PDA

View Full Version : what is negatives?


fj
November 16th 04, 06:00 PM
what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?

-fj

Lee Michaels
November 16th 04, 06:19 PM
"fj" > wrote in message
...
> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>
Negatives are the eccentric part of the movement. Or lowering the weight.

Think of a barbell curl. You grab the bar. You lift the bar through a range
of motion with the weight ending up by your shoulders. Then you lower the
weight.

Lifting the bar is the concentric contraction. Or "lifting" the weight.

Lowering the bar is the eccentic part of the motion. Or the "negative" part
of the movement.

Most people who are not advanced athletes can lower more than the can lift.
A lot of science and research has gone into these different contractions and
what they do. They are different from each other. But the vast majority of
people should include a healthy dose of each in their workouts.

Some nerds like to debate the negatives versus positives effects endlessly.

Adam Fahy
November 16th 04, 06:28 PM
fj wrote:

> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?

It's the lowering phase of a rep (eccentric; as opposed to raising,
concentric). When people say they're doing sets of negatives, they
usually mean they will take a heavy weight and only do the lowering
part, for which they can use heavier weights than if they were to do a
complete or concentric-only rep.


-Adam

fj
November 16th 04, 06:45 PM
"Adam Fahy" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> fj wrote:
>
> > what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more
than
> > the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>
> It's the lowering phase of a rep (eccentric; as opposed to raising,
> concentric). When people say they're doing sets of negatives, they
> usually mean they will take a heavy weight and only do the lowering
> part, for which they can use heavier weights than if they were to do a
> complete or concentric-only rep.
>
>
> -Adam

Now I get it. Sounds very difficult to me because I train alone.

Adam Fahy
November 16th 04, 07:06 PM
fj wrote:

> "Adam Fahy" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]

>>It's the lowering phase of a rep (eccentric; as opposed to raising,
>>concentric). When people say they're doing sets of negatives, they
>>usually mean they will take a heavy weight and only do the lowering
>>part, for which they can use heavier weights than if they were to do a
>>complete or concentric-only rep.

> Now I get it. Sounds very difficult to me because I train alone.

Yeah, but you can do things like Zottman curls, where you do the
positive (raising) phase of a dumbell curl normally, then do the
lowering phase as a reverse curl (rotate your wrists so your palms then
face the ground).


-Adam

gman99
November 16th 04, 10:03 PM
"fj" > wrote:
> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more
> than the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>
> -fj

It's the gravity part of the movement....ie...in a bench press the negative
is letting the weight come to your chest...

Richard Smith
November 17th 04, 02:12 AM
"fj" > wrote in message
...
> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?

Eccentric vs concentric contraction...

Richard


>
> -fj
>
>

John HUDSON
November 17th 04, 08:49 AM
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:12:10 -0600, "Richard Smith"
> wrote:

>
>"fj" > wrote in message
...
>> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
>> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>
>Eccentric vs concentric contraction...

Are you suggesting that muscles shorten during the "eccentric" phase
of an exercise Richard?

"con·trac·tion Audio pronunciation of "contraction" ( P )
Pronunciation Key (kn-trkshn)
n.

1. The act of contracting or the state of being contracted.

2. Physiology. The *shortening* and thickening of functioning muscle
or muscle fiber."

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

November 17th 04, 12:24 PM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:49:19 +0000, John HUDSON >
wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:12:10 -0600, "Richard Smith"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"fj" > wrote in message
...
>>> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
>>> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>>
>>Eccentric vs concentric contraction...
>
>Are you suggesting that muscles shorten during the "eccentric" phase
>of an exercise Richard?
>
>"con·trac·tion Audio pronunciation of "contraction" ( P )
>Pronunciation Key (kn-trkshn)
>n.
>
>1. The act of contracting or the state of being contracted.
>
>2. Physiology. The *shortening* and thickening of functioning muscle
>or muscle fiber."
>
>Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
>Fourth Edition
>Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/health/nutrition/16sore.html?pagewanted=all

Work Out Now, Ache Later: How Your Muscles Pay You Back
By VICKY LOWRY

Published: November 16, 2004
New York Times


Active people know the feeling all too well: a stiff and achy
sensation in the muscles that sneaks up on the body 24 hours or more
after, say, a hard run, a challenging weight lifting session or the
first day back on the ski slopes.

