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pil
November 28th 04, 12:17 PM
I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have fat.
this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that fat
off in a about one month. How should I change my diet to do this and what
cardio exercise will work the best for this?

I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef, yoghurt..
I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only sugar I take is
from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I cut out?

Tony
November 28th 04, 02:50 PM
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:17:17 +0200, "pil" > wrote:

>I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have fat.

It's everywhere. Assuming you're guy, It (probably) goes to your belly
first. That's the last place it'll come off of. Although for a while
you'll lose it everywhere and as you get lean, (if you last that long)
the belly will be the last and most difficult to get rid of.

>this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that fat
>off in a about one month. How should I change my diet to do this and what
>cardio exercise will work the best for this?

A month is unrealistic. It'll take a week or two to see any fat loss if
even that quick. You should aim for small, gradual fat loss to avoid
muscle loss and you'll feel like **** & quit if you cut too deep too
fast.

>I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef, yoghurt..
>I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only sugar I take is
>from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I cut out?

None. Cutting out sugary foods is a good start.
You simply need to eat fewer calories than you use daily. What you eat
becomes more important when there's less to eat. Just eat less and
continue to exercise by lifting weights predominately and 20-30 minutes
cardio 2-3 days / week if you need it. I don't usually start cardio
until the last 4 weeks or so.
Start at 12 - 10x your bodyweight (start at 12x). Eventually, your fat
loss will slow or stop. THEN either add a little more cardio or drop
calories a little at a time as needed.

Stray Mp3 Poster
November 28th 04, 06:52 PM
"pil" > wrote in :

> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
> fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to
> burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I change my diet to
> do this and what cardio exercise will work the best for this?
>
> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
> yoghurt.. I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only
> sugar I take is from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I
> cut out?
>
>
>
>

Since when do bread and yogurt NOT have sugar in them???

Per Elmsäter
November 28th 04, 07:21 PM
Stray Mp3 Poster wrote:
> "pil" > wrote in
> :
>
>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>> fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to
>> burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>> to do this and what cardio exercise will work the best for this?
>>
>> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
>> yoghurt.. I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only
>> sugar I take is from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I
>> cut out?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Since when do bread and yogurt NOT have sugar in them???

Cane Sugar? None of the bread or yoghurt I buy do.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

John M. Williams
November 28th 04, 07:27 PM
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
>Stray Mp3 Poster wrote:
>> "pil" > wrote in
>>>
>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>>> fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to
>>> burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>>> to do this and what cardio exercise will work the best for this?
>>>
>>> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
>>> yoghurt.. I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only
>>> sugar I take is from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I
>>> cut out?
>>
>> Since when do bread and yogurt NOT have sugar in them???
>
>Cane Sugar? None of the bread or yoghurt I buy do.

Since when is sucrose the only kind of sugar?

Per Elmsäter
November 28th 04, 07:50 PM
John M. Williams wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
>> Stray Mp3 Poster wrote:
>>> "pil" > wrote in
>>>>
>>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I
>>>> have fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would
>>>> like to burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I
>>>> change my diet to do this and what cardio exercise will work the
>>>> best for this?
>>>>
>>>> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
>>>> yoghurt.. I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The
>>>> only sugar I take is from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods
>>>> should I cut out?
>>>
>>> Since when do bread and yogurt NOT have sugar in them???
>>
>> Cane Sugar? None of the bread or yoghurt I buy do.
>
> Since when is sucrose the only kind of sugar?

Well the OP said he'd cut down on cane sugar, which is the part that I
adressed. Ok he thinks that the only sugar he eats is from fruits which of
course is an illusion. But so is his plan on losing his tummy in a month.
LOL
Actually it's so stupid to think so that I strongly suspect this is a troll.
Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as we
all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Lyle McDonald
November 28th 04, 09:03 PM
pil wrote:

> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have fat.
> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that fat
> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet

Eat less than you are now.

Lyle

Jim
November 28th 04, 09:47 PM
"Usenet Posting" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:03:40 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> > wrote:
>
>>pil wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>>> fat.
>>> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that
>>> fat
>>> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>>
>>Eat less than you are now.
>>
>>Lyle
>
> Think you can stretch that into a book?

He already did...gotta love Lyle..he gets fed up with the bull**** and says
"dont even buy my book..just eat less and move more!"

Jim

JonH
November 28th 04, 10:25 PM
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:52 -0500, "Jim" > wrote:

>
>"Usenet Posting" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:03:40 -0700, Lyle McDonald
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>pil wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>>>> fat.
>>>> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that
>>>> fat
>>>> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>>>
>>>Eat less than you are now.
>>>
>>>Lyle
>>
>> Think you can stretch that into a book?
>
>He already did...gotta love Lyle..he gets fed up with the bull**** and says
>"dont even buy my book..just eat less and move more!"
>
>Jim
>
The ELYFF Diet?
Regards
JonH

Art S
November 28th 04, 10:30 PM
"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message ...
> Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as we
> all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.

Weights? What are weights?

Art

Jim
November 28th 04, 10:41 PM
"JonH" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:52 -0500, "Jim" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Usenet Posting" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:03:40 -0700, Lyle McDonald
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>pil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>>>>> fat.
>>>>> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn
>>>>> that
>>>>> fat
>>>>> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>>>>
>>>>Eat less than you are now.
>>>>
>>>>Lyle
>>>
>>> Think you can stretch that into a book?
>>
>>He already did...gotta love Lyle..he gets fed up with the bull**** and
>>says
>>"dont even buy my book..just eat less and move more!"
>>
>>Jim
>>
> The ELYFF Diet?
> Regards
> JonH

For those who are confused. Eat less you fat ****.

Jim

Idie
November 29th 04, 12:53 AM
Jim > wrote in message
...
>
> "Usenet Posting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:03:40 -0700, Lyle McDonald
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>pil wrote:
> >>
> >>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
> >>> fat.
> >>> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn
that
> >>> fat
> >>> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
> >>
> >>Eat less than you are now.
> >>
> >>Lyle
> >
> > Think you can stretch that into a book?
>
> He already did...gotta love Lyle..he gets fed up with the bull**** and
says
> "dont even buy my book..just eat less and move more!"
>
> Jim

lyle does not know from marketing

whit

>
>

Lurker
November 29th 04, 02:52 PM
Art S wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message ...
>
>>Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as we
>>all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.
>
>
> Weights? What are weights?
>
> Art
>
>
Those things everyone is trying to *loose* around their bellies?

--
Lurker

300_30%/???_??%/245_15%
Miracle of Medicine and Faith
http://jamesrobert.us

Lee Michaels
November 29th 04, 02:54 PM
"Lurker" wrote
> Art S wrote:
> > "Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >>Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as
we
> >>all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.
> >
> >
> > Weights? What are weights?
> >
> > Art
> >
> >
> Those things everyone is trying to *loose* around their bellies?
>

Which is done by "toning".

Which, apparently, is some kind of musical process.

AbbyB
November 29th 04, 04:07 PM
Tony > wrote in message >...
> designed as to be injected simultaneously with a
> * vaccination or alone."
> *
> *
> * When government technocrats want Americans to accept the unacceptable,
> * they move slowly. In the case of reaching the ultimate goal of a universal
> * system of personal identification, this introduction is likely to begin
> * with the smartcard, and progress to non-implantable, bio-chips attached to
> * the clothing or worn in bracelets.
> *
> * In Europe, this system has already been used at track and field events
> * where the competitors wear the device attached to their jersey. This
> * provides their coordinates during each event and can be used for the
> * timing of races.
> *
> * Widespread use among sports figures could go a long
> * way toward popularizing the chip among the young.
> *
> * According to microchip researcher Terry Cook, U.S. military recruits are
> * also being introduced to the bracelet, just as Marine recruits at Parris
> * Island helped test the military's Smartcard prototype.
> *
> * Eagle Eye Technologies of Herndon, Virginia is marketing a microchip
> * embedded


cut down on amount of calories. Run couple times a week and do some
crunches. The best results I have seen is weights. This does toning.
Not too much but will definitely make a difference.

Sweet Guy
November 29th 04, 05:15 PM
"Tony" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:17:17 +0200, "pil" > wrote:
>
> >I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have fat.
>
> It's everywhere. Assuming you're guy, It (probably) goes to your belly
> first. That's the last place it'll come off of. Although for a while
> you'll lose it everywhere and as you get lean, (if you last that long)
> the belly will be the last and most difficult to get rid of.

this is the butt-naked assed truth!

i've lost 50+ lbs. since february (04) but still retain a pouch on the lower
abdomen. goddamn.

yes, i have lost much muscle because when i started lifting weights last
year (and before dieting) i made decent gains, yet still had a fairly high
bf %.

if i were to do it all over again (which i am doing) i'd lose weight/cardio
first, then begin pumping iron (i'm shopping for weight rack right now).

tonight after work, i'm gonna try running (about one hour each night) to
help reduce this fat pocket.

