than average legs for
>>my
>>height don't hurt me here, either. :)
>>
>>This clip from about six months ago -
>>http://www.kbnj.com/deadlift_345.rm - of my scrawny ass performing my
>>most recent PR, while far from stellar form, gives you at least one
>>example of what I'm talking about. (It now looks a little funny to me
>>how long I held onto the bar at the top but I was so f$%^ing psyched
>>about having set a new PR that I just stood there and yelled for a
>>minute before I put it down.) As the title of the video clip
>>indicates,
>>it's a 345 lb. deadlift, performed at my usual bodyweight of ~150 lbs.
>>The form/technique I use is what I learned from Pavel's "Power To The
>>People!" book, http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm
>
> Unfortunately I am not that flexible. I think I will have to go with
> the mechanical solution, at least for the foreseeable future.

As my wife will testify, I was about as unflexible as one can be when I
started - I had trouble touching the middle of my shins, let alone my
toes. You, and everyone else, can become more flexible and
weightlifting in the right way can even help you do that. My personal
favorite thing for stretching and strengthening hamstrings is the
kettlebell swing, but, hey, just 'cause it worked for me doesn't mean
it'll work for you. :)

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

> Thanks though.
>
>

Lyle McDonald
October 4th 04, 04:41 AM
elzinator wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2004 10:08:20 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>>
>>>In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>>>Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>>>and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>>>expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>>>away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>>>>they make sweat mumus?)
>>>
>>>Shin pads.
>>>
>>>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>>>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>>>in your socks when you deadlift.
>>
>>You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
>>deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
>>shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
>>pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
>>also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
>>good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
>
>>from you when it collides with the knee.
>
> I am deadlifting right and the bar peels skin off my shins. You
> deadlift your way and I'll deadlift mine because it works best for me.
>
> So take your 'wrong' and shove it.

His way is Simmon's way.
Which to WSB cultists, IS the ONLY way.

Lyle

elzinator
October 4th 04, 04:41 AM
On 3 Oct 2004 10:08:20 -0700, zxcv wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>> In article >, Tiger Hillside
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> > Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> > and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> > expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> > away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> > they make sweat mumus?)
>>
>> Shin pads.
>>
>> Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>> into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>> in your socks when you deadlift.
>
>You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
>deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
>shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
>pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
>also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
>good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
>from you when it collides with the knee.

I am deadlifting right and the bar peels skin off my shins. You
deadlift your way and I'll deadlift mine because it works best for me.

So take your 'wrong' and shove it.




Beelzibub

"Modern man must rediscover a deeper source of his own spiritual life. To do this,he is obligated
to struggle with evil, to confront his own shadow, to integrate the devil."
- Carl Jung

Lyle McDonald
October 4th 04, 05:04 AM
zxcv wrote:
FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.

700 at what bodyweight and what gear?

Lyle

Will
October 4th 04, 05:26 AM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> zxcv wrote:
> FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> > with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>
> 700 at what bodyweight and what gear?

Does it really matter? A 700 lb deadlift is freakin' impressive at any
bodyweight. And gear doesn't add much to the deadlift, that's why the
deadlift records have advanced at a snail's pace compared to the squat
and bench.

Jeff Finlayson
October 4th 04, 05:37 AM
zxcv wrote:
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>>Tiger Hillside wrote:

>>> Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>>and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>>expected and tolerated?

>>Shin pads.
>>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>>in your socks when you deadlift.
>
> You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
> deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
> shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
** Not necessarily move away. Depends on the lifter's proportions and
technique.

> pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
> also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
> good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
> from you when it collides with the knee.
>
> The proper set up position is where you will just miss your knee cap
> as the bar goes by, probably putting the bar in the middle of the
> foot.

You seem to suggest this puts the bar further forward than normal.
Middle of foot or ball of foot have to be the most common suggestions.

> I also HATE when the guy up before me bleeds on the bar.

Yea cause they stop things to clean the bar..

Lyle McDonald
October 4th 04, 06:39 AM
Will wrote:
> In article >,
> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>
>
>>zxcv wrote:
>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
>>
>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>>
>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
>
>
> Does it really matter?

Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.

Lyle

zxcv
October 4th 04, 11:14 AM
Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
> zxcv wrote:
> FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> > with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>
> 700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
>
> Lyle

242, belt

zxcv
October 4th 04, 11:18 AM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (zxcv) wrote:
>
> > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> >...
> > > In article >, Tiger Hillside
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> > > > Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> > > > and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> > > > expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> > > > away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> > > > they make sweat mumus?)
> > >
> > > Shin pads.
> > >
> > > Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
> > > into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
> > > in your socks when you deadlift.
> >
> > You do not need shin guards. If the bar scrapes your shins you are
> > deadlifting WRONG. It is simple mechanics. If the bar scrapes your
> > shins it will move away from your body on the way up robbing you of
> > pulling strength at a factor of the cosine of the angle. You will
> > also lose strength due to friction against the leg. There is also a
> > good chance that the bar will hook under the kneecap or bounce away
> > from you when it collides with the knee.
> >
> > The proper set up position is where you will just miss your knee cap
> > as the bar goes by, probably putting the bar in the middle of the
> > foot. I know this is counter to what people are traditionally taught
> > but switching to this technique years ago added about 30lbs to the
> > deadlifts of most of my teammates. FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> > with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >
> > I also HATE when the guy up before me bleeds on the bar.
>
> Yeah? I've seen Coan skin his shins. It happens. And when it does it takes
> a long time to heal. Hence shins guards.
>
> And of course you start with the bar at mid-foot. Where else?

Mid-foot as in halfway between the shin and the toe, as opposed to
halfway between the heel and toe. I will take the blame on that one.

zxcv
October 4th 04, 11:23 AM
Jeff Finlayson > wrote in message >...
> You seem to suggest this puts the bar further forward than normal.
> Middle of foot or ball of foot have to be the most common suggestions.
>

Well, the thread had to do with scraping the shins. If you start at
the ball and still scrape the shins you must be pulling pretty far
back. No?


> > I also HATE when the guy up before me bleeds on the bar.
>
> Yea cause they stop things to clean the bar..

Sometimes. Sometimes nobody sees the blood. Sometimes they do not
clean it properly. Pulling with a bar that has just been bleached is
annoying too.

Jeff Finlayson
October 4th 04, 01:03 PM
zxcv wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>
>>You seem to suggest this puts the bar further forward than normal.
>>Middle of foot or ball of foot have to be the most common suggestions.
>
> Well, the thread had to do with scraping the shins. If you start at
> the ball and still scrape the shins you must be pulling pretty far
> back. No?

Maybe or maybe not for a lifter with long legs.

Will
October 4th 04, 02:56 PM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> Will wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>zxcv wrote:
> >>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>
> >>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>
> >>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >
> >
> > Does it really matter?
>
> Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
>
> Lyle
>

At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
deadlift is still pretty impressive. It's interesting that even though
the all time deadlift records are held by fairly big guys, the all time
best lifts weren't by 400 lb monsters like with the bench and squat.

billydee
October 4th 04, 07:03 PM
Tiger Hillside > wrote in message >...
> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
> they make sweat mumus?)
>
> TIA.

get a trap bar

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 07:12 PM
Will wrote:
> In article >,
> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>
>
>>Will wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>zxcv wrote:
>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>>>>
>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
>>>
>>>
>>>Does it really matter?
>>
>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
>>
>>Lyle
>>
>
>
> At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> deadlift is still pretty impressive.

It's still only 2XBW.
My girls were doing 2XBW.

I'm weak as a girl and I did almost 2.5XBW.

> It's interesting that even though
> the all time deadlift records are held by fairly big guys, the all time
> best lifts weren't by 400 lb monsters like with the bench and squat.

Yes, they are usually held by biomechanical freaks with some weird
anatomical quirk that lets them lever up insane weights.

Lyle

Will
October 6th 04, 07:45 PM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> Will wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Will wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>zxcv wrote:
> >>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>>>
> >>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Does it really matter?
> >>
> >>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> >>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> >>
> >>Lyle
> >>
> >
> >
> > At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> > deadlift is still pretty impressive.
>
> It's still only 2XBW.

That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.

And drugs aside, a 350 lb behemoth is going to carry a fair bit of fat.
To me, fat and strong is still strong.

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 08:02 PM
Will wrote:

> In article >,
> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>
>
>>Will wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Will wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article >,
>>>>>Lyle McDonald > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>zxcv wrote:
>>>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Does it really matter?
>>>>
>>>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
>>>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
>>>>
>>>>Lyle
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
>>>deadlift is still pretty impressive.
>>
>>It's still only 2XBW.
>
>
> That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
> impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.

This sort of reminds me of the flame war I had with John Carlo back in
the day a bit.

Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?

Of course, this discussion more likely represents us projecting our
personal biases onto the equation than anything real.

I'm little, so I prefer bodyweight comparisons.
Being bigger, you prefer absolute and make excuses for a fat gut getting
in the way during a DL. :)

Que sera sera.

Lyle

Will
October 6th 04, 08:21 PM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> Will wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Will wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Will wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article >,
> >>>>>Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>zxcv wrote:
> >>>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Does it really matter?
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> >>>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> >>>>
> >>>>Lyle
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> >>>deadlift is still pretty impressive.
> >>
> >>It's still only 2XBW.
> >
> >
> > That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
> > impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.
>
> This sort of reminds me of the flame war I had with John Carlo back in
> the day a bit.
>
> Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168,

I just didn't want to make things personal. ;) But since you asked:

> how does
> that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?

Wilk's: You score 134, hypothetical 350 pound behemoth scores 174.
Behemoth wins.
http://www.blindpowerlifting.com/sport/wilkscalc.htm

To me personally: Much less impressive. I know (personally) lots of
guys who can deadlift 420. I think every adult male powerlifter
(defined as someone who has been on a platform to compete) I know can
deadlift that much. I only know (personally) two people who can
deadlift 700.

> Of course, this discussion more likely represents us projecting our
> personal biases onto the equation than anything real.
>
> I'm little, so I prefer bodyweight comparisons.
> Being bigger, you prefer absolute and make excuses for a fat gut getting
> in the way during a DL. :)

Yup. Fat thighs suck too.

Keith Hobman
October 6th 04, 08:23 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Will wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Will wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>zxcv wrote:
> >>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>>>
> >>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Does it really matter?
> >>
> >>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> >>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> >>
> >>Lyle
> >>
> >
> >
> > At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> > deadlift is still pretty impressive.
>
> It's still only 2XBW.
> My girls were doing 2XBW.
>
> I'm weak as a girl and I did almost 2.5XBW.
>
> > It's interesting that even though
> > the all time deadlift records are held by fairly big guys, the all time
> > best lifts weren't by 400 lb monsters like with the bench and squat.
>
> Yes, they are usually held by biomechanical freaks with some weird
> anatomical quirk that lets them lever up insane weights.

Not the supers. Heisey was a long, tall galoot with a normal spine. He did
have both long arms and long legs.

Reinhoudt before him was an almost 400 lb monster, so I'm not really sure
Will is correct on this one.

The freaks tend to rule the lighter weight classes tho...

Keith Hobman
October 6th 04, 08:25 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Will wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Will wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Will wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article >,
> >>>>>Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>zxcv wrote:
> >>>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Does it really matter?
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> >>>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> >>>>
> >>>>Lyle
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> >>>deadlift is still pretty impressive.
> >>
> >>It's still only 2XBW.
> >
> >
> > That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
> > impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.
>
> This sort of reminds me of the flame war I had with John Carlo back in
> the day a bit.
>
> Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
> that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?

I didn't think you broke 400 at the meet you did? Was this a different
time or done in the gym? (I'm not contesting it, BTW, as I realize you
don't bull**** about your lifts. I just remember thinking I was suprised
you could ATTG squat as much as you did and not have a stronger deadlift.
I might be mixed up.)

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 09:13 PM
Will wrote:

> In article >,

> Wilk's: You score 134, hypothetical 350 pound behemoth scores 174.
> Behemoth wins.
> http://www.blindpowerlifting.com/sport/wilkscalc.htm
>

And who decided that Wilkes was valid?
I believe Siff presents a bunch of other normalizations.


>>Of course, this discussion more likely represents us projecting our
>>personal biases onto the equation than anything real.
>>
>>I'm little, so I prefer bodyweight comparisons.
>>Being bigger, you prefer absolute and make excuses for a fat gut getting
>>in the way during a DL. :)
>
>
> Yup. Fat thighs suck too.

And, mas importantamente, most girlies dig leaner guys with tight butts
and flat stomaches.

And could generally give a **** about how much you can lift off the
floor. :)

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 09:16 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:


>>Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
>>that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
>
>
> I didn't think you broke 400 at the meet you did? Was this a different
> time or done in the gym?

365 at 168 = 2.2. Ok ~2.5 is overstating it.

Math is hard. <giggle> I'm going to go make cookies for the boys.

But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
training.

Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW

Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.

Lyle

Lee Michaels
October 6th 04, 09:25 PM
"Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
> But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
> strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
> training.
>
> Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
> PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
>
> Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
> many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.
>
Interesting.

But those speed skaters generally have good leg development. Patyicularly
the inner thigh area.

Lyle, do a little fantasy projection here for me.

If you trained totally to support your skating for a year or two, what do
you think you could total at this lower bodyweight?

And what do you think you could do if you trained for the big three lifts
for a while after that?

Also, what specifically does skating do to build/support strength in these
lifts?

Keith Hobman
October 6th 04, 09:27 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>
> >>Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
> >>that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
> >
> >
> > I didn't think you broke 400 at the meet you did? Was this a different
> > time or done in the gym?
>
> 365 at 168 = 2.2. Ok ~2.5 is overstating it.
>
> Math is hard. <giggle> I'm going to go make cookies for the boys.
>
> But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
> strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
> training.
>
> Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
> PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
>
> Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
> many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.
>
I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
(Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)

So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.

