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Lurker
November 22nd 04, 11:12 PM
I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?

TIA,

Lurker
--

Lyle McDonald
November 22nd 04, 11:22 PM
Lurker wrote:

> I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
> What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?

Strategic deconditioning, basically planned detraining in an attempt to
let some of the adaptations that serve to limit muscle growth go away.

Lyle

aj
November 22nd 04, 11:28 PM
On 2004-11-22, Lurker > wrote:
> I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
> What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?
>
> TIA,
>
> Lurker

Strategic Deconditioning. That thar's fancy talk for "take a damn break
bozo." The name seems geared towards convincing training happy
muscleheads to thing they're doing "something" when the protocol tells
them to do nothing for a week or so.

What are you doing? "I'm strategically deconditioning. I tried a
tactical decondition, but this is much broader in scope and involves
loftier concepts."

I always liked "active rest".

--
-aj

Lurker
November 22nd 04, 11:41 PM
Lyle McDonald wrote:

> Lurker wrote:
>
>> I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
>> What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?
>
>
> Strategic deconditioning, basically planned detraining in an attempt to
> let some of the adaptations that serve to limit muscle growth go away.
>
> Lyle
>

Thanks,

What are your thoughts on attempting HST while trying to reduce one's bf%?

I realize that on a surface level they are counter productive to one
another. But say in the instance of someone like me who is 300lb 30%bf.

I don't really need to gain any lbm to hit my goal of 14% at 245lbs, but
wouldn't mind gaining some muscle while working my way there either.
More muscle would lower the amount of fat I would have to lose in order
to hit 14%. Then I could rethink my goals to a possibly higher endning
weight or lower bf% knowing that I would lose an amount of the newly
built muscle.

Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a weight
loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to lose the fat.

Lurker
--

Bob MacWilliam
November 23rd 04, 04:41 PM
Lurker > wrote in message >...
> Lyle McDonald wrote:
>
> > Lurker wrote:
> >
> >> I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
> >> What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?
> >
> >
> > Strategic deconditioning, basically planned detraining in an attempt to
> > let some of the adaptations that serve to limit muscle growth go away.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
>
> Thanks,
>
> What are your thoughts on attempting HST while trying to reduce one's bf%?
>
> I realize that on a surface level they are counter productive to one
> another. But say in the instance of someone like me who is 300lb 30%bf.
>
> I don't really need to gain any lbm to hit my goal of 14% at 245lbs, but
> wouldn't mind gaining some muscle while working my way there either.
> More muscle would lower the amount of fat I would have to lose in order
> to hit 14%. Then I could rethink my goals to a possibly higher endning
> weight or lower bf% knowing that I would lose an amount of the newly
> built muscle.
>
> Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a weight
> loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to lose the fat.
>
> Lurker
> --

For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
dieting?

Bob

Dally
November 23rd 04, 05:37 PM
Bully wrote:

> Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>
>>Lurker > wrote in message

>>>Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>lose the fat.

>>For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>dieting?

> ...and did it?

It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
recomposition problem is really a bitch!)

I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
doing it again this winter.

By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.

Dally

John HUDSON
November 23rd 04, 06:31 PM
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:37:55 -0500, Dally > wrote:

>Bully wrote:
>
>> Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>>
>>>Lurker > wrote in message
>
>>>>Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>>weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>>lose the fat.
>
>>>For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>>is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>>it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>>dieting?
>
>> ...and did it?
>
>It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
>months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
>muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
>is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
>recomposition problem is really a bitch!)
>
>I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
>maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
>doing it again this winter.
>
>By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
>concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
>keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
>to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
>person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
>based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
>I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
>target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
>point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.

Unfortunately, as the weight decreases, so too does the metabolism, so
that when you eventually reach your target weight, the calorie intake
to maintain bodyweight/LBM/BF% will be unpleasantly low.

Unless you are extremely well disciplined, and I have no reason to
think otherwise, you risk a future of constant yo-you dieting if you
want to enjoy any sort of quality of life.