> A month is unrealistic. It'll take a week or two to see any fat loss if
> even that quick. You should aim for small, gradual fat loss to avoid
> muscle loss and you'll feel like **** & quit if you cut too deep too
> fast.

the massive weight loss did somewhat enervate me, however my body is looking
very trim and tight.

> >I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
yoghurt..
> >I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only sugar I take
is
> >from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I cut out?

for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).

yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the only
way i'm seeing profound results for myself.

p.s.: although i've loss a ton of weight, i don't believe my penis size was
affected. (no homo)

Lurker
November 29th 04, 05:28 PM
Lee Michaels wrote:

> "Lurker" wrote
>
>>Art S wrote:
>>
>>>"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>>>>Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as
>
> we
>
>>>>all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>Weights? What are weights?
>>>
>>>Art
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Those things everyone is trying to *loose* around their bellies?
>>
>
>
> Which is done by "toning".
>
> Which, apparently, is some kind of musical process.
>
>
>
>
Requires a bowflex in a powercage from what I read here a couple weeks ago.

--
Lurker

300_30%/???_??%/245_15%
Miracle of Medicine and Faith
http://jamesrobert.us

pil
November 29th 04, 06:22 PM
what the hell is a troll?

"Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
> John M. Williams wrote:
> > "Per Elmsäter" > wrote:
> >> Stray Mp3 Poster wrote:
> >>> "pil" > wrote in
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I
> >>>> have fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would
> >>>> like to burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I
> >>>> change my diet to do this and what cardio exercise will work the
> >>>> best for this?
> >>>>
> >>>> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
> >>>> yoghurt.. I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The
> >>>> only sugar I take is from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods
> >>>> should I cut out?
> >>>
> >>> Since when do bread and yogurt NOT have sugar in them???
> >>
> >> Cane Sugar? None of the bread or yoghurt I buy do.
> >
> > Since when is sucrose the only kind of sugar?
>
> Well the OP said he'd cut down on cane sugar, which is the part that I
> adressed. Ok he thinks that the only sugar he eats is from fruits which of
> course is an illusion. But so is his plan on losing his tummy in a month.
> LOL
> Actually it's so stupid to think so that I strongly suspect this is a
troll.
> Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as we
> all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.
>
> --
> Perre
> I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.
>
>

pil
November 29th 04, 06:24 PM
The thing is I am still trying to gain muscle mass as well. Is it possible
to do cutting and gaining at the same time? gaining muscle and cutting off
fat?


"Lyle McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> pil wrote:
>
> > I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
fat.
> > this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that
fat
> > off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>
> Eat less than you are now.
>
> Lyle
>

John HUDSON
November 29th 04, 06:39 PM
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:54:53 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

>
>"Lurker" wrote
>> Art S wrote:
>> > "Per Elmsäter" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>> >>Nevertheless I prefer these kind of trolls to the political ones and as
>we
>> >>all know this group has nothing much to do with weights anyway.
>> >
>> >
>> > Weights? What are weights?
>> >
>> > Art
>> >
>> >
>> Those things everyone is trying to *loose* around their bellies?
>>
>
>Which is done by "toning".
>
>Which, apparently, is some kind of musical process.

Au contraire old man!! See:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Toning.html

Per Elmsäter
November 29th 04, 07:27 PM
pil wrote:
> The thing is I am still trying to gain muscle mass as well. Is it
> possible to do cutting and gaining at the same time? gaining muscle
> and cutting off fat?
>

Yes. At least initially for maybe a few months. In eight weeks I've lost 8
kilo and have added weights to my exercises every week. The first couple of
weeks may have been only neuromuscular adaptions, but the last couple of
weeks sure feel like I am building good strength also. My weight loss has
slowed down to about 0.5 kilo/week the last weeks and that feels
comfortable.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Bassem Kandil
November 29th 04, 11:50 PM
first of all, you need to STOP eating bread, then jump on a product with
ephdrine in it to increase your metabolism.

so, if you controll your intake sugar (which you did) and controll your carb
intake (stop bread), with taking your thermogenic product, you will lose it
within 4 weeks.

i did it before.





"pil" > wrote in message
...
> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have fat.
> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn that
fat
> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet to do this and what
> cardio exercise will work the best for this?
>
> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
yoghurt..
> I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only sugar I take is
> from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I cut out?
>
>
>
>

Peter Webb
November 30th 04, 11:47 AM
<SNIP>

> yes, i have lost much muscle because when i started lifting weights last
> year (and before dieting) i made decent gains, yet still had a fairly high
> bf %.
>
<SNIP>

> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>
> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the only
> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>

Surprise surprise.

I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months - and I have dropped 6 pounds in the last
3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all. I was (am) on a high protein,
zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit food.

Blair P. Houghton
December 1st 04, 04:46 AM
Peter Webb > wrote:
>> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
>> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>>
>> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the only
>> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.

Don't go for profound immediacy. It'll be followed by
profound recidivism. Go for a profound lifestyle change
that leaves you with a diet you can tolerate for the rest
of your life.

>Surprise surprise.
>
>I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months

Just under 2 lbs/week. Good going.

>- and I have dropped 6 pounds in the last
>3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all.

If you stayed out of starvation mode, you shouldn't.

>I was (am) on a high protein,
>zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit food.

You're probably converting protein to energy. You'd do
as well by keeping your protein and carbs about equal and
your fat about half of them.

But, if you were eating carbs with your protein and doing
your gym work and keeping the same calorie deficit you're
on now, you might even have gained some muscle mass.

And you wouldn't be craving raw flour.

The other question is whether the fat you're taking in is
clogging your arteries.

I also find it hard to believe that you're ingesting zero
carbohydrate grams per day. There's got to be a few in there
from floating lint if nothing else.

What's your actual daily carb/protein/fat calorie ratio?

--Blair
"Don't you know?"

Peter Webb
December 1st 04, 06:24 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Webb > wrote:
>>> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
>>> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>>>
>>> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
>>> only
>>> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>
> Don't go for profound immediacy. It'll be followed by
> profound recidivism. Go for a profound lifestyle change
> that leaves you with a diet you can tolerate for the rest
> of your life.
>
>>Surprise surprise.
>>
>>I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months
>
> Just under 2 lbs/week. Good going.
>
>>- and I have dropped 6 pounds in the last
>>3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all.
>
> If you stayed out of starvation mode, you shouldn't.
>
>>I was (am) on a high protein,
>>zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit
>>food.
>
> You're probably converting protein to energy. You'd do
> as well by keeping your protein and carbs about equal and
> your fat about half of them.
>
> But, if you were eating carbs with your protein and doing
> your gym work and keeping the same calorie deficit you're
> on now, you might even have gained some muscle mass.


There is no way that I could maintain the same calorie deficit if I was
eating carbs.
Eating no carbs (or very few) supresses appetite - going into ketosis does
this massively. This is the only way that I can lose weight. Eating normal
food in moderation is simply too difficult.

>
> And you wouldn't be craving raw flour.
>

Muesli, actually.

> The other question is whether the fat you're taking in is
> clogging your arteries.
>


My cholesterol wen down and stayed down.

> I also find it hard to believe that you're ingesting zero
> carbohydrate grams per day. There's got to be a few in there
> from floating lint if nothing else.
>

Less than 10g per day, certainly. I have about 200g of milk every second day
in a protein shake; eggs and cheese contain trace carbs, and I have small
amounts of hollondaise, chilli etc sauces.


> What's your actual daily carb/protein/fat calorie ratio?
>


All Iknow is the carbs is effectively zero. The fat/protein ratio depends
upon what I eat each day, I don't keep track, but its pretty high protein.