Sheesh.

My raw bench and deadlift are good. I think I'll be doing a Hatfield type
of squat (slightly wider feet and carry the bar low) in Laughlin in order
to get over 500. I won't be going back to my wide stance squat tho...

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 10:06 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
>>But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
>>strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
>>training.
>>
>>Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
>>PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
>>
>>Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
>>many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.
>>
>
> Interesting.
>
> But those speed skaters generally have good leg development. Patyicularly
> the inner thigh area.

yes. But it's a weird ****ing sport, even for an 'endurance' sport, it's
really more power oriented. The longest metric race is 10k meters which
takes about 13 minutes.

I mean, I'm still doing continuous endurance training (maintenance
loads, 3 hours/week) right now, most skaters don't even do that (I
personaally think most of them lack fitness). But I've got 12 training
units per week, of which 4 are pure strength, 2 are power (jumping), 3
are ice technical and 3 are aerobic endurance.

But even when I was doing only endurance skating back in college, my
inner thighs just got huge. Muscle memory returned them to their former
glory recently.


> If you trained totally to support your skating for a year or two, what do
> you think you could total at this lower bodyweight?

Well I'm neither benching or DL'ing so I don't know.

I plan to at least get 2XBW+ full squat next year.

2.5XBW half squat for reps is a standard strength score for sprint
specialists.

>
> And what do you think you could do if you trained for the big three lifts
> for a while after that?
>
> Also, what specifically does skating do to build/support strength in these
> lifts?

Well, there's a huge isometric component for quads and low back that
gets trained during skating.

There is also quite the stability component at the ankle and hip. That
might be helping.

Beyond that, I do'nt see that skating per se would really improve weight
room performance any more than something than sprinting would.

Lyle

Will
October 6th 04, 11:30 PM
In article >,
Lyle McDonald > wrote:

> Will wrote:
>
> > In article >,
>
> > Wilk's: You score 134, hypothetical 350 pound behemoth scores 174.
> > Behemoth wins.
> > http://www.blindpowerlifting.com/sport/wilkscalc.htm
> >
>
> And who decided that Wilkes was valid?

No one, but you aksed.

> I believe Siff presents a bunch of other normalizations.

Fine, go ahead and spend your day searching for one that says your lift
beats 700 at 350. But in the calculation above I credited you for 420
(2.5x BW), not 365. You really score 117 by the Wilks.

Personally I like the old Weider formula. Weight lifted minus
bodyweight. :)

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 11:40 PM
Will wrote:

> Fine, go ahead and spend your day searching for one that says your lift
> beats 700 at 350.

So a man gets on three different scales and wonders which one is the
right one.

Obvioulsy, the one that says he weighs the least.

Doesn't matter, I'm an athlete now, not a powerlifter.

Lifting is a means to an end for me.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
October 6th 04, 11:40 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
>>>>that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
>>>
>>>
>>>I didn't think you broke 400 at the meet you did? Was this a different
>>>time or done in the gym?
>>
>>365 at 168 = 2.2. Ok ~2.5 is overstating it.
>>
>>Math is hard. <giggle> I'm going to go make cookies for the boys.
>>
>>But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
>>strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
>>training.
>>
>>Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
>>PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
>>
>>Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
>>many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.
>>
>
> I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
> squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
> (Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)
>
> So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.
>
> Sheesh.

Clearly it's because I train in front of a mirror.

Lyle

Keith Hobman
October 6th 04, 11:47 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Keith Hobman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
> >>>>that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I didn't think you broke 400 at the meet you did? Was this a different
> >>>time or done in the gym?
> >>
> >>365 at 168 = 2.2. Ok ~2.5 is overstating it.
> >>
> >>Math is hard. <giggle> I'm going to go make cookies for the boys.
> >>
> >>But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
> >>strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
> >>training.
> >>
> >>Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
> >>PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
> >>
> >>Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
> >>many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart too.
> >>
> >
> > I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
> > squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
> > (Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)
> >
> > So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.
> >
> > Sheesh.
>
> Clearly it's because I train in front of a mirror.

You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
up till half way through the first corner...

Clearly _not_ the mirror...

:^)

Peter Allen
October 7th 04, 07:31 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Lee Michaels wrote:
>
> > "Lyle McDonald" wrote
> >
> >>But go figure this one: pound for pound in the back squat, I'm nearly as
> >>strong now (20 lbs lighter) as I was then, on top of a ton of other
> >>training.
> >>
> >>Today I singled 270 at 148. 1.83XBW
> >>PL meet was [email protected] = 1.92XBW
> >>
> >>Next year, I shoudl be stronger pound for pound than I was then, despite
> >>many more hours of training (mostly endurance). And I'm an old fart
too.
> >>
> >
> > Interesting.
> >
> > But those speed skaters generally have good leg development.
Patyicularly
> > the inner thigh area.
>
> yes. But it's a weird ****ing sport, even for an 'endurance' sport, it's
> really more power oriented. The longest metric race is 10k meters which
> takes about 13 minutes.
>
> I mean, I'm still doing continuous endurance training (maintenance
> loads, 3 hours/week) right now, most skaters don't even do that (I
> personaally think most of them lack fitness). But I've got 12 training
> units per week, of which 4 are pure strength, 2 are power (jumping), 3
> are ice technical and 3 are aerobic endurance.

Rowing's the same, that way - international races are over 2k, so even in a
2+ (coxed pair - waste of time boat, the cox might as well be a 50kg dead
weight) in **** conditions you're looking at under 10 minutes; in an 8 in
nice conditions, you'll need to be going well under 6 minutes just to avoid
last place in the bottom final. WR's 5:19 (USA 8+ Athens 2004).

And all vaguely decent rowers do a shedload of UT2 work - I'd be looking at
11 units/week now, of which 2 are strength work, and the other 9 are a mix
of technical and UT2 work (the difference right now being that UT2 has less
external coaching, but lots of in-boat comments, whereas technical work is
about AT for 500m with a coach on the bank, rest while he tells you what to
change, go again, but only for maybe 8k. Works better than low intensity,
since we want technique that works at race pace)

Peter

Helgi Briem
October 7th 04, 10:24 AM
On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:23:03 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>> > It's interesting that even though
>> > the all time deadlift records are held by fairly big guys, the all time
>> > best lifts weren't by 400 lb monsters like with the bench and squat.
>>
>> Yes, they are usually held by biomechanical freaks with some weird
>> anatomical quirk that lets them lever up insane weights.
>
>Not the supers. Heisey was a long, tall galoot with a normal spine. He did
>have both long arms and long legs.
>
>Reinhoudt before him was an almost 400 lb monster, so I'm not really sure
>Will is correct on this one.
>
>The freaks tend to rule the lighter weight classes tho...

Bob Peoples was pretty freaky
http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/BobPeoplespage.html
as was Torkel Ravndal
http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/1971/Interpl1.html

2 deadlifting specialists from the early days of the sport.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

"Don't worry about it, son. God is just messing with your head."

John Dunlop
October 7th 04, 11:34 AM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
> up till half way through the first corner...

There's those who wish you'd just beat him up, 'cause he's
round the bend already. ;-)

All the best!

--
Jock

Keith Hobman
October 7th 04, 03:22 PM
In article >, Helgi Briem
> wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 13:23:03 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >> > It's interesting that even though
> >> > the all time deadlift records are held by fairly big guys, the all time
> >> > best lifts weren't by 400 lb monsters like with the bench and squat.
> >>
> >> Yes, they are usually held by biomechanical freaks with some weird
> >> anatomical quirk that lets them lever up insane weights.
> >
> >Not the supers. Heisey was a long, tall galoot with a normal spine. He did
> >have both long arms and long legs.
> >
> >Reinhoudt before him was an almost 400 lb monster, so I'm not really sure
> >Will is correct on this one.
> >
> >The freaks tend to rule the lighter weight classes tho...
>
> Bob Peoples was pretty freaky
> http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/BobPeoplespage.html
> as was Torkel Ravndal
> http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/1971/Interpl1.html
>
> 2 deadlifting specialists from the early days of the sport.

What I said about SHW tho. Peoples only weighhed 180 or so. And Torkel
doesn't have any real freaky mechanical advantages - he is 6'6" and 320
lbs. Strong. No tricks, smoke or mirrors there!

Keith Hobman
October 7th 04, 03:23 PM
In article >, John Dunlop
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
> > up till half way through the first corner...
>
> There's those who wish you'd just beat him up, 'cause he's
> round the bend already. ;-)

LOL!

Did I say that? Dayum.

Lucas Buck
October 9th 04, 09:35 AM
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:59:46 -0600, (Keith Hobman) wrote:

>In article >, Tiger Hillside
> wrote:
>
>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>> they make sweat mumus?)
>
>Shin pads.
>
>Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>in your socks when you deadlift.

What about the OTHER TWO PIECES?????

Lucas Buck
October 9th 04, 09:38 AM
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:07:41 -0500, elzinator > wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:57:22 -0500, Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>[i]
>>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>> away when I get better?
>>
>>You want the bar close to the body. Don't hold it further away.
>>Wear knee high socks, 2 layers. You can put a shin guard in between them.
>>
>>This stuff has been discussed here a couple times at least. Work on
>>your googling, as in google groups.
>
>Speaking of this subject, has ANYONE here tried the suggestion posted
>by of putting the split plastic soda bottles on the
>bar rather than on the shins?

I tried that, but then I couldn't get the plates onto the bar over the bottles,
so I had to attach the plates to my shins. After that, I got confused.

John HUDSON
October 9th 04, 10:21 AM
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 01:38:17 -0700, Lucas Buck
> wrote:

>On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:07:41 -0500, elzinator > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:57:22 -0500, Jeff Finlayson wrote:[i]
>>>Tiger Hillside wrote:
>>>
>>>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>>> away when I get better?
>>>
>>>You want the bar close to the body. Don't hold it further away.
>>>Wear knee high socks, 2 layers. You can put a shin guard in between them.
>>>
>>>This stuff has been discussed here a couple times at least. Work on
>>>your googling, as in google groups.
>>
>>Speaking of this subject, has ANYONE here tried the suggestion posted
>>by of putting the split plastic soda bottles on the
>>bar rather than on the shins?
>
>I tried that, but then I couldn't get the plates onto the bar over the bottles,
>so I had to attach the plates to my shins. After that, I got confused.

Now that's funny LB!! ;o)

HAGW!!

zxcv
October 9th 04, 04:51 PM
Lyle McDonald > wrote in message >...
> Will wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Will wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Will wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article >,
> >>>>>Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>zxcv wrote:
> >>>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Does it really matter?
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> >>>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> >>>>
> >>>>Lyle
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> >>>deadlift is still pretty impressive.
> >>
> >>It's still only 2XBW.
> >
> >
> > That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
> > impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.
>
> This sort of reminds me of the flame war I had with John Carlo back in
> the day a bit.
>
> Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
> that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
>
> Of course, this discussion more likely represents us projecting our
> personal biases onto the equation than anything real.
>
> I'm little, so I prefer bodyweight comparisons.
> Being bigger, you prefer absolute and make excuses for a fat gut getting
> in the way during a DL. :)
>
> Que sera sera.
>
> Lyle

What impresses you impresses you. That is your decision. However
from a powerlifting perspective (which is my perspective) bodyweight
comparisons have little value. Looking at my past lifts I have done
at 198 and 242:

at 198:
squat 550 (2.80xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)
bench 380 (1.92xBWT) (actual weight 197.5)
deadlift 620 (3.16xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)
total 1540 (7.84xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)

at 242:
squat 650 (2.69xBWT) (actual weight 242)
bench 425 (1.80xBWT) (actual weight 235.5)
deadlift 700 (2.92xBWT) (actual weight 240)
total 1755 (7.31xBWT) (actual weight 240)

I had much better lift:bodyweight ratios at 198 but the lifts were
less competitive and to me much less impressive.

It reminds me of something Dave Tate said to me once regarding the
question of whether I should stay at 198 or allow myself to go up in
weight, "Why would you want to be smaller and weaker?"

Note: before you ask, all represented lifts above done drug free in
competition and wearing a belt (no suits, wraps, etc (except the
benches: no belt)).

Keith Hobman
October 9th 04, 05:31 PM
In article >,
(zxcv) wrote:

> Lyle McDonald > wrote in message
>...
> > Will wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Will wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>In article >,
> > >>> Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Will wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>In article >,
> > >>>>>Lyle McDonald > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>zxcv wrote:
> > >>>>>>FWIW I have pulled 700 this way
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>with tools ill-suited for the task so I am no arm-chair theorist.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>700 at what bodyweight and what gear?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Does it really matter?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Sure, if he's a 350 lb behemoth.
> > >>>>That makes a 700 lb DL rather unimpressive.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Lyle
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>At 350 leverages are compromised enough that at least to me, a 700 lb
> > >>>deadlift is still pretty impressive.
> > >>
> > >>It's still only 2XBW.
> > >
> > >
> > > That's why they have Wilk's formula etc. 2x bodyweight at 150 is less
> > > impressive than 2x bodyweight at 300, IMO.
> >
> > This sort of reminds me of the flame war I had with John Carlo back in
> > the day a bit.
> >
> > Of course, you carefully snipped that I went ~2.5XBW at 168, how does
> > that compare to 2XBW at 350? By wilkes or for you personally?
> >
> > Of course, this discussion more likely represents us projecting our
> > personal biases onto the equation than anything real.
> >
> > I'm little, so I prefer bodyweight comparisons.
> > Being bigger, you prefer absolute and make excuses for a fat gut getting
> > in the way during a DL. :)
> >
> > Que sera sera.
> >
> > Lyle
>
> What impresses you impresses you. That is your decision. However
> from a powerlifting perspective (which is my perspective) bodyweight
> comparisons have little value. Looking at my past lifts I have done
> at 198 and 242:
>
> at 198:
> squat 550 (2.80xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)
> bench 380 (1.92xBWT) (actual weight 197.5)
> deadlift 620 (3.16xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)
> total 1540 (7.84xBWT) (actual weight 196.5)
>
> at 242:
> squat 650 (2.69xBWT) (actual weight 242)
> bench 425 (1.80xBWT) (actual weight 235.5)
> deadlift 700 (2.92xBWT) (actual weight 240)
> total 1755 (7.31xBWT) (actual weight 240)
>
> I had much better lift:bodyweight ratios at 198 but the lifts were
> less competitive and to me much less impressive.
>
> It reminds me of something Dave Tate said to me once regarding the
> question of whether I should stay at 198 or allow myself to go up in
> weight, "Why would you want to be smaller and weaker?"
>
> Note: before you ask, all represented lifts above done drug free in
> competition and wearing a belt (no suits, wraps, etc (except the
> benches: no belt)).