Sports scientists call it delayed onset of muscle soreness. Athletes
call it a nuisance because even simple movements like walking down
stairs can be an ordeal. If the soreness is severe enough, it can
hamper the next workout or even ruin a ski vacation.

Because of the delay, some people may not even realize that the
aches and pains were caused by an activity - gardening, for example,
or hammering nails - engaged in days before.

"I've had patients call me up who think they have a virus," said Dr.
Gary Wadler, a professor at the New York University School of
Medicine and a specialist in sports medicine.

The culprit for delayed muscle soreness is not, as some people used
to think, the buildup of lactic acid, a byproduct of exercise that
dissipates from the muscle tissues within an hour. That kind of
soreness is considered acute. As soon as someone stops exercising,
or shortly afterward, the burn goes away.

"It's not the key bad guy," said Dr. Michael Saunders, director of
the Human Performance Laboratory at James Madison University in
Harrisonburg, Va.

No one knows for sure exactly what does cause muscle soreness. But
many scientists now think that the delayed pain is caused by
microscopic tears in the muscles when a certain exercise or activity
is new or novel. These tiny tears eventually produce inflammation,
and corresponding pain, 24 to 36 hours later.

"White blood cells start to repair the damaged muscle after about 12
to 24 hours and they release a number of chemicals which are likely
to be involved in the generation of local muscle pain," said Dr.
Mark Tarnopolsky, a specialist in neuromuscular disorders at the
McMaster University Medical Center in Hamilton, Ontario. "You see
damage at the microscopic level immediately after exercise, yet the
soreness is usually delayed for about 24 hours and peaks at 48
hours."

The good news is that as these little tears repair themselves, they
prepare the muscles to handle the same type of exercise better the
next time.

"The muscle gets more resilient, meaning the next time you do that
same exercise you won't get damaged as much," said Dr. Priscilla
Clarkson, a professor of exercise science at the University of
Massachusetts and a leading researcher on muscle soreness. "That
doesn't mean you are stronger, or mean you can lift more weight. It
just means your muscle fibers are likely stronger so they won't tear
as easily. Over time they'll build up and become a stronger fiber to
lift more weight."

Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
weights - what weight lifters refer to as "negatives." In these
downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, "like putting on
the brakes," Dr. Clarkson explained. "It's that
lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
does the most damage."

Of the 600 or so muscles in the human body, about 400 of them are
skeletal. The largest of these are the muscles most susceptible to
delayed soreness, Dr. Wadler said.

Severe muscle pain that lasts for many days can be a sign of
rhabdomyolysis, a disorder that occurs when too much of the muscle
protein myoglobin leaks from the muscle cells into the bloodstream,
possibly damaging the kidneys.

Dark urine, indicating the presence of myoglobin, can be a symptom
of rhabdomyolysis, which in very rare cases can lead to renal
failure.

Running marathons and participating in other endurance events can
cause rhabdomyolysis, said Dr. William O. Roberts, president of the
American College of Sports Medicine. Other risk factors include
being unfit or dehydrated and exercising in high temperatures.
"It's one of the reasons why you want to stay well hydrated if you
are going to work your muscles hard," Dr. Roberts said. "Drink
enough so that you have good urine output to clear these waste
products." In most cases, though, delayed muscle soreness is not
serious, and the soreness fades after a day or two of rest. Weight
lifters typically work out the lower body one day and the upper body
the next to give fatigued muscles a chance to recover. And
conditioned athletes, like cyclists and runners, often alternate
between easy and hard days of exercise. "Stress-adapt, stress-adapt
so you can handle more and more exercise," said Dr. Tarnopolsky.
"That's what an athlete strives for."

The results for other strategies for avoiding or recovering more
quickly from muscle soreness are mixed. Many active people reach for
nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve. While some
data suggest that the drugs may work to prevent soreness or
alleviate it once it sets in, the degree of reduction in soreness is
small, Dr. Clarkson said.

