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John Hanson
November 13th 04, 06:04 PM
My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
competition to the market.

Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.

John M. Williams
November 13th 04, 07:07 PM
John Hanson > wrote:

>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>competition to the market.
>
>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.

Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
than the ones in Minnesota.

John Hanson
November 13th 04, 07:17 PM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:05 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson > wrote:
>
>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>competition to the market.
>>
>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>
>Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
>than the ones in Minnesota.

The supply of boats is higher here which brings the prices down:-)

elzinator
November 13th 04, 07:40 PM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:17:18 -0600, John Hanson wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:05 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>
>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>competition to the market.
>>>
>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>
>>Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
>>than the ones in Minnesota.
>
>The supply of boats is higher here which brings the prices down:-)

Mass. (as well as a few other select states) have the highest
malpractice insurance rates in the country. This trickles down to the
insurance rates we pay. However, malpractice insurance is not the only
cause of overall high insurance rates.

While I was in Manhattan a few months ago, I was invited to attend an
interesting 'round-table' discussion between 4 doctors, an insurance
rep and a medical malpractice lawyer. The discussion was heated at
times, but the lawyer was quite frank in relating the several reasons
for high insurance rates and the complexity involved. He admitted that
some lawyers do contribute to the escalating problems, but also
related several instances where doctors do indeed **** up, costing
lives or lifetime earnings of a patient. He reminded the doctors that
there is a reason for medical malpractice lawyers.

The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.

He also educated the doctors on the legal process that occurs when a
suit is contemplated. Many are rejected by a medical peer review panel
of 'experts' before they make it to court, and many reach settlements
outside the court. The doctors, being ignorant of the process, felt
rather sheepish about that.

But the bottom line is there are always individuals that try to take
advantage of the system, at every point along the way. That's why
there are checks and balances instituted in the process, but it
appears that they need to be re-evaluated.

HMOs were dragged through the mud not just by the doctors but also the
lawyer and insurance rep. The general consensus was that they are a
'big mistake' in our managed care system.

It was quite an interesting session.


---------------
My give-a-**** meter is broken.

Steve Freides
November 13th 04, 08:23 PM
"elzinator" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:17:18 -0600, John Hanson wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:05 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>>
>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary
>>>>doctor/clinic
>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are.
>>>>I
>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>
>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>
>>>Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
>>>than the ones in Minnesota.
>>
>>The supply of boats is higher here which brings the prices down:-)
>
> Mass. (as well as a few other select states) have the highest
> malpractice insurance rates in the country. This trickles down to the
> insurance rates we pay. However, malpractice insurance is not the only
> cause of overall high insurance rates.
>
> While I was in Manhattan a few months ago, I was invited to attend an
> interesting 'round-table' discussion between 4 doctors, an insurance
> rep and a medical malpractice lawyer. The discussion was heated at
> times, but the lawyer was quite frank in relating the several reasons
> for high insurance rates and the complexity involved. He admitted that
> some lawyers do contribute to the escalating problems, but also
> related several instances where doctors do indeed **** up, costing
> lives or lifetime earnings of a patient. He reminded the doctors that
> there is a reason for medical malpractice lawyers.
>
> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.
>
> He also educated the doctors on the legal process that occurs when a
> suit is contemplated. Many are rejected by a medical peer review panel
> of 'experts' before they make it to court, and many reach settlements
> outside the court. The doctors, being ignorant of the process, felt
> rather sheepish about that.
>
> But the bottom line is there are always individuals that try to take
> advantage of the system, at every point along the way. That's why
> there are checks and balances instituted in the process, but it
> appears that they need to be re-evaluated.
>
> HMOs were dragged through the mud not just by the doctors but also the
> lawyer and insurance rep. The general consensus was that they are a
> 'big mistake' in our managed care system.
>
> It was quite an interesting session.

The most sensible advice I've yet heard on this subject was also the
simplest - eliminate punitive damages in civil court, period, it being
the job of the criminal, and not the civil, system to administer
punishment. Works for me.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

John M. Williams
November 13th 04, 09:05 PM
"Steve Freides" > wrote:
>
>The most sensible advice I've yet heard on this subject was also the
>simplest - eliminate punitive damages in civil court, period, it being
>the job of the criminal, and not the civil, system to administer
>punishment. Works for me.

I agree. Even prohibiting attorneys from collecting a contingency fee
on punitive damages would reduce the filing of such actions. Keep in
mind that the factor which drives these actions is the fact that
attorneys traditionally receive a 1/3 contingency fee. If the
plaintiff's compensatory damages are legitimate but not extensive
enough to provide a significant cut for the attorney, he/she will be
lucky to find any attorney who will take the case.

Personal injury attorneys are much less interested in justice than
they are in maximizing damages to enhance contingency fees.