Sweet Guy
December 1st 04, 08:05 AM
"Peter Webb" > wrote in message
u...
> <SNIP>
>
> > yes, i have lost much muscle because when i started lifting weights last
> > year (and before dieting) i made decent gains, yet still had a fairly
high
> > bf %.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> > for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
> > veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
> >
> > yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
only
> > way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
> >
>
> Surprise surprise.
>
> I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months - and I have dropped 6 pounds in the
last
> 3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all. I was (am) on a high
protein,
> zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit
food.

way to go petey and cheers!

i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
enzymes possible out of foods.

i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.

i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/

respectfully,

bunny

Sweet Guy
December 1st 04, 08:20 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Webb > wrote:
> >> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
> >> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
> >>
> >> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
only
> >> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>
> Don't go for profound immediacy. It'll be followed by
> profound recidivism. Go for a profound lifestyle change
> that leaves you with a diet you can tolerate for the rest
> of your life.

dug out the ole dictionary. :)

formerly, i consumed a lot of frozen pizzas, fast-foods., quick-foods,
potato chips, cookies, et al. all containing high saturated fats, and trans
fats. hence mucho skinny-fat.

i'm primarily organic/whole foods now. thus whenever i do binge it's all
good. :)

becoming a strict vegetarian (as opposed to ovo-lacto) has been most
beneficial.

since the weather has dropped significantly (wisconsin) i'm gonna invest in
a treadmill (can one run on those things as opposed to walking?).

blair, i gonna stick to this primarily fruitarian diet until next spring
(detoxing). i'll keep you guys posted on my progress. thank you very much
for listening.

Tony
December 1st 04, 12:56 PM
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:05:42 GMT, "Sweet Guy" > wrote:

>"Peter Webb" > wrote in message
u...
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> > yes, i have lost much muscle because when i started lifting weights last
>> > year (and before dieting) i made decent gains, yet still had a fairly
>high
>> > bf %.
>> >
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> > for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
>> > veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>> >
>> > yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
>only
>> > way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>> >
>>
>> Surprise surprise.
>>
>> I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months - and I have dropped 6 pounds in the
>last
>> 3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all. I was (am) on a high
>protein,
>> zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit
>food.
>
>way to go petey and cheers!
>
>i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
>enzymes possible out of foods.
>
>i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
>
>i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
>
You must be skinny as hell for that height. Losing the pouch isn't
worth becoming Starvin' Marvin. It WILL be easier to lose a little bit
more of the pouch little by little as you put on some muscle over time.
Try to grow some abs, that'll help too.

Blair P. Houghton
December 1st 04, 07:02 PM
Peter Webb > wrote:
>
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Peter Webb > wrote:
>>>> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
>>>> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>>>>
>>>> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
>>>> only
>>>> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>>
>> Don't go for profound immediacy. It'll be followed by
>> profound recidivism. Go for a profound lifestyle change
>> that leaves you with a diet you can tolerate for the rest
>> of your life.
>>
>>>Surprise surprise.
>>>
>>>I also lost 50 pounds in 6 months
>>
>> Just under 2 lbs/week. Good going.
>>
>>>- and I have dropped 6 pounds in the last
>>>3 weeks - but I lost almost no muscle at all.
>>
>> If you stayed out of starvation mode, you shouldn't.
>>
>>>I was (am) on a high protein,
>>>zero carb diet - much better for preserving muscle than eating rabbit
>>>food.
>>
>> You're probably converting protein to energy. You'd do
>> as well by keeping your protein and carbs about equal and
>> your fat about half of them.
>>
>> But, if you were eating carbs with your protein and doing
>> your gym work and keeping the same calorie deficit you're
>> on now, you might even have gained some muscle mass.
>
>
>There is no way that I could maintain the same calorie deficit if I was
>eating carbs.
>Eating no carbs (or very few) supresses appetite - going into ketosis does
>this massively. This is the only way that I can lose weight. Eating normal
>food in moderation is simply too difficult.

I'm not so sure you're in ketosis, or maintaining a huge
calorie deficit, unless you're not exercising at all.

50 lbs in 26 weeks is just under 2 lbs a week, which would
be about 6600/7 = 950 kcal/day. Pretty stiff, but if you
ride a bike 20 mph for an hour a day (my favorite way to
start a morning) you'll knock all those calories off and
be able to eat "normally". I aim for 1 lb/week so that
fluctuations don't mess me up, so I actually added about
400-500 cals to my diet when I got back on my bike in July.

>> And you wouldn't be craving raw flour.
>
>Muesli, actually.

I'm digging the oatmeal right now. McCann's Irish Oats
(the quick, 2-minute version) with a sliced-up banana, beside
a protein shake and a few pills (multivitamin, calcium,
and a chondroitin/msm/glucosamine thing that is probably
doing nothing for my joints but doesn't seem to hurt and is
my only nod to that sort of superstitious supplementation).

Breakfast of champions and old farts who just got back on
their bike.

>> The other question is whether the fat you're taking in is
>> clogging your arteries.
>
>My cholesterol wen down and stayed down.
>
>> I also find it hard to believe that you're ingesting zero
>> carbohydrate grams per day. There's got to be a few in there
>> from floating lint if nothing else.
>
>Less than 10g per day, certainly. I have about 200g of milk every second day
>in a protein shake; eggs and cheese contain trace carbs, and I have small
>amounts of hollondaise, chilli etc sauces.

200g milk about 10 g carbs.

Each egg contains 1.5 g of carbs. Not really "trace".

>> What's your actual daily carb/protein/fat calorie ratio?
>
>All Iknow is the carbs is effectively zero. The fat/protein ratio depends
>upon what I eat each day, I don't keep track, but its pretty high protein.

I'd guess you're around 10% of calories from carbs,
including all your untracked "trace" sources, if you're
100% honest with yourself about not cheating.

How are you tracking that you're not losing muscle?

--Blair
"I'd be in a dunk tank twice a week..."

Blair P. Houghton
December 1st 04, 07:08 PM
Sweet Guy > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Peter Webb > wrote:
>> >> for the past three weeks, i've primarily eaten only raw fruits and raw
>> >> veggies (lost about 10 lbs.).
>> >>
>> >> yeah, i'm nuts but 'extreme' dieting/exercising/weightlifting is the
>only
>> >> way i'm seeing profound results for myself.
>>
>> Don't go for profound immediacy. It'll be followed by
>> profound recidivism. Go for a profound lifestyle change
>> that leaves you with a diet you can tolerate for the rest
>> of your life.
>
>dug out the ole dictionary. :)
>
>formerly, i consumed a lot of frozen pizzas, fast-foods., quick-foods,

Didn't we all?

>potato chips, cookies, et al. all containing high saturated fats, and trans
>fats. hence mucho skinny-fat.
>
>i'm primarily organic/whole foods now. thus whenever i do binge it's all
>good. :)

AKA "but Mooo-ooom! I have to carbo-cycle!"

>becoming a strict vegetarian (as opposed to ovo-lacto) has been most
>beneficial.

Where do you get protein? There's not much in plant
sources. Soy powder? Yech. Whey and casein are made from
milk, so you're still a lacto- if you're taking whey.

>since the weather has dropped significantly (wisconsin) i'm gonna invest in
>a treadmill (can one run on those things as opposed to walking?).

Absolutely. Or if your knees are a worry, get a recumbent
bike. Or a good upright, one with lots of adjustments for
where the seat and bars go so you can set it properly so
you don't mess up your back, knees, neck, etc. Invest in
a spin-class or two; I used to race, and thought I was making
progress out on the road, but I just got into a spin class last
week and that little girl kicked my ass.

>blair, i gonna stick to this primarily fruitarian diet until next spring
>(detoxing). i'll keep you guys posted on my progress. thank you very much
>for listening.

Fruit = good stuff.

--Blair
"Dunno if I could live on it, but hey."

Hugh Beyer
December 1st 04, 10:24 PM
"Idie" > wrote in news:oquqd.2862$u81.2710
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Jim > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Usenet Posting" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:03:40 -0700, Lyle McDonald
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>pil wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
>> >>> fat. this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to
>> >>> burn that fat off in a about one month. How should I change my diet
>> >>
>> >>Eat less than you are now.
>> >>
>> >>Lyle
>> >
>> > Think you can stretch that into a book?
>>
>> He already did...gotta love Lyle..he gets fed up with the bull**** and
>> says "dont even buy my book..just eat less and move more!"
>>
>> Jim
>
> lyle does not know from marketing

Who are you insulting here? Lyle's a marketing genius.

I just pressed the "products" link on his site and got a popup message: "HEY
MORON, READ THIS FIRST".

How can that not be genius? Or something?

Hugh


--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.

Peter Webb
December 2nd 04, 11:44 AM
>>There is no way that I could maintain the same calorie deficit if I was
>>eating carbs.
>>Eating no carbs (or very few) supresses appetite - going into ketosis does
>>this massively. This is the only way that I can lose weight. Eating normal
>>food in moderation is simply too difficult.
>
> I'm not so sure you're in ketosis, or maintaining a huge
> calorie deficit, unless you're not exercising at all.

I'm normally in ketosis, and am right now - I use ketostix to check. A nice,
dark, chocolatey brown reading ....

