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willjun
November 14th 04, 11:16 PM
Hello. Over the last few years, my job has consumed a huge portion of my life. I sit in a cubicle for 10-12 hours a day and have absolutely no time to join/go to a gym. I try to eat healthy and find myself walking laps around the office just to keep for losing my mind. About 6 months ago I started doing standard push-ups's in an empty cubicle to release some energy. I began doing them every day/six days a week. One set per day. When I started, I was able to get about 18 push-ups in one go. Now, 6 months later I'm able to do 40 push-ups in one set. I've cut down to 5 days per week now (every day Monday through Friday) and practically sleep all weekend due to my crazy work hours. I've noticed a difference in my chest, biceps, triceps, shoulders, and back. Now, I've got a real feel for pushing myself and I look forward to the moment each day when I can sneak away during my boss' daily meeting to do my push-ups. I would like to take weight training to another level with weights, etc but honestly, it'll be at least 3 years before I'll see a change in my work schedule. So, it looks like push-up's are my best/only option to build muscle, etc. Like I said above, I basically do the same type of push up's every day...5 days a week...one set. I'd like to expand this routine and build some sort of regular workout around push-ups and other things I might be able to do in a cubicle without any weights. I'm hoping someone here might be able to make some suggestions or point me to a good book or web site. I'm interested in building my upper body as much as I can.
Also, what type of results can I expect to get if I continue to add quantity to my daily push-ups. I'm guessing muscles grow differently if you're simply adding reps and not really increasing the weight you're lifting. Do I need to worry about rest periods since I'm doing these push-up's every day Monday through Friday. Any/all help will be much appreciated. Thanks!
Will

PS...In addition to push-ups I walk back and forth to work every day. 40 minute walk one way.

Per Elmsäter
November 15th 04, 09:18 AM
willjun wrote:
>
> PS...In addition to push-ups I walk back and forth to work every day.
> 40 minute walk one way.

Why don't you use part of those 80 minutes you're walking to go to a gym
instead.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

willjun
November 15th 04, 01:39 PM
Why don't you use part of those 80 minutes you're walking to go to a gym
instead.


I would if I could, but the morning walk is spent walking with my son to school, and the evening walk is spent walking home with my wife. Quality time :)

Any ideas about a workout centered around push-up's, etc at the office?

Steve Freides
November 15th 04, 06:10 PM
"willjun" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hello. Over the last few years, my job has consumed a huge portion of
> my life. I sit in a cubicle for 10-12 hours a day and have absolutely
> no time to join/go to a gym. I try to eat healthy and find myself
> walking laps around the office just to keep for losing my mind. About
> 6 months ago I started doing standard push-ups's in an empty cubicle
> to
> release some energy. I began doing them every day/six days a week.
> One
> set per day. When I started, I was able to get about 18 push-ups in
> one
> go. Now, 6 months later I'm able to do 40 push-ups in one set. I've
> cut down to 5 days per week now (every day Monday through Friday) and
> practically sleep all weekend due to my crazy work hours. I've
> noticed
> a difference in my chest, biceps, triceps, shoulders, and back. Now,
> I've got a real feel for pushing myself and I look forward to the
> moment each day when I can sneak away during my boss' daily meeting to
> do my push-ups. I would like to take weight training to another level
> with weights, etc but honestly, it'll be at least 3 years before I'll
> see a change in my work schedule. So, it looks like push-up's are my
> best/only option to build muscle, etc. Like I said above, I basically
> do the same type of push up's every day...5 days a week...one set.
> I'd
> like to expand this routine and build some sort of regular workout
> around push-ups and other things I might be able to do in a cubicle
> without any weights. I'm hoping someone here might be able to make
> some suggestions or point me to a good book or web site. I'm
> interested in building my upper body as much as I can.
> Also, what type of results can I expect to get if I continue to add
> quantity to my daily push-ups. I'm guessing muscles grow differently
> if you're simply adding reps and not really increasing the weight
> you're lifting. Do I need to worry about rest periods since I'm doing
> these push-up's every day Monday through Friday. Any/all help will be
> much appreciated. Thanks!
> Will
>
> PS...In addition to push-ups I walk back and forth to work every day.
> 40 minute walk one way.