Well. Now I know who this is!

Great to have you on this list. Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.

Lyle McDonald
October 9th 04, 05:35 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:

>>>I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
>>>squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
>>>(Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)
>>>
>>>So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.
>>>
>>>Sheesh.
>>
>>Clearly it's because I train in front of a mirror.
>
>
> You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
> up till half way through the first corner...

Gotta catch me first, fat boy.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
October 9th 04, 05:38 PM
Peter Allen wrote:


> And all vaguely decent rowers do a shedload of UT2 work - I'd be looking at
> 11 units/week now, of which 2 are strength work, and the other 9 are a mix
> of technical and UT2 work (the difference right now being that UT2 has less
> external coaching, but lots of in-boat comments, whereas technical work is
> about AT for 500m with a coach on the bank, rest while he tells you what to
> change, go again, but only for maybe 8k. Works better than low intensity,
> since we want technique that works at race pace)

I tend to do a mix of what you would call UT2 and UT1 work (I wish
endurance sprots would get their terminology the same). Extensive and
intensive endurance.

Of coures, skating is even weirder than I had originally imagined, as I
learn more about it. Even though it's continuous, the geenral tendency
is to really work the corners hard and then more or less maintain
velocity on the straights.

So the training is very interval based. I haven't wrapped my head
around it so I'm sticking with general aerobic conditioning
(non-specific) for the time being.

Lyle

Keith Hobman
October 9th 04, 05:42 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
> > In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > > wrote:
>
> >>>I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
> >>>squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
> >>>(Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)
> >>>
> >>>So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.
> >>>
> >>>Sheesh.
> >>
> >>Clearly it's because I train in front of a mirror.
> >
> >
> > You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
> > up till half way through the first corner...
>
> Gotta catch me first, fat boy.

That was my point. I'll get to halfway through the first turn before you can.

Used to be able to do it to junior speedskaters. Beat them to about
halfway through the first corner. I think the smaller blades on hockey
skates give you a faster start or something. And face it, if you were
speedskating in the 60's and early 70's in Saskatoon it meant you weren't
a good enough athlete to play hockey. Or seriously weird.

I mean. The toques. Jeez.

Lyle McDonald
October 9th 04, 06:15 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>I haven't been able to squat for a bit, but I'm impressed by that hi-bar
>>>>>squat. My ATTG high bar best is 455 and I don't see it coming up much.
>>>>>(Thats a no-no-no lift as well.)
>>>>>
>>>>>So just over 2x. And I'm supposed to be a power guy. Endurance is 5 reps.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sheesh.
>>>>
>>>>Clearly it's because I train in front of a mirror.
>>>
>>>
>>>You're gonna be ****ed when I put on a pair of hockey skates and beat you
>>>up till half way through the first corner...
>>
>>Gotta catch me first, fat boy.
>
>
> That was my point. I'll get to halfway through the first turn before you can.

your better bet is to just go the other direction on the oval, catch me
that way and get a good full face check in.

More seriously, they should have us skate that direction sometimes,
avoid hip and back problems and strength imbalances.

I'm told they do, occasionally, that everyone freaks out having to turn
the other direction. Pussies need to learn to inline. They'd get some
damn fitness AND be more well rounded.

>
> Used to be able to do it to junior speedskaters. Beat them to about
> halfway through the first corner. I think the smaller blades on hockey
> skates give you a faster start or something.

Probably a number of reasons that would give you faster initial
acceleration but lower top speed and harder to maintain it.

You see the same thing between shorter inlines (street skates) and
racing skates (longer runner).

Lyle

Peter Allen
October 9th 04, 10:42 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
>
> I tend to do a mix of what you would call UT2 and UT1 work (I wish
> endurance sprots would get their terminology the same). Extensive and
> intensive endurance.

Well, there is a proper lactate test definition for UT2, UT1, etc... not
that I can remember it, or that many people follow accurately.

> Of coures, skating is even weirder than I had originally imagined, as I
> learn more about it. Even though it's continuous, the geenral tendency
> is to really work the corners hard and then more or less maintain
> velocity on the straights.

Assuming you mean '... and this is good, another way would lose', then, I
sympathise. That's not nice.

> So the training is very interval based. I haven't wrapped my head
> around it so I'm sticking with general aerobic conditioning
> (non-specific) for the time being.

Past experience says that'll work, given a little while to transfer over to
race pace and peak. Although with a race pattern like you describe, you'll
need a lot of mental strength to keep the pace you're capable of through the
first few corners, especially if you've not had much practice seeing what
you can do for intervals leading up to the race.

You might want to try going over a race course, working all the corners
exactly the way you would in a race, but then easing off massively down the
straight bits where you'd normally maintain - not so much because it's good
training as to give you the confidence that you can really hit the corners,
go well over sustainable pace through them, and not blow up. It's always
much easier to do that in a real race than you think it will be in
practice - mainly because you will (or should) be so psyched up that you'll
not really feel any pain, you'll just be unable to push as hard as you want
to coming into the finish.

FWIW, I'd tend to feel that a nine-month training program leading up to The
Big Race ought to look roughly like:
0-6 months: starting mainly UT2, working gradually up to UT2/UT1 with some
AT race distance or greater intervals. Technique needs to be pretty much
where it should be by the end. This bit builds fitness and work capacity so
you're capable of doing the hard work properly.
7-8 months: enough UT2/UT1 to maintain base fitness, interval and speed
work, building from greater than race distance down towards race distance
and shorter - should be hitting race pace for about 1/3 distance single
pieces.
Technique should be being tweaked, big technical changes only if they're
necessary as there's not much time to make it second nature. This bit gives
you the sustained power you need for the race.
4-2 weeks to go: work down mileage, aim to lose most of residual fatigue
around 2 to go, mainly short interval and speed work, close to or above race
pace. Tiny technical tweaks only, big changes now will be lost in the race.
This bit gives you a bit more top-end power so you can execute a decent race
plan and respond to opponents' plans.
last 2 weeks: mileage down even further, standard peaking thing; no
seriously hard work, but within that as much time as possible at race pace
or above to make it feel natural. Confidence work, on technique as well as
on power output. This bit gives you the confidence in your ability to go out
on race day and turn in a genuine max perfomance, as opposed to holding back
a bit in the first half and not being able to pull it back in a frantic
sprint when you realize you're stronger than you thought.

Peter

Peter Allen
October 9th 04, 10:45 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> your better bet is to just go the other direction on the oval, catch me
> that way and get a good full face check in.
>
> More seriously, they should have us skate that direction sometimes,
> avoid hip and back problems and strength imbalances.

You could look up one Steve Redgrave - spent some 14 years at international
level rowing on bow-side, during which he won his 3rd, 4th, 5th Olympic
golds. Now walks slightly lopsided.

Peter

Lyle McDonald
October 10th 04, 12:28 AM
Peter Allen wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>your better bet is to just go the other direction on the oval, catch me
>>that way and get a good full face check in.
>>
>>More seriously, they should have us skate that direction sometimes,
>>avoid hip and back problems and strength imbalances.
>
>
> You could look up one Steve Redgrave - spent some 14 years at international
> level rowing on bow-side, during which he won his 3rd, 4th, 5th Olympic
> golds. Now walks slightly lopsided.

yes, I've heard of such things. ugly stuff.

A related incident almost led me to snap at one of the oher skaters a
couple of weeks ago.

noting that the skaters are, as a whole, not very friendly (I think they
carry the road cyclist elitist prick gene myself), one of the few times
I got talked to was to be co-opted into a helping with a drill involving
a turn cable. Bsaically a piece of stretch cord that you use to work on
turn mechanics. But you need a partner to be tethered too.

****ers don't say a word to me for 3 weeks until they need somtehing
from me. But I digree.

So I am helping out with the drill, they ask if I want to try it.

Sure, why not.

Tough. After a few repeats, I state that I am going to turn the other
way (work the other direction of the turn essentially).

One of the skaters informs me "you know, we only turn one direction in
skating."

Really?
I mean no ****ing ****.
You mean we don't get to race the other direction sometimes?

I didn't say any of that, mind you, it's what I was thinking.

I tell them that:
a. I also inline
b. If you don't work the other direction, you end up with hip and back
problems.

One of the other skaters mentions that "You know, the national team does
the drill going both directions."

Lyle

>

Lyle McDonald
October 10th 04, 12:39 AM
Peter Allen wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I tend to do a mix of what you would call UT2 and UT1 work (I wish
>>endurance sprots would get their terminology the same). Extensive and
>>intensive endurance.
>
>
> Well, there is a proper lactate test definition for UT2, UT1, etc... not
> that I can remember it, or that many people follow accurately.

Sure.

I've got a book on rowing and UT2 is listed as 130-150 HR which is
extensive endurance by most accounts, UT1 is 150-170 which is intensive
endurance (and there's other terminology as well). LT would be more
accurate to define them, of course. Those are fairly average values though.

>
>
>>Of coures, skating is even weirder than I had originally imagined, as I
>>learn more about it. Even though it's continuous, the geenral tendency
>>is to really work the corners hard and then more or less maintain
>>velocity on the straights.
>
>
> Assuming you mean '... and this is good, another way would lose',

I can only assume that that approach to racing was empiricaly developed
over the years.

I mean, it makes intuitive sense to me to try and accelerat the whole
time but that's not how most do it (sprints excepted). Rather, they try
to maintain essentially equal lap times, turns get worked hard (b/c you
can accelerate more easily because of the turn and centrifugal force)
and you simply maintain velocity on the straights while trying to get
some recovery.

Which is fundamentally different from the inline world I came from which
is more like normal endurance sports (pack cycling, mainly) where you
either go balls out the whole time (shorter distances) or have a lot
more variation in intensity (longer distance) with breaks, pack
slowdowns, crap like that.

>>So the training is very interval based. I haven't wrapped my head
>>around it so I'm sticking with general aerobic conditioning
>>(non-specific) for the time being.
>
>
> Past experience says that'll work, given a little while to transfer over to
> race pace and peak.

Oh, I don't expect it to carryover but I'm just now starting real
technical work with my coach, actual ice conditioning training is a long
way off and I may not even race this year (if he feels that my technical
development will be harmed by such, I'll work on technique for the next
6 months straight and forego racing until next season).

So I'm simply maintaining/developing my base further while I develop
technique (and maintain my strength). One thing I really feel that a
lot of the skaters lack (at least at the club level) is fitness b/c it's
hard to develop on the ice. Their idea of an aerobic workout is run 10',
dryland conditinoing for 5', run 10', abs for 5', just weak-ass stuff.
Mine is 2 hours on my inlines. My work capacity is monstrous comapred
to theirs because of the 1.5+ years of endurance training I have behind me.

He has indicated to me that, as my technique comes along, I'll be
skating more laps on the ice and developing specific conditioning. But
since I am disallowed from doing anything skate specific in terms of
conditioning right now (to avoid ****ing up motor learning), it's non
specific stuff on the stairmaster, bike, and running.


> You might want to try going over a race course, working all the corners
> exactly the way you would in a race,

Race course is an oval. Also very different from inline where you're
usually on raods with changing conditions, every turn is different. On
the ice, every corner is identical although inner and outer ahve
different turn radii and slightly different approaches.

but then easing off massively down the
> straight bits where you'd normally maintain - not so much because it's good
> training as to give you the confidence that you can really hit the corners,

At this point, I can barely skate the corners competently, much less
work them. Committing to a huge inner edge and body lean is scaring me
****less.

Say it with me: Lyle is a pussy.


> FWIW, I'd tend to feel that a nine-month training program leading up to The
> Big Race ought to look roughly like:
> 0-6 months: starting mainly UT2, working gradually up to UT2/UT1 with some
> AT race distance or greater intervals. Technique needs to be pretty much
> where it should be by the end. This bit builds fitness and work capacity so
> you're capable of doing the hard work properly.
> 7-8 months: enough UT2/UT1 to maintain base fitness, interval and speed
> work, building from greater than race distance down towards race distance
> and shorter - should be hitting race pace for about 1/3 distance single
> pieces.
> Technique should be being tweaked, big technical changes only if they're
> necessary as there's not much time to make it second nature. This bit gives
> you the sustained power you need for the race.
> 4-2 weeks to go: work down mileage, aim to lose most of residual fatigue
> around 2 to go, mainly short interval and speed work, close to or above race
> pace. Tiny technical tweaks only, big changes now will be lost in the race.
> This bit gives you a bit more top-end power so you can execute a decent race
> plan and respond to opponents' plans.
> last 2 weeks: mileage down even further, standard peaking thing; no
> seriously hard work, but within that as much time as possible at race pace
> or above to make it feel natural. Confidence work, on technique as well as
> on power output. This bit gives you the confidence in your ability to go out
> on race day and turn in a genuine max perfomance, as opposed to holding back
> a bit in the first half and not being able to pull it back in a frantic
> sprint when you realize you're stronger than you thought.
>

Lydiard does rowing, essentially.