>
> 50 lbs in 26 weeks is just under 2 lbs a week, which would
> be about 6600/7 = 950 kcal/day. Pretty stiff, but if you
> ride a bike 20 mph for an hour a day (my favorite way to
> start a morning) you'll knock all those calories off and
> be able to eat "normally". I aim for 1 lb/week so that
> fluctuations don't mess me up, so I actually added about
> 400-500 cals to my diet when I got back on my bike in July.
>

Ride a bike for an hour a day?

I could do that, or I could just avoid carbs. For me, avoiding carbs is way
easier.

>>
>>> I also find it hard to believe that you're ingesting zero
>>> carbohydrate grams per day. There's got to be a few in there
>>> from floating lint if nothing else.
>>
>>Less than 10g per day, certainly. I have about 200g of milk every second
>>day
>>in a protein shake; eggs and cheese contain trace carbs, and I have small
>>amounts of hollondaise, chilli etc sauces.
>
> 200g milk about 10 g carbs.
>
> Each egg contains 1.5 g of carbs. Not really "trace".
>

So that is 5g a day from milk, and I eat probably 3 or 4 eggs a week, so
that's another 1 gram a day ... when I am being strict - which is most of
the time - 10 grams a day is about right.

>>> What's your actual daily carb/protein/fat calorie ratio?
>>
>>All Iknow is the carbs is effectively zero. The fat/protein ratio depends
>>upon what I eat each day, I don't keep track, but its pretty high protein.
>
> I'd guess you're around 10% of calories from carbs,
> including all your untracked "trace" sources, if you're
> 100% honest with yourself about not cheating.
>

How could you possibly guess that? I haven't noticed you hanging around my
kitchen lately.
There is no way I would get 10% of my calories from carbs - say I get 2,000
kCal/day (I dunno what it is, I don't count calories) that would be 200
kCal/day from carbs or 50g a day. Absolutely no way - and if I was, there
would be no way I could get into or stay in ketosis (limit is generally
reckoned to 30g per day).


> How are you tracking that you're not losing muscle?
>

My lifts - specifically my bench - is the same now as when I was 25kg
heavier. I can now do weighted chins - 4 reps with 25 kgs extra weight -
whereas before I couldn't do a single chinup - but I guess using bodyweight
exercises is cheating.

Everybody to their own thing. You want to ride a bike for an hour a day, at
a level of exertion to burn 1000 kCals (which for me at my present level of
fitness would completly exhaust me), you go for it. I kind of like being on
a zero carb diet ... at least you don't have to think about what you are
having for dinner, mmmm steak my favourite.

Eric Witte
December 2nd 04, 04:41 PM
> i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
> enzymes possible out of foods.
>
> i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
>
> i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
>
> respectfully,
>
> bunny

!!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
overhang.

Eric

Sweet Guy
December 3rd 04, 05:40 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Sweet Guy > wrote:
> >"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Peter Webb > wrote:
>
> Where do you get protein? There's not much in plant
> sources. Soy powder? Yech. Whey and casein are made from
> milk, so you're still a lacto- if you're taking whey.

VEG protein powder w/ 8 oz. of soymilk. VEG is also an excellent source od
b12.

> >since the weather has dropped significantly (wisconsin) i'm gonna invest
in
> >a treadmill (can one run on those things as opposed to walking?).
>
> Absolutely. Or if your knees are a worry, get a recumbent
> bike. Or a good upright, one with lots of adjustments for
> where the seat and bars go so you can set it properly so
> you don't mess up your back, knees, neck, etc. Invest in
> a spin-class or two; I used to race, and thought I was making
> progress out on the road, but I just got into a spin class last
> week and that little girl kicked my ass.

lol!

i owned a wal-mart brand exercycle this past spring. but i placed it out in
the trash because it didn't do dick for my abdomen. proof of which, i
purchased a bicycle (wal-mart also) and rode it hard all summer. no affect
on the tummy. i'm gonna try the treadmill (wal-mart again?) this time.
however, i'll keep an eye on the knees.

> Fruit = good stuff.

i can't believe i'm saying this, but fruit actually tastes much better than
all the cookies and doughnuts i formerly ate. :)

Sweet Guy
December 3rd 04, 05:53 AM
"Eric Witte" > wrote in message
om...
> > i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
> > enzymes possible out of foods.
> >
> > i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
> >
> > i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
> >
> > respectfully,
> >
> > bunny
>
> !!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
> that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
> overhang.

now at: 132.4 lbs./7% bf.

respectfully,

dem bones

Hugh Beyer
December 3rd 04, 12:25 PM
"Sweet Guy" > wrote in
:

>> Absolutely. Or if your knees are a worry, get a recumbent
>> bike. Or a good upright, one with lots of adjustments for
>> where the seat and bars go so you can set it properly so
>> you don't mess up your back, knees, neck, etc. Invest in
>> a spin-class or two; I used to race, and thought I was making
>> progress out on the road, but I just got into a spin class last
>> week and that little girl kicked my ass.
>
> lol!
>
> i owned a wal-mart brand exercycle this past spring. but i placed it
> out in the trash because it didn't do dick for my abdomen. proof of
> which, i purchased a bicycle (wal-mart also) and rode it hard all
> summer. no affect on the tummy. i'm gonna try the treadmill (wal-mart
> again?) this time. however, i'll keep an eye on the knees.
>

Guy, aren't you learning anything from this? Don't buy any more equipment
from Wal-Mart. Get a Bowflex.

Hugh


--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.

Stray Mp3 Poster
December 3rd 04, 02:13 PM
> Guy, aren't you learning anything from this? Don't buy any more
> equipment from Wal-Mart. Get a Bowflex.
>
> Hugh
>
>

Yea and if you're lucky you'll get one of the 800,000 bowflex units that
are being recalled:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/29/health/main596623.shtml

Hugh Beyer
December 3rd 04, 04:50 PM
Stray Mp3 Poster > wrote in
:

>> Guy, aren't you learning anything from this? Don't buy any more
>> equipment from Wal-Mart. Get a Bowflex.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>
> Yea and if you're lucky you'll get one of the 800,000 bowflex units that
> are being recalled:
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/29/health/main596623.shtml
>

Exercise causes injury, didn't you know?

Hugh

--
One puppy had its dewclaws removed in the creation of this post, but for
reasons of hygene and it really doesn't hurt them at all.

Blair P. Houghton
December 5th 04, 03:28 AM
Sweet Guy > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
>> Absolutely. Or if your knees are a worry, get a recumbent
>> bike. Or a good upright, one with lots of adjustments for
>> where the seat and bars go so you can set it properly so
>> you don't mess up your back, knees, neck, etc. Invest in
>> a spin-class or two; I used to race, and thought I was making
>> progress out on the road, but I just got into a spin class last
>> week and that little girl kicked my ass.
>
>lol!
>
>i owned a wal-mart brand exercycle this past spring. but i placed it out in
>the trash because it didn't do dick for my abdomen. proof of which, i
>purchased a bicycle (wal-mart also) and rode it hard all summer. no affect
>on the tummy. i'm gonna try the treadmill (wal-mart again?) this time.
>however, i'll keep an eye on the knees.

Maybe you're still eating too much, or your metabolism has
gone way low and you're not getting the followon effect
out of your exercise.

--Blair
"Make those lipocytes pay!"

Blair P. Houghton
December 5th 04, 03:42 AM
Peter Webb > wrote:
>> How are you tracking that you're not losing muscle?
>>
>
>My lifts - specifically my bench - is the same now as when I was 25kg
>heavier.

Strength and mass are not the same thing. My weightroom
strength increases continually, but my LBM is pretty
constant.

>I can now do weighted chins - 4 reps with 25 kgs extra weight -
>whereas before I couldn't do a single chinup - but I guess using bodyweight
>exercises is cheating.
>
>Everybody to their own thing. You want to ride a bike for an hour a day, at
>a level of exertion to burn 1000 kCals (which for me at my present level of
>fitness would completly exhaust me),

Doesn't exhaust me at all. Makes me feel *better* for
the rest of the day.

>you go for it. I kind of like being on
>a zero carb diet ... at least you don't have to think about what you are
>having for dinner, mmmm steak my favourite.

If you're still eating "whatever you want without
thinking," you're eating too much, ketosis or no.

--Blair
"Must be cool to be losing weight
and retaining fat and packing your
heart with suet like a duck confit."

Blair P. Houghton
December 5th 04, 03:55 AM
Eric Witte > wrote:
>> i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
>> enzymes possible out of foods.
>>
>> i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
>>
>> i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
>>
>> respectfully,
>>
>> bunny
>
>!!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
>that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
>overhang.

I'm 70.75 inches tall and weigh 190 at 10-15% bfp.
I'd have to get to 0% and then cut off a leg to reach 134.