One can build strength using only bodyweight - the one-legged squat and
the one-armed pushup are great for this. See Pavel's "Naked Warrior"
book for lots of details including working up to both these exercise,
suggested workout schedules, at the like - http://www.kbnj.com/nw.htm.
You can also find a lot of information about both exercise for free on
the Internet - the one-legged squat is often called the "pistol" so
search on that as well. Whatever you do, you should add leg work of
some kind to your program, even if it's only two-legged squats for reps.
Squat thrusts would be another option. Read the reviews of the book as
you scroll down the web page - you'll get a better idea of what it's
about.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

ff123
November 15th 04, 06:50 PM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:39:19 +0000, willjun
> wrote:

>
>Per Elmsäter Wrote:
>>
>> Why don't you use part of those 80 minutes you're walking to go to a
>> gym
>> instead.
>>
>
>I would if I could, but the morning walk is spent walking with my son
>to school, and the evening walk is spent walking home with my wife.
>Quality time :)
>
>Any ideas about a workout centered around push-up's, etc at the office?

Well, the real issue is about what you find important enough to make
time for, isn't it? After you decide that, the rest comes a lot more
easily.

But if you insist on an office only workout, I would chime in along
with Steve that you need to work legs. How about dumbbell squats?
And some upper body pulling -- dumbbell rows? Dumbbells are allowed
in your building, I assume (no offense intended). Don't neglect
flexibility.

ff123

willjun
November 16th 04, 04:47 PM
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:39:19 +0000, willjun
wrote:


Per Elmsäter Wrote:

Why don't you use part of those 80 minutes you're walking to go to a
gym
instead.


I would if I could, but the morning walk is spent walking with my son
to school, and the evening walk is spent walking home with my wife.
Quality time :)

Any ideas about a workout centered around push-up's, etc at the office?

Well, the real issue is about what you find important enough to make
time for, isn't it? After you decide that, the rest comes a lot more
easily.

But if you insist on an office only workout, I would chime in along
with Steve that you need to work legs. How about dumbbell squats?
And some upper body pulling -- dumbbell rows? Dumbbells are allowed
in your building, I assume (no offense intended). Don't neglect
flexibility.

ff123

Thanks for the tips. The Naked Warrior looks interesting. I took a brief look and will read more tonight.

Well, I have been thinking about it, and am considering joining a gym (there a small weight room in a rec center across the street from my apartment which I just found out about). Like I said, I've only been doing push-up's and walking/cycling. I'm 29. 6 foot tall, 169 pounds.
If I were to start lifting, I'm really hoping I can get some tips from members on this site. The rec center that I'll have access to is small and so there won't be anyone around for me to ask dumb newbie questions to. Basically, I'm interested in building up my upper body (chest, arms, shoulders, back, etc.) I figure I'll have about 45 - 60 minutes 3 days per week in the mornings to lift (On the remaining 2 week days I have access to a stationary bike here at work which I use for 45 minutes at lunch. And my weekends, well, they're out of the question entirely!)

Can anyone recommend a definitive book/video that shows the proper form used on various lifting exercises? Recommendations on how many times per week to lift? What to do on each day? When to add pounds to an exercise? Is it better to do more reps with less weight? Or add more weight and do less reps? How many sets? When/what to eat? How to warm up? Cool down? The basics. I took a look around the posts in this forum and there's lots of info. Some is very useful, some seems subjective. I'm really interested in taking my workouts to a new level. I really enjoy pushing myself physically. Any recommendations on where to begin? I want to maximize results but I don't want to hurt myself or work against myself. Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!!
Scott

Another nobody
November 16th 04, 05:17 PM
Try doing the push-ups with your feet elevated on a chair.