Carmichael uses that basic approach for Lance, or so he claims in his
books. Course, he's also preparing for an extremely long-distance
event, not quite the same as your rowing events time or effort wise. I
could see a higher proportion of UT1, LT and AT work for that type of
event since you need relatively more anaerobic capacity/power. But have
to be very careful with it.

Lyle

zxcv
October 10th 04, 12:54 AM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> Well. Now I know who this is!
>

Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
posts.

> Great to have you on this list.

Thanks Keith. How are ya! I started reading MFW a few months back
and stopped TSO when I changed my email 2 years ago. Too much damn
SPAM. I watched the Olympics with a lot of interest to see how your
wrestler did.

> Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
> AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.

Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
month.

Good luck at the meet. Is this your first raw meet?

elzinator
October 10th 04, 01:06 AM
On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>> Well. Now I know who this is!
>>
>
>Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
>on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
>from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
>posts.

Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)

Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
no idea who you are.

>Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
>against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
>locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
>meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
>some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
>far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
>month.

Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
story-telling going on then.
The more the merrier.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Keith Hobman
October 10th 04, 03:21 AM
In article >,
(zxcv) wrote:

> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
> > Well. Now I know who this is!
> >
>
> Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
> on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
> from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
> posts.
>
> > Great to have you on this list.
>
> Thanks Keith. How are ya! I started reading MFW a few months back
> and stopped TSO when I changed my email 2 years ago. Too much damn
> SPAM. I watched the Olympics with a lot of interest to see how your
> wrestler did.
>
> > Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
> > AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.
>
> Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
> against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
> locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
> meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
> some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
> far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
> month.
>
> Good luck at the meet. Is this your first raw meet?

Did a raw bench and I've done the deadlift raw, but this is my first raw
meet. And squat. Probably my last for some time too. i intend to pursue
olympic lifting for a while.

The gear is just getting too crazy. Especially in the bench press. Even
with their 'tough' gear limits virtually all the IPF bench records are now
less than two years old.

BTW - I won't be giving out any names. I've been seeing some pretty weird
stuff happen with federation presidents and the internet myself.

Keith Hobman
October 10th 04, 03:26 AM
In article >, nospam.net wrote:

> On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
> >> Well. Now I know who this is!
> >>
> >
> >Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
> >on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
> >from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
> >posts.
>
> Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)
>
> Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
> no idea who you are.
>
> >Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
> >against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
> >locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
> >meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
> >some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
> >far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
> >month.
>
> Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
> mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
> trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
> enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
> story-telling going on then.
> The more the merrier.

The only reason I know is the mystery man was a guy whose lifting I
followed - mainly cuz I admired his integrity when it came to raw lifting.
I don't think there is too many left in MFW who will know him and those
that do won't be spreading names around. But I was grinning when I read
the 700 lb deadlift thing.

elzinator
October 10th 04, 04:07 AM
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:21:23 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>In article >,
(zxcv) wrote:
>
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
>> > Well. Now I know who this is!
>> >
>>
>> Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
>> on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
>> from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
>> posts.
>>
>> > Great to have you on this list.
>>
>> Thanks Keith. How are ya! I started reading MFW a few months back
>> and stopped TSO when I changed my email 2 years ago. Too much damn
>> SPAM. I watched the Olympics with a lot of interest to see how your
>> wrestler did.
>>
>> > Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
>> > AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.
>>
>> Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
>> against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
>> locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
>> meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
>> some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
>> far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
>> month.
>>
>> Good luck at the meet. Is this your first raw meet?
>
>Did a raw bench and I've done the deadlift raw, but this is my first raw
>meet. And squat. Probably my last for some time too. i intend to pursue
>olympic lifting for a while.
>
>The gear is just getting too crazy. Especially in the bench press. Even
>with their 'tough' gear limits virtually all the IPF bench records are now
>less than two years old.
>
>BTW - I won't be giving out any names. I've been seeing some pretty weird
>stuff happen with federation presidents and the internet myself.

Now if we can just convince you to keep private email addies to
yourself.......

;)


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 10th 04, 04:08 AM
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:26:34 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>
>> On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
>> >> Well. Now I know who this is!
>> >>
>> >
>> >Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
>> >on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
>> >from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
>> >posts.
>>
>> Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)
>>
>> Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
>> no idea who you are.
>>
>> >Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
>> >against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
>> >locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
>> >meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
>> >some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
>> >far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
>> >month.
>>
>> Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
>> mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
>> trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
>> enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
>> story-telling going on then.
>> The more the merrier.
>
>The only reason I know is the mystery man was a guy whose lifting I
>followed - mainly cuz I admired his integrity when it came to raw lifting.
>I don't think there is too many left in MFW who will know him and those
>that do won't be spreading names around. But I was grinning when I read
>the 700 lb deadlift thing.

Well, now you have my curiosity peaked.

However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Keith Hobman
October 10th 04, 04:32 AM
In article >, nospam.net wrote:

> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:26:34 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >In article >, nospam.net wrote:
> >
> >> On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> >> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> >...
> >> >> Well. Now I know who this is!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
> >> >on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
> >> >from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
> >> >posts.
> >>
> >> Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)
> >>
> >> Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
> >> no idea who you are.
> >>
> >> >Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
> >> >against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
> >> >locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
> >> >meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
> >> >some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
> >> >far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
> >> >month.
> >>
> >> Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
> >> mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
> >> trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
> >> enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
> >> story-telling going on then.
> >> The more the merrier.
> >
> >The only reason I know is the mystery man was a guy whose lifting I
> >followed - mainly cuz I admired his integrity when it came to raw lifting.
> >I don't think there is too many left in MFW who will know him and those
> >that do won't be spreading names around. But I was grinning when I read
> >the 700 lb deadlift thing.
>
> Well, now you have my curiosity peaked.
>
> However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
> And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.

Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
rowdies at the trail ride.

elzinator
October 10th 04, 04:51 AM
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:32:15 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:26:34 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>> >> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>> >...
>> >> >> Well. Now I know who this is!
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
>> >> >on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
>> >> >from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
>> >> >posts.
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)
>> >>
>> >> Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
>> >> no idea who you are.
>> >>
>> >> >Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
>> >> >against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
>> >> >locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
>> >> >meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
>> >> >some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
>> >> >far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
>> >> >month.
>> >>
>> >> Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
>> >> mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
>> >> trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
>> >> enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
>> >> story-telling going on then.
>> >> The more the merrier.
>> >
>> >The only reason I know is the mystery man was a guy whose lifting I
>> >followed - mainly cuz I admired his integrity when it came to raw lifting.
>> >I don't think there is too many left in MFW who will know him and those
>> >that do won't be spreading names around. But I was grinning when I read
>> >the 700 lb deadlift thing.
>>
>> Well, now you have my curiosity peaked.
>>
>> However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>> And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>
>Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>rowdies at the trail ride.

why don't you just convince him to join us?


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Keith Hobman
October 10th 04, 02:27 PM
In article >, nospam.net wrote:

> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:32:15 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >In article >, nospam.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:26:34 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >In article >, nospam.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 9 Oct 2004 16:54:19 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> >> >> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> >> >...
> >> >> >> Well. Now I know who this is!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
> >> >> >on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
> >> >> >from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
> >> >> >posts.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yeah, join the crowd. (one of the detriments of an Internet presence)
> >> >>
> >> >> Your 'secret' is safe from the rest of us; other than Keith, we have
> >> >> no idea who you are.
> >> >>
> >> >> >Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
> >> >> >against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
> >> >> >locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
> >> >> >meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
> >> >> >some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
> >> >> >far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
> >> >> >month.
> >> >>
> >> >> Too bad, Mystery Man (for want of a name/identity :)
> >> >> mfw will have a big presence in Laughliln. And we're all going for a
> >> >> trail ride after the meet, just in cast the glutes didn't get a good
> >> >> enough workout. (and campfire bbq) Should be some interesting
> >> >> story-telling going on then.
> >> >> The more the merrier.
> >> >
> >> >The only reason I know is the mystery man was a guy whose lifting I
> >> >followed - mainly cuz I admired his integrity when it came to raw lifting.
> >> >I don't think there is too many left in MFW who will know him and those
> >> >that do won't be spreading names around. But I was grinning when I read
> >> >the 700 lb deadlift thing.
> >>
> >> Well, now you have my curiosity peaked.
> >>
> >> However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
> >> And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
> >
> >Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
> >rowdies at the trail ride.
>
> why don't you just convince him to join us?

I'll try!

zxcv
October 10th 04, 04:38 PM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (zxcv) wrote:
>
> > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> >...
> > > Well. Now I know who this is!
> > >
> >
> > Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
> > on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
> > from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
> > posts.
> >
> > > Great to have you on this list.
> >
> > Thanks Keith. How are ya! I started reading MFW a few months back
> > and stopped TSO when I changed my email 2 years ago. Too much damn
> > SPAM. I watched the Olympics with a lot of interest to see how your
> > wrestler did.
> >
> > > Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
> > > AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.
> >
> > Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
> > against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
> > locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
> > meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
> > some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
> > far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
> > month.
> >
> > Good luck at the meet. Is this your first raw meet?
>
> Did a raw bench and I've done the deadlift raw, but this is my first raw
> meet. And squat. Probably my last for some time too. i intend to pursue
> olympic lifting for a while.
>
> The gear is just getting too crazy. Especially in the bench press. Even
> with their 'tough' gear limits virtually all the IPF bench records are now
> less than two years old.
>
> BTW - I won't be giving out any names. I've been seeing some pretty weird
> stuff happen with federation presidents and the internet myself.

Good luck with the olympic lifting. I am curious to see the ratios of
the SN:CJ and CJ to your best deadlift. Some of my friends do
strongman meets now instead of powerlifting. I would like to try
every strength sport (including triple-ply, what the heck) and do some
other sports too, but I just do not have the time, energy, money, etc
to do them all and do them at the best of my ability. So I pretty
much just stick with raw powerlifting.

The gear seems to be getting a lot more effective now. I just read in
PL USA that the all time bench record now exceeds the all time
deadlift record. When I started powerlifting it was almost 200 pounds
behind.

zxcv
October 10th 04, 04:40 PM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> > However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
> > And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>
> Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
> rowdies at the trail ride.

If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
unfortunately I am not going.

If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
SPAM.

DRS
October 10th 04, 04:47 PM
"zxcv" > wrote in message
om

[...]

> If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
> name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
> I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
> SPAM.

Just so you know, there are certain miserable ****heads in MFW who will now
make it their purpose in life to "expose" you. They have no respect for
anyone's rights or wishes. You are best advised to take discussions like
this out of Usenet altogether.

--

"There isn't a finite amount of oil in the Earth. It keeps being produced."
John Hanson

elzinator
October 10th 04, 04:49 PM
On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>> In article >,
>> (zxcv) wrote:
>>
>> > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>> >...
>> > > Well. Now I know who this is!
>> > >
>> >
>> > Alas. I gave too much info. I had decided to keep my name a secret
>> > on this forum. Among other problems, I once got a nasty phone call
>> > from a federation president based upon my somewhat inflammatory TSO
>> > posts.
>> >
>> > > Great to have you on this list.
>> >
>> > Thanks Keith. How are ya! I started reading MFW a few months back
>> > and stopped TSO when I changed my email 2 years ago. Too much damn
>> > SPAM. I watched the Olympics with a lot of interest to see how your
>> > wrestler did.
>> >
>> > > Are you going to be at Laughlin for the
>> > > AAU World's? I'm doing a raw meet there.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately not. I have not lifted in the AAU since 1999. Nothing
>> > against them. The meets just have not presented themselves in good
>> > locations. PL is more of a social activity for me and I only lift in
>> > meets that I can drive to with my friends. I would fly but only if
>> > some of them would come with me and none of them want to travel that
>> > far to meets anymore. I plan on hitting an ADAU meet in CT next
>> > month.
>> >
>> > Good luck at the meet. Is this your first raw meet?
>>
>> Did a raw bench and I've done the deadlift raw, but this is my first raw
>> meet. And squat. Probably my last for some time too. i intend to pursue
>> olympic lifting for a while.
>>
>> The gear is just getting too crazy. Especially in the bench press. Even
>> with their 'tough' gear limits virtually all the IPF bench records are now
>> less than two years old.
>>
>> BTW - I won't be giving out any names. I've been seeing some pretty weird
>> stuff happen with federation presidents and the internet myself.
>
>Good luck with the olympic lifting. I am curious to see the ratios of
>the SN:CJ and CJ to your best deadlift. Some of my friends do
>strongman meets now instead of powerlifting. I would like to try
>every strength sport (including triple-ply, what the heck) and do some
>other sports too, but I just do not have the time, energy, money, etc
>to do them all and do them at the best of my ability. So I pretty
>much just stick with raw powerlifting.
>
>The gear seems to be getting a lot more effective now. I just read in
>PL USA that the all time bench record now exceeds the all time
>deadlift record. When I started powerlifting it was almost 200 pounds
>behind.

The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
sport)

Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
just ain't right."

I guess it depends on one's values.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 10th 04, 04:55 PM
On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>> > However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>> > And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>>
>> Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>> rowdies at the trail ride.
>
>If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>unfortunately I am not going.
>
>If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.

I can empathize.

There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
contents and posters.

Just be aware of that and ignore them.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 10th 04, 05:18 PM
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:47:28 +1000, DRS wrote:
>"zxcv" > wrote in message
om
>
>[...]
>
>> If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>> name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
>> I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
>> SPAM.
>
>Just so you know, there are certain miserable ****heads in MFW who will now
>make it their purpose in life to "expose" you. They have no respect for
>anyone's rights or wishes. You are best advised to take discussions like
>this out of Usenet altogether.