This is why I enjoy my weekends so much, and why I am so strict during
the week. Despite all that I still have to go on an annual bant every
New Year until I get rid of the excess BF% accrued!! ;o(

Lurker
November 23rd 04, 10:12 PM
John HUDSON wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:37:55 -0500, Dally > wrote:
>
>
>>Bully wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lurker > wrote in message
>>
>>>>>Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>>>weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>>>lose the fat.
>>
>>>>For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>>>is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>>>it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>>>dieting?
>>
>>>...and did it?
>>
>>It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
>>months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
>>muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
>>is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
>>recomposition problem is really a bitch!)
>>
>>I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
>>maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
>>doing it again this winter.
>>
>>By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
>>concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
>>keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
>>to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
>>person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
>>based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
>>I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
>>target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
>>point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.
>
>
> Unfortunately, as the weight decreases, so too does the metabolism, so
> that when you eventually reach your target weight, the calorie intake
> to maintain bodyweight/LBM/BF% will be unpleasantly low.

Wouldn't mine actually be going up slightly until the newbie gains are
over with. I lost visible size in fatty areas of my body in the first
six weeks while gaining ten scale pounds.

>
> Unless you are extremely well disciplined, and I have no reason to
> think otherwise, you risk a future of constant yo-you dieting if you
> want to enjoy any sort of quality of life.

Got home from the gym the other night and my dear wife, the &#[email protected], was
eating a bowl of ice cream with melted hersey's dark chocolate.

I had a cup of non fat plain yogurt with frozen non sweetened berries,
almonds, and splenda. It was actually quite enjoyable.

>
> This is why I enjoy my weekends so much, and why I am so strict during
> the week. Despite all that I still have to go on an annual bant every
> New Year until I get rid of the excess BF% accrued!! ;o(


Sounds a bit familiar. I am at work from 6 am to 5 pm with only a half
an hour for lunch. So I get everything for the week ready on Sunday
night and don't eat anything during the week that I didn't take to work
with me.

I allow myself to eat something on either Friday or Saturday that may
not be in the same neighborhood as boneless skinless chicken breasts
with brown rice and brocolli. But at my current goal of .7 lbs of body
fat a week loss I do enough cardio and weight training to make goal
without the strict dieting the rest of the week.

Oh, and I gave up all soda and caffine about 10 days before going back
to working out too.

Gawd I miss coffee. Thank you for your input it is appreciated.

Lurker

Lurker
November 23rd 04, 10:13 PM
Dally wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>
>> Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>>
>>> Lurker > wrote in message
>
>
>>>> Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>> weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>> lose the fat.
>
>
>>> For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>> is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>> it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>> dieting?
>
>
>> ...and did it?
>
>
> It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
> months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
> muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
> is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
> recomposition problem is really a bitch!)
>
> I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
> maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
> doing it again this winter.
>
> By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
> concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
> keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
> to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
> person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
> based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
> I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
> target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
> point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.
>
> Dally
>
>
>
>

I appreciate your input. Especially concerning the fact that it worked
well for you during an extremely long cutting phase.

I must, however, respectfully disagree with you concerning your opinion
of my goal. If I do not put some sort of finish line on my quest for fat
loss then motivation becomes a factor for me. In fact 75 weeks is giving
myself almost an extra 30% of what it should take to remove the 55lbs of
fat at 1lb/week. I did this on purpose in order to give myself extra
time to adjust to the adjustments in metabolism that my body is going to
go through as its scale weight decreases, and account for any other
problems that may arise or stall my progress.

"Nothing changes once you get the fat off" I am sorry but I feel that I
have to disagree with this as well. Once the fat is off the drive and
direction should change. In my case I will most likely change my goals
slightly before this point to include such things as poundages in
certain lifts and body measurements. I will also change from a longtime
goal of cutting body fat to numerous short term goals that pendulate
between cutting body fat and gaining lean body mass. No I won't be able
to start eating the way I did to get in this situation, or become
sedentary again. Things definately will change though.

I also am not dead set on 245lbs/15%. It is a starting long term goal. I
may change it to be 253lbs/15%, or 264/15%, or 276/15% or... you get the
picture. The 15% is a starting goal, as is the 245lbs. It will most
likely be adjusted or forgotten based on how much muscle I am able to
gain and keep, and ultimately how I feel about the way I look. BTW the
15% of 245=my current lbm at 300lbs. 30% so I am SURE that that goal
will change. At least the ending weight part of it.

So far in my 6~7 weekks of "getting back at it" I have lost visible body
fat in my neck and waist, but gained ten pounds on the scale. It will be
interesting to see what the next set of measurements/calipering says in
ten weeks.

I have two reasons for wanting to take a go at HST. One, I work with
some pretty pathetic weights in some lifts. Two, I am past the getting
back into it stage and want to follow a proven plan in the gym rather
then going and wasting my time following my own ideas.

Thank you for your input it is appreciated.