Steve Freides
November 16th 04, 06:17 PM
"willjun" > wrote in message
...
>
> ff123 Wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:39:19 +0000, willjun
>> wrote:
>> -
>>
>> Per Elmsäter Wrote:-
>>
>> Why don't you use part of those 80 minutes you're walking to go to a
>> gym
>> instead.
>> -
>>
>> I would if I could, but the morning walk is spent walking with my son
>> to school, and the evening walk is spent walking home with my wife.
>> Quality time :)
>>
>> Any ideas about a workout centered around push-up's, etc at the
>> office?-
>>
>> Well, the real issue is about what you find important enough to make
>> time for, isn't it? After you decide that, the rest comes a lot more
>> easily.
>>
>> But if you insist on an office only workout, I would chime in along
>> with Steve that you need to work legs. How about dumbbell squats?
>> And some upper body pulling -- dumbbell rows? Dumbbells are allowed
>> in your building, I assume (no offense intended). Don't neglect
>> flexibility.
>>
>> ff123
>
> Thanks for the tips. The Naked Warrior looks interesting. I took a
> brief look and will read more tonight.
>
> Well, I have been thinking about it, and am considering joining a gym
> (there a small weight room in a rec center across the street from my
> apartment which I just found out about). Like I said, I've only been
> doing push-up's and walking/cycling. I'm 29. 6 foot tall, 169
> pounds.
>
> If I were to start lifting, I'm really hoping I can get some tips from
> members on this site. The rec center that I'll have access to is
> small
> and so there won't be anyone around for me to ask dumb newbie
> questions
> to. Basically, I'm interested in building up my upper body (chest,
> arms, shoulders, back, etc.) I figure I'll have about 45 - 60 minutes
> 3
> days per week in the mornings to lift (On the remaining 2 week days I
> have access to a stationary bike here at work which I use for 45
> minutes at lunch. And my weekends, well, they're out of the question
> entirely!)
>
> Can anyone recommend a definitive book/video that shows the proper
> form
> used on various lifting exercises? Recommendations on how many times
> per week to lift? What to do on each day? When to add pounds to an
> exercise? Is it better to do more reps with less weight? Or add more
> weight and do less reps? How many sets? When/what to eat? How to
> warm up? Cool down? The basics. I took a look around the posts in
> this forum and there's lots of info. Some is very useful, some seems
> subjective. I'm really interested in taking my workouts to a new
> level. I really enjoy pushing myself physically. Any recommendations
> on where to begin? I want to maximize results but I don't want to
> hurt
> myself or work against myself. Any info or suggestions would be
> greatly
> appreciated!! Thanks!!
> Scott

Building strength and building size require different approaches,
although sometimes working on one will get you some of the other. There
is no definitive set/rep scheme that works for everyone for all goals.
Generally speaking, more reps (up to a point) per set will focus more on
size, as will shorter rest periods between sets and more days between
working the same muscles. Short sets which will allow for heavier
weights - that plus longer rests between sets and training more days per
week will focus more on strength. If you're trying to gain muscle, be
sure to eat enough and expect to gain a little fat along the way.
Krista's site, http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html, has a lot of good
info, and I've already pointed you to my site and the DragonDoor site
which take a different approach. Try http://www.exrx.net for exercise
specifics, use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
more on gaining size.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Per Elmsäter
November 16th 04, 06:29 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
> more on gaining size.

What would be the opposite of "hypertrophy-specific training"? Ie to gain as
much strength as possible with as little mass gain as possible.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Lee Michaels
November 16th 04, 06:43 PM
"Per Elmsäter" wrote

> Steve Freides wrote:
> > use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
> > more on gaining size.
>
> What would be the opposite of "hypertrophy-specific training"? Ie to gain
as
> much strength as possible with as little mass gain as possible.
>

Anorexia Nervosa.

Starve yourself into a near death state.

Practiced by many young women and models.

Per Elmsäter
November 16th 04, 07:43 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" wrote
>
>> Steve Freides wrote:
>>> use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
>>> more on gaining size.
>>
>> What would be the opposite of "hypertrophy-specific training"? Ie to
>> gain as much strength as possible with as little mass gain as
>> possible.
>>
>
> Anorexia Nervosa.
>
> Starve yourself into a near death state.
>
> Practiced by many young women and models.

Are you implying I'm young, woman and a model? I'm sorry, you're wrong on
all accounts. Now tell me what it's called when you are for instance a
competitive powerlifter that wants to get stronger but he doesn't want to
gain any weight so's he won't be moved up to a higher weight class.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

willjun
November 16th 04, 09:12 PM
Building strength and building size require different approaches,
although sometimes working on one will get you some of the other. There
is no definitive set/rep scheme that works for everyone for all goals.
Generally speaking, more reps (up to a point) per set will focus more on
size, as will shorter rest periods between sets and more days between
working the same muscles. Short sets which will allow for heavier
weights - that plus longer rests between sets and training more days per
week will focus more on strength. If you're trying to gain muscle, be
sure to eat enough and expect to gain a little fat along the way.
Krista's site, http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html, has a lot of good
info, and I've already pointed you to my site and the DragonDoor site
which take a different approach. Try http://www.exrx.net for exercise
specifics, use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
more on gaining size.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Thanks for the info. To build size you mentioned more reps (up to a point) per set, shorter rest periods between sets, and more days between working the same muscles.