Not necessary to leave, really. These same ****heads can be ignored.
Most here don't pay much attention to them anyway.

But I know what you mean.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

John M. Williams
October 10th 04, 05:40 PM
"DRS" > wrote:

>"zxcv" > wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>> name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
>> I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
>> SPAM.
>
>Just so you know, there are certain miserable ****heads in MFW who will now
>make it their purpose in life to "expose" you. They have no respect for
>anyone's rights or wishes.

[1] "Knowing" and "exposing" are two different things.
[2] Nobody has a right to Usenet anonymity.
[3] Some people's actions impede fulfillment of their wishes.
[4] Karma is a bitch.

Peter Allen
October 10th 04, 07:26 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Allen wrote:
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>So the training is very interval based. I haven't wrapped my head
> >>around it so I'm sticking with general aerobic conditioning
> >>(non-specific) for the time being.
> >
> >
> > Past experience says that'll work, given a little while to transfer over
to
> > race pace and peak.
>
> Oh, I don't expect it to carryover but I'm just now starting real
> technical work with my coach, actual ice conditioning training is a long
> way off and I may not even race this year (if he feels that my technical
> development will be harmed by such, I'll work on technique for the next
> 6 months straight and forego racing until next season).
>
> So I'm simply maintaining/developing my base further while I develop
> technique (and maintain my strength). One thing I really feel that a
> lot of the skaters lack (at least at the club level) is fitness b/c it's
> hard to develop on the ice. Their idea of an aerobic workout is run 10',
> dryland conditinoing for 5', run 10', abs for 5', just weak-ass stuff.
> Mine is 2 hours on my inlines. My work capacity is monstrous comapred
> to theirs because of the 1.5+ years of endurance training I have behind
me.

Which means when you and they come to doing real hard work (short intervals
and so on) you'll be able to do that much more at proper intensity without
burning out. Then you get faster. That's what I mean by transfer over.

> He has indicated to me that, as my technique comes along, I'll be
> skating more laps on the ice and developing specific conditioning. But
> since I am disallowed from doing anything skate specific in terms of
> conditioning right now (to avoid ****ing up motor learning), it's non
> specific stuff on the stairmaster, bike, and running.

Lovely. But I can understand that.

> > You might want to try going over a race course, working all the corners
> > exactly the way you would in a race,
>
> Race course is an oval. Also very different from inline where you're
> usually on raods with changing conditions, every turn is different. On
> the ice, every corner is identical although inner and outer ahve
> different turn radii and slightly different approaches.
>
> but then easing off massively down the
> > straight bits where you'd normally maintain - not so much because it's
good
> > training as to give you the confidence that you can really hit the
corners,
>
> At this point, I can barely skate the corners competently, much less
> work them. Committing to a huge inner edge and body lean is scaring me
> ****less.
>
> Say it with me: Lyle is a pussy.

:-)
I didn't really mean it from a technical POV, though, I just find that sort
of thing helps build confidence in your own ability. You have 99% of your
race performance depending on your genetics and training, and 1% depends on
your mental preparation, but when you get to a competitive level everyone
has the 99% and the 1% is where you must score. It's not exactly the primary
important thing when you're learning technique, though, it's the thing you
do not too long before the race when you probably can't afford to do a
proper flat-out trial run, and wouldn't be psyched for it anyway, but you
have to know what you can do.

<snip program>
> >
>
> Lydiard does rowing, essentially.
>
> Carmichael uses that basic approach for Lance, or so he claims in his
> books. Course, he's also preparing for an extremely long-distance
> event, not quite the same as your rowing events time or effort wise. I
> could see a higher proportion of UT1, LT and AT work for that type of
> event since you need relatively more anaerobic capacity/power. But have
> to be very careful with it.

Really easy to burn out or find yourself most of the way to a season peak
five months early, and either of those will kill your whole year.

Peter

Lyle McDonald
October 10th 04, 07:27 PM
Peter Allen wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...


>>So I'm simply maintaining/developing my base further while I develop
>>technique (and maintain my strength). One thing I really feel that a
>>lot of the skaters lack (at least at the club level) is fitness b/c it's
>>hard to develop on the ice. Their idea of an aerobic workout is run 10',
>>dryland conditinoing for 5', run 10', abs for 5', just weak-ass stuff.
>>Mine is 2 hours on my inlines. My work capacity is monstrous comapred
>>to theirs because of the 1.5+ years of endurance training I have behind
>
> me.
>
> Which means when you and they come to doing real hard work (short intervals
> and so on) you'll be able to do that much more at proper intensity without
> burning out. Then you get faster. That's what I mean by transfer over.

Gotcha. And I agree. As above, I'm convinced that my developed work
capacity will help me in the long run, by allowing me to do more quality
work when the time comes. Even if it just means being able to get
through the full ice time without tiring and losing technique, that's a
huge advantage. We have limited ice time (1.5 hours 3X/week open ice)
and I see skaters packing up at 45 minutes, presumably because they are
too tired to do any more work. Total waste.


>>Say it with me: Lyle is a pussy.
>
>
> :-)
> I didn't really mean it from a technical POV, though,

I know but you can't separate the two. Technical mastery of the turns
will, I suspect, turn out to be the key to this goofy ass sport. The
turns can make your race or break you.

I just find that sort
> of thing helps build confidence in your own ability. You have 99% of your
> race performance depending on your genetics and training, and 1% depends on
> your mental preparation, but when you get to a competitive level everyone
> has the 99% and the 1% is where you must score.

yes, coach got his MS in clinical psych because he realized that
psychological preparation was the key to it all.

Knowing that you have teh technical mastery, have teh fitness, have the
ability to hit the corner's hard every time is a psychological boost in
the long run. Doubting your abilities at race time will end up
hamstringing you because of the doubt itself.


>>Lydiard does rowing, essentially.
>>
>>Carmichael uses that basic approach for Lance, or so he claims in his
>>books. Course, he's also preparing for an extremely long-distance
>>event, not quite the same as your rowing events time or effort wise. I
>>could see a higher proportion of UT1, LT and AT work for that type of
>>event since you need relatively more anaerobic capacity/power. But have
>>to be very careful with it.
>
>
> Really easy to burn out or find yourself most of the way to a season peak
> five months early, and either of those will kill your whole year.

Yes, like I said, a fine line to walk. Just have to do it in very
carefuly measured quantities throughout the year and stick to the plan,
don't start adding workouts or volume at the higher intensities.

Lyle

John HUDSON
October 10th 04, 07:54 PM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:40:05 -0400, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>"DRS" > wrote:
>
>>"zxcv" > wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>>> name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
>>> I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
>>> SPAM.
>>
>>Just so you know, there are certain miserable ****heads in MFW who will now
>>make it their purpose in life to "expose" you. They have no respect for
>>anyone's rights or wishes.
>
>[1] "Knowing" and "exposing" are two different things.
>[2] Nobody has a right to Usenet anonymity.
>[3] Some people's actions impede fulfillment of their wishes.
>[4] Karma is a bitch.

And you are the worst possible kind of fraud. Sanctimony sits on your
shoulders like a Ralph Lauren shirt 5 sizes too large!!

Peter Allen
October 10th 04, 08:05 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> noting that the skaters are, as a whole, not very friendly (I think they
> carry the road cyclist elitist prick gene myself),

I'm inclined to object on principle (my second sport). But you're probably
right: either elitist prick or over-competitive *******; I hope I'm more the
latter than the former.

> one of the few times
> I got talked to was to be co-opted into a helping with a drill involving
> a turn cable. Bsaically a piece of stretch cord that you use to work on
> turn mechanics. But you need a partner to be tethered too.
>
> ****ers don't say a word to me for 3 weeks until they need somtehing
> from me. But I digree.
>
> So I am helping out with the drill, they ask if I want to try it.
>
> Sure, why not.
>
> Tough. After a few repeats, I state that I am going to turn the other
> way (work the other direction of the turn essentially).
>
> One of the skaters informs me "you know, we only turn one direction in
> skating."
>
> Really?
> I mean no ****ing ****.
> You mean we don't get to race the other direction sometimes?
>
> I didn't say any of that, mind you, it's what I was thinking.
>
> I tell them that:
> a. I also inline
> b. If you don't work the other direction, you end up with hip and back
> problems.
>
> One of the other skaters mentions that "You know, the national team does
> the drill going both directions."

:-)

Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the whole
scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
(technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate 40
(race rate, roughly) square blades.

Peter

John M. Williams
October 10th 04, 08:19 PM
John HUDSON > wrote:
> John M. Williams > wrote:
>>"DRS" > wrote:
>>>"zxcv" > wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>> If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>>>> name. I just want to keep my internet privacy. BTW my email is real.
>>>> I check it every few weeks and will read emails that do not look like
>>>> SPAM.
>>>
>>>Just so you know, there are certain miserable ****heads in MFW who will now
>>>make it their purpose in life to "expose" you. They have no respect for
>>>anyone's rights or wishes.
>>
>>[1] "Knowing" and "exposing" are two different things.
>>[2] Nobody has a right to Usenet anonymity.
>>[3] Some people's actions impede fulfillment of their wishes.
>>[4] Karma is a bitch.
>
>And you are the worst possible kind of fraud. Sanctimony sits on your
>shoulders like a Ralph Lauren shirt 5 sizes too large!!

Name the fraud, Hudson. I assume that posting under an anonym is not
a fraud, since you have done it frequently.

Keith Hobman
October 10th 04, 08:56 PM
In article >, nospam.net wrote:

> On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
> >> > However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
> >> > And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
> >>
> >> Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
> >> rowdies at the trail ride.
> >
> >If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
> >unfortunately I am not going.
> >
> >If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
> >name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>
> I can empathize.
>
> There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
> that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
> contents and posters.
>
> Just be aware of that and ignore them.

This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
only a belt. He is the real deal.

Lyle McDonald
October 10th 04, 09:06 PM
Peter Allen wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>noting that the skaters are, as a whole, not very friendly (I think they
>>carry the road cyclist elitist prick gene myself),
>
>
> I'm inclined to object on principle (my second sport). But you're probably
> right: either elitist prick or over-competitive *******; I hope I'm more the
> latter than the former.

the one skater I have talked to thinks it is the latter.

Pointst out that speed skating is as small sport without much chance ofr
money and such. As a consequence, he thinks that skaters are overly
competitive and protective of their spot in the sport. Possibly.

I still sense the elitist prick gene, esp. in the general attidue of ice
skaters to inliners switching over. They see inline as the *******
stepchild of their pure sport (with 100+ years of history) and don't
give inliners much credit. Which is why it's great that one of the top
inliners made the switch to ice and, 18 months later, was world champion.

>>I tell them that:
>>a. I also inline
>>b. If you don't work the other direction, you end up with hip and back
>>problems.
>>
>>One of the other skaters mentions that "You know, the national team does
>>the drill going both directions."
>
>
> :-)
>
> Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the whole
> scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
> performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
> (technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate 40
> (race rate, roughly) square blades.

Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
wasn't ideal.

Basically, it is better to train both directions, even if you only skate
in the one. Same reason that other sports which are single side
dominant need to work the other directin: avoids severe imbalances and
joint problems down the road.

Or I may be misunderstanding your example.

Lyle

John M. Williams
October 10th 04, 09:12 PM
(Keith Hobman) wrote:

>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>
>> On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
>> >> > However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>> >> > And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>> >>
>> >> Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>> >> rowdies at the trail ride.
>> >
>> >If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>> >unfortunately I am not going.
>> >
>> >If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>> >name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>>
>> I can empathize.
>>
>> There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>> that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>> contents and posters.
>>
>> Just be aware of that and ignore them.
>
>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>only a belt. He is the real deal.

Don't mistake general whinging for a challenge to his credentials. I
don't think anyone has questioned his lifts.

Peter Allen
October 10th 04, 09:20 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Allen wrote:
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>noting that the skaters are, as a whole, not very friendly (I think they
> >>carry the road cyclist elitist prick gene myself),
> >
> >
> > I'm inclined to object on principle (my second sport). But you're
probably
> > right: either elitist prick or over-competitive *******; I hope I'm more
the
> > latter than the former.
>
> the one skater I have talked to thinks it is the latter.
>
> Pointst out that speed skating is as small sport without much chance ofr
> money and such. As a consequence, he thinks that skaters are overly
> competitive and protective of their spot in the sport. Possibly.
>
> I still sense the elitist prick gene, esp. in the general attidue of ice
> skaters to inliners switching over. They see inline as the *******
> stepchild of their pure sport (with 100+ years of history) and don't
> give inliners much credit. Which is why it's great that one of the top
> inliners made the switch to ice and, 18 months later, was world champion.
>
> >>I tell them that:
> >>a. I also inline
> >>b. If you don't work the other direction, you end up with hip and back
> >>problems.
> >>
> >>One of the other skaters mentions that "You know, the national team does
> >>the drill going both directions."
> >
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the whole
> > scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
> > performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
> > (technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate 40
> > (race rate, roughly) square blades.
>
> Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
> directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
> wasn't ideal.

Sorry - meant

'you know, we only turn one direction in skating.'

that one.

> Basically, it is better to train both directions, even if you only skate
> in the one. Same reason that other sports which are single side
> dominant need to work the other directin: avoids severe imbalances and
> joint problems down the road.

Yes, agreed. Hence me spending most of my time in sculling boats (2 oars, no
imbalances) at the minute.

Peter

Lyle McDonald
October 10th 04, 10:54 PM
Peter Allen wrote:


>>>Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the whole
>>>scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
>>>performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
>>>(technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate 40
>>>(race rate, roughly) square blades.
>>
>>Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
>>directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
>>wasn't ideal.
>
>
> Sorry - meant
>
> 'you know, we only turn one direction in skating.'
>
> that one.