134 with 8% BF is 123 lbs of LBM.

Sounds like starvation mode taken to an almost anorexic
extreme.

And the problem there is that there's going to be so little
muscle left that basal metabolic rate won't be a simple
multiple of bodyweight any more.

He's eating too much to lose fat, doesn't have enough muscle
to burn it off normally, and has dieted down too low.

--Blair
"Get help now."

Proton Soup
December 5th 04, 04:15 AM
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 03:55:44 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

>Eric Witte > wrote:
>>> i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
>>> enzymes possible out of foods.
>>>
>>> i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
>>>
>>> i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
>>>
>>> respectfully,
>>>
>>> bunny
>>
>>!!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
>>that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
>>overhang.
>
>I'm 70.75 inches tall and weigh 190 at 10-15% bfp.
>I'd have to get to 0% and then cut off a leg to reach 134.
>
>134 with 8% BF is 123 lbs of LBM.
>
>Sounds like starvation mode taken to an almost anorexic
>extreme.

That one is a troll. He pops in from time to time.

>And the problem there is that there's going to be so little
>muscle left that basal metabolic rate won't be a simple
>multiple of bodyweight any more.
>
>He's eating too much to lose fat, doesn't have enough muscle
>to burn it off normally, and has dieted down too low.
>
> --Blair
> "Get help now."

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

Blair P. Houghton
December 6th 04, 03:54 AM
Proton Soup > wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 03:55:44 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>>Eric Witte > wrote:
>>>> i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain all
>>>> enzymes possible out of foods.
>>>>
>>>> i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches tall.
>>>>
>>>> i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
>>>>
>>>> respectfully,
>>>>
>>>> bunny
>>>
>>>!!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
>>>that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
>>>overhang.
>>
>>I'm 70.75 inches tall and weigh 190 at 10-15% bfp.
>>I'd have to get to 0% and then cut off a leg to reach 134.
>>
>>134 with 8% BF is 123 lbs of LBM.
>>
>>Sounds like starvation mode taken to an almost anorexic
>>extreme.
>
>That one is a troll. He pops in from time to time.

Ah. "The Buchenwald Bunny"?

--Blair
"I had a slight inkling, but hey."

Proton Soup
December 6th 04, 03:58 AM
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 03:52:42 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> I drink water all day like I'm trying to dilute
>my blood down to a pink-lemonade color.

Heh, yeah, I knows it's real trendy and all to drink water like a
fish, and I appreciate not being dehydrated, but some people shouldn't
do this. My mom, for one, has high blood pressure that her doctor
controls by giving her diuretics. She had no idea that her trying to
force water down her gullet all day was self-defeating, but as it
turns out, it's common knowledge among people trying to lose weight
that drinking water all the time helps. And I'm sure it does, for at
least two reasons that I know of, but in general, people shouldn't try
to force themselves to drink when their body is telling them that it's
full.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

Sweet Guy
December 6th 04, 08:55 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Sweet Guy > wrote:
> >"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
> >> Absolutely. Or if your knees are a worry, get a recumbent
> >> bike. Or a good upright, one with lots of adjustments for
> >> where the seat and bars go so you can set it properly so
> >> you don't mess up your back, knees, neck, etc. Invest in
> >> a spin-class or two; I used to race, and thought I was making
> >> progress out on the road, but I just got into a spin class last
> >> week and that little girl kicked my ass.
> >
> >lol!
> >
> >i owned a wal-mart brand exercycle this past spring. but i placed it out
in
> >the trash because it didn't do dick for my abdomen. proof of which, i
> >purchased a bicycle (wal-mart also) and rode it hard all summer. no
affect
> >on the tummy. i'm gonna try the treadmill (wal-mart again?) this time.
> >however, i'll keep an eye on the knees.
>
> Maybe you're still eating too much, or your metabolism has
> gone way low and you're not getting the followon effect
> out of your exercise.

my eating habits have been under control for several months.

my spare tire had been really growing for the past 3-4 years.

my metabolism is still high and has been unaffected even with my crash
dieting.

the bike-riding worked a great deal for leg strength and endurance, but the
dieting (thus far) is the only verb that is significantly reducing my
waistline.

gonna get that manual treadmill this week sometime. i'm sure to discover
profound results after a few weeks using it.

Sweet Guy
December 6th 04, 09:08 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Eric Witte > wrote:
> >> i could've chosen an alternate route but decided to detox and obtain
all
> >> enzymes possible out of foods.
> >>
> >> i now weigh (according to taylor) 134 lbs./8% bf. i'm 70.5 inches
tall.
> >>
> >> i'm gonna lose this pouch even if i must shrink down to 120 lbs. :/
> >>
> >> respectfully,
> >>
> >> bunny
> >
> >!!! I start looking like a skeleton at around 170-175lbs (~72in). At
> >that point my waist is around 29-30" yet I still have a slight stomach
> >overhang.
>
> I'm 70.75 inches tall and weigh 190 at 10-15% bfp.
> I'd have to get to 0% and then cut off a leg to reach 134.
>
> 134 with 8% BF is 123 lbs of LBM.
>
> Sounds like starvation mode taken to an almost anorexic
> extreme.

nah. no anorexia problem.

> And the problem there is that there's going to be so little
> muscle left that basal metabolic rate won't be a simple
> multiple of bodyweight any more.

i believe i possess (fortunately) very good genetics. i am very healthy.
even for my age (42 y.o.)

another couple-few months of crash-dieting/exercise and i'll return to
normal eating habits.

> He's eating too much to lose fat, doesn't have enough muscle
> to burn it off normally, and has dieted down too low.

perhaps. gonna now treadmill to supplement dieting.

Peter Allen
December 6th 04, 12:54 PM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Allen > wrote:
> >So you're fitter than he is. Try for maybe 1,200 or 1,300 calories and
see
> >how you feel after.
> >
> >(OK, the answer to that is probably that you feel really good for the
next
> >hour with endorphins buzzing around, but after that you'll be wiped)
>
> Ever heard of these new things called Water and Carbohydrates?
>
> "Recovery" is a simple matter of eating. And not nearly as much
> as you expended. And not nearly as much of it in fat or sugar.
<snip>
> I never feel "exhausted", I never feel sore, and I never
> feel weak.

Which simply means you aren't pushing your limits. As you say, 20mph isn't
super-fast, and it's clearly fairly easy for you. On the other hand, if you
were to go out and do a 25 mile time trial, which would take about an hour,
then either you would finish having not pushed yourself as hard as possible,
or you would feel exhausted, weak and sore for the rest of the day.

> 1000 calories/hour is about 20 mph on a bike, which is a
> little fast, but anyone can train up to it.

Agreed.

> >> >you go for it. I kind of like being on
> >> >a zero carb diet ... at least you don't have to think about what you
are
> >> >having for dinner, mmmm steak my favourite.
> >>
> >> If you're still eating "whatever you want without
> >> thinking," you're eating too much, ketosis or no.
> >
> >So you want to explain to me how when I eat whatever I want without
> >thinking, I lose weight (which I don't want to do right now)?
>
> I hate ectomorphs.

I'm not. Going by when I was a bit younger, I tend to put fat on relatively
easily.

On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly cardio work
(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.

Peter

Per Elmsäter
December 6th 04, 10:01 PM
Bully wrote:
> Peter Allen wrote:
>> On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week,
> Why ???
>

Why not????
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Blair P. Houghton
December 7th 04, 02:19 AM
Proton Soup > wrote:
>On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 03:52:42 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>> I drink water all day like I'm trying to dilute
>>my blood down to a pink-lemonade color.
>
>Heh, yeah, I knows it's real trendy and all to drink water like a
>fish, and I appreciate not being dehydrated, but some people shouldn't
>do this. My mom, for one, has high blood pressure that her doctor
>controls by giving her diuretics. She had no idea that her trying to
>force water down her gullet all day was self-defeating, but as it
>turns out, it's common knowledge among people trying to lose weight
>that drinking water all the time helps. And I'm sure it does, for at
>least two reasons that I know of, but in general, people shouldn't try
>to force themselves to drink when their body is telling them that it's
>full.

In general, people of non-chronically ill health should
do what people do in general to succeed at physical
accomplishments, if those accomplishments are their goal.

If you have a persistent medical condition and you're
listening to any health advice that didn't come directly
from your doctor's mouth, then you are going to hurt
yourself.

--Blair
"Which might be your goal, too."