Proton Soup
November 13th 04, 09:07 PM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:23:53 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

>"elzinator" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:17:18 -0600, John Hanson wrote:
>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:05 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
>>>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary
>>>>>doctor/clinic
>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are.
>>>>>I
>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>
>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
>>>>than the ones in Minnesota.
>>>
>>>The supply of boats is higher here which brings the prices down:-)
>>
>> Mass. (as well as a few other select states) have the highest
>> malpractice insurance rates in the country. This trickles down to the
>> insurance rates we pay. However, malpractice insurance is not the only
>> cause of overall high insurance rates.
>>
>> While I was in Manhattan a few months ago, I was invited to attend an
>> interesting 'round-table' discussion between 4 doctors, an insurance
>> rep and a medical malpractice lawyer. The discussion was heated at
>> times, but the lawyer was quite frank in relating the several reasons
>> for high insurance rates and the complexity involved. He admitted that
>> some lawyers do contribute to the escalating problems, but also
>> related several instances where doctors do indeed **** up, costing
>> lives or lifetime earnings of a patient. He reminded the doctors that
>> there is a reason for medical malpractice lawyers.
>>
>> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
>> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
>> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
>> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.
>>
>> He also educated the doctors on the legal process that occurs when a
>> suit is contemplated. Many are rejected by a medical peer review panel
>> of 'experts' before they make it to court, and many reach settlements
>> outside the court. The doctors, being ignorant of the process, felt
>> rather sheepish about that.
>>
>> But the bottom line is there are always individuals that try to take
>> advantage of the system, at every point along the way. That's why
>> there are checks and balances instituted in the process, but it
>> appears that they need to be re-evaluated.
>>
>> HMOs were dragged through the mud not just by the doctors but also the
>> lawyer and insurance rep. The general consensus was that they are a
>> 'big mistake' in our managed care system.
>>
>> It was quite an interesting session.
>
>The most sensible advice I've yet heard on this subject was also the
>simplest - eliminate punitive damages in civil court, period, it being
>the job of the criminal, and not the civil, system to administer
>punishment. Works for me.

Sounds great in theory Stevo, but my general impression is that the
system is not doing a very good job of policing itself.

Elzi, did the subject of removing bad doctors from practice come up at
that meeting? Legal settlements often are secretive.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

elzinator
November 13th 04, 10:59 PM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:07:27 -0600, Proton Soup wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:23:53 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:
>
>>"elzinator" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:17:18 -0600, John Hanson wrote:
>>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:05 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
>>>>>John Hanson > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary
>>>>>>doctor/clinic
>>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are.
>>>>>>I
>>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hmmm ... maybe the doctors in Massachusetts have more expensive boats
>>>>>than the ones in Minnesota.
>>>>
>>>>The supply of boats is higher here which brings the prices down:-)
>>>
>>> Mass. (as well as a few other select states) have the highest
>>> malpractice insurance rates in the country. This trickles down to the
>>> insurance rates we pay. However, malpractice insurance is not the only
>>> cause of overall high insurance rates.
>>>
>>> While I was in Manhattan a few months ago, I was invited to attend an
>>> interesting 'round-table' discussion between 4 doctors, an insurance
>>> rep and a medical malpractice lawyer. The discussion was heated at
>>> times, but the lawyer was quite frank in relating the several reasons
>>> for high insurance rates and the complexity involved. He admitted that
>>> some lawyers do contribute to the escalating problems, but also
>>> related several instances where doctors do indeed **** up, costing
>>> lives or lifetime earnings of a patient. He reminded the doctors that
>>> there is a reason for medical malpractice lawyers.
>>>
>>> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
>>> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
>>> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
>>> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.
>>>
>>> He also educated the doctors on the legal process that occurs when a
>>> suit is contemplated. Many are rejected by a medical peer review panel
>>> of 'experts' before they make it to court, and many reach settlements
>>> outside the court. The doctors, being ignorant of the process, felt
>>> rather sheepish about that.
>>>
>>> But the bottom line is there are always individuals that try to take
>>> advantage of the system, at every point along the way. That's why
>>> there are checks and balances instituted in the process, but it
>>> appears that they need to be re-evaluated.
>>>
>>> HMOs were dragged through the mud not just by the doctors but also the
>>> lawyer and insurance rep. The general consensus was that they are a
>>> 'big mistake' in our managed care system.
>>>
>>> It was quite an interesting session.
>>
>>The most sensible advice I've yet heard on this subject was also the
>>simplest - eliminate punitive damages in civil court, period, it being
>>the job of the criminal, and not the civil, system to administer
>>punishment. Works for me.
>
>Sounds great in theory Stevo, but my general impression is that the
>system is not doing a very good job of policing itself.
>
>Elzi, did the subject of removing bad doctors from practice come up at
>that meeting? Legal settlements often are secretive.

Funny you should ask that, as that was just what the lawyer suggested.
That is apparently one of the faults of the system: undisclosed
settlements. Both the doctors and the lawyer agreed upon this issue.

---------------
My give-a-**** meter is broken.

Brandon Berg
November 14th 04, 12:53 AM
"elzinator" > wrote in message
...
> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.

I've heard this before, but I took a look at the financial reports for a few
medical insurance companies (Aetna's the only one I remember off the top of
my head), and it didn't check out. All of them took in more revenue from
premiums than from investments, by an order of magnitude or more. They only
went back for a couple of years, but 2003 was a great year for stocks, so I
wouldn't expect that it would have been much higher in prior years unless
there was a major change in their investment strategy. Do you have any more
information on this?

--
Brandon Berg
Fix the obvious homonym substitution to reply.

Bob Mann
November 14th 04, 05:52 PM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:

>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>competition to the market.
>
>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.


Move to Canada. ;-)
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

John Hanson
November 14th 04, 06:55 PM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>competition to the market.
>>
>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>
>
>Move to Canada. ;-)

Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.

Bob Mann
November 14th 04, 10:48 PM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>competition to the market.
>>>
>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>
>>
>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>
>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.

We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

John Hanson
November 14th 04, 11:02 PM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>
>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>
>>>
>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>>
>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>
>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.

Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.

Bob Mann
November 14th 04, 11:36 PM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>
>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>>>
>>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>>
>>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
>
>Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.

I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
Being satisfied is what it is all about.

Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
sooner than I can to my own GP.

Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

John Hanson
November 15th 04, 12:03 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>>>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>>>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>>>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>>>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>>>
>>>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>>>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>>>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>>>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
>>
>>Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.
>
> I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
>Being satisfied is what it is all about.

I can go wherever I want too. There are literally thousands of
providers and specialist I can go to.
http://patientchoicesignature.com/providers_frame.html

>
>Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
>sooner than I can to my own GP.

I can see my GP the same day or at the latest, next day.

>
>Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.

Good luck!

Bob Mann
November 15th 04, 12:04 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:03:37 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>>>>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>>>>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>>>>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>>>>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>>>>
>>>>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>>>>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>>>>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>>>>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
>>>
>>>Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.
>>
>> I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
>>Being satisfied is what it is all about.
>
>I can go wherever I want too. There are literally thousands of
>providers and specialist I can go to.
>http://patientchoicesignature.com/providers_frame.html

That's good. Many can't and are restricted to members of the HMO or
maybe you are too but have enough to choose from.
Possibly a result of being in a higher category.
>
>>
>>Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
>>sooner than I can to my own GP.
>
>I can see my GP the same day or at the latest, next day.

That is starting to **** me off.
I have to get a pre-surgery examination and my appointment was for 2
weeks.
Many doctors have stopped taking new patients because they have all
they can handle. Used to be you had a day or two for an appointment
but it has become quite serious over the past cuple of years.
Not just here but right across the country.
>
>>
>>Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.
>
>Good luck!

Thanks.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

John Hanson
November 15th 04, 12:32 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:04:30 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:03:37 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>>>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>>>>>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>>>>>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>>>>>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>>>>>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>>>>>>>>competition to the market.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>>>>>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>>>>>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>>>>>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>>>>>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>>>>>
>>>>>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>>>>>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>>>>>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>>>>>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
>>>>
>>>>Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.
>>>
>>> I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
>>>Being satisfied is what it is all about.
>>
>>I can go wherever I want too. There are literally thousands of
>>providers and specialist I can go to.
>>http://patientchoicesignature.com/providers_frame.html
>
>That's good. Many can't and are restricted to members of the HMO or
>maybe you are too but have enough to choose from.
>Possibly a result of being in a higher category.

Nope. My clinic is an HMO but it is not part of my insurance company.
It used to be my HMO years ago though. Go to the link above and put
in a zip code like 55101 and do a search for a particular specialty.
Because of the plan I chose, I can go to any of them whereas someone
who picked a level two could only go to a level 1 or 2...I think.

>>
>>>
>>>Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
>>>sooner than I can to my own GP.
>>
>>I can see my GP the same day or at the latest, next day.
>
>That is starting to **** me off.
>I have to get a pre-surgery examination and my appointment was for 2
>weeks.
>Many doctors have stopped taking new patients because they have all
>they can handle. Used to be you had a day or two for an appointment
>but it has become quite serious over the past cuple of years.
>Not just here but right across the country.
>>
>>>
>>>Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.
>>
>>Good luck!
>
>Thanks.

You're welcome.

Bob Mann
November 15th 04, 12:35 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:32:52 -0600, John Hanson
> wrote:

>Nope. My clinic is an HMO but it is not part of my insurance company.
>It used to be my HMO years ago though. Go to the link above and put
>in a zip code like 55101 and do a search for a particular specialty.
>Because of the plan I chose, I can go to any of them whereas someone
>who picked a level two could only go to a level 1 or 2...I think.

What you have is the best situation. Of course you have to pay extra
for it.
What we have is the flexibility of what you have without the decisions
of where to go or how much to pay (kind of like the gambling analogy)
and with nobody being uninsured but with longer waiting periods.
Good in some ways, sucks in others.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

Jim Ranieri
November 15th 04, 01:44 AM
"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
> > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
> >wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> >>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
> >>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>>
> >>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
> >>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
> >>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
> >>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
> >>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
> >>>>>competition to the market.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
> >>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
> >>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
> >>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
> >>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
> >>>
> >>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
> >>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
> >>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
> >>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
> >>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
> >>
> >>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
> >>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
> >>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
> >>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
> >
> >Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.
>
> I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
> Being satisfied is what it is all about.
>
> Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
> sooner than I can to my own GP.
>
> Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.
> --


Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a public
service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how much do
you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you followed?

elzinator
November 15th 04, 03:36 AM
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:53:33 -0800, Brandon Berg wrote:
>"elzinator" > wrote in message
...
>> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
>> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
>> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
>> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.
>
>I've heard this before, but I took a look at the financial reports for a few
>medical insurance companies (Aetna's the only one I remember off the top of
>my head), and it didn't check out. All of them took in more revenue from
>premiums than from investments, by an order of magnitude or more. They only
>went back for a couple of years, but 2003 was a great year for stocks, so I
>wouldn't expect that it would have been much higher in prior years unless
>there was a major change in their investment strategy. Do you have any more
>information on this?

No, not my specialty.

---------------
My give-a-**** meter is broken.

