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Pongo
November 22nd 04, 12:59 AM
I found out it's a common belief in PL world that to have maximum
strength one must stay at a medium-high bodyfat percentage (at least
16-18%).

I was wondering if there is any known physiological reason for that or
if it's just a matter of training priorities (i.e. powerlifters do not
want to slow down their strength gains following a low-caloric diet or
intensive aerobic training).

Thanks in advance.

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Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 01:27 AM
Pongo wrote:

> I found out it's a common belief in PL world that to have maximum
> strength one must stay at a medium-high bodyfat percentage (at least
> 16-18%).

The lighter weight competitors sure as **** disprove this.
Or call it into question anyhow. Just as in Ol, some of those lighter
PL's are damn lean.

Lyle

Pongo
November 22nd 04, 01:53 AM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

>> I found out it's a common belief in PL world that to have maximum
>> strength one must stay at a medium-high bodyfat percentage (at least
>> 16-18%).
>
>
> The lighter weight competitors sure as **** disprove this.
> Or call it into question anyhow. Just as in Ol, some of those lighter
> PL's are damn lean.

So IYO it's just a false myth, so it's possible for an athlete to be
lean and strong? Of course, I'm not talking about during the ''ripping''
process but after, when one goes back to his usual nutrition, can he
regain his full strength without the fat?

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Keith Hobman
November 22nd 04, 02:30 AM
In article >, Pongo > wrote:

> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
> >> I found out it's a common belief in PL world that to have maximum
> >> strength one must stay at a medium-high bodyfat percentage (at least
> >> 16-18%).
> >
> >
> > The lighter weight competitors sure as **** disprove this.
> > Or call it into question anyhow. Just as in Ol, some of those lighter
> > PL's are damn lean.
>
> So IYO it's just a false myth, so it's possible for an athlete to be
> lean and strong? Of course, I'm not talking about during the ''ripping''
> process but after, when one goes back to his usual nutrition, can he
> regain his full strength without the fat?

They don't 'rip'. They are always lean. So it isn't a question of usual
nutrition. They may cut some weight immediately prior to a contest, but
they don't rip like a bodybuilder.

Pongo
November 22nd 04, 02:43 AM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> They don't 'rip'. They are always lean. So it isn't a question of usual
> nutrition. They may cut some weight immediately prior to a contest, but
> they don't rip like a bodybuilder.

I know they usually don't, but what if a powerlifter with a high bodyfat
percentage wants to lower it? I mean, it could be to switch to a lower
weight category, or because he is forced to for medical reasons... When
he is in the process of losing weight, I think he will experience a
strength loss, but can he count on having his strength back when he
reaches his target %fat?

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Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:05 AM
Pongo wrote:
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>> They don't 'rip'. They are always lean. So it isn't a question of usual
>> nutrition. They may cut some weight immediately prior to a contest, but
>> they don't rip like a bodybuilder.
>
>
> I know they usually don't, but what if a powerlifter with a high bodyfat
> percentage wants to lower it? I mean, it could be to switch to a lower
> weight category, or because he is forced to for medical reasons... When
> he is in the process of losing weight, I think he will experience a
> strength loss, but can he count on having his strength back when he
> reaches his target %fat?

Just depends on how quickly he tries to drop weight and how lean he
wants to get. For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get
super lean (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower,
strength.

But someone who is super fat ass can probably drop a good bit of fat
(and possibly a weight class) without compromising too much strength.
And once they back to maintenance calories, I'd certainly expect some
regain of strength.

Lyle

Keith Hobman
November 22nd 04, 04:12 AM
In article >, Pongo > wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > They don't 'rip'. They are always lean. So it isn't a question of usual
> > nutrition. They may cut some weight immediately prior to a contest, but
> > they don't rip like a bodybuilder.
>
> I know they usually don't, but what if a powerlifter with a high bodyfat
> percentage wants to lower it? I mean, it could be to switch to a lower
> weight category, or because he is forced to for medical reasons... When
> he is in the process of losing weight, I think he will experience a
> strength loss, but can he count on having his strength back when he
> reaches his target %fat?

Depends ($ to Lyle).

How much muscle he/she lost. How much fat loss - some heavier lifters use
the fat as a rebound type of system in the squat. As a general rule you
lose a lot in the squat, some in the bench and virtually nothing in the
deadlift dropping a weigh class.