How many reps per set might be too much when attempting to gain size?

Also wanted to ask about these weight vests I saw at the sports store last night. Its some sort of velcro vest that you can add anywhere from 1 lb to 40 lbs to increase your bodyweight. Wondering if this might help me to add weight to my push-ups if the gym solution falls through. Wondering if I could hurt my back using one of these for push-ups though?

If I'm stuck with the push-ups, would be it better to start adding weight and breaking up the workout into sets rather than go full force for one set of 40+ reps and stop there? What might the number of reps be per set so I know how much weight to add (if the targetted amount of reps for the first set is 15 then I can add enough pounds to the vest to make that a challenging 15, etc).

At the very least, I'd like to add a few more exercises to the push-ups and perhaps try to alternate days. Maybe push-ups (with increased weight via vest) for chest and triceps, pull-ups for back and biceps (I guess I could incorporate the weighted vest for pull-ups too), and some exercises for shoulders. Can anyone help me to organize a weekly routine around these exercises? Do I do them all in one day or try to break them up onto alternating days. Days off? Etc.

Thanks again for all the great help you guys are providing me. I really appreciate it!
Scott

Steve Freides
November 16th 04, 10:19 PM
"willjun" > wrote in message
...
>
> Steve Freides Wrote:
>>
>> Building strength and building size require different approaches,
>> although sometimes working on one will get you some of the other.
>> There
>> is no definitive set/rep scheme that works for everyone for all
>> goals.
>> Generally speaking, more reps (up to a point) per set will focus more
>> on
>> size, as will shorter rest periods between sets and more days between
>> working the same muscles. Short sets which will allow for heavier
>> weights - that plus longer rests between sets and training more days
>> per
>> week will focus more on strength. If you're trying to gain muscle,
>> be
>> sure to eat enough and expect to gain a little fat along the way.
>> Krista's site, http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html, has a lot of
>> good
>> info, and I've already pointed you to my site and the DragonDoor site
>> which take a different approach. Try http://www.exrx.net for
>> exercise
>> specifics, use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
>> more on gaining size.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Thanks for the info. To build size you mentioned more reps (up to a
> point) per set, shorter rest periods between sets, and more days
> between working the same muscles.
>
> How many reps per set might be too much when attempting to gain size?

Most people would say 12 is OK and 15 probably too many - sounds right
to me.

> Also wanted to ask about these weight vests I saw at the sports store
> last night. Its some sort of velcro vest that you can add anywhere
> from 1 lb to 40 lbs to increase your bodyweight. Wondering if this
> might help me to add weight to my push-ups if the gym solution falls
> through. Wondering if I could hurt my back using one of these for
> push-ups though?

Weighted vests are great, I've heard, but only if you get a good one. I
believe they cost in the $150 range. Search on x-vest and see what you
come up with. They're also discussed regularly on
http://forum.dragondoor.com if you want to go there and search the
archives.

> If I'm stuck with the push-ups, would be it better to start adding
> weight and breaking up the workout into sets rather than go full force
> for one set of 40+ reps and stop there? What might the number of reps
> be per set so I know how much weight to add (if the targetted amount
> of
> reps for the first set is 15 then I can add enough pounds to the vest
> to
> make that a challenging 15, etc).

I'd go for a one-armed pushups instead. The NW book I mentioned
includes many ways to work towards that, most of which involve using two
hands but putting the other hand at a mechanical disadvantage, e.g.,
putting it out to the side, using fewer fingers, raising the other hand,
etc. As to one set or many for regular pushups, you'll get a greater
total training volume by breaking it up and the greater volume is a good
thing. Try sets of :30-:60 in length followed by :30-60 of rest - lots
of volume possible that way. Raised legs, which someone else mentioned,
are also good. You can work up to doing pushups from a wall-supported
handstand position.