Got it, confused the 'You knows' in the different sections.
In his case, I totally agree. He might be a decent skater (I really
have no eye for such at this point) but only if he dropped about 20
pounds of lard or so.

But he also taught me how to get Mormons to leave me alone (noting that
I did not know he was Mormon when this happened).

Was the end of a long day of training, 1.5 hours jumping in the morning,
2 hours skating/dryland in evening. I was TIRED. Waiting for the one
guy I talk to to do dinner.

Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
And I say "I am really ****ing tired."

He just turned and walked away.

Lyle

Joe Van Dyk
October 10th 04, 11:00 PM
On 2004-10-02 13:22:46 -0700, MJL > said:

> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:59:46 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
>> In article >, Tiger Hillside
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I assumed this would have been discussed, but I did not find it in
>>> Google. Doing deadlifts leaves my shins literally bloody. The bar hits
>>> and scrapes my shins and is actually drawing blood. Is this just to be
>>> expected and tolerated? Will I be able to hold it just a bit further
>>> away when I get better? Do I wear sweat pants rather than shorts? (Do
>>> they make sweat mumus?)
>>
>> Shin pads.
>>
>> Take 2 litre pop bottle - empty - cut off top and bottom and then slice
>> into 4 vertical pieces. Take two pieces to the gym with you and stick them
>> in your socks when you deadlift.
>
> They also have an alternate use...assuming your mother is still alive.

Oooh, what what?

zxcv
October 10th 04, 11:54 PM
elzinator > wrote in message >...
> On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
> The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
> that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
> on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> sport)
>
> Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> just ain't right."
>
> I guess it depends on one's values.
>

Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
on a level playing field.

elzinator
October 10th 04, 11:57 PM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:56:36 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>
>> On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
>> >> > However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>> >> > And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>> >>
>> >> Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>> >> rowdies at the trail ride.
>> >
>> >If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>> >unfortunately I am not going.
>> >
>> >If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>> >name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>>
>> I can empathize.
>>
>> There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>> that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>> contents and posters.
>>
>> Just be aware of that and ignore them.
>
>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>only a belt. He is the real deal.

I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.

I was just warning him.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 12:02 AM
elzinator wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:56:36 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>>>
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>>
>...
>>
>>>>>>However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>>>>>>And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>>>>>rowdies at the trail ride.
>>>>
>>>>If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>>>>unfortunately I am not going.
>>>>
>>>>If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>>>>name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>>>
>>>I can empathize.
>>>
>>>There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>>>that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>>>contents and posters.
>>>
>>>Just be aware of that and ignore them.
>>
>>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>>only a belt. He is the real deal.
>
>
> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
> out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.

Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken seriously.

I know, I have 3-4 of them on my forum currently acting like dip****s.

Lyle

Proton Soup
October 11th 04, 12:25 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:54:11 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Peter Allen wrote:
>
>
>>>>Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the whole
>>>>scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
>>>>performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
>>>>(technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate 40
>>>>(race rate, roughly) square blades.
>>>
>>>Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
>>>directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
>>>wasn't ideal.
>>
>>
>> Sorry - meant
>>
>> 'you know, we only turn one direction in skating.'
>>
>> that one.
>
>Got it, confused the 'You knows' in the different sections.
>In his case, I totally agree. He might be a decent skater (I really
>have no eye for such at this point) but only if he dropped about 20
>pounds of lard or so.
>
>But he also taught me how to get Mormons to leave me alone (noting that
>I did not know he was Mormon when this happened).
>
>Was the end of a long day of training, 1.5 hours jumping in the morning,
>2 hours skating/dryland in evening. I was TIRED. Waiting for the one
>guy I talk to to do dinner.
>
>Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
>And I say "I am really ****ing tired."
>
>He just turned and walked away.

Hehe, gotta remember that. I got to visit SLC once for some stupid
conference, and if I ever get to go back that way, there are two
places I'd like to pay a visit (besides the canyons on the eastern
ridge). One is a little Mexican restaurant on the road that goes out
to the airport called The Red Iguana. They make some really good
moles. Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon. They actually had decent
beer there at the time, like Guinness.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Lee Michaels
October 11th 04, 12:45 AM
"Lyle McDonald" wrote

> Peter Allen wrote:
>
>
> >>>Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the
whole
> >>>scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
> >>>performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
> >>>(technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate
40
> >>>(race rate, roughly) square blades.
> >>
> >>Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
> >>directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
> >>wasn't ideal.
> >
> >
> > Sorry - meant
> >
> > 'you know, we only turn one direction in skating.'
> >
> > that one.
>
> Got it, confused the 'You knows' in the different sections.
> In his case, I totally agree. He might be a decent skater (I really
> have no eye for such at this point) but only if he dropped about 20
> pounds of lard or so.
>
> But he also taught me how to get Mormons to leave me alone (noting that
> I did not know he was Mormon when this happened).
>
> Was the end of a long day of training, 1.5 hours jumping in the morning,
> 2 hours skating/dryland in evening. I was TIRED. Waiting for the one
> guy I talk to to do dinner.
>
> Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
> And I say "I am really ****ing tired."
>
> He just turned and walked away.
>
Is THAT the secret mormon antidote??

Or is there another?

DRS
October 11th 04, 12:48 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message

> elzinator wrote:

[...]

>> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>> out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>
> Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
> individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken
> seriously.

But that's not why they go after anonymous posters though.

--

"There isn't a finite amount of oil in the Earth. It keeps being produced."
John Hanson

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 12:53 AM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
>
>>Peter Allen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>Hopefully not being offensive here, but that 'you know...' and the
>
> whole
>
>>>>>scene sounds exactly like the attitude of a wannabe group in a low
>>>>>performance rowing club, same types who refuse to do square blades work
>>>>>(technical drill, very useful for many things) because you can't rate
>
> 40
>
>>>>>(race rate, roughly) square blades.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe, I think it was more her realizing that I was correct in switching
>>>>directions and that their method of only working the strong direction
>>>>wasn't ideal.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry - meant
>>>
>>>'you know, we only turn one direction in skating.'
>>>
>>>that one.
>>
>>Got it, confused the 'You knows' in the different sections.
>>In his case, I totally agree. He might be a decent skater (I really
>>have no eye for such at this point) but only if he dropped about 20
>>pounds of lard or so.
>>
>>But he also taught me how to get Mormons to leave me alone (noting that
>>I did not know he was Mormon when this happened).
>>
>>Was the end of a long day of training, 1.5 hours jumping in the morning,
>>2 hours skating/dryland in evening. I was TIRED. Waiting for the one
>>guy I talk to to do dinner.
>>
>>Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
>>And I say "I am really ****ing tired."
>>
>>He just turned and walked away.
>>
>
> Is THAT the secret mormon antidote??
>
> Or is there another?

Seriously foul language seems to be more than sufficient.
Although, as laid back as many Mormons are (the faith seems to have a
built in 'Do whatever makes you happy thing' to it), maybe not.

Have a good mormon friend, used to curse around him a lot.
One day, he says (exceptionally politely, mind you) that it bothers him
a bit, just generalized stress to hearing it.

Fair enough, I stopped. Losing his friendship certainly wasn't worth
not changing this particular (rather trivial) behavior.

So cursing may not be a geeneralized antidote. I suspect chanting 'Io
Yog Sothoth' might work well.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 12:54 AM
DRS wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
>
>
>>elzinator wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>>>consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>>>reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>>>out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>>
>>Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>>individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken
>>seriously.
>
>
> But that's not why they go after anonymous posters though.

Same thing in my mind.
You can make all the excuses you want, but most of the time an anonymous
****head is exactly that (cf: look in the mirror, bozo), can't give
anything he says credibility unless they do something to demonstrate it.

I do not have high hopes for you at this point.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 12:57 AM
Proton Soup wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:54:11 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:

>>Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
>>And I say "I am really ****ing tired."
>>
>>He just turned and walked away.
>
>
> Hehe, gotta remember that. I got to visit SLC once for some stupid
> conference, and if I ever get to go back that way, there are two
> places I'd like to pay a visit (besides the canyons on the eastern
> ridge). One is a little Mexican restaurant on the road that goes out
> to the airport called The Red Iguana. They make some really good
> moles.

I'll be honest that I have more or less gotten comfortable with this
town, the mind numbing boredom doesn't get to me since I have training
and enough other stuff to keep me busy. Settled into a nice rhythm.

But the food, the lack of Tex-Mex or a decent plate of fajitas
(Applebee's is ok but barely).
That's going to be the end of me.


Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
> by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon.

I can say that, since I had to check it out, the strip clubs here are
the most boring thing I have ever experienced.

I did check out hte Temple 2 weekend ago. I found it terribly ironic
taht there was a sex shop a couple of blocks away. I wonder if you can
attach stockings to a garment with garters....

Lyle

DRS
October 11th 04, 01:09 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message

> DRS wrote:
>> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> elzinator wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>>>> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>>>> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they
>>>> go out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>>>
>>> Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>>> individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken
>>> seriously.
>>
>> But that's not why they go after anonymous posters though.
>
> Same thing in my mind.
> You can make all the excuses you want, but most of the time an
> anonymous ****head is exactly that (cf: look in the mirror, bozo),
> can't give anything he says credibility unless they do something to
> demonstrate it.

An argument stands or falls on its merits, not on who makes it.

> I do not have high hopes for you at this point.

When and if I start claiming 800 pound deadlifts you'll have a point. Until
then you're just ignoring it.

--

"There isn't a finite amount of oil in the Earth. It keeps being produced."
John Hanson

John M. Williams
October 11th 04, 01:29 AM
"DRS" > wrote:
>"Lyle McDonald" > wrote:
>> elzinator wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>>> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>>> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>>> out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>>
>> Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>> individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken
>> seriously.
>
>But that's not why they go after anonymous posters though.

Actually, that's why a lot of people have gone after you:
for pretending that you know everything and never admitting when
you're wrong. People were doing the same thing to you in soc.motss
long before you came here.

Proton Soup
October 11th 04, 02:14 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:57:24 -0600, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>Proton Soup wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:54:11 -0600, Lyle McDonald
>> > wrote:
>
>>>Mormon comes at me with "So, how's life?"
>>>And I say "I am really ****ing tired."
>>>
>>>He just turned and walked away.
>>
>>
>> Hehe, gotta remember that. I got to visit SLC once for some stupid
>> conference, and if I ever get to go back that way, there are two
>> places I'd like to pay a visit (besides the canyons on the eastern
>> ridge). One is a little Mexican restaurant on the road that goes out
>> to the airport called The Red Iguana. They make some really good
>> moles.
>
>I'll be honest that I have more or less gotten comfortable with this
>town, the mind numbing boredom doesn't get to me since I have training
>and enough other stuff to keep me busy. Settled into a nice rhythm.
>
>But the food, the lack of Tex-Mex or a decent plate of fajitas
>(Applebee's is ok but barely).
>That's going to be the end of me.

I don't think it was Tex-Mex, I believe what they were going for was
authentic Mexican cuisine. But if it's still there, I'd give it a
shot. This was about 6 years ago, btw.

>Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
>> by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon.
>
>I can say that, since I had to check it out, the strip clubs here are
>the most boring thing I have ever experienced.
>
>I did check out hte Temple 2 weekend ago. I found it terribly ironic
>taht there was a sex shop a couple of blocks away. I wonder if you can
>attach stockings to a garment with garters....

Never went to a strip club, but yeah, having that so close together is
bizarre. The bar was just down an alley going east from the temple.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

elzinator
October 11th 04, 03:48 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:02:59 -0600, Lyle McDonald wrote:
>elzinator wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:56:36 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>>>>
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>>>
>...
>>>
>>>>>>>However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>>>>>>>And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>>>>>>rowdies at the trail ride.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>>>>>unfortunately I am not going.
>>>>>
>>>>>If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>>>>>name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>>>>
>>>>I can empathize.
>>>>
>>>>There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>>>>that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>>>>contents and posters.
>>>>
>>>>Just be aware of that and ignore them.
>>>
>>>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>>>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>>>only a belt. He is the real deal.
>>
>>
>> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>> out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>
>Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken seriously.

Sure, when they act like ****wads, anonymous or not, but not all
anonymous posters are ****wads.

There are many known ****wads on this forum whom are not taken
seriously, too.


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 11th 04, 03:49 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:02:59 -0600, Lyle McDonald wrote:
>elzinator wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:56:36 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, nospam.net wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:40:32 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>>>>
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>>>
>...
>>>
>>>>>>>However, the invitation for him to join us in Laughlin stands, aye?
>>>>>>>And for the trail ride/bbq afterward.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yeah. Good guy. I'll see if he'll let his name out to the select few
>>>>>>rowdies at the trail ride.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I was going to Laughlin I would definitely join you but
>>>>>unfortunately I am not going.
>>>>>
>>>>>If there is anyone that knows me that you trust you can tell them my
>>>>>name. I just want to keep my internet privacy.
>>>>
>>>>I can empathize.
>>>>
>>>>There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>>>>that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>>>>contents and posters.
>>>>
>>>>Just be aware of that and ignore them.
>>>
>>>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>>>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>>>only a belt. He is the real deal.
>>
>>
>> I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>> consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>> reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>> out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>
>Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken seriously.