Bob Mann
November 15th 04, 05:10 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:44:37 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> wrote:

>
>"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:02:49 -0600, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:48:48 -0600, Bob Mann >
>> >wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:55:29 -0600, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:52:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>> >>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:54 -0600, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>My medical insurance has just instituted a tier system that puts
>> >>>>>doctors and clinics into 3 tiers. So when you sign up for the next
>> >>>>>year (like I did yesterday), you pick out your primary doctor/clinic
>> >>>>>and, based on the tier they are in, is how much your premiums are. I
>> >>>>>like this idea as it might lower medical costs by bringing more
>> >>>>>competition to the market.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>> >>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>> >>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>> >>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>> >>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Move to Canada. ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>>Not. Those premiums get paid before taxes. Plus, I can get same day
>> >>>service for even the littlest problems. Even a hangnail if I so
>> >>>choose. Plus, it's not like $2600 is a lot of money. Certainly not
>> >>>like the $12,000 Wendy pays per year. No, you can have your
>> >>>socialized medicine and your shortage of doctors and care.
>> >>
>> >>We only have a shortage because the places that overcharge for
>> >>insurance are luring them away with promises of big bucks.
>> >>Actually the premiums are paid out of taxes which kind of puts them in
>> >>a grey area not that it matters, you pay what you pay.
>> >
>> >Exactly and I'm quite happy with my coverage.
>>
>> I prefer being able to go where ever I want but that's okay.
>> Being satisfied is what it is all about.
>>
>> Interesting side note. I can get into a sports specialist much, much
>> sooner than I can to my own GP.
>>
>> Another side note. I get my knee surgery on Dec 8th.
>> --
>
>
>Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a public
>service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how much do
>you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you followed?
>
>
The shoulder I sttribute to many years of lifting too much or
incorrectly.
The knee problems began with soccer and a surgeon wanted to part of
this surgery 20 tears ago before I ever really started lifting heavy.
(squats anyway) I did put a little tear in the meniscus training for
Masters Worlds last year though.

My original shoulder injury happened when I was attempting 300 for the
first time.
I wasn't sure about my spotter so I had two. One on each side.
The guy on my left side couldn't take the weight and it dropped on my
left side forcing my arm back too far.
Since then I have had semi regular bouts of tendonitis in both
shoulders but always worse in my left one. The operation was to
alleviate somewhat frayed tendons in the rotator cuff and to try to
alleviate some of the arthritic changes that ocurred in the shoulder
itself.
I think I might have been more prone to this type of injury than most
but I would limit the amount of heavy full range lifting and the
number of sets and reps.
I found that using boards was sufficient for the heavy work and just
did lighter work for full range when I was training hurt before the
surgery. (It was about a year ago)
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

Pete
November 15th 04, 05:23 AM
John Hanson wrote:

> Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
> cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
> quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
> figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
> to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.

That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

John Hanson
November 15th 04, 05:32 AM
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:23:23 -0800, "Pete" >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson wrote:
>
>> Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>> cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>> quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>> figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>> to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>
>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.
>
That's my share.

Jim Ranieri
November 15th 04, 01:09 PM
"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:44:37 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> > wrote:
>


> >Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a public
> >service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how much
do
> >you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you
followed?
> >
> >
> The shoulder I sttribute to many years of lifting too much or
> incorrectly.
> The knee problems began with soccer and a surgeon wanted to part of
> this surgery 20 tears ago before I ever really started lifting heavy.
> (squats anyway) I did put a little tear in the meniscus training for
> Masters Worlds last year though.
>
> My original shoulder injury happened when I was attempting 300 for the
> first time.
> I wasn't sure about my spotter so I had two. One on each side.
> The guy on my left side couldn't take the weight and it dropped on my
> left side forcing my arm back too far.
> Since then I have had semi regular bouts of tendonitis in both
> shoulders but always worse in my left one. The operation was to
> alleviate somewhat frayed tendons in the rotator cuff and to try to
> alleviate some of the arthritic changes that ocurred in the shoulder
> itself.
> I think I might have been more prone to this type of injury than most
> but I would limit the amount of heavy full range lifting and the
> number of sets and reps.
> I found that using boards was sufficient for the heavy work and just
> did lighter work for full range when I was training hurt before the
> surgery. (It was about a year ago)


Did you ever do any specific rotator exercises prior to your injury?

Bob Mann
November 15th 04, 01:21 PM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:09:02 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> wrote:

>
>"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:44:37 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
>> > wrote:
>>
>
>
>> >Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a public
>> >service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how much
>do
>> >you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you
>followed?
>> >
>> >
>> The shoulder I sttribute to many years of lifting too much or
>> incorrectly.
>> The knee problems began with soccer and a surgeon wanted to part of
>> this surgery 20 tears ago before I ever really started lifting heavy.
>> (squats anyway) I did put a little tear in the meniscus training for
>> Masters Worlds last year though.
>>
>> My original shoulder injury happened when I was attempting 300 for the
>> first time.
>> I wasn't sure about my spotter so I had two. One on each side.
>> The guy on my left side couldn't take the weight and it dropped on my
>> left side forcing my arm back too far.
>> Since then I have had semi regular bouts of tendonitis in both
>> shoulders but always worse in my left one. The operation was to
>> alleviate somewhat frayed tendons in the rotator cuff and to try to
>> alleviate some of the arthritic changes that ocurred in the shoulder
>> itself.
>> I think I might have been more prone to this type of injury than most
>> but I would limit the amount of heavy full range lifting and the
>> number of sets and reps.
>> I found that using boards was sufficient for the heavy work and just
>> did lighter work for full range when I was training hurt before the
>> surgery. (It was about a year ago)
>
>
>Did you ever do any specific rotator exercises prior to your injury?
>
>
Not many. Not nearly enough.
Maintaining a strong cuff, especially the rear of the shoulder is so
important but I didn't do much unless I had recently been hurt.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

Dally
November 15th 04, 01:46 PM
John Hanson wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:23:23 -0800, "Pete" >
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>
>>John Hanson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>
>>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
>>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.
>>
>
> That's my share.