> At the very least, I'd like to add a few more exercises to the
> push-ups
> and perhaps try to alternate days. Maybe push-ups (with increased
> weight via vest) for chest and triceps, pull-ups for back and biceps
> (I
> guess I could incorporate the weighted vest for pull-ups too), and
> some
> exercises for shoulders. Can anyone help me to organize a weekly
> routine around these exercises? Do I do them all in one day or try to
> break them up onto alternating days. Days off? Etc.

I'd just play it by ear for a while - try some new exercises, see what
you think, let the training schedule evolve on its own for now.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Thanks again for all the great help you guys are providing me. I
> really appreciate it!
> Scott
>
>
> --
> willjun

Helgi Briem
November 17th 04, 09:25 AM
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:29:25 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" >
wrote:

>Steve Freides wrote:
>> use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
>> more on gaining size.
>
>What would be the opposite of "hypertrophy-specific training"? Ie to gain as
>much strength as possible with as little mass gain as possible.

Multiple sets with low reps, high weight. Don't eat a lot.

Probably best to cycle the weights a bit. Working near
your max for long periods is very hard on your joints
and CNS.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Per Elmsäter
November 17th 04, 10:02 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
>> I've also heard that I Should stay with 12-15 reps in a set and that
>> bodybuilders like to do 4-6 reps in a set.
>
> As I don't know what you want to accomplish, I don't know what's right
> for you. Even if I did know what your goals were, all I can do is
> report what's worked and not worked for me.

I'm a cyclist doing winter training at the Gym. I want to get as strong as
possible while gaining as little weight as possible. At the same time I'm
going from 22% body fat to 10% over the winter. I'm at 16% now, measured
with calipers.

So far everybody has been telling me to do 12 reps and up including my PT.
Now I'm starting to run across info saying I should stay under 5 reps maybe
even less than 3. I'd like to go down in reps and increase my weights
because I enjoy lifting heavy weights but at the same time I want to improve
my bicycling next season.

Since I wrote my last post I've found some more articles at the site you
mention and I'll look through them. I surely appreciate all input I get.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Steve Freides
November 17th 04, 10:27 PM
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
>>> I've also heard that I Should stay with 12-15 reps in a set and
>>> that
>>> bodybuilders like to do 4-6 reps in a set.
>>
>> As I don't know what you want to accomplish, I don't know what's
>> right
>> for you. Even if I did know what your goals were, all I can do is
>> report what's worked and not worked for me.
>
> I'm a cyclist doing winter training at the Gym. I want to get as
> strong as
> possible while gaining as little weight as possible. At the same time
> I'm
> going from 22% body fat to 10% over the winter. I'm at 16% now,
> measured
> with calipers.
>
> So far everybody has been telling me to do 12 reps and up including my
> PT.
> Now I'm starting to run across info saying I should stay under 5 reps
> maybe
> even less than 3. I'd like to go down in reps and increase my weights
> because I enjoy lifting heavy weights but at the same time I want to
> improve
> my bicycling next season.
>
> Since I wrote my last post I've found some more articles at the site
> you
> mention and I'll look through them. I surely appreciate all input I
> get.

There's no one right answer for everyone. It's been my experience that,
for endurance athletes with little limit strength, improving their limit
strength can improve their overall performance, but such an approach is
very much _not_ sport-specific. It's rather training for overall
fitness than specifically for bicycling or anything else.

Ask on a cycling newsgroup - there are quite a few, including
rec.bicycles.tech and rec.bicycles.misc, and see what opinions you get
there. Most will encourage the high-reps but it's not the approach I've
found to work best for me.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Per Elmsäter
November 17th 04, 11:28 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> Ask on a cycling newsgroup - there are quite a few, including
> rec.bicycles.tech and rec.bicycles.misc, and see what opinions you get
> there. Most will encourage the high-reps but it's not the approach
> I've found to work best for me.

Why do you think I'm here?
Naturally I started asking cyclists and received a different answer from
everybody, including the group that think all strength training shall be
done on the bicycle. I'm now doing my own research and trying to find what
works for me. One thing that shows I'm on the right way is that I really
like to work out in a gym and to do resistance training. That in itself
means I can get a lot of training done, which is better than following
somebody's advice to something I'll have trouble putting in even an hour a
week of. I believe any training is better than no training up to a certain
point where you have to get very specific. I don't think I've reached that
point in cycling and possibly never will. So yes I'm also training my
general fitness, but I still want to gain as little weight as possible.