BTW, what's a '****wad'?
Sounds like a bad disease :)


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 11th 04, 03:50 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:54:36 -0600, Lyle McDonald wrote:
>DRS wrote:
>
>> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>elzinator wrote:
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>>I have no doubt. Regardless, there are a few here on this forum who
>>>>consider any poster who desires to retain some anonymity, for valid
>>>>reasons or just preference, as incredulous and 'posers'. And they go
>>>>out of their way to be assholes/bullies about it.
>>>
>>>Because, 99 times out of 100, anonymous ****wads are exactly that:
>>>individusl who make unverified claims and expect to be taken
>>>seriously.
>>
>>
>> But that's not why they go after anonymous posters though.
>
>Same thing in my mind.
>You can make all the excuses you want, but most of the time an anonymous
>****head is exactly that (cf: look in the mirror, bozo), can't give
>anything he says credibility unless they do something to demonstrate it.

I don't think that is what he meant.
ANd you know what I mean.

or something.

---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 11th 04, 03:53 AM
On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>elzinator > wrote in message >...
>> On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>> The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
>> that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
>> others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
>> much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
>> on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
>> sport)
>>
>> Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
>> shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
>> just ain't right."
>>
>> I guess it depends on one's values.
>>
>
>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
>on a level playing field.

The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
lifter in the entire meet.

Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
competition?


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

elzinator
October 11th 04, 03:54 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:25:19 -0500, Proton Soup wrote:

>Hehe, gotta remember that. I got to visit SLC once for some stupid
>conference, and if I ever get to go back that way, there are two
>places I'd like to pay a visit (besides the canyons on the eastern
>ridge). One is a little Mexican restaurant on the road that goes out
>to the airport called The Red Iguana. They make some really good
>moles.



>Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
>by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon. They actually had decent
>beer there at the time, like Guinness.

Now that sounds like my kinda place.
The Dead Goat Saloon.
So if I walk in with a dead pig, will they butt me?


---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 05:12 AM
elzinator wrote:

> On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>
>>elzinator > wrote in message >...
>>
>>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
>>>
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...
>>>
>>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
>>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
>>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
>>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
>>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
>>>sport)
>>>
>>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
>>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
>>>just ain't right."
>>>
>>>I guess it depends on one's values.
>>>
>>
>>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
>>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
>>on a level playing field.
>
>
> The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> lifter in the entire meet.
>
> Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> competition?

Look in the mirror.
there's your competition.

Lyle

Proton Soup
October 11th 04, 05:32 AM
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:54:39 -0500, elzinator
> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:25:19 -0500, Proton Soup wrote:

>>Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
>>by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon. They actually had decent
>>beer there at the time, like Guinness.
>
>Now that sounds like my kinda place.
>The Dead Goat Saloon.
>So if I walk in with a dead pig, will they butt me?

Uh, you lost me. Is this a reference to Texan BBQ, or one of those
"So a lady walks into a bar with a pig..." jokes?

Oh, and their logo was a mountain goat skull I think, one of those
with the curly horns.

And yeah, it probably is your kinda place. :)

-----------
Proton Soup

"Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum."

Lyle McDonald
October 11th 04, 05:59 AM
Proton Soup wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:54:39 -0500, elzinator
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:25:19 -0500, Proton Soup wrote:
>
>
>>>Another, and I know you rarely drink, is a little dive bar up
>>>by the temple called The Dead Goat Saloon. They actually had decent
>>>beer there at the time, like Guinness.
>>
>>Now that sounds like my kinda place.
>>The Dead Goat Saloon.
>>So if I walk in with a dead pig, will they butt me?
>
>
> Uh, you lost me. Is this a reference to Texan BBQ, or one of those
> "So a lady walks into a bar with a pig..." jokes?

I'm guessing neither, simply the idea of bringing the wrong dead animal
to the bar.


Lyle

Pat Styles
October 12th 04, 03:01 PM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
> > elzinator wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > >
> > >>elzinator > wrote in message
> >...
> > >>
> > >>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > >>>
> > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> >...
> > >>>
> > >>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
> > >>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> > >>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> > >>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
> > >>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> > >>>sport)
> > >>>
> > >>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> > >>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> > >>>just ain't right."
> > >>>
> > >>>I guess it depends on one's values.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
> > >>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
> > >>on a level playing field.
> > >
> > >
> > > The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> > > Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> > > raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> > > lifter in the entire meet.
> > >
> > > Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> > > competition?
> >
> > Look in the mirror.
> > there's your competition.
>
> I can internally visualize myself...

And it's not a pretty picture.

> HTH.

Anything which saves me from visualizing you certainly helps. Thank you. ;-)
ps

Keith Hobman
October 12th 04, 03:01 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> elzinator wrote:
>
> > On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> >
> >>elzinator > wrote in message
>...
> >>
> >>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> >>>
> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
> >>>
> >>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
> >>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> >>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> >>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
> >>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> >>>sport)
> >>>
> >>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> >>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> >>>just ain't right."
> >>>
> >>>I guess it depends on one's values.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
> >>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
> >>on a level playing field.
> >
> >
> > The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> > Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> > raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> > lifter in the entire meet.
> >
> > Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> > competition?
>
> Look in the mirror.
> there's your competition.

I can internally visualize myself...

HTH.

Keith Hobman
October 12th 04, 03:18 PM
In article <[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> wrote:

> "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > elzinator wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>elzinator > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > >>
> > > >>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts, so
> > > >>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> > > >>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> > > >>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with Keith
> > > >>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> > > >>>sport)
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> > > >>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> > > >>>just ain't right."
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I guess it depends on one's values.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
> > > >>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
> > > >>on a level playing field.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> > > > Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> > > > raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> > > > lifter in the entire meet.
> > > >
> > > > Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> > > > competition?
> > >
> > > Look in the mirror.
> > > there's your competition.
> >
> > I can internally visualize myself...
>
> And it's not a pretty picture.

You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.

Lyle McDonald
October 12th 04, 03:47 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

>>>>Look in the mirror.
>>>>there's your competition.
>>>
>>>I can internally visualize myself...
>>
>>And it's not a pretty picture.
>
>
> You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
> powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.

See thread "Self-delusion as a coping tool."

Lyle

Keith Hobman
October 12th 04, 04:01 PM
In article >, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
> >>>>Look in the mirror.
> >>>>there's your competition.
> >>>
> >>>I can internally visualize myself...
> >>
> >>And it's not a pretty picture.
> >
> >
> > You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
> > powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.
>
> See thread "Self-delusion as a coping tool."

LOL!!

Seth Breidbart
October 13th 04, 12:58 AM
In article >,
Keith Hobman > wrote:
>In article >, nospam.net wrote:

>> There are select individuals here in this forum who take issue with
>> that and insist on discrediting and/or demeaning anonymous post
>> contents and posters.

>This guy isn't anonymous - to me. I know who he is and can vouch for his
>lifts - every one. And also that they were done with no supportive gear -
>only a belt. He is the real deal.

And that buys him plenty of credibility.

Seth
--
Sometimes we have to forget studies and theories and just lift like a
****er! -- George UK

Pat Styles
October 13th 04, 02:00 AM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > elzinator wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>elzinator > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts,
so
> > > > >>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> > > > >>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> > > > >>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with
Keith
> > > > >>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> > > > >>>sport)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> > > > >>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> > > > >>>just ain't right."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>I guess it depends on one's values.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can just say no
> > > > >>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can compete
> > > > >>on a level playing field.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> > > > > Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> > > > > raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> > > > > lifter in the entire meet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> > > > > competition?
> > > >
> > > > Look in the mirror.
> > > > there's your competition.
> > >
> > > I can internally visualize myself...
> >
> > And it's not a pretty picture.
>
> You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
> powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.

Oh, so you're back to being a pl (but only when it suits you, right?)?
ps

Keith Hobman
October 13th 04, 05:13 AM
In article <o7%[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> wrote:

> "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In article >, Lyle McDonald
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > elzinator wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 10 Oct 2004 15:54:25 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>elzinator > wrote in message
> > > > >...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>On 10 Oct 2004 08:38:23 -0700, zxcv wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
> > > > >...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>The gear used is more effective for bench than it is for deadlifts,
> so
> > > > > >>>that doesn't surprise anyone. Regardless, like Keith, I and many
> > > > > >>>others here feel that the gear is out of hand. It's more of a "how
> > > > > >>>much can I cheat and be legal' contest now. I can empathize with
> Keith
> > > > > >>>on why he prefers OLing to PLing. (that and the pettiness in the
> > > > > >>>sport)
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>Even a few other PLs I've worked/trained with after using a bench
> > > > > >>>shirt responded "That was too easy. It feels like 'cheating.' That
> > > > > >>>just ain't right."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>I guess it depends on one's values.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Well if you are uncomfortable with escalating gear you can
just say no
> > > > > >>and lift raw. There are several organizations now so you can
compete
> > > > > >>on a level playing field.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The problem is that it doesn't share the same popularity. Here in
> > > > > > Texas, there are very few (very very few) raw lifters. If you lift
> > > > > > raw, you are in the class all by yourself. You may be the ONLY raw
> > > > > > lifter in the entire meet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not that that precludes one from lifting raw, but where's the
> > > > > > competition?
> > > > >
> > > > > Look in the mirror.
> > > > > there's your competition.
> > > >
> > > > I can internally visualize myself...
> > >
> > > And it's not a pretty picture.
> >
> > You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
> > powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.
>
> Oh, so you're back to being a pl (but only when it suits you, right?)?
> ps

I've got the meet in Laughlin, then it will be on hold for at least a year.

Seriously.

I'm going to try and become an athlete again. All the bench presses kill
my ability to throw and I feel as stiff as a board, even with a lot of
stretching. Olympic lifting fits in well with what I want to do, but I
there will also be a lot of sprinting and an effort to get my right arm
back in shape.

I think the general tightness of the rotators kills my throwing arm. At
least, that is what I hope is causing it. I focused more on olympic
lifting during the spring and my arm was coming along pretty good. But my
bench really dropped and I started working to bring it up. As soon as I do
I can feel the tightness in the snatch and the jerk. And I start becoming
very erratic with my throws - terrible release. Could be something else,
but I'm going to make an effort to get in baseball shape.

If the arm comes back, then PL will be on hold for some time. I think OL
is far more athletic anyhow. If the arm doesn't come back and the OL's
don't go up, then I may be resigned to being a genetic dump truck.

:^)

Pat Styles
October 13th 04, 03:31 PM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article <o7%[email protected]>, "Pat Styles"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message

> > > You must be mistaking me with someone else. Surely the prettiest man in
> > > powerlifting make a very pretty picture. Surely.
> >
> > Oh, so you're back to being a pl (but only when it suits you, right?)?
> > ps
>
> I've got the meet in Laughlin, then it will be on hold for at least a year.
>
> Seriously.
>
> I'm going to try and become an athlete again. All the bench presses kill
> my ability to throw and I feel as stiff as a board, even with a lot of
> stretching. Olympic lifting fits in well with what I want to do, but I
> there will also be a lot of sprinting and an effort to get my right arm
> back in shape.

Ah, you've seen the light and are going to work on a real sport again, baseball.

> I think the general tightness of the rotators kills my throwing arm. At
> least, that is what I hope is causing it. I focused more on olympic
> lifting during the spring and my arm was coming along pretty good. But my
> bench really dropped and I started working to bring it up. As soon as I do
> I can feel the tightness in the snatch and the jerk. And I start becoming
> very erratic with my throws - terrible release. Could be something else,
> but I'm going to make an effort to get in baseball shape.

Good man.

> If the arm comes back, then PL will be on hold for some time. I think OL
> is far more athletic anyhow. If the arm doesn't come back and the OL's
> don't go up, then I may be resigned to being a genetic dump truck.
>
> :^)

Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to get
back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first started
back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up with
pain in the shoulder. It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this winter,
we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If not, I
guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
ps

Lyle McDonald
October 13th 04, 04:38 PM
Pat Styles wrote:

> Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to get
> back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first started
> back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up with
> pain in the shoulder.

Where's the pain?

It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this winter,
> we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If not, I
> guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.

Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm alone?

Or are you just turning into a total pussy?

Lyle

Lee Michaels
October 13th 04, 05:16 PM
"Lyle McDonald" wrote

> Pat Styles wrote:
>
> > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
get
> > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
started
> > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
with
> > pain in the shoulder.
>
> Where's the pain?
>
> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
winter,
> > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
not, I
> > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
>
> Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
alone?
>
> Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
>
Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.

It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.

I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break up
the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.

Lyle McDonald
October 13th 04, 05:22 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
>
>>Pat Styles wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
>
> get
>
>>>back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
>
> started
>
>>>back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
>
> with
>
>>>pain in the shoulder.
>>
>>Where's the pain?
>>
>> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
>>
>>>hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
>
> winter,
>
>>>we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
>
> not, I
>
>>>guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
>>
>>Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
>>enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
>
> alone?
>
>>Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
>>
>
> Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.

I imagine it's very confusing to his little brain.

Military side of brain says "I want to go out, get drunk, objectify
women, start bar fights."

Other side says "But you know, doing those quarterly reports is really
attractive to me right now."


> I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break up
> the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.

I can speak from experience that hte latter will only make rotator cuff
problems worse.

Lyle

Keith Hobman
October 13th 04, 07:57 PM
In article <[email protected]_s53>, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
> > Pat Styles wrote:
> >
> > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
> get
> > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
> started
> > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
> with
> > > pain in the shoulder.
> >
> > Where's the pain?
> >
> > It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
> winter,
> > > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
> not, I
> > > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
> >
> > Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> > enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
> alone?
> >
> > Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> >
> Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.
>
> It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
> fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.
>
> I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break up
> the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.

You're saying Lyle has a 105 mph fastball?