Pongo
November 22nd 04, 07:55 AM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get
> super lean (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower,
> strength.

This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just happens
and no one knows why?

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Pongo
November 22nd 04, 08:04 AM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> As a general rule you
> lose a lot in the squat, some in the bench and virtually nothing in the
> deadlift dropping a weigh class.

Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead'' weight
(I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in lifting) on his
own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what...

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spodosaurus
November 22nd 04, 09:52 AM
Pongo wrote:
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>> As a general rule you
>> lose a lot in the squat, some in the bench and virtually nothing in the
>> deadlift dropping a weigh class.
>
>
> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead'' weight
> (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in lifting) on his
> own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what...
>

When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
you're chemically assisted). Does that help clear things up?

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Pongo
November 22nd 04, 10:04 AM
spodosaurus wrote:

>> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
>> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
>> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead''
>> weight (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in
>> lifting) on his own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I
>> don't know what...
>
> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
> you're chemically assisted). Does that help clear things up?

It seems a good explanation at first, but it doesn't explain why losing
weight one loses a lot in the squat, some in the bench and nothing in
deadlift. If the reason was muscles going away with fat, I think all
three lifts should be influenced almost equally, and this is not the
case according to Keith.

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Kevin J. Coolidge
November 22nd 04, 01:45 PM
"Pongo" > wrote in message
...
> spodosaurus wrote:
>
>>> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
>>> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
>>> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead'' weight
>>> (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in lifting) on his
>>> own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what...
>>
>> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
>> you're chemically assisted). Does that help clear things up?
>
> It seems a good explanation at first, but it doesn't explain why losing
> weight one loses a lot in the squat, some in the bench and nothing in
> deadlift. If the reason was muscles going away with fat, I think all three
> lifts should be influenced almost equally, and this is not the case
> according to Keith.
>
> --
> Pongo
>
> --
>
> GIGAMAIL By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/gigamail.php

I have read that body fat percentages for men under 6 percent leads to a
decrease in hormone-such as testerone. Lowers the immune system, and
increases chance for bruising, due to the fact that fat cushions. I've read
there is no advantage for sports to be under 6%, excpet bodybuilding and
well that's not a sport.

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:25 PM
Pongo wrote:
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
>> For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get super lean
>> (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower, strength.
>
>
> This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
> mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
> 5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just happens
> and no one knows why?

Yes, there is a known physiological reason for it which is that the body
shuts down when you try to lean it out far below where it wants to be.
Hormones go to hell, testosterone drops, cortisol goes way up, etc.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:25 PM
Pongo wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>> As a general rule you
>> lose a lot in the squat, some in the bench and virtually nothing in the
>> deadlift dropping a weigh class.
>
>
> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead'' weight
> (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in lifting) on his
> own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what...

You are missing the ability to read, Keith answered you clearly in the
part that you carefully snipped out.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:25 PM
spodosaurus wrote:

> Pongo wrote:
>
>> Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>> As a general rule you
>>> lose a lot in the squat, some in the bench and virtually nothing in the
>>> deadlift dropping a weigh class.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
>> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
>> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead''
>> weight (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in
>> lifting) on his own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I
>> don't know what...
>>
>
> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
> you're chemically assisted).

The people using my UD2 would tell you that is incorrect.
Because it is.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:26 PM
Pongo wrote:

> spodosaurus wrote:
>
>>> Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
>>> shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
>>> more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead''
>>> weight (I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in
>>> lifting) on his own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I
>>> don't know what...
>>
>>
>> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
>> you're chemically assisted). Does that help clear things up?
>
>
> It seems a good explanation at first, but it doesn't explain why losing
> weight one loses a lot in the squat, some in the bench and nothing in
> deadlift. If the reason was muscles going away with fat, I think all
> three lifts should be influenced almost equally, and this is not the
> case according to Keith.

Read what he wrote again, Keith ansewred you clearly.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 03:27 PM
Kevin J. Coolidge wrote:

> "Pongo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>spodosaurus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Thanks but... This seems really strange to me: having less bodyfat
>>>>shouldn't be an advantage in squatting? In theory, one could put even
>>>>more weight on the bar than before, because he has less ''dead'' weight
>>>>(I mean weight that is not muscle, so it doesn't help in lifting) on his
>>>>own to squat... I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what...
>>>
>>>When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
>>>you're chemically assisted). Does that help clear things up?
>>
>>It seems a good explanation at first, but it doesn't explain why losing
>>weight one loses a lot in the squat, some in the bench and nothing in
>>deadlift. If the reason was muscles going away with fat, I think all three
>>lifts should be influenced almost equally, and this is not the case
>>according to Keith.
>>
>>--
>>Pongo
>>
>>--
>>
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>
>
> I have read that body fat percentages for men under 6 percent leads to a
> decrease in hormone-such as testerone.

