PDA

View Full Version : Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?


January 8th 05, 08:25 PM
This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use 4
to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.

The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
is this a bad idea?

John Hanson
January 8th 05, 08:53 PM
On 8 Jan 2005 12:25:14 -0800, wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use 4
>to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>
>The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>is this a bad idea?

Not necessarily for a beginner or an experienced deadlifter who starts
out light and builds up over time. But I doubt it will make you a
better deadlifter. Starting lower also will give you more momentum to
blow through a sticking point that you won't have with normal plates.
For instance, I can pull more from the floor than I can with a rack
pull just below my knees which is also where my sticking point is
normally.

Steve Freides
January 8th 05, 09:16 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> 4
> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>
> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> is this a bad idea?

You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.

I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
hopefully hit a new PR.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

John Hanson
January 8th 05, 09:23 PM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> 4
>> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>>
>> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>> is this a bad idea?
>
>You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
>them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
>
>I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>hopefully hit a new PR.
>
That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
assistance exercises for the deadlift.

Paul Cassel
January 8th 05, 09:57 PM
John Hanson wrote:

> I think reverse band deadlifts

??

Steve Freides
January 8th 05, 10:04 PM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45
>>> lb
>>> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could
>>> use
>>> 4
>>> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>>> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift
>>> over
>>> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>>> weight,
>>> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>>>
>>> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely
>>> help
>>> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>>> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower.
>>> Or
>>> is this a bad idea?
>>
>>You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it
>>helps
>>them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You
>>can
>>do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>>3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>>your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>>thing.
>>
>>I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>>starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>>returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>>hopefully hit a new PR.
>>
> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly,

You don't.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


you haven't
> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>

John Hanson
January 8th 05, 10:06 PM
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:57:49 -0700, Paul Cassel > wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson wrote:
>
>> I think reverse band deadlifts
>
>??

http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/reversebanddeadlift.html

What I like about them is that you maintain your proper form
throughout the movement which is something that is hard to do with
rack pulls. The weight gets increasingly heavier as you pull it so
you must really generate a lot of power to complete the lift when near
a maximum weight.

John Hanson
January 8th 05, 10:16 PM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45
>>>> lb
>>>> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could
>>>> use
>>>> 4
>>>> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>>>> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift
>>>> over
>>>> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>>>> weight,
>>>> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>>>>
>>>> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely
>>>> help
>>>> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>>>> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower.
>>>> Or
>>>> is this a bad idea?
>>>
>>>You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it
>>>helps
>>>them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You
>>>can
>>>do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>>>3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>>>your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>>>thing.
>>>
>>>I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>>>starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>>>returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>>>hopefully hit a new PR.
>>>
>> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly,
>
>You don't.
>
So what are your numbers like now compared to, say, two years ago?

geek_girl
January 8th 05, 10:35 PM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> From: John Hanson >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> >> 4
> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >>
> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> >> is this a bad idea?
> >
> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
> >
> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >
> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> assistance exercises for the deadlift.

But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
the floor.

If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
else I could do.

John Hanson
January 8th 05, 11:12 PM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>
>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> From: John Hanson >
>> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> >> 4
>> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >>
>> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>> >> is this a bad idea?
>> >
>> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
>> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
>> >
>> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >
>> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>
>But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>the floor.

I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
or above the knee?

You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.

I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
>
>If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>else I could do.

Keith Hobman
January 8th 05, 11:51 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:57:49 -0700, Paul Cassel > wrote
> in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >John Hanson wrote:
> >
> >> I think reverse band deadlifts
> >
> >??
>
> http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/reversebanddeadlift.html
>
> What I like about them is that you maintain your proper form
> throughout the movement which is something that is hard to do with
> rack pulls. The weight gets increasingly heavier as you pull it so
> you must really generate a lot of power to complete the lift when near
> a maximum weight.

Yeah, but you are weak coming over the knees. So reverse band and rack
pulls from the sticking point are good assistance for you. If a person is
weak off the floor extended ROM pulls are good assistance.

Keith Hobman
January 8th 05, 11:58 PM
In article >, geek_girl
> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > From: John Hanson >
> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >
> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> > >> 4
> > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> > >>
> > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> > >> is this a bad idea?
> > >
> > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
> > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
> > >
> > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > >
> > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>
> But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> the floor.
>
> If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> else I could do.

If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel. I don't see the point of rack
pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
them you needed to address an area and did so very well.

You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.

You can also box squat and set the box so that you thighs are about the
same angle as your starting point in the deadlift.

Keith Hobman
January 9th 05, 12:01 AM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> From: John Hanson >
> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >>
> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> >> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> >> >> 4
> >> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> >> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> >> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> >> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >>
> >> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> >> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> >> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> >> >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >
> >> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
> >> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> >> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> >> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> >> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
> >> >
> >> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> >> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> >> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> >> >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >
> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >
> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> >the floor.
>
> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
> deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
> or above the knee?

RDC also used deadlifts standing on plates and exercises like that as
assistance.
>
> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.

I disagree. But don't add more than an inch or two to your ROM.
>
> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.

You also use a suit, which makes a difference as well.
> >
> >If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> >and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> >else I could do.

See my previous post.

geek