Lee Michaels
October 13th 04, 08:01 PM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]_s53>, "Lee Michaels"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Lyle McDonald" wrote
> >
> > > Pat Styles wrote:
> > >
> > > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me
to
> > get
> > > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I
first
> > started
> > > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I
end up
> > with
> > > > pain in the shoulder.
> > >
> > > Where's the pain?
> > >
> > > It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > > > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot
this
> > winter,
> > > > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up.
If
> > not, I
> > > > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
> > >
> > > Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> > > enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
> > alone?
> > >
> > > Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> > >
> > Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.
> >
> > It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
> > fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.
> >
> > I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break
up
> > the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.
>
> You're saying Lyle has a 105 mph fastball?

Don't know if we have any figures for Lyle's fastball.

Might be able to produce some numbers for his poo fling though.

Lyle McDonald
October 13th 04, 08:12 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article <Oxcbd.384720$Fg5.15[email protected]_s53>, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Lyle McDonald" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>Pat Styles wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me
>
> to
>
>>>get
>>>
>>>>>back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I
>
> first
>
>>>started
>>>
>>>>>back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I
>
> end up
>
>>>with
>>>
>>>>>pain in the shoulder.
>>>>
>>>>Where's the pain?
>>>>
>>>> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
>>>>
>>>>>hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot
>
> this
>
>>>winter,
>>>
>>>>>we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up.
>
> If
>
>>>not, I
>>>
>>>>>guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
>>>>
>>>>Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
>>>>enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
>>>
>>>alone?
>>>
>>>>Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.
>>>
>>>It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
>>>fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.
>>>
>>>I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break
>
> up
>
>>>the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.
>>
>>You're saying Lyle has a 105 mph fastball?
>
>
> Don't know if we have any figures for Lyle's fastball.
>
> Might be able to produce some numbers for his poo fling though.

My poo fling is in top 1%.

Lyle

elzinator
October 14th 04, 02:03 AM
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:16:46 GMT, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>"Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
>> Pat Styles wrote:
>>
>> > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
>get
>> > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
>started
>> > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
>with
>> > pain in the shoulder.
>>
>> Where's the pain?
>>
>> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
>> > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
>winter,
>> > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
>not, I
>> > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
>>
>> Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
>> enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
>alone?
>>
>> Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
>>
>Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.

don't know about that. My sister is an accountant and she is a very
large tiger that bites and growls.

>It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
>fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.
>
>I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break up
>the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.

I don't know if his wife would approve of that, Lee.



---------------------------------
Teddy Roosevelt for President!!

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 02:10 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Pat Styles wrote:
>
> > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to get
> > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
started
> > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
with
> > pain in the shoulder.
>
> Where's the pain?

Hm, this is tough to describe since the shoulder is rather complicated. If I
have my arm in a throwing position (upper arm roughly parallel to the ground,
forearm roughly 90 degrees to upper arm, upper arm externally rotated [right?],
and scapula retracted), it is medial and posterior delt; however, it feels deep
to the delt, not the delt itself.

> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
winter,
> > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If not, I
> > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
>
> Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm alone?

Oh, sure, I'm sure my mechanics are pretty awful, but not in terms of lower body
involvement.

> Or are you just turning into a total pussy?

Just turning into one? My, you are feeling generous today. ;-)
ps

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 02:11 AM
"Lee Michaels" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s53...
>
> "Lyle McDonald" wrote
>
> > Pat Styles wrote:
> >
> > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
> get
> > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
> started
> > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
> with
> > > pain in the shoulder.
> >
> > Where's the pain?
> >
> > It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
> winter,
> > > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
> not, I
> > > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
> >
> > Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> > enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
> alone?
> >
> > Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> >
> Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.

I got a paper cut the other day and had to take the afternoon off.

> It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
> fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.

Carpal tunnel, BAYBEE!
ps

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 02:13 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Lee Michaels wrote:
> > "Lyle McDonald" wrote
> >
> >
> >>Pat Styles wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
> >
> > get
> >
> >>>back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
> >
> > started
> >
> >>>back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
> >
> > with
> >
> >>>pain in the shoulder.
> >>
> >>Where's the pain?
> >>
> >> It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> >>
> >>>hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
> >
> > winter,
> >
> >>>we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
> >
> > not, I
> >
> >>>guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
> >>
> >>Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> >>enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
> >
> > alone?
> >
> >>Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> >>
> >
> > Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.
>
> I imagine it's very confusing to his little brain.

Sheeit, everything is confusing to my little brain.

> Military side of brain says "I want to go out, get drunk, objectify
> women, start bar fights."

And the wife says, "Hell no."

> Other side says "But you know, doing those quarterly reports is really
> attractive to me right now."

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, quarterly reports.
ps

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 02:13 AM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]_s53>, "Lee Michaels"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Lyle McDonald" wrote
> >
> > > Pat Styles wrote:
> > >
> > > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me to
> > get
> > > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I first
> > started
> > > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end up
> > with
> > > > pain in the shoulder.
> > >
> > > Where's the pain?
> > >
> > > It's not debilitating, but it prevents me from throwing
> > > > hard, really snapping one off. I'm going to give it another shot this
> > winter,
> > > > we just finished our summer season, and see if I can build it up. If
> > not, I
> > > > guess I'll go see the doc and try to find out what's wrong with it.
> > >
> > > Is it possible that overall throwing mechanics are off, not getting
> > > enough force/rotation from lower body and trying to wing it with arm
> > alone?
> > >
> > > Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> > >
> > Well, Pat IS an accountant. They are universally known as pussys.
> >
> > It must be all that calculator action. Just tires out the arm. It never
> > fully recovers from the constant finger pounding.
> >
> > I would prescribe a few bar fights and excessive masturbation to break up
> > the monotony. That should help the old throwing mechanics.
>
> You're saying Lyle has a 105 mph fastball?

golf clap
ps

Lyle McDonald
October 14th 04, 03:13 AM
Pat Styles wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...

>>>pain in the shoulder.
>>
>>Where's the pain?
>
>
> Hm, this is tough to describe since the shoulder is rather complicated. If I
> have my arm in a throwing position (upper arm roughly parallel to the ground,
> forearm roughly 90 degrees to upper arm, upper arm externally rotated [right?],
> and scapula retracted), it is medial and posterior delt; however, it feels deep
> to the delt, not the delt itself.

Sounds like an external rotator problem.
You probably strained it throwing too hard too soon and that's why it's
aggravating you. My guess anyhow. But external rotator is key muscle
grup in eccentric decceleration at end of throw, takes a lot of stress.
If unprepared, you get a strain.

high rep external rotator work until it's healed and then you might want
to do eccentric emphasis RC work to train that specific function.


>>Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
>
>
> Just turning into one? My, you are feeling generous today. ;-)

Life is going well, in a good mood.
Anyhow, enough morons on my forum to pimp slap, can leave you alone.

Lyle

Now the end is near
October 14th 04, 04:03 AM
"Pat Styles" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Pat Styles wrote:
> >
> > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me
to get
> > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I
first
> started
> > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end
up
> with
> > > pain in the shoulder.
> >
> > Where's the pain?
>
> Hm, this is tough to describe since the shoulder is rather complicated.
If I
> have my arm in a throwing position (upper arm roughly parallel to the
ground,
> forearm roughly 90 degrees to upper arm, upper arm externally rotated
[right?],
> and scapula retracted), it is medial and posterior delt; however, it feels
deep
> to the delt, not the delt itself.

I had a similar sounding problem from a mighty left hook that missed it's
target, the muscle that are used to decelerate the hook where no where near
as developed as those I had to throw the hook, so they got hurt.

It also used to hurt a lot in the starting position for a wide grip
pulldown.

I used the exercise below to strengthen the muscles that hold the shoulder
joint together.

try :

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html#anchor110483

bottom exercise - Lateral Rotation (External Rotation)

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 03:07 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Pat Styles wrote:
>
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >>>pain in the shoulder.
> >>
> >>Where's the pain?
> >
> >
> > Hm, this is tough to describe since the shoulder is rather complicated. If
I
> > have my arm in a throwing position (upper arm roughly parallel to the
ground,
> > forearm roughly 90 degrees to upper arm, upper arm externally rotated
[right?],
> > and scapula retracted), it is medial and posterior delt; however, it feels
deep
> > to the delt, not the delt itself.
>
> Sounds like an external rotator problem.
> You probably strained it throwing too hard too soon and that's why it's
> aggravating you. My guess anyhow. But external rotator is key muscle
> grup in eccentric decceleration at end of throw, takes a lot of stress.
> If unprepared, you get a strain.

Yeah, that's more or less what I thought. The part about too hard, too soon,
that is. Hadn't gotten to the part about what muscle/s it might be.

> high rep external rotator work until it's healed and then you might want
> to do eccentric emphasis RC work to train that specific function.

I'll try that this winter. What do you mean by eccentric emphasis work? Heavy
negatives? Slow negatives? Or am I totally missing the point?

> >>Or are you just turning into a total pussy?
> >
> >
> > Just turning into one? My, you are feeling generous today. ;-)
>
> Life is going well, in a good mood.

Cool. Hope it keeps up through the winter. Remember, if you need some sun,
Vegas is just down the road. You and Cohen could go out to the desert with some
guns and put towels on your head and have a good old time.

> Anyhow, enough morons on my forum to pimp slap, can leave you alone.

You know how to make me jealous. Bitch!
ps

Pat Styles
October 14th 04, 03:10 PM
"Now the end is near" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Pat Styles" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Pat Styles wrote:
> > >
> > > > Heh. Good luck with the arm. That's been the toughest thing for me
> to get
> > > > back. I think I might have injured it by throwing too hard when I
> first
> > started
> > > > back. Now that I've actually tried to work it back into shape, I end
> up
> > with
> > > > pain in the shoulder.
> > >
> > > Where's the pain?
> >
> > Hm, this is tough to describe since the shoulder is rather complicated.
> If I
> > have my arm in a throwing position (upper arm roughly parallel to the
> ground,
> > forearm roughly 90 degrees to upper arm, upper arm externally rotated
> [right?],
> > and scapula retracted), it is medial and posterior delt; however, it feels
> deep
> > to the delt, not the delt itself.
>
> I had a similar sounding problem from a mighty left hook that missed it's
> target, the muscle that are used to decelerate the hook where no where near
> as developed as those I had to throw the hook, so they got hurt.

Yep, deceleration is a bitch.

> It also used to hurt a lot in the starting position for a wide grip
> pulldown.
>
> I used the exercise below to strengthen the muscles that hold the shoulder
> joint together.
>
> try :
>
> http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html#anchor110483
>
> bottom exercise - Lateral Rotation (External Rotation)

Cheers.
ps

Lyle McDonald
October 14th 04, 04:36 PM
Pat Styles wrote:

> "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Pat Styles wrote:

>>Sounds like an external rotator problem.
>>You probably strained it throwing too hard too soon and that's why it's
>>aggravating you. My guess anyhow. But external rotator is key muscle
>>grup in eccentric decceleration at end of throw, takes a lot of stress.
>> If unprepared, you get a strain.
>
>
> Yeah, that's more or less what I thought. The part about too hard, too soon,
> that is. Hadn't gotten to the part about what muscle/s it might be.

Based on the description, sort of all it can be.
Posterior part of teh shoulder but deep is external rotators. Also,
cmmon problem with throwing in the first place.

>
>
>>high rep external rotator work until it's healed and then you might want
>>to do eccentric emphasis RC work to train that specific function.
>
>
> I'll try that this winter. What do you mean by eccentric emphasis work? Heavy
> negatives? Slow negatives? Or am I totally missing the point?

No, on the right track. Start with eccentric emphasis, slow negatives
after concentric. Maybe 3-4 seconds. Improve eccentric strength and
connective tissue around the joint. May have to use other arm to help
get the weight back.

Ideally, fast eccentrics (to mimick acceleration) are probably the most
specific but I'm not sure they are that safe without ripping shoulder out.

I think doing a good bit of prehab in the off/preparatory season and
then easing into throwing gradually (give muscles time to develop
eccentric decceleration capability) is probably best. So 2-3 weeks of
high rep work, then 2-3 weeks of fairly standard strength work, few
weeks of eccentric emphasis work. When you start throwing, start with a
reasonable number of submaximal throws, bring up volume and effort
gradually.

Lyle

Pat Styles
October 15th 04, 01:20 AM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Pat Styles wrote:
>
> > "Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Pat Styles wrote:
>
> >>Sounds like an external rotator problem.
> >>You probably strained it throwing too hard too soon and that's why it's
> >>aggravating you. My guess anyhow. But external rotator is key muscle
> >>grup in eccentric decceleration at end of throw, takes a lot of stress.
> >> If unprepared, you get a strain.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, that's more or less what I thought. The part about too hard, too
soon,
> > that is. Hadn't gotten to the part about what muscle/s it might be.
>
> Based on the description, sort of all it can be.
> Posterior part of teh shoulder but deep is external rotators. Also,
> cmmon problem with throwing in the first place.

Check.

> >>high rep external rotator work until it's healed and then you might want
> >>to do eccentric emphasis RC work to train that specific function.
> >
> >
> > I'll try that this winter. What do you mean by eccentric emphasis work?
Heavy
> > negatives? Slow negatives? Or am I totally missing the point?
>
> No, on the right track. Start with eccentric emphasis, slow negatives
> after concentric. Maybe 3-4 seconds. Improve eccentric strength and
> connective tissue around the joint. May have to use other arm to help
> get the weight back.
>
> Ideally, fast eccentrics (to mimick acceleration) are probably the most
> specific but I'm not sure they are that safe without ripping shoulder out.
>
> I think doing a good bit of prehab in the off/preparatory season and
> then easing into throwing gradually (give muscles time to develop
> eccentric decceleration capability) is probably best. So 2-3 weeks of
> high rep work, then 2-3 weeks of fairly standard strength work, few
> weeks of eccentric emphasis work. When you start throwing, start with a
> reasonable number of submaximal throws, bring up volume and effort
> gradually.
>
> Lyle

Cool, thanks. I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes.
ps