Lurker

John HUDSON
November 24th 04, 12:05 AM
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:12:57 -0800, Lurker
> wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:37:55 -0500, Dally > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bully wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lurker > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>>Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>>>>weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>>>>lose the fat.
>>>
>>>>>For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>>>>is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>>>>it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>>>>dieting?
>>>
>>>>...and did it?
>>>
>>>It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
>>>months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
>>>muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
>>>is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
>>>recomposition problem is really a bitch!)
>>>
>>>I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
>>>maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
>>>doing it again this winter.
>>>
>>>By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
>>>concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
>>>keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
>>>to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
>>>person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
>>>based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
>>>I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
>>>target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
>>>point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, as the weight decreases, so too does the metabolism, so
>> that when you eventually reach your target weight, the calorie intake
>> to maintain bodyweight/LBM/BF% will be unpleasantly low.
>
>Wouldn't mine actually be going up slightly until the newbie gains are
>over with. I lost visible size in fatty areas of my body in the first
>six weeks while gaining ten scale pounds.

I was actually projecting forward to when the target has been
successfully achieved. The nightmare then is to maintain and not to
start increasing body fat levels.

I have been doing it for years and have not lost any noticeable amount
of LBM.

>
>>
>> Unless you are extremely well disciplined, and I have no reason to
>> think otherwise, you risk a future of constant yo-you dieting if you
>> want to enjoy any sort of quality of life.
>
>Got home from the gym the other night and my dear wife, the &#[email protected], was
>eating a bowl of ice cream with melted hersey's dark chocolate.
>
>I had a cup of non fat plain yogurt with frozen non sweetened berries,
>almonds, and splenda. It was actually quite enjoyable.
>
>>
>> This is why I enjoy my weekends so much, and why I am so strict during
>> the week. Despite all that I still have to go on an annual bant every
>> New Year until I get rid of the excess BF% accrued!! ;o(
>
>
>Sounds a bit familiar. I am at work from 6 am to 5 pm with only a half
>an hour for lunch. So I get everything for the week ready on Sunday
>night and don't eat anything during the week that I didn't take to work
>with me.
>
>I allow myself to eat something on either Friday or Saturday that may
>not be in the same neighborhood as boneless skinless chicken breasts
>with brown rice and brocolli. But at my current goal of .7 lbs of body
>fat a week loss I do enough cardio and weight training to make goal
>without the strict dieting the rest of the week.

That is a modest enough weekly loss and should be achievable without
too drastic a drop in calorie intake.

>
>Oh, and I gave up all soda and caffeine about 10 days before going back
>to working out too.

I still enjoy diet coke during the week and wouldn't miss my after
lunch and after dinner coffee for any reason. There are some things
that are sacred, and no decaffeinated for me!! It doesn't appear to
make much difference to my strict weight control programme.

>
>Gawd I miss coffee. Thank you for your input it is appreciated.

Drink a couple of cups a day Lurker, there has to be something to look
forward to!! ;o)