--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Steve Freides
November 18th 04, 12:32 AM
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> Ask on a cycling newsgroup - there are quite a few, including
>> rec.bicycles.tech and rec.bicycles.misc, and see what opinions you
>> get
>> there. Most will encourage the high-reps but it's not the approach
>> I've found to work best for me.
>
> Why do you think I'm here?
> Naturally I started asking cyclists and received a different answer
> from
> everybody, including the group that think all strength training shall
> be
> done on the bicycle. I'm now doing my own research and trying to find
> what
> works for me. One thing that shows I'm on the right way is that I
> really
> like to work out in a gym and to do resistance training. That in
> itself
> means I can get a lot of training done, which is better than following
> somebody's advice to something I'll have trouble putting in even an
> hour a
> week of. I believe any training is better than no training up to a
> certain
> point where you have to get very specific. I don't think I've reached
> that
> point in cycling and possibly never will. So yes I'm also training my
> general fitness, but I still want to gain as little weight as
> possible.

Whether or not you gain weight is determined mostly by how much you eat
relative to what your body requires to maintain its current weight - and
not by how you exercise. If you don't eat enough to gain, you won't
gain, although if you train in a manner conducive to weight gain but
don't feed yourself, you'll likely end up tired and sick.

Best of luck to you with whatever training approach you decide to take.
My personal feeling, based on what you've said so far, is that you'll
like a pure strength protocol and what it does for you. Since it sounds
like you've never tried that before, it's probably worth a go now.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


>
>
> --
> Perre
> I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.
>
>
>

Renegade5
November 18th 04, 01:31 AM
At the risk of being flamed to a crisp... office workouts:
- resistance bands
- SuperSlow ('Power of 10', 'Slowburn') - ie. skip the office workout
and just work-out once or twice a week at home
- body weight exercises (besides Pavel's 'Naked Warrior' there is also
'Pushing Yourself to Power' by John Peterson, which is supposed to be
really good, Charles Atlas routine, and various military/Navy Seals
routines)




On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:12:09 +0000, willjun
> wrote:

>
>Steve Freides Wrote:
>>
>> Building strength and building size require different approaches,
>> although sometimes working on one will get you some of the other.
>> There
>> is no definitive set/rep scheme that works for everyone for all goals.
>> Generally speaking, more reps (up to a point) per set will focus more
>> on
>> size, as will shorter rest periods between sets and more days between
>> working the same muscles. Short sets which will allow for heavier
>> weights - that plus longer rests between sets and training more days
>> per
>> week will focus more on strength. If you're trying to gain muscle, be
>> sure to eat enough and expect to gain a little fat along the way.
>> Krista's site, http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html, has a lot of
>> good
>> info, and I've already pointed you to my site and the DragonDoor site
>> which take a different approach. Try http://www.exrx.net for exercise
>> specifics, use Google and look up "hypertrophy-specific training" for
>> more on gaining size.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>Thanks for the info. To build size you mentioned more reps (up to a
>point) per set, shorter rest periods between sets, and more days
>between working the same muscles.
>
>How many reps per set might be too much when attempting to gain size?
>
>
>Also wanted to ask about these weight vests I saw at the sports store
>last night. Its some sort of velcro vest that you can add anywhere
>from 1 lb to 40 lbs to increase your bodyweight. Wondering if this
>might help me to add weight to my push-ups if the gym solution falls
>through. Wondering if I could hurt my back using one of these for
>push-ups though?
>
>If I'm stuck with the push-ups, would be it better to start adding
>weight and breaking up the workout into sets rather than go full force
>for one set of 40+ reps and stop there? What might the number of reps
>be per set so I know how much weight to add (if the targetted amount of
>reps for the first set is 15 then I can add enough pounds to the vest to
>make that a challenging 15, etc).
>
>At the very least, I'd like to add a few more exercises to the push-ups
>and perhaps try to alternate days. Maybe push-ups (with increased
>weight via vest) for chest and triceps, pull-ups for back and biceps (I
>guess I could incorporate the weighted vest for pull-ups too), and some
>exercises for shoulders. Can anyone help me to organize a weekly
>routine around these exercises? Do I do them all in one day or try to
>break them up onto alternating days. Days off? Etc.
>
>Thanks again for all the great help you guys are providing me. I
>really appreciate it!
>Scott
>
>
>--
>willjun