Rarely, doctors prescribe the painkillers known as COX-2 inhibitors
for short-term muscle soreness. But the drugs, which include
Celebrex and Bextra, are more commonly used to treat arthritis.
And all cox-2 inhibitors are under increased scrutiny, after Vioxx
was pulled from the market in September. Merck withdrew it after
studies found it increased the risk of heart attacks and stroke.
Stretching does not prevent muscle soreness, researchers have found,
and massage does little to improve recovery after eccentric muscle
use, according to a study published in September in The American
Journal of Sports Medicine. In the study, researchers in Stockholm
found that after participants performed leg exercises to exhaustion,
massage treatment did not affect the level or duration of pain, loss
of strength or muscle function.

Consuming protein, however, may help. In a report published in the
July issue of the journal Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise,
scientists found that trained cyclists who consumed a carbohydrate
and protein beverage during and immediately after a ride, were able
to ride 29 percent longer during the first ride, and 40 percent
longer in a second session than those consuming carbohydrates alone.
"Our findings suggest that the protein-carbohydrate mix enhanced
muscle performance and recovery in the later rides," said Dr.
Saunders of James Madison, the study's lead author.

But further research is necessary. The results of the study may have
been influenced by a higher caloric content in the
carbohydrate-protein beverage.

"There is some evidence that consuming protein and carbohydrates in
the immediate period after exercise may decrease subsequent muscle
damage, but that research is in its infancy," said Dr. Tarnopolsky.
"What has been fairly well established is that eating food in the
postexercise period is better than starving.

"The take-home message is if you are training in the evening don't
go to bed on an empty stomach. And if you work out in the morning,
eat breakfast afterward or make darn sure to take a snack to work."
A practical tactic is to try to limit muscle soreness before it
takes hold. For that, you need to train the body to get used to
downhill or downward motions.

"Gradually run or walk down hills more if you are planning to
participate in a downhill event, or take an elevator up to the top
of a tall building and walk or run down the stairs," Dr. Roberts
recommended.

Hikers should consider using adjustable poles, which distribute some
of the stress on the legs, transferring it to the upper body, when
descending steep grades. "I put hiking poles into the hands of every
one of my clients and tell them that if they don't like them I'll
carry them," said Nate Goldberg, who routinely guides hikes up
14,000-foot peaks in the Sawatch Mountains of Colorado as director
of the Beaver Creek Hiking Center. "Very rarely do I get a set of
poles back."

Seasoned athletes, it turns out, are no more immune to delayed onset
of muscle soreness than neophyte exercisers. "If I asked Lance
Armstrong to run down 10 flights of stairs, he'd be very sore," Dr.
Clarkson said. "It's all about sport specificity."

John HUDSON
November 17th 04, 01:30 PM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:24:23 GMT, wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:49:19 +0000, John HUDSON >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:12:10 -0600, "Richard Smith"
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"fj" > wrote in message
...
>>>> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
>>>> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>>>
>>>Eccentric vs concentric contraction...
>>
>>Are you suggesting that muscles shorten during the "eccentric" phase
>>of an exercise Richard?
>>
>>"con·trac·tion Audio pronunciation of "contraction" ( P )
>>Pronunciation Key (kn-trkshn)
>>n.
>>
>>1. The act of contracting or the state of being contracted.
>>
>>2. Physiology. The *shortening* and thickening of functioning muscle
>>or muscle fiber."
>>
>>Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
>>Fourth Edition
>>Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
>
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/health/nutrition/16sore.html?pagewanted=all
>
>Work Out Now, Ache Later: How Your Muscles Pay You Back
>By VICKY LOWRY
>

[...]

I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.

It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!

Geddit?!! ;o)

November 17th 04, 11:27 PM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:30:31 +0000, John HUDSON >
wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:24:23 GMT, wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:49:19 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:12:10 -0600, "Richard Smith"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"fj" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
>>>>> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>>>>
>>>>Eccentric vs concentric contraction...
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting that muscles shorten during the "eccentric" phase
>>>of an exercise Richard?
>>>
>>>"con·trac·tion Audio pronunciation of "contraction" ( P )
>>>Pronunciation Key (kn-trkshn)
>>>n.
>>>
>>>1. The act of contracting or the state of being contracted.
>>>
>>>2. Physiology. The *shortening* and thickening of functioning muscle
>>>or muscle fiber."
>>>
>>>Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
>>>Fourth Edition
>>>Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
>>
>>
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/health/nutrition/16sore.html?pagewanted=all
>>
>>Work Out Now, Ache Later: How Your Muscles Pay You Back
>>By VICKY LOWRY
>>
>
>[...]
>
>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>
>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>
>Geddit?!! ;o)

Possibly so. : - s

The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.