It's all your share. If your employer weren't paying it to you as part
of your compensation package in one way, they'd be paying it to you in
another way. It's silly to think it's the employer's problem, not
yours, if health insurance sky-rockets. I assure you, the employer
figures it as part of the cost of having you as an employee.

All you've just told me is that you don't know how much you're paying in HI.

Dally

David Cohen
November 15th 04, 01:51 PM
"Dally" > wrote
> John Hanson wrote:
>> "Pete" > wrote in
>>>John Hanson wrote:
>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>
>>>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>>>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about
>>>$14,400
>>>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.

>> That's my share.
>
> It's all your share. If your employer weren't paying it to you as part of
> your compensation package in one way, they'd be paying it to you in
> another way. It's silly to think it's the employer's problem, not yours,
> if health insurance sky-rockets. I assure you, the employer figures it as
> part of the cost of having you as an employee.

Along with the cost of the internet porn subscriptions, the 1-900 calls, and
settling the sexual harrassment suits.

John's a valuable employee and well worth the cost.

David

Jim Ranieri
November 15th 04, 03:09 PM
"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:09:02 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:44:37 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >
> >
> >> >Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a
public
> >> >service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how
much
> >do
> >> >you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you
> >followed?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> The shoulder I sttribute to many years of lifting too much or
> >> incorrectly.
> >> The knee problems began with soccer and a surgeon wanted to part of
> >> this surgery 20 tears ago before I ever really started lifting heavy.
> >> (squats anyway) I did put a little tear in the meniscus training for
> >> Masters Worlds last year though.
> >>
> >> My original shoulder injury happened when I was attempting 300 for the
> >> first time.
> >> I wasn't sure about my spotter so I had two. One on each side.
> >> The guy on my left side couldn't take the weight and it dropped on my
> >> left side forcing my arm back too far.
> >> Since then I have had semi regular bouts of tendonitis in both
> >> shoulders but always worse in my left one. The operation was to
> >> alleviate somewhat frayed tendons in the rotator cuff and to try to
> >> alleviate some of the arthritic changes that ocurred in the shoulder
> >> itself.
> >> I think I might have been more prone to this type of injury than most
> >> but I would limit the amount of heavy full range lifting and the
> >> number of sets and reps.
> >> I found that using boards was sufficient for the heavy work and just
> >> did lighter work for full range when I was training hurt before the
> >> surgery. (It was about a year ago)
> >
> >
> >Did you ever do any specific rotator exercises prior to your injury?
> >
> >
> Not many. Not nearly enough.
> Maintaining a strong cuff, especially the rear of the shoulder is so
> important but I didn't do much unless I had recently been hurt.
> --


I try to work it (rotator stuff) in when I can, but it's the first thing to
go when I'm pressed for time. Thanks for the info.

John Hanson
November 15th 04, 03:50 PM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:46:20 -0500, Dally > wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:23:23 -0800, "Pete" >
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>
>>>John Hanson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>
>>>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>>>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
>>>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.
>>>
>>
>> That's my share.
>
>It's all your share. If your employer weren't paying it to you as part
>of your compensation package in one way, they'd be paying it to you in
>another way. It's silly to think it's the employer's problem, not
>yours, if health insurance sky-rockets. I assure you, the employer
>figures it as part of the cost of having you as an employee.

No ****. But, just because they are paying for a large portion of my
medical insurance, it doesn't mean they'd pay me that much if they
weren't covering it. Large corporations negotiate their medical costs
way below what an individual can purchase insurance for. Plus,
corporate bean counters think of medical insurance as a fixed cost
that changes on a yearly basis.

My boss, OTOH, determines what I make and could care less about what
the company's share of the insurance is. Granted, he would have a
larger pool of money to divvy out to his employees but he might also
like to take a chunk of that for himself in terms of a bonus for a
cost savings. The way it works in most corporate worlds is that a
unit or group leader is given so much money for salaries. He can
divvy that out anyway he wants and whatever doesn't get distributed
gets thrown against the bottom line which is what his bonus is based
on.

>
>All you've just told me is that you don't know how much you're paying in HI.
>
And your point?

Dally
November 15th 04, 04:54 PM
John Hanson wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:46:20 -0500, Dally > wrote in
> misc.fitness.weights:
>
>
>>John Hanson wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:23:23 -0800, "Pete" >
>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>John Hanson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>
>>>>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>>>>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
>>>>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's my share.
>>
>>It's all your share. If your employer weren't paying it to you as part
>>of your compensation package in one way, they'd be paying it to you in
>>another way. It's silly to think it's the employer's problem, not
>>yours, if health insurance sky-rockets. I assure you, the employer
>>figures it as part of the cost of having you as an employee.
>
>
> No ****. But, just because they are paying for a large portion of my
> medical insurance, it doesn't mean they'd pay me that much if they
> weren't covering it. Large corporations negotiate their medical costs
> way below what an individual can purchase insurance for. Plus,
> corporate bean counters think of medical insurance as a fixed cost
> that changes on a yearly basis.
>
> My boss, OTOH, determines what I make and could care less about what
> the company's share of the insurance is. Granted, he would have a
> larger pool of money to divvy out to his employees but he might also
> like to take a chunk of that for himself in terms of a bonus for a
> cost savings. The way it works in most corporate worlds is that a
> unit or group leader is given so much money for salaries. He can
> divvy that out anyway he wants and whatever doesn't get distributed
> gets thrown against the bottom line which is what his bonus is based
> on.