Blair P. Houghton
December 7th 04, 02:28 AM
Peter Allen > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Peter Allen > wrote:
>> >So you're fitter than he is. Try for maybe 1,200 or 1,300 calories and
>see
>> >how you feel after.
>> >
>> >(OK, the answer to that is probably that you feel really good for the
>next
>> >hour with endorphins buzzing around, but after that you'll be wiped)
>>
>> Ever heard of these new things called Water and Carbohydrates?
>>
>> "Recovery" is a simple matter of eating. And not nearly as much
>> as you expended. And not nearly as much of it in fat or sugar.
><snip>
>> I never feel "exhausted", I never feel sore, and I never
>> feel weak.
>
>Which simply means you aren't pushing your limits. As you say, 20mph isn't
>super-fast, and it's clearly fairly easy for you. On the other hand, if you
>were to go out and do a 25 mile time trial, which would take about an hour,
>then either you would finish having not pushed yourself as hard as possible,
>or you would feel exhausted, weak and sore for the rest of the day.

No, when I'm on my bike, I work as hard as I can (without
entering a high-carb-burning mode for more than a minute at
a time), because I always want some sort of accomplishment
to appear in my log (and I want to finish the ride).

20.9 mph over 52 minutes is my best since I started
riding again in July (after 12 years away from the road).
The cold has kicked me off my ride (I refuse to associate
unnecessary misery with my bike), so we'll see how training
in the gym and spin classes does me through winter.

>> 1000 calories/hour is about 20 mph on a bike, which is a
>> little fast, but anyone can train up to it.
>
>Agreed.
>
>> >> >you go for it. I kind of like being on
>> >> >a zero carb diet ... at least you don't have to think about what you
>are
>> >> >having for dinner, mmmm steak my favourite.
>> >>
>> >> If you're still eating "whatever you want without
>> >> thinking," you're eating too much, ketosis or no.
>> >
>> >So you want to explain to me how when I eat whatever I want without
>> >thinking, I lose weight (which I don't want to do right now)?
>>
>> I hate ectomorphs.
>
>I'm not. Going by when I was a bit younger, I tend to put fat on relatively
>easily.
>
>On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly cardio work
>(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.

You should be paying attention to your ratios. Not enough
protein and you'll drop muscle. It was the search for
info on keeping protein in muscle (I thought my legs were
eating my shoulders; and they were) that led me to learn
about starvation mode.

12 sessions a week sounds like a lot, too. Are they short?
If they're short, are they intense or moderate?

I know 1 hour a day isn't optimal for any course of
training. I'd prefer to do 2+ hours of cycling 3 times
a week and 1 to 1.5 hours of upper-body training twice
a week. But it's what fits my schedule now.

--Blair
"Could be freeing up in a few days, though..."

Proton Soup
December 7th 04, 05:11 AM
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 02:19:19 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

>Proton Soup > wrote:
>>On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 03:52:42 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>>
>>> I drink water all day like I'm trying to dilute
>>>my blood down to a pink-lemonade color.
>>
>>Heh, yeah, I knows it's real trendy and all to drink water like a
>>fish, and I appreciate not being dehydrated, but some people shouldn't
>>do this. My mom, for one, has high blood pressure that her doctor
>>controls by giving her diuretics. She had no idea that her trying to
>>force water down her gullet all day was self-defeating, but as it
>>turns out, it's common knowledge among people trying to lose weight
>>that drinking water all the time helps. And I'm sure it does, for at
>>least two reasons that I know of, but in general, people shouldn't try
>>to force themselves to drink when their body is telling them that it's
>>full.
>
>In general, people of non-chronically ill health should
>do what people do in general to succeed at physical
>accomplishments, if those accomplishments are their goal.
>
>If you have a persistent medical condition and you're
>listening to any health advice that didn't come directly
>from your doctor's mouth, then you are going to hurt
>yourself.

I still think many healthy people are overdoing it on the water.

If your body is telling you "enough already", then it's probably a
good idea not to drink anymore unless you're about to go do some
activity that you know ahead of time is going to seriously dehydrate
you if you don't.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

Peter Allen
December 7th 04, 12:29 PM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Allen > wrote:
> >Which simply means you aren't pushing your limits. As you say, 20mph
isn't
> >super-fast, and it's clearly fairly easy for you. On the other hand, if
you
> >were to go out and do a 25 mile time trial, which would take about an
hour,
> >then either you would finish having not pushed yourself as hard as
possible,
> >or you would feel exhausted, weak and sore for the rest of the day.
>
> No, when I'm on my bike, I work as hard as I can (without
> entering a high-carb-burning mode for more than a minute at
> a time), because I always want some sort of accomplishment
> to appear in my log (and I want to finish the ride).

Surely that means you _aren't_ pushing yourself as hard as possible -
guessing at what you mean by high-carb-burning mode, but I'd imagine you
mean you're sitting around UT1 intensity. Which is certainly not easy work,
but it's not the same as sitting on or over your aerobic threshold the whole
way (which is something you can't do every day without getting overtrained
in short order).

> >On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly cardio
work
> >(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.
>
> You should be paying attention to your ratios. Not enough
> protein and you'll drop muscle. It was the search for
> info on keeping protein in muscle (I thought my legs were
> eating my shoulders; and they were) that led me to learn
> about starvation mode.

I'm not dropping muscle now (or at least my gym lifts and erg scores are
going up, and I'm not that untrained). I'm just tending to lose fat; and of
course the lower my body fat goes the more likely I am to lose muscle later.
So I'm basically just shoving extra calories in.

> 12 sessions a week sounds like a lot, too. Are they short?
> If they're short, are they intense or moderate?

Variable. Usually: 3 weights sessions about 80 minutes each, but a lot of
that is waiting and chatting with mates, probably 40 minutes of work. 7
water sessions, about 90 minutes, anywhere between UT2 (low) intensity up to
some maximal pieces (but over more like 5k distances, when we're training
for mainly 2k races). One flexibility, core, etc. session, which isn't much
work at all. One erg session, which is either 70 minutes UT2, 30 minutes
flat out (but rate-capped at 20 so it's more a test of strength-endurance
than cardio), or occasionally shorter flat-out pieces. Overall, most of the
work is relatively low intensity stuff; we're trying to build up a good base
of fitness and strength now, start working the intensity and speeds up
through spring, peak around Henley Royal Regatta and Nat. Champs. in the
summer.

Plus most days I'm biking to and from training, so maybe 120 miles a week on
a bike, slowly.

To answer your question in the other post, this is not the same as the GB
squad's routine - they have more time than we do, so they do more sessions,
generally at a slightly lower intensity. It's not too dissimilar, though.

Peter

Blair P. Houghton
December 7th 04, 09:36 PM
Proton Soup > wrote:
>I still think many healthy people are overdoing it on the water.
>
>If your body is telling you "enough already", then it's probably a
>good idea not to drink anymore unless you're about to go do some
>activity that you know ahead of time is going to seriously dehydrate
>you if you don't.

Well, maybe I was a tad hyperbolic (if not hypergolic).

I'll do 20 oz/hr while exercising to maintain fluids,
then probably refill the bottle 1-3 times throughout the
work day, then have 3-4 16-oz glasses in the evening.
Summat like 108-144 oz, or 4 to 5 quarts

Some people drink that much in *coffee*.

This would include water ingested at meals, and I eat
5 times a day, so it gets used and salted, and I'm not
risking hyponatremia.

I live in Arizona, and when I go to bed at night I
can expect to wake up 1-2 lbs lighter just from fluid
evaporation. That's the most dehydrated I want to be
all day.

Almost all of us with any bodyfat carry plenty of energy
to cover any sort of short term (1 hr or less) exercise
we might want to do, so when you feel weak or unbalanced
during a workout and you're not sick, it's usually because
you are dehydrated and don't know it. Though it can also
be because you're low on glucose and glycogen stores if
you do intense exercise every day and you tend not to eat
enough carbs.

--Blair
"Atkins dieters can't hang."

Blair P. Houghton
December 7th 04, 10:06 PM
Peter Allen > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Peter Allen > wrote:
>> >Which simply means you aren't pushing your limits. As you say, 20mph
>isn't
>> >super-fast, and it's clearly fairly easy for you. On the other hand, if
>you
>> >were to go out and do a 25 mile time trial, which would take about an
>hour,
>> >then either you would finish having not pushed yourself as hard as
>possible,
>> >or you would feel exhausted, weak and sore for the rest of the day.
>>
>> No, when I'm on my bike, I work as hard as I can (without
>> entering a high-carb-burning mode for more than a minute at
>> a time), because I always want some sort of accomplishment
>> to appear in my log (and I want to finish the ride).
>
>Surely that means you _aren't_ pushing yourself as hard as possible -
>guessing at what you mean by high-carb-burning mode, but I'd imagine you

If I went at 100% of MRH I'd go about 5 minutes and keel over, just
like everyone else.