And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
previously cited article:

"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
does the most damage.'

Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."

The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
Michael Colgan

John HUDSON
November 18th 04, 08:51 AM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:27:04 GMT, wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:30:31 +0000, John HUDSON >
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:24:23 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:49:19 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:12:10 -0600, "Richard Smith"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"fj" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> what does negative mean in weight lifting? Does it mean you lift more than
>>>>>> the max wieght you can lift? How does 'negative' make sense?
>>>>>
>>>>>Eccentric vs concentric contraction...
>>>>
>>>>Are you suggesting that muscles shorten during the "eccentric" phase
>>>>of an exercise Richard?
>>>>
>>>>"con·trac·tion Audio pronunciation of "contraction" ( P )
>>>>Pronunciation Key (kn-trkshn)
>>>>n.
>>>>
>>>>1. The act of contracting or the state of being contracted.
>>>>
>>>>2. Physiology. The *shortening* and thickening of functioning muscle
>>>>or muscle fiber."
>>>>
>>>>Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
>>>>Fourth Edition
>>>>Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/health/nutrition/16sore.html?pagewanted=all
>>>
>>>Work Out Now, Ache Later: How Your Muscles Pay You Back
>>>By VICKY LOWRY
>>>
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>
>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>
>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>
>Possibly so. : - s
>
>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>
>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>previously cited article:
>
>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>does the most damage.'
>
>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>
>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>Michael Colgan

I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
is one wishes to prove or disprove.

Welcome to the club!! ;o)

November 18th 04, 12:48 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
wrote:


>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>
>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>
>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>
>>Possibly so. : - s
>>
>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>
>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>previously cited article:
>>
>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>does the most damage.'
>>
>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>
>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>Michael Colgan
>
>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>
>Welcome to the club!! ;o)

John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
eccentric contractions.

I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.

Lee Michaels
November 18th 04, 01:38 PM
> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
> wrote:
>
>
> >>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
> >>>
> >>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
> >>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
> >>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
> >>>
> >>>Geddit?!! ;o)
> >>
> >>Possibly so. : - s
> >>
> >>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
> >>
> >>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
> >>previously cited article:
> >>
> >>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
> >>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
> >>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
> >>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
> >>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
> >>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
> >>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
> >>does the most damage.'
> >>
> >>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
> >>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
> >>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
> >>
> >>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
> >>Michael Colgan
> >
> >I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
> >practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
> >convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
> >is one wishes to prove or disprove.
> >
> >Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>
> John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
> semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
> eccentric contractions.
>
> I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.

Mr Hudson is also a master of an unsavory MFW tradition.

Whining and Trolling.

John HUDSON
November 18th 04, 02:02 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>wrote:
>
>
>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>
>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>
>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>
>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>
>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>
>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>previously cited article:
>>>
>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>does the most damage.'
>>>
>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>
>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>Michael Colgan
>>
>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>
>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>
>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>eccentric contractions.
>
>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.

Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)

The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
"contracting"!! ;o)

John HUDSON
November 18th 04, 02:07 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:38:19 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>> >>>
>> >>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>> >>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>> >>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>> >>>
>> >>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>> >>
>> >>Possibly so. : - s
>> >>
>> >>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>> >>
>> >>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>> >>previously cited article:
>> >>
>> >>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>> >>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>> >>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>> >>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>> >>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>> >>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>> >>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>> >>does the most damage.'
>> >>
>> >>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>> >>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>> >>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>> >>
>> >>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>> >>Michael Colgan
>> >
>> >I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>> >practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>> >convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>> >is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>> >
>> >Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>
>> John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>> semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>> eccentric contractions.
>>
>> I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>
>Mr Hudson is also a master of an unsavory MFW tradition.
>
>Whining and Trolling.

At last, oh lah!!

A validation of my entry into the Society of MFW Whiners and
Trollers, from the Chairman and Chief Executive himself!!

Thank you so much Lee, you are a splendid fellow!!