Even large corporations care at some level. Just not the one you're
watching.

I deal in the world of small corporations. There are many times more of
those small businesses than large ones... and I assure you that they
care a great deal about total compensation packages of their employees.
But I'll grant you that they don't employ as many people as the large
corps do.

>>All you've just told me is that you don't know how much you're paying in HI.
>>
>
> And your point?

Well, you started this thread talking about how much you were paying for
HI and specifically commented that I wouldn't like it. I don't care one
way or another except as an interesting data point since I'm following
this saga (HI in general, not yours specifically). And now I find that
the data point you've given, that a single 40 year old man pays $2600
for health insurance - is not accurate. You pay some unknown amount
more since you weren't relating the actual premium cost, just some
detail about how your compensation package is structured.

If you want to talk about it that way, I pay nothing for health
insurance. My husband gets it through his work and his share of it
(about $300/mo) is taken out before taxes.

But that's specious to argue. If I were to hire him in my company I'd
have to replace the entire employer contribution as well as other benefits.

My business is doing well - I've decided to bonus out a 10% contribution
into my employee's SEP-IRAs this year. I'm doing this specifically
because I've got one valuable employee I want to honor because I think a
lot of my success last tax season had to do with her and I want her to
come back next tax season. But I couldn't afford anything like that if
I had to offer health insurance. (I had a conversation with her about
what she needed to come back. I offered her this retirement plan. She
ASKED for better heat in her office and more responsibility.
Interestingly, she didn't ask for money, per se.)

Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator

Lee Michaels
November 15th 04, 05:09 PM
"Dally" wrote
>
> My business is doing well - I've decided to bonus out a 10% contribution
> into my employee's SEP-IRAs this year. I'm doing this specifically
> because I've got one valuable employee I want to honor because I think a
> lot of my success last tax season had to do with her and I want her to
> come back next tax season. But I couldn't afford anything like that if
> I had to offer health insurance. (I had a conversation with her about
> what she needed to come back. I offered her this retirement plan. She
> ASKED for better heat in her office and more responsibility.
> Interestingly, she didn't ask for money, per se.)
>
> Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator
>

Damn, you have an important employee and she doesn't have any HEAT???

And this in the middle of a harsh New England winter??

Maybe you can get hired as a consultant to a coal mining operation.

What next, child labor??

Slave driver. ;)

John Hanson
November 15th 04, 05:35 PM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:54:27 -0500, Dally > wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:46:20 -0500, Dally > wrote in
>> misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>
>>>John Hanson wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:23:23 -0800, "Pete" >
>>>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>John Hanson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Turns out mine is the highest. I thought about switching to a lower
>>>>>>cost one but I've been happy with the same day scheduling and the
>>>>>>quality referrals. Plus, being a competitive powerlifter, one must
>>>>>>figure on needing surgery at some point. Oh, Wendy, you'll be happy
>>>>>>to know that my premiums are now about $2600/year.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's pretty low, John. Is that the total premium or just your
>>>>>contribution. For example, the total premium for my family is about $14,400
>>>>>a year, of which I pay 10%. My employer pays the rest.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's my share.
>>>
>>>It's all your share. If your employer weren't paying it to you as part
>>>of your compensation package in one way, they'd be paying it to you in
>>>another way. It's silly to think it's the employer's problem, not
>>>yours, if health insurance sky-rockets. I assure you, the employer
>>>figures it as part of the cost of having you as an employee.
>>
>>
>> No ****. But, just because they are paying for a large portion of my
>> medical insurance, it doesn't mean they'd pay me that much if they
>> weren't covering it. Large corporations negotiate their medical costs
>> way below what an individual can purchase insurance for. Plus,
>> corporate bean counters think of medical insurance as a fixed cost
>> that changes on a yearly basis.
>>
>> My boss, OTOH, determines what I make and could care less about what
>> the company's share of the insurance is. Granted, he would have a
>> larger pool of money to divvy out to his employees but he might also
>> like to take a chunk of that for himself in terms of a bonus for a
>> cost savings. The way it works in most corporate worlds is that a
>> unit or group leader is given so much money for salaries. He can
>> divvy that out anyway he wants and whatever doesn't get distributed
>> gets thrown against the bottom line which is what his bonus is based
>> on.
>
>Even large corporations care at some level. Just not the one you're
>watching.

They do care...greatly. But after the contract is signed, it becomes
a fixed cost.

>
>I deal in the world of small corporations. There are many times more of
>those small businesses than large ones... and I assure you that they
>care a great deal about total compensation packages of their employees.
> But I'll grant you that they don't employ as many people as the large
>corps do.
>
>>>All you've just told me is that you don't know how much you're paying in HI.
>>>
>>
>> And your point?
>
>Well, you started this thread talking about how much you were paying for
>HI and specifically commented that I wouldn't like it. I don't care one
>way or another except as an interesting data point since I'm following
>this saga (HI in general, not yours specifically). And now I find that
>the data point you've given, that a single 40 year old man pays $2600
>for health insurance - is not accurate. You pay some unknown amount
>more since you weren't relating the actual premium cost, just some
>detail about how your compensation package is structured.