Lurker
November 24th 04, 12:19 AM
John HUDSON wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:12:57 -0800, Lurker
> > wrote:
>
>
>>John HUDSON wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:37:55 -0500, Dally > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bully wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Bob MacWilliam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Lurker > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>>>Anywho, can HST, in your opinion, be used with success during a
>>>>>>>weight loss regimen? Right now I am scheduling about 75 weeks to
>>>>>>>lose the fat.
>>>>
>>>>>>For sure. I have used HST for BB contest prep. The basic reasoning
>>>>>>is if HST can build the muscle mass in the first place, why wouldn't
>>>>>>it be anything but extremely effective in preserving it during
>>>>>>dieting?
>>>>
>>>>>...and did it?
>>>>
>>>>It certainly worked for me. I've been losing fat steadily for about 27
>>>>months now. During the blissful newbie period I was able to build
>>>>muscle while catabolic, but those days are long gone. Now the struggle
>>>>is to partition the weight loss mostly to fat loss. (This whole body
>>>>recomposition problem is really a bitch!)
>>>>
>>>>I keep pretty good records and found that I had the most success in
>>>>maintaining LBM with the HST routine I did last winter. I'm thinking of
>>>>doing it again this winter.
>>>>
>>>>By the way, your "75 weeks to lose the fat" is maybe not the best
>>>>concept to hold in your head. How about "75 years to lose the fat and
>>>>keep it off". Nothing changes once you get the fat off, you still have
>>>>to eat and move like a slender person or you'll stop being a slender
>>>>person. Furthermore, goals are incredibly hard to reach when they're
>>>>based on body fat percentages. Everytime I reach a goal weight I find
>>>>I've lost some LBM and my goal weight is still lower. It's a moving
>>>>target and I don't know if/when I'll ever reach it. I suspect that the
>>>>point is not to REACH the goal, but to continue to have goals.
>>>
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, as the weight decreases, so too does the metabolism, so
>>>that when you eventually reach your target weight, the calorie intake
>>>to maintain bodyweight/LBM/BF% will be unpleasantly low.
>>
>>Wouldn't mine actually be going up slightly until the newbie gains are
>>over with. I lost visible size in fatty areas of my body in the first
>>six weeks while gaining ten scale pounds.
>
>
> I was actually projecting forward to when the target has been
> successfully achieved. The nightmare then is to maintain and not to
> start increasing body fat levels.
>
> I have been doing it for years and have not lost any noticeable amount
> of LBM.
>
>
>>>Unless you are extremely well disciplined, and I have no reason to
>>>think otherwise, you risk a future of constant yo-you dieting if you
>>>want to enjoy any sort of quality of life.
>>
>>Got home from the gym the other night and my dear wife, the &#[email protected], was
>>eating a bowl of ice cream with melted hersey's dark chocolate.
>>
>>I had a cup of non fat plain yogurt with frozen non sweetened berries,
>>almonds, and splenda. It was actually quite enjoyable.
>>
>>
>>>This is why I enjoy my weekends so much, and why I am so strict during
>>>the week. Despite all that I still have to go on an annual bant every
>>>New Year until I get rid of the excess BF% accrued!! ;o(
>>
>>
>>Sounds a bit familiar. I am at work from 6 am to 5 pm with only a half
>>an hour for lunch. So I get everything for the week ready on Sunday
>>night and don't eat anything during the week that I didn't take to work
>>with me.
>>
>>I allow myself to eat something on either Friday or Saturday that may
>>not be in the same neighborhood as boneless skinless chicken breasts
>>with brown rice and brocolli. But at my current goal of .7 lbs of body
>>fat a week loss I do enough cardio and weight training to make goal
>>without the strict dieting the rest of the week.
>
>
> That is a modest enough weekly loss and should be achievable without
> too drastic a drop in calorie intake.
>
I am currently eating between 10x and 11x bw. So somewhere between 3000
and 3300 kcals a day. I want to do this slowly and as painlessly as
possible so that it is more likely to become a learned lifestyle rather
then a slim period in my life.
>
>>Oh, and I gave up all soda and caffeine about 10 days before going back
>>to working out too.
>
>
> I still enjoy diet coke during the week and wouldn't miss my after
> lunch and after dinner coffee for any reason. There are some things
> that are sacred, and no decaffeinated for me!! It doesn't appear to
> make much difference to my strict weight control programme.

I am also working on some minor, but disrupting none the less, sleep
problems. I seem to have a lot less trouble waking up in the morning
when I abstane from caffine. So I let it go. Didn't miss it after about
a half a week. And no decaf. for me either. It is like ordering a virgin
Margarita or something. Just doesn't make any sense.

>
>
>>Gawd I miss coffee. Thank you for your input it is appreciated.
>
>
> Drink a couple of cups a day Lurker, there has to be something to look
> forward to!! ;o)

I look forward to seeing my son at the end of every day. And to the
couple of pints of stout every weekend. That seems to hold me.


Lurker
--
Miracle of Medicine
http://jamesrobert.us

Dally
November 24th 04, 06:25 PM
aj wrote:
> On 2004-11-22, Lurker > wrote:
>
>>I was doing a little reading at my last break and was pressed for time.
>>What does "SD" stand for in the 9th and 10th weeks of HST?
>>
>>TIA,
>>
>>Lurker
>
>
> Strategic Deconditioning. That thar's fancy talk for "take a damn break
> bozo." The name seems geared towards convincing training happy
> muscleheads to thing they're doing "something" when the protocol tells
> them to do nothing for a week or so.
>
> What are you doing? "I'm strategically deconditioning. I tried a
> tactical decondition, but this is much broader in scope and involves
> loftier concepts."

Exactly. Each April for the past several years I've gone on a Caribbean
cruise. I refer to that as "strategic deconditioning", too.

> I always liked "active rest".

What's not to like about it. :-)

By the way, I refer to the child-bearing years in which I got obese as
my "bulking cycle.". Sort of a feature, not a bug, eh?

Dally