November 18th 04, 04:11 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>
>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>
>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>
>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>
>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>
>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>
>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>
>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>
>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>eccentric contractions.
>>
>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>
>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>
>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>"contracting"!! ;o)

Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
muscle progressively increases.

Lyle McDonald
November 18th 04, 05:04 PM
wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>>
>>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>>
>>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>>
>>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>>
>>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>>
>>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>>
>>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>>
>>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>>eccentric contractions.
>>>
>>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>>
>>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>>
>>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>>"contracting"!! ;o)

right, but like tone it's just one of those words taht everybody uses
(incorrectly), i might add but eveyrone knows what they mean.

So which is it, John, should a term be kept in popular use even though
incorrect even if everybody knows what it means?

Cuz that's the argument you're using for the word 'tone' but against
'eccentric contraction'. Both are incorrect but well understood in the
popular usage.

So which is it. Should we expect correct use of language or not?

Lyle
>
>
> Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
> and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
> and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
> muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
> actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
> cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
> muscle progressively increases.

Lee Michaels
November 18th 04, 05:08 PM
"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
> >>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
> >>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Possibly so. : - s
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
> >>>>>previously cited article:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
> >>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
> >>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
> >>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
> >>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
> >>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
> >>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
> >>>>>does the most damage.'
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
> >>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
> >>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
> >>>>>Michael Colgan
> >>>>
> >>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
> >>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
> >>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
> >>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
> >>>>
> >>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
> >>>
> >>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
> >>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
> >>>eccentric contractions.
> >>>
> >>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
> >>
> >>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
> >>
> >>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
> >>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
> >>"contracting"!! ;o)
>
> right, but like tone it's just one of those words taht everybody uses
> (incorrectly), i might add but eveyrone knows what they mean.
>
> So which is it, John, should a term be kept in popular use even though
> incorrect even if everybody knows what it means?
>
> Cuz that's the argument you're using for the word 'tone' but against
> 'eccentric contraction'. Both are incorrect but well understood in the
> popular usage.
>
> So which is it. Should we expect correct use of language or not?
>
HUDSON's position is very clear.

As MFW's chief whiner and troll, he will take any position opposite of what
I say. After all, it isn't exercise physiology or semantics that is his
forte.

Just a whinin' and a trollin'.

John HUDSON
November 18th 04, 06:04 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:04:57 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> wrote:

wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>>>
>>>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>>>eccentric contractions.
>>>>
>>>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>>>
>>>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>>>
>>>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>>>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>>>"contracting"!! ;o)
>
>right, but like tone it's just one of those words taht everybody uses
>(incorrectly), i might add but eveyrone knows what they mean.

Which is the point I make, so why is it necessary to 'explode' each
time some poor wretch comes here and mentions it?

>
>So which is it, John, should a term be kept in popular use even though
>incorrect even if everybody knows what it means?

I think it really rather depends on to whom one is speaking. If there
is a generalised question from someone who is a genuine 'newbie', then
perhaps it might be nice to be helpful and recognise the term. It is
only oafish to be rude to them because of their ignorance.

>
>Cuz that's the argument you're using for the word 'tone' but against
>'eccentric contraction'. Both are incorrect but well understood in the
>popular usage.

I have never attempted to use the two expressions as being in any way
related other than as an example of semantics.

>
>So which is it. Should we expect correct use of language or not?

In the case of "tone" then it is usually restricted to those not too
well informed, so we should make allowances.

In the case of "eccentric contractions" then it is obviously to do
with people who are more well informed, and we should perhaps be a
little more strict.

As you have adopted a sensible approach I will admit that I was in
error, and that it has been something of a game since I was first
pulled on it.

I made a faux pas a long time ago now and described a movement as "a
muscle shortening eccentrically" while other muscles were shortening
concentrically (it was to do with a rugby ball punt).