>mean you're sitting around UT1 intensity. Which is certainly not easy work,
>but it's not the same as sitting on or over your aerobic threshold the whole
>way (which is something you can't do every day without getting overtrained
>in short order).

I mix stuff up a lot to avoid boredom, and it prevents overtraining.

>> >On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly cardio
>work
>> >(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.
>>
>> You should be paying attention to your ratios. Not enough
>> protein and you'll drop muscle. It was the search for
>> info on keeping protein in muscle (I thought my legs were
>> eating my shoulders; and they were) that led me to learn
>> about starvation mode.
>
>I'm not dropping muscle now (or at least my gym lifts and erg scores are
>going up, and I'm not that untrained). I'm just tending to lose fat; and of
>course the lower my body fat goes the more likely I am to lose muscle later.

I don't agree. You have to add "when I completely forget to eat
enough or exercise" after that "later".

>So I'm basically just shoving extra calories in.

If your protein is near 2g/kilo, and your carbs
are at least that much, and your calories add up to
your expenditure, you should be alright for training.

Unless you like losing the fat, in which case cut your
diet: drop the fat to 15-20% of cals and make as much of
it "good fat" as possible--omega 3/6 fats can actually
encourage fat loss--then lower carb cals to equal or just
above protein cals, then lower both so that your total
calories are 300-800 less than your expenditure. 300-800
cals/day is 2100-5600/week, which is a pound a week, give
or take a snowball.

Strength and endurance can increase even as weight
decreases, but don't expect to build muscle mass or reach
competition aerobic capabilities while you're cutting fat.

>> 12 sessions a week sounds like a lot, too. Are they short?
>> If they're short, are they intense or moderate?
>
>Variable. Usually: 3 weights sessions about 80 minutes each, but a lot of
>that is waiting and chatting with mates, probably 40 minutes of work. 7

Man, I hate gym-jabber. The only thing worse than getting
sucked into it is when two people on the next machine over
are blabbering like their rides are waiting.

One yammering tool this morning almost leaned casually
ONTO THE BAR OF THE INCLINE BENCH I WAS SITTING ON, WHILE
I WAS HOLDING IT READY TO LIFT IT!

I don't often wish for anyone to stop exercising, but this
guy needed to go across the street to the Waffle House
and forget about ever understanding the gym.

>water sessions, about 90 minutes, anywhere between UT2 (low) intensity up to
>some maximal pieces (but over more like 5k distances, when we're training
>for mainly 2k races). One flexibility, core, etc. session, which isn't much
>work at all. One erg session, which is either 70 minutes UT2, 30 minutes
>flat out (but rate-capped at 20 so it's more a test of strength-endurance
>than cardio), or occasionally shorter flat-out pieces. Overall, most of the
>work is relatively low intensity stuff; we're trying to build up a good base
>of fitness and strength now, start working the intensity and speeds up
>through spring, peak around Henley Royal Regatta and Nat. Champs. in the
>summer.
>
>Plus most days I'm biking to and from training, so maybe 120 miles a week on
>a bike, slowly.
>
>To answer your question in the other post, this is not the same as the GB
>squad's routine - they have more time than we do, so they do more sessions,
>generally at a slightly lower intensity. It's not too dissimilar, though.

If the workouts weren't enough, the bike-commute is worth
4,000 cals/week.

If you have time, start paying closer attention to your
food. Unless you're preternaturally lucky, I bet you'll
find your carb/protein/fat ratio out of whack, or that
you're dangerously close to a forced starvation situation
(more than 800 cals deficit/day) or in one (more than 1000
cals deficit for more than 2-3 days in a row). If your weight
is dropping more than 2 lbs/week, you're probably starving out
and losing muscle.

--Blair
"Man I hate gym-jabber."

Peter Allen
December 8th 04, 01:29 AM
"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Allen > wrote:
> >"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> No, when I'm on my bike, I work as hard as I can (without
> >> entering a high-carb-burning mode for more than a minute at
> >> a time), because I always want some sort of accomplishment
> >> to appear in my log (and I want to finish the ride).
> >
> >Surely that means you _aren't_ pushing yourself as hard as possible -
> >guessing at what you mean by high-carb-burning mode, but I'd imagine you
>
> If I went at 100% of MRH I'd go about 5 minutes and keel over, just
> like everyone else.

Yes - but there is a gap between what you do and 100% MHR, yes?

AT heart rate is usually well below max heart rate (if you try to sit on AT
power output your heart rate will go up fairly sharply, level off, around 5
minutes you say that's where AT heart rate is, but it'll continue to drift
up as you go on). Roughly, AT power output is about what you get if you are
fit to start with, doing a sport which does not require much strength (for
you) and you do a perfectly paced, absolute max time trial.

For me (as of about 2 months ago, when I did a step test), on a rowing
machine:
MHR 200
AT 185 (power output 310W)
UT1 172 (264W)
UT2 159 (218W)

Power numbers aren't too useful, since you don't row - but you might get
something from the ratios.

> >mean you're sitting around UT1 intensity. Which is certainly not easy
work,
> >but it's not the same as sitting on or over your aerobic threshold the
whole
> >way (which is something you can't do every day without getting
overtrained
> >in short order).
>
> I mix stuff up a lot to avoid boredom, and it prevents overtraining.

Not really. You can overtrain without ever repeating a workout, if you
really want to; it's not a matter of how many times you do the same thing,
it's the overall work and intensities.

> >> >On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly
cardio
> >work
> >> >(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.
> >>
> >> You should be paying attention to your ratios. Not enough
> >> protein and you'll drop muscle. It was the search for
> >> info on keeping protein in muscle (I thought my legs were
> >> eating my shoulders; and they were) that led me to learn
> >> about starvation mode.
> >
> >I'm not dropping muscle now (or at least my gym lifts and erg scores are
> >going up, and I'm not that untrained). I'm just tending to lose fat; and
of
> >course the lower my body fat goes the more likely I am to lose muscle
later.
>
> I don't agree. You have to add "when I completely forget to eat
> enough or exercise" after that "later".

That too. I'm trying to avoid those.

> >So I'm basically just shoving extra calories in.
>
> If your protein is near 2g/kilo, and your carbs
> are at least that much, and your calories add up to
> your expenditure, you should be alright for training.

Pretty much. Carbs well over that. Calories are _slightly_ short,

> Unless you like losing the fat, in which case cut your
> diet: drop the fat to 15-20% of cals and make as much of
> it "good fat" as possible--omega 3/6 fats can actually
> encourage fat loss--then lower carb cals to equal or just
> above protein cals, then lower both so that your total
> calories are 300-800 less than your expenditure. 300-800
> cals/day is 2100-5600/week, which is a pound a week, give
> or take a snowball.

I'm currently around 9% fat. I do not like losing the fat right now, being
as I've got to get to about March before it gets warm enough that I don't
have problems losing fat, and if I'm not careful I'll get there at about 4%
fat and with my body munching happily on my muscles. Or just get ill
repeatedly.

> Strength and endurance can increase even as weight
> decreases, but don't expect to build muscle mass or reach
> competition aerobic capabilities while you're cutting fat.

Muscle mass I probably agree with (not much personal experience, but other
people say you're right). As to competition capacity - you can improve while
losing fat. I did last year, for a start. I'm not aware of any study showing
this, but I'm fairly sure (n=1) that if your maintenance calories are
already pretty high, you can lose fat at whatever rate (me, last year, 1.5
to 2 lb/week, for four weeks) without as many adverse consequences as
someone trying to lose fat at the same rate who starts from lower
maintenance calories.

> Man, I hate gym-jabber. The only thing worse than getting
> sucked into it is when two people on the next machine over
> are blabbering like their rides are waiting.

On the up-side, at the times I'm there, it's pretty much my rowing club only
(occasional kayakers, who are also decent guys), and none of us minds.

> One yammering tool this morning almost leaned casually
> ONTO THE BAR OF THE INCLINE BENCH I WAS SITTING ON, WHILE
> I WAS HOLDING IT READY TO LIFT IT!

That is not good, at all. But blame the guy for being a clueless arsehole
who can't chat and look around him.

> If the workouts weren't enough, the bike-commute is worth
> 4,000 cals/week.
>
> If you have time, start paying closer attention to your
> food. Unless you're preternaturally lucky, I bet you'll
> find your carb/protein/fat ratio out of whack, or that
> you're dangerously close to a forced starvation situation
> (more than 800 cals deficit/day) or in one (more than 1000
> cals deficit for more than 2-3 days in a row). If your weight
> is dropping more than 2 lbs/week, you're probably starving out
> and losing muscle.