I specifically commented that you Would like it as I was paying more.

I do know that my cost is not the total cost of my health insurance.
I do actually have a figure that states my total compensation. It
factors in my health care, pension, company contribution to 401k, life
insurance...that sort of stuff but not broken down individually...at
least not completely. They even factor my fringe as well as vehicle
costs as well as my wages when the figure the costs for a job or
contract.

>
>If you want to talk about it that way, I pay nothing for health
>insurance. My husband gets it through his work and his share of it
>(about $300/mo) is taken out before taxes.
>
>But that's specious to argue. If I were to hire him in my company I'd
>have to replace the entire employer contribution as well as other benefits.

Yes, you're not telling me anything I don't know.

>
>My business is doing well - I've decided to bonus out a 10% contribution
>into my employee's SEP-IRAs this year. I'm doing this specifically
>because I've got one valuable employee I want to honor because I think a
>lot of my success last tax season had to do with her and I want her to
>come back next tax season. But I couldn't afford anything like that if
>I had to offer health insurance. (I had a conversation with her about
>what she needed to come back. I offered her this retirement plan. She
>ASKED for better heat in her office and more responsibility.
>Interestingly, she didn't ask for money, per se.)
>
>Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator

Get the old man to fix that.

00doc
November 15th 04, 05:54 PM
elzinator > wrote in message >...
>
> While I was in Manhattan a few months ago, I was invited to attend an
> interesting 'round-table' discussion between 4 doctors, an insurance
> rep and a medical malpractice lawyer. The discussion was heated at
> times, but the lawyer was quite frank in relating the several reasons
> for high insurance rates and the complexity involved. He admitted that
> some lawyers do contribute to the escalating problems, but also
> related several instances where doctors do indeed **** up, costing
> lives or lifetime earnings of a patient. He reminded the doctors that
> there is a reason for medical malpractice lawyers.

True - the stats on that are interesting.

On the one hand it turns out that there is no correlation with quality
of care and being sued. It all has to do with the relationship between
the doc and the patient and the outcome (whether the doc's fault or
not). On the other side is the fact that most malpractice never
results in a lawsuit. So the problem is not that there are too many
suits - it is that the wrong cases are suing.

The upshot is that the system does not work to prevent malpractice
(since the ****ty docs are not more likely to get sued). It just
creates an atmosphere of paranoia that results in extra testing etc.
AS you point out - people will always look to lay blame and game the
system.

Once you realize the above s a few solutions become obvious.
1) The standards that docs are held to should be more standardized. If
a patient walks into the docs office the doc should be able to know
what will be consider accpetable and unacceptable care and then adhere
to it.

2) The system should be streamlined. If we used more of the stuff you
mention (independant reviews etc) and relied on full trials less then
the settlements would be quicker for the patient and less costly -
which would mean that more of the settlement would go to the patient,
less to the lawyers (also reducing lawyer abuseof the system), and
they would be easier for the docs to defend against when people are
getting frivolous. Everybody would win except the lawyers - so you can
guess what the chancesof that are.


> The other issue he raised is that insurance companies overall, not
> just for the medical field, have not been faring well due to recent
> events and the changing and unpredictable markets. Many have invested
> unwisely, and their ****ups are also passed to the consumers.

Yeah - I don't know what to think about that. The docs never
complained while their malpractice insurance was being subsidized by a
booming market so it really isn't fair to complain about having to pay
the full fare now that the market is flat. However, the problem is
that there is considerable evidence that the insurers are lying about
the reasons for the rapidly increasing premiums* and just flat out
profiteering in a time of paranoia.

*1) The rates are still going up now that themarket is flat. If it had
to do with investing they should now also be flat.

*2) The rates are going up far in excess in the rise of settlements.
Also, in states where settlements were capped there has been no effect
on malpractice insurance rates.

*3) There is also testimony before state legislature committees to
this effect.




> He also educated the doctors on the legal process that occurs when a
> suit is contemplated. Many are rejected by a medical peer review panel
> of 'experts' before they make it to court,

This part of it varies by states. Some have these and some don't. In
most states that do have them (if not all) they are not legally
binding. They do promote a settlement often just by showing the losing
side that they are vulnerable.


> and many reach settlements
> outside the court.

I think everyone knows that. The problem, though, is that often the
docs settle even when right because defending the suit is too
unpredictable and expensive. As I said above - if you made the process
more predictable and streamlined everyone would win but the lawyers (a
fatal blow).



> But the bottom line is there are always individuals that try to take
> advantage of the system, at every point along the way. That's why
> there are checks and balances instituted in the process, but it
> appears that they need to be re-evaluated.

Agreed.


> HMOs were dragged through the mud not just by the doctors but also the
> lawyer and insurance rep. The general consensus was that they are a
> 'big mistake' in our managed care system.

Yeah - healthcare really is not all that amenable to that degree of
market control.


> It was quite an interesting session.

I'll bet.

--
00doc

00doc
November 15th 04, 06:03 PM
Proton Soup > wrote in message >...
>
> Sounds great in theory Stevo, but my general impression is that the
> system is not doing a very good job of policing itself.
>
> Elzi, did the subject of removing bad doctors from practice come up at
> that meeting? Legal settlements often are secretive.