I was of course jumped upon from a great height by a few people
(nothing new in that), and chose to rely on semantic pedantics
concerning the meaning of "shortening" and "contracting" to keep the
ball rolling!! ;o)

So I know and understand "eccentric contractions" is correct and will
henceforth cease to irritate by making "short" cuts!! ;o)

John HUDSON
November 18th 04, 06:10 PM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:08:24 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

>
>"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>> >>>wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>> >>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>> >>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>> >>>>>previously cited article:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>> >>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>> >>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>> >>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>> >>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>> >>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>> >>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>> >>>>>does the most damage.'
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>> >>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>> >>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>> >>>>>Michael Colgan
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>> >>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>> >>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>> >>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>> >>>
>> >>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>> >>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>> >>>eccentric contractions.
>> >>>
>> >>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>> >>
>> >>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>> >>
>> >>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>> >>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>> >>"contracting"!! ;o)
>>
>> right, but like tone it's just one of those words taht everybody uses
>> (incorrectly), i might add but eveyrone knows what they mean.
>>
>> So which is it, John, should a term be kept in popular use even though
>> incorrect even if everybody knows what it means?
>>
>> Cuz that's the argument you're using for the word 'tone' but against
>> 'eccentric contraction'. Both are incorrect but well understood in the
>> popular usage.
>>
>> So which is it. Should we expect correct use of language or not?
>>
>HUDSON's position is very clear.
>
>As MFW's chief whiner and troll, he will take any position opposite of what
>I say.

Only because most of what you have to say is unkind, competitive and
stupid!!

>After all, it isn't exercise physiology or semantics that is his
>forte.
>
>Just a whinin' and a trollin'.

Your idiot repetitiveness is very boring Lee.

My " whinin' and a trollin'" was again in response to you being a
smart arse to a newbie, who had the temerity to mention "toning"!!

If you think you will ever get away Scot free, when you choose to
bully someone who doesn't deserve it, then jolly well think again old
lad!!

Axel of the North!
November 20th 04, 04:21 AM
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:01 GMT, wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>>
>>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>>
>>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>>
>>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>>
>>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>>
>>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>>
>>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>>
>>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>>eccentric contractions.
>>>
>>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>>
>>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>>
>>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>>"contracting"!! ;o)
>
>Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
>and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
>and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
>muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
>actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
>cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
>muscle progressively increases.

right. contractile muscle tissue. under load. shortens or lengthens.
and its sarcoplasmic, not myofibrillar in this case, right?

Keith Hobman
November 20th 04, 04:39 AM
In article >,
(Axel of the North!) wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:01 GMT, wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
> >>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
> >>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Possibly so. : - s
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
> >>>>>previously cited article:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
> >>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
> >>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
> >>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
> >>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
> >>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
> >>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
> >>>>>does the most damage.'
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
> >>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
> >>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
> >>>>>Michael Colgan
> >>>>
> >>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
> >>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
> >>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
> >>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
> >>>>
> >>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
> >>>
> >>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
> >>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
> >>>eccentric contractions.
> >>>
> >>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
> >>
> >>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
> >>
> >>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
> >>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
> >>"contracting"!! ;o)
> >
> >Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
> >and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
> >and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
> >muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
> >actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
> >cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
> >muscle progressively increases.
>
> right. contractile muscle tissue. under load. shortens or lengthens.
> and its sarcoplasmic, not myofibrillar in this case, right?

Huh?

November 20th 04, 05:08 PM
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 04:21:25 GMT, (Axel of the North!)
wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:01 GMT, wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>>>
>>>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>>>eccentric contractions.
>>>>
>>>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>>>
>>>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>>>
>>>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>>>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>>>"contracting"!! ;o)
>>
>>Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
>>and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
>>and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
>>muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
>>actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
>>cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
>>muscle progressively increases.
>
>right. contractile muscle tissue. under load. shortens or lengthens.
>and its sarcoplasmic, not myofibrillar in this case, right?

I'll wager a dime that since you've spelled myofibrillar and
sarcoplasmic correctly that you're fishing for a humorous, incorrect
answer.

Sarcoplasmic (non-functional) hypertrophy is an increase in the
non-contractile elements of a muscle fiber.
(Chrisitan Thibaudeau, The Black Book of Training Secrets)

Muscles are made of bundles of muscle fibers called fasciculi. Each
fasciculi is made of about 1000 microscopic filaments called
myofibrils. Each myofibril is a chain of sub-microscopic segments
called sarcomeres which shorten or lengthen to make the muscle work.
When a muscle lengthens under load, the sarcomeres do not lengthen
uniformly. Consequently, some parts of the myofibril, and other
myofibrils adjacent and attached to it, are stressed more than others.
Some sarcomeres fail under the strain and signal your brain to re-grow
them stronger. Myofibrillar damage that occurs under heavy eccentric
load is the major way in which the contractile fibers of your muscles
increase their strength.
(The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
Michael Colgan)

Axel of the North!
November 22nd 04, 03:18 AM
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:08:07 GMT, wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 04:21:25 GMT, (Axel of the North!)
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:11:01 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:35 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:48:23 GMT, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:51:00 +0000, John HUDSON >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think the irony has gone right over your head Oldman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It is to do with the semantics that gets argued here occasionally,
>>>>>>>>with a couple of my 'chums' asserting that muscles "contracting"
>>>>>>>>eccentrically, are not "shortening" eccentrically!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Geddit?!! ;o)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Possibly so. : - s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The muscle lengthens under load during eccentric contractions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And, of course, this doesn't contradict the following from the
>>>>>>>previously cited article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Performing certain exercises can almost guarantee delayed soreness:
>>>>>>>running, hiking or skiing downhill, for example, and lowering
>>>>>>>weights - what weight lifters refer to as 'negatives.' In these
>>>>>>>downhill or downward motions, called eccentric muscle actions, the
>>>>>>>muscle fibers have to lengthen and then contract, 'like putting on
>>>>>>>the brakes,' Dr. Clarkson explained. 'It's that
>>>>>>>lengthening-contraction that puts the most strain on the fiber and
>>>>>>>does the most damage.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Additionally, "just like an elastic band, the more a muscle lengthens
>>>>>>>under load, the smaller it becomes in cross-sectional area. Thus the
>>>>>>>load per square inch of cross-section becomes progressively larger."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>>>>>>>Michael Colgan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe you to have mastered the MFW skills of bull**** and waffle,
>>>>>>practiced by a number of our resident gurus, using the high art of
>>>>>>convenience semantics which enables one to make a case for whatever it
>>>>>>is one wishes to prove or disprove.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Welcome to the club!! ;o)
>>>>>
>>>>>John, I wasn'y responding to, or taking sides in, your squabble over
>>>>>semantics. I'm not even sure how you or your "chums" are describing
>>>>>eccentric contractions.
>>>>>
>>>>>I simply used literature to describe eccentric contractions.
>>>>
>>>>Which was absolutely spot on, and I'm just skylarking!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>>The 'secret' of my "squabble" with my "chums" is contained in the
>>>>dictionary definition that describes "shortening" as synonymous with
>>>>"contracting"!! ;o)
>>>
>>>Would this squabble (defined as a petty quarrel) be resolved if you
>>>and your debating partners used the phrases contractile muscle tissue
>>>and/or eccentric muscle actions when describing what happens when a
>>>muscle lengthens or shortens under load? During eccentric muscle
>>>actions, the muscle lengthens under load and becomes smaller in
>>>cross-sectional area. Thus, the force per square inch across the
>>>muscle progressively increases.
>>
>>right. contractile muscle tissue. under load. shortens or lengthens.
>>and its sarcoplasmic, not myofibrillar in this case, right?
>
>I'll wager a dime that since you've spelled myofibrillar and
>sarcoplasmic correctly that you're fishing for a humorous, incorrect
>answer.
>
>Sarcoplasmic (non-functional) hypertrophy is an increase in the
>non-contractile elements of a muscle fiber.
>(Chrisitan Thibaudeau, The Black Book of Training Secrets)
>
>Muscles are made of bundles of muscle fibers called fasciculi. Each
>fasciculi is made of about 1000 microscopic filaments called
>myofibrils. Each myofibril is a chain of sub-microscopic segments
>called sarcomeres which shorten or lengthen to make the muscle work.
>When a muscle lengthens under load, the sarcomeres do not lengthen
>uniformly. Consequently, some parts of the myofibril, and other
>myofibrils adjacent and attached to it, are stressed more than others.
>Some sarcomeres fail under the strain and signal your brain to re-grow
>them stronger. Myofibrillar damage that occurs under heavy eccentric
>load is the major way in which the contractile fibers of your muscles
>increase their strength.
>(The New Power Program: New Protocols for Maximum Strength by Dr.
>Michael Colgan)
>

so it's myofibrillar? cool!