You can't really draw some line in the sand. The system gets into
progressively bigger problems the leaner you get (relative to where your
body wants to be). So it isn't as if things just crash at 6%, they are
progresively getting worse. As well, people are affected differently.

But for the average non-geneicall lean individual, problems can start to
occur anywhere from 12-15% bodyfat and down.

Lyle

Pongo
November 22nd 04, 03:38 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

>> This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
>> mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
>> 5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just
>> happens and no one knows why?
>
> Yes, there is a known physiological reason for it which is that the body
> shuts down when you try to lean it out far below where it wants to be.
> Hormones go to hell, testosterone drops, cortisol goes way up, etc.

So it's a matter of hormones... the body ''wants'' to stay at its
natural %fat and if I push it lower it will not work the way it's
supposed to.
Thank you for the answers.

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Pongo
November 22nd 04, 03:45 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> some heavier lifters use
> the fat as a rebound type of system in the squat.

I'm still trying to figure how this can be done, but I guess you are
talking abut very high %fat... do they use their ass as a swiss ball? :-)

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John Hanson
November 22nd 04, 04:03 PM
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:25:18 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>Pongo wrote:
>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>
>>> For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get super lean
>>> (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower, strength.
>>
>>
>> This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
>> mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
>> 5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just happens
>> and no one knows why?
>
>Yes, there is a known physiological reason for it which is that the body
>shuts down when you try to lean it out far below where it wants to be.
> Hormones go to hell, testosterone drops, cortisol goes way up, etc.
>
Doesn't it also have to do with the muscle fibers being interlaced
with fat which allow them to contract harder?

Keith Hobman
November 22nd 04, 06:04 PM
In article >, Pongo > wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > some heavier lifters use
> > the fat as a rebound type of system in the squat.
>
> I'm still trying to figure how this can be done, but I guess you are
> talking abut very high %fat... do they use their ass as a swiss ball? :-)

Nope - in the squat there is a lot of rebound with a heavier lifter of the
gut off the thighs. So much so that some lifters have trouble breaking
parallel.

There is also some sort of effect with smaller intra-muscular deposits of
fat. So even in a relatively small lifter fat seems to have some effect on
rebound strength.

If you look pragmatically at powerlifters - if you go up a weight class
relatively quickly the squat and bench go up - deadlift doesn't. Opposite
for going down. I suspect the tight supportive gear enhances this effect
as well, but that is just speculation on my part.

Lee Michaels
November 22nd 04, 08:46 PM
> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:25:59 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
> >>
> >> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
> >> you're chemically assisted).
> >
> >The people using my UD2 would tell you that is incorrect.
> >Because it is.
>
> What is UD2?? When you get to very low body fat percentage, muscle
> loss is pretty much inevitable is you continue to remain in a
> catabolic state. The leaner you are the more muscle you lose.
>
> If there are controlled studies that indicate that "UD2" prevents
> muscle loss at very low body fat percentage I would be very interested
> in the citations. If it is anecdotal then I would be skeptical.
> Anecdotes and testimonial evidence often ends up being bogus.
>
> Paul
>

Look here.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

UD2 is one of the products/programs offered by our residernt endurance
weenie/skater, Lyle.

This is a group of folks who are actually doing this. To you this may be
bogus. But the folks who are actually getting these results think you are a
moron.

00doc
November 22nd 04, 11:47 PM
John Hanson > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:25:18 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >Pongo wrote:
> >> Lyle McDonald wrote:
> >>
> >>> For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get super lean
> >>> (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower, strength.
> >>
> >>
> >> This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
> >> mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
> >> 5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just happens
> >> and no one knows why?
> >
> >Yes, there is a known physiological reason for it which is that the body
> >shuts down when you try to lean it out far below where it wants to be.
> > Hormones go to hell, testosterone drops, cortisol goes way up, etc.
> >
> Doesn't it also have to do with the muscle fibers being interlaced
> with fat which allow them to contract harder?