Dave Smith
November 18th 04, 06:28 AM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:02:40 +0100, "Per Elmsäter"
> wrote:

>>
>I'm a cyclist doing winter training at the Gym. I want to get as strong as
>possible while gaining as little weight as possible. At the same time I'm
>going from 22% body fat to 10% over the winter. I'm at 16% now, measured
>with calipers.
>
>So far everybody has been telling me to do 12 reps and up including my PT.
>Now I'm starting to run across info saying I should stay under 5 reps maybe
>even less than 3. I'd like to go down in reps and increase my weights
>because I enjoy lifting heavy weights but at the same time I want to improve
>my bicycling next season.
>
>Since I wrote my last post I've found some more articles at the site you
>mention and I'll look through them. I surely appreciate all input I get.

I'm a cyclist and also train with weights.

You don't say if your goal is to be a stronger cyclist, or just
generally stronger. If you want to be generally stronger. I'd say to
work with heavier weights/fewer reps. If you want to be stronger on
the bike, go with 10-12 reps. A couple of things to think about:

Muscle tissue is very hungry metabolically. It uses a lot of oxygen
when it's working. If you gain muscle mass, you will go anaerobic
sooner and/or with less effort when you are working hard on the bike.
That's OK if you are a sprinter, not if you are a climber.

If you train heavy and don't eat, you won't get *much* stronger, but
you will trash your body.

Cycling is a very high rep sport. If you train at 12 reps, that *is*
low rep training for cycling and you will get much stronger on the
bike.

Not to criticize, but 22% body fat is pretty high. To try to drop to
10% over one winter is asking a lot. Take it easy. Think about
reaching that 10% by the end of the summer and your training will go
better. There's no point in beating yourself up.

Peter Allen
November 18th 04, 11:32 AM
"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm a cyclist and also train with weights.
>
> A couple of things to think about:
>
> Muscle tissue is very hungry metabolically. It uses a lot of oxygen
> when it's working. If you gain muscle mass, you will go anaerobic
> sooner and/or with less effort when you are working hard on the bike.
> That's OK if you are a sprinter, not if you are a climber.

As written, that's certainly not true - your power at AT will almost
certainly go up if you put on muscle. I assume you mean, power to weight
ratio at AT will go down so you go anaerobic at a slower speed up hills. In
which case, that's probably true if you start off really fit; it isn't
always true if you start off with relatively poor strength and fitness.
Because first the extra muscle allows you to train harder without trashing
your legs, so you can do more work before getting overtrained and you end up
fitter, and then you can push the pedals more easily, so for example you can
stay in the saddle, in the drops even, while everyone else has to get out of
the saddle and waste energy blocking extra wind (which of course you profit
from since you're drafting) and supporting themselves. It's also my
experience that blowing up due to trying to sustain power over your AT
doesn't feel very different to blowing up trying to sustain power that's
actually 30W under AT, but at a low cadence / stroke rate / whatever, so
that your muscles are being really tested as well as your CV system.

I agree with the bits I've snipped.

Peter

Dave Smith
November 18th 04, 01:33 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:32:19 -0000, "Peter Allen"
> wrote:

>"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I'm a cyclist and also train with weights.
>>
>> A couple of things to think about:
>>
>> Muscle tissue is very hungry metabolically. It uses a lot of oxygen
>> when it's working. If you gain muscle mass, you will go anaerobic
>> sooner and/or with less effort when you are working hard on the bike.
>> That's OK if you are a sprinter, not if you are a climber.
>
>As written, that's certainly not true - your power at AT will almost
>certainly go up if you put on muscle. I assume you mean, power to weight
>ratio at AT will go down so you go anaerobic at a slower speed up hills. In
>which case, that's probably true if you start off really fit; it isn't
>always true if you start off with relatively poor strength and fitness.
>Because first the extra muscle allows you to train harder without trashing
>your legs, so you can do more work before getting overtrained and you end up
>fitter, and then you can push the pedals more easily, so for example you can
>stay in the saddle, in the drops even, while everyone else has to get out of
>the saddle and waste energy blocking extra wind (which of course you profit
>from since you're drafting) and supporting themselves. It's also my
>experience that blowing up due to trying to sustain power over your AT
>doesn't feel very different to blowing up trying to sustain power that's
>actually 30W under AT, but at a low cadence / stroke rate / whatever, so
>that your muscles are being really tested as well as your CV system.
>
>I agree with the bits I've snipped.
>
>Peter
>
Agreed and very well put. That's why I wondered what the OP's goal
is. Cycling, especially climbing, is about more than power. You also
are correct about the initial state of fitness. I wasn't considering
that in the above paragraph.