The system is horrible at policing itself. That is a big part of the
problem. If the system used hearings that were quick and cheap
(relatively) the other benefit is that they would be a matter of
public record. That would make it easier to licensing boards to know
what is going on and step in and also for other docs to change
referral patterns.

--
00doc

Dally
November 15th 04, 06:06 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Dally" wrote
>
>>My business is doing well - I've decided to bonus out a 10% contribution
>>into my employee's SEP-IRAs this year. I'm doing this specifically
>>because I've got one valuable employee I want to honor because I think a
>>lot of my success last tax season had to do with her and I want her to
>>come back next tax season. But I couldn't afford anything like that if
>>I had to offer health insurance. (I had a conversation with her about
>>what she needed to come back. I offered her this retirement plan. She
>>ASKED for better heat in her office and more responsibility.
>>Interestingly, she didn't ask for money, per se.)
>>
>>Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator
>>
>
>
> Damn, you have an important employee and she doesn't have any HEAT???
>
> And this in the middle of a harsh New England winter??
>
> Maybe you can get hired as a consultant to a coal mining operation.
>
> What next, child labor??

Uh, no, that came first. Most of my employees are related to me.

> Slave driver. ;)

I pay them! They each got an iPod last year... oh, and clothes. I buy
them clothes at least once a year!

Dally

Dally
November 15th 04, 06:08 PM
John Hanson wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:54:27 -0500, Dally > wrote in
> misc.fitness.weights:

>>Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator
>
>
> Get the old man to fix that.

I did that LAST winter. Now it's time to acknowledge that I need to try
a different method.

Dally

Lee Michaels
November 15th 04, 06:11 PM
"Dally" wrote

> John Hanson wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:54:27 -0500, Dally > wrote in
> > misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >>Dally, who has to remember to call the plumber about the dead radiator
> >
> >
> > Get the old man to fix that.
>
> I did that LAST winter. Now it's time to acknowledge that I need to try
> a different method.
>

Maybe he should use pipe wrenches instead of arnis sticks.

John M. Williams
November 15th 04, 06:46 PM
(00doc) wrote:
>
> The system should be streamlined. If we used more of the stuff you
>mention (independant reviews etc) and relied on full trials less then
>the settlements would be quicker for the patient and less costly -
>which would mean that more of the settlement would go to the patient,
>less to the lawyers (also reducing lawyer abuseof the system), and
>they would be easier for the docs to defend against when people are
>getting frivolous. Everybody would win except the lawyers - so you can
>guess what the chancesof that are.

Bingo. Massive contingency fees fuel litigation. Justice and quality
medical care have very little to do with it.

>The problem, though, is that often the
>docs settle even when right because defending the suit is too
>unpredictable and expensive. As I said above - if you made the process
>more predictable and streamlined everyone would win but the lawyers (a
>fatal blow).

Settlements are the bread-and-butter business of personal injury
lawyers. Try what you must -- win a few, lose a few -- but collect
substantial contingency fees on the ones which can be settled, often
ones which are little more than "nuisance claims."

There is little question that legitimate medical malpractice and drug
liability claims exist. The problem is that the personal injury
plaintiff's bar actively solicits clients but pursues only cases where
damages may yield a significant contingency fee, regardless of how
tenuous the causation is.

Bob Mann
November 16th 04, 12:34 AM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:09:13 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
> wrote:

>
>"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:09:02 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:44:37 -0600, "Jim Ranieri"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >> >Hey Bob, I recall you had shoulder surgery a while back, too. As a
>public
>> >> >service to all of us aging guys that still like to lift heavy - how
>much
>> >do
>> >> >you attribute the bum knee and shoulder to the lifting regimen you
>> >followed?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> The shoulder I sttribute to many years of lifting too much or
>> >> incorrectly.
>> >> The knee problems began with soccer and a surgeon wanted to part of
>> >> this surgery 20 tears ago before I ever really started lifting heavy.
>> >> (squats anyway) I did put a little tear in the meniscus training for
>> >> Masters Worlds last year though.
>> >>
>> >> My original shoulder injury happened when I was attempting 300 for the
>> >> first time.
>> >> I wasn't sure about my spotter so I had two. One on each side.
>> >> The guy on my left side couldn't take the weight and it dropped on my
>> >> left side forcing my arm back too far.
>> >> Since then I have had semi regular bouts of tendonitis in both
>> >> shoulders but always worse in my left one. The operation was to
>> >> alleviate somewhat frayed tendons in the rotator cuff and to try to
>> >> alleviate some of the arthritic changes that ocurred in the shoulder
>> >> itself.
>> >> I think I might have been more prone to this type of injury than most
>> >> but I would limit the amount of heavy full range lifting and the
>> >> number of sets and reps.
>> >> I found that using boards was sufficient for the heavy work and just
>> >> did lighter work for full range when I was training hurt before the
>> >> surgery. (It was about a year ago)
>> >
>> >
>> >Did you ever do any specific rotator exercises prior to your injury?
>> >
>> >
>> Not many. Not nearly enough.
>> Maintaining a strong cuff, especially the rear of the shoulder is so
>> important but I didn't do much unless I had recently been hurt.
>> --
>
>
>I try to work it (rotator stuff) in when I can, but it's the first thing to
>go when I'm pressed for time. Thanks for the info.
>
>
Same here. In spite of all I have been through with this I still don't
do enough.

No problem.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.