The ratio is probably not great. But there _is_ enough protein in there,
there is enough veg in there, and I get enough EFAs, and a reasonable amount
of general fat. The rest is a shedload of carbs.

I'm not losing weight at that sort of rate, either (I did a bit earlier this
year, caught it, shoved up the calories again). More like a couple of
hundred grams a week.

Peter

December 8th 04, 05:27 PM
pil wrote:
> I don't have a lot of body fat, its only around my tummy that I have
fat.
> this is because I used to drink a lot of beer. I would like to burn
that fat
> off in a about one month. How should I change my diet to do this and
what
> cardio exercise will work the best for this?
>
> I currently eat : eggs, bread, whey, fat free milk, chicken, beef,
yoghurt..
> I have completely removed any cane sugar sources. The only sugar I
take is
> from fruits that I eat. Which of these foods should I cut out?

Blair P. Houghton
December 9th 04, 12:19 AM
> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:43:14 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>>You'll want to keep your protein higher
>>than the RDAs to make sure your muscles maintain properly
>>(maybe even grow) under a wasting stress
>
>How are your muscles going to grow under a "wasting stress" (catabolic
>state)? When you are catabolic about the best you can ask for is
>minimizing muscle loss or just maintaining if you are lucky.

It's a stress that would waste your muscles if you weren't
loading on protein. You won't be in a bodywide persistent catabolic
state if you're eating right.

Your body is catabolizing and anabolizing proteins all
the time. It's a continuous and stable process.

But, if you go low-protein or Atkins, you won't be able
to put the protein back (because either you lack protein
or you're short on carbs that would help anabolize protein),
and you will enter a bodywide persistent catabolic state.

And really, you will certainly lose muscle if you're
already in athletic muscular condition when you start to
reduce your bodyfat. You just want to lose it slowly as
possible compared with your fat-loss rate.

The growth comes when the muscles aren't quite up to par
when you start exercising. As evidenced by the "massive
gains" almost anyone can make in their first few weeks in
the gym. You'll also tend to grow muscles you're training
at the expense of muscles you ignore.

--Blair
"It's like balancing a jello shot
on your nose."

Blair P. Houghton
December 9th 04, 12:28 AM
Peter Allen > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Peter Allen > wrote:
>> >"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> No, when I'm on my bike, I work as hard as I can (without
>> >> entering a high-carb-burning mode for more than a minute at
>> >> a time), because I always want some sort of accomplishment
>> >> to appear in my log (and I want to finish the ride).
>> >
>> >Surely that means you _aren't_ pushing yourself as hard as possible -
>> >guessing at what you mean by high-carb-burning mode, but I'd imagine you
>>
>> If I went at 100% of MRH I'd go about 5 minutes and keel over, just
>> like everyone else.
>
>Yes - but there is a gap between what you do and 100% MHR, yes?
>
>AT heart rate is usually well below max heart rate (if you try to sit on AT
>power output your heart rate will go up fairly sharply, level off, around 5
>minutes you say that's where AT heart rate is, but it'll continue to drift
>up as you go on). Roughly, AT power output is about what you get if you are
>fit to start with, doing a sport which does not require much strength (for
>you) and you do a perfectly paced, absolute max time trial.
>
>For me (as of about 2 months ago, when I did a step test), on a rowing
>machine:
>MHR 200
>AT 185 (power output 310W)
>UT1 172 (264W)
>UT2 159 (218W)
>
>Power numbers aren't too useful, since you don't row - but you might get
>something from the ratios.

Ya know. If those bozos over at Cateye had put out
the CC-TR100 in the beginning of the summer like they
promised, instead of slipping it first to October and then
to December, I'd be totally up on my breakpoints because
I'd have four programmable alerts to set to tell me what
zones I was in.

Which reminds me I need to e-harass them again.

>> >mean you're sitting around UT1 intensity. Which is certainly not easy
>work,
>> >but it's not the same as sitting on or over your aerobic threshold the
>whole
>> >way (which is something you can't do every day without getting
>overtrained
>> >in short order).
>>
>> I mix stuff up a lot to avoid boredom, and it prevents overtraining.
>
>Not really. You can overtrain without ever repeating a workout, if you
>really want to; it's not a matter of how many times you do the same thing,
>it's the overall work and intensities.

I mix everything up. Aerobics, resistance, hanging out, being sick.

I kinda need to get some more discipline. Winter's got
me all ad-hoc.

>> >> >On the other hand, I'm doing 12 training sessions a week, mainly
>cardio
>> >work
>> >> >(rowing), and it's actually quite hard to eat enough.
>> >>
>> >> You should be paying attention to your ratios. Not enough
>> >> protein and you'll drop muscle. It was the search for
>> >> info on keeping protein in muscle (I thought my legs were
>> >> eating my shoulders; and they were) that led me to learn
>> >> about starvation mode.
>> >
>> >I'm not dropping muscle now (or at least my gym lifts and erg scores are
>> >going up, and I'm not that untrained). I'm just tending to lose fat; and
>of
>> >course the lower my body fat goes the more likely I am to lose muscle
>later.
>>
>> I don't agree. You have to add "when I completely forget to eat
>> enough or exercise" after that "later".
>
>That too. I'm trying to avoid those.
>
>> >So I'm basically just shoving extra calories in.
>>
>> If your protein is near 2g/kilo, and your carbs
>> are at least that much, and your calories add up to
>> your expenditure, you should be alright for training.
>
>Pretty much. Carbs well over that. Calories are _slightly_ short,
>
>> Unless you like losing the fat, in which case cut your
>> diet: drop the fat to 15-20% of cals and make as much of
>> it "good fat" as possible--omega 3/6 fats can actually
>> encourage fat loss--then lower carb cals to equal or just
>> above protein cals, then lower both so that your total
>> calories are 300-800 less than your expenditure. 300-800
>> cals/day is 2100-5600/week, which is a pound a week, give
>> or take a snowball.
>
>I'm currently around 9% fat. I do not like losing the fat right now, being
>as I've got to get to about March before it gets warm enough that I don't
>have problems losing fat, and if I'm not careful I'll get there at about 4%
>fat and with my body munching happily on my muscles. Or just get ill
>repeatedly.

Stop shorting your calories, then. If I was doing
two-a-days, and actually trying to maintain fat, I'd find
a way to eat ice cream a couple of times a week.

>> Strength and endurance can increase even as weight
>> decreases, but don't expect to build muscle mass or reach
>> competition aerobic capabilities while you're cutting fat.
>
>Muscle mass I probably agree with (not much personal experience, but other
>people say you're right). As to competition capacity - you can improve while
>losing fat. I did last year, for a start. I'm not aware of any study showing
>this, but I'm fairly sure (n=1) that if your maintenance calories are
>already pretty high, you can lose fat at whatever rate (me, last year, 1.5
>to 2 lb/week, for four weeks) without as many adverse consequences as
>someone trying to lose fat at the same rate who starts from lower
>maintenance calories.
>
>> Man, I hate gym-jabber. The only thing worse than getting
>> sucked into it is when two people on the next machine over
>> are blabbering like their rides are waiting.
>
>On the up-side, at the times I'm there, it's pretty much my rowing club only
>(occasional kayakers, who are also decent guys), and none of us minds.
>
>> One yammering tool this morning almost leaned casually
>> ONTO THE BAR OF THE INCLINE BENCH I WAS SITTING ON, WHILE
>> I WAS HOLDING IT READY TO LIFT IT!
>
>That is not good, at all. But blame the guy for being a clueless arsehole
>who can't chat and look around him.

I swear the dude looked around for a bartender.

>> If the workouts weren't enough, the bike-commute is worth
>> 4,000 cals/week.
>>
>> If you have time, start paying closer attention to your
>> food. Unless you're preternaturally lucky, I bet you'll
>> find your carb/protein/fat ratio out of whack, or that
>> you're dangerously close to a forced starvation situation
>> (more than 800 cals deficit/day) or in one (more than 1000
>> cals deficit for more than 2-3 days in a row). If your weight
>> is dropping more than 2 lbs/week, you're probably starving out
>> and losing muscle.
>
>The ratio is probably not great. But there _is_ enough protein in there,
>there is enough veg in there, and I get enough EFAs, and a reasonable amount
>of general fat. The rest is a shedload of carbs.
>
>I'm not losing weight at that sort of rate, either (I did a bit earlier this
>year, caught it, shoved up the calories again). More like a couple of
>hundred grams a week.

Yeh. You're on top of it. Just sounds like you need an
extra cheeseburger once in a while.

--Blair
"Problems I wish I had."