As an aside, was there ever a more beautiful sight in cycling than
tiny little Marco Pantani absolutely dancing up the Alp D'Huez? So
sad.

Per Elmsäter
November 18th 04, 03:47 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> Best of luck to you with whatever training approach you decide to
> take. My personal feeling, based on what you've said so far, is that
> you'll like a pure strength protocol and what it does for you. Since
> it sounds like you've never tried that before, it's probably worth a
> go now.
>

I will certainly look into it.
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Per Elmsäter
November 18th 04, 04:10 PM
Dave Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:32:19 -0000, "Peter Allen"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> I'm a cyclist and also train with weights.
>>>
>>> A couple of things to think about:
>>>
>>> Muscle tissue is very hungry metabolically. It uses a lot of oxygen
>>> when it's working. If you gain muscle mass, you will go anaerobic
>>> sooner and/or with less effort when you are working hard on the
>>> bike. That's OK if you are a sprinter, not if you are a climber.
>>
>> As written, that's certainly not true - your power at AT will almost
>> certainly go up if you put on muscle. I assume you mean, power to
>> weight ratio at AT will go down so you go anaerobic at a slower
>> speed up hills. In which case, that's probably true if you start off
>> really fit; it isn't always true if you start off with relatively
>> poor strength and fitness. Because first the extra muscle allows you
>> to train harder without trashing your legs, so you can do more work
>> before getting overtrained and you end up fitter, and then you can
>> push the pedals more easily, so for example you can stay in the
>> saddle, in the drops even, while everyone else has to get out of the
>> saddle and waste energy blocking extra wind (which of course you
>> profit from since you're drafting) and supporting themselves. It's
>> also my experience that blowing up due to trying to sustain power
>> over your AT doesn't feel very different to blowing up trying to
>> sustain power that's actually 30W under AT, but at a low cadence /
>> stroke rate / whatever, so that your muscles are being really tested
>> as well as your CV system.
>>
>> I agree with the bits I've snipped.
>>
>> Peter
>>
> Agreed and very well put. That's why I wondered what the OP's goal
> is. Cycling, especially climbing, is about more than power. You also
> are correct about the initial state of fitness. I wasn't considering
> that in the above paragraph.
>

Thanks both of you for interesting views. There are no mountains where I
ride. What my daily riding consists of is rolling hills that everybody
bursts over going anaerobic. If I want to stay with the pack I have to be
able to put out 500W again and again for short durations of 30-90 seconds,
without getting to wasted. Not to mention accelerating at the top of the
hill. I am far from my own limits yet and therefore I don't believe I need
to specialize with on-the-bike strength training only for several years to
come. Of course I still do workouts on my trainer and my rollers. If I can
maintain my aerobic power and increase my anaerobic power I will be very
much more competitive on the type of terrain I ride. As for body fat. I'm at
16% now and started out at 22% half a year ago so I don't think 10% come
spring is very unrealistic at all. The loss of bodyweight in itself will
help me to get over the few mountains I will ride next year, like when I do
a five day recreational race in Norway
http://www.vikingtour.no/engviking.htm



--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Peter Allen
November 18th 04, 09:47 PM
"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> As an aside, was there ever a more beautiful sight in cycling than
> tiny little Marco Pantani absolutely dancing up the Alp D'Huez? So
> sad.

Especially when he looked like he was coming back to something like his old
form in the Giro. Mental health issues are not good.

Peter

Dave Smith
November 19th 04, 02:36 AM
The loss of bodyweight in itself will
>help me to get over the few mountains I will ride next year, like when I do
>a five day recreational race in Norway
>http://www.vikingtour.no/engviking.htm

WOW!

I hope you have a great time. Good luck and keep the rubber side
down.