It is not that the fibers are interlaced with fat.

In the bench press some people think that having bigger pecs/delts
etc. - even if part of the size is just fat - gives more advantageous
lever angles of the tendons. The more you bring the tendon out the
more perpendicular to the bone it is.

In the squat I guess you could apply the same logic to the
quads/gluts/hams but there is also an added dimension (no pun intended
- put left in anyway) of having a wider girth providing extra
stability.

Personally, I think it just has to do with the metabolic issues
already raised.

A big gut does get in the way of proper mechanics in the deadlift so
it is not uncommon for big guys to have great squats and benches but
lousy DL's and sometimes guys actually improve when they lose the gut.

--
00doc

aj
November 23rd 04, 04:06 AM
On 2004-11-23, > wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:46:41 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:25:59 -0700, Lyle McDonald
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> When you diet to lower bodyfat you inevitably lose muscle, too (unless
>>> >> you're chemically assisted).
>>> >
>>> >The people using my UD2 would tell you that is incorrect.
>>> >Because it is.
>>>
>>> What is UD2?? When you get to very low body fat percentage, muscle
>>> loss is pretty much inevitable is you continue to remain in a
>>> catabolic state. The leaner you are the more muscle you lose.
>>>
>>> If there are controlled studies that indicate that "UD2" prevents
>>> muscle loss at very low body fat percentage I would be very interested
>>> in the citations. If it is anecdotal then I would be skeptical.
>>> Anecdotes and testimonial evidence often ends up being bogus.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>>Look here.
>>
>>http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/
>
> Thanx for the link. I could not find any studies suggesting that this
> protocol will completely eliminate muscle loss especially when body
> fat percentage is very low. I did see lots of anecdotes and
> testimonials.
>
>>UD2 is one of the products/programs offered by our residernt endurance
>>weenie/skater, Lyle.
>
> I see. $o he has a financial interest in promoting this particular
> diet.
>>
>>This is a group of folks who are actually doing this. To you this may be
>>bogus.
>
> It *may* be bogus period. Just because someone thinks something works
> does not mean it is not bogus. After all there are thousands of people
> who think that high dilution homeopathic remedies actually work to
> cure illnesses.
>
>
>> But the folks who are actually getting these results think you are a
>>moron.
>
> I don't doubt that you are correct. Those who believe in homeopathy
> also likely think I am a moron. When anyone calls me a moron I always
> consider the source. I have found that often those who call others
> morons are the morons themselves.
>
>
> Paul

Here's what you got right:

UD2 hasn't been tested under the accepted and perfectly reasonable
methods you mentioned.

Lyle does have a financial stake in promoting UD2.

You are perfectly right to question this ****.

Here's what you missed:

Lyle has spent so many hours and trashing bull****, doing
people's ****ing homework, and dropping more excercise physio
knowledge on everyone on this newgroup and beyond FOR FREE that
he has more credibility than you might be able to imagine.

This is augmented by his usually being right, admiting when he's
wrong or being speculative, and encouraging others to do their
homework.

UD2, should you bother to buy the book (or just look real hard for
it) lays out its reasoning for its claims, and they're within the
realm of possiblilty, given my admittedly limited grasp of this
matter.

UD2 is by no means a free ride, and I would have to hate life
before I ever subjected myself to that kind of training.


Well, **** me. That was waaaay too flanky. I feel dirty.

--
-aj

Lucas Buck
November 26th 04, 10:40 PM
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:03:57 -0600, John Hanson >
wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:25:18 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>Pongo wrote:
>>> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>>> For someone who isn't super naturally lean, trying to get super lean
>>>> (even sub 10% for men) may really compromise, if not lower, strength.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is the point I really do not understand: why does this happen? I
>>> mean, why a lifter at 10% bodyfat is stronger than the same lifter at
>>> 5%? Is there a known (physiological) reason for this, or it just happens
>>> and no one knows why?
>>
>>Yes, there is a known physiological reason for it which is that the body
>>shuts down when you try to lean it out far below where it wants to be.
>> Hormones go to hell, testosterone drops, cortisol goes way up, etc.
>>
>Doesn't it also have to do with the muscle fibers being interlaced
>with fat which allow them to contract harder?

<Homer voice>
mmmmmmm, marbling...
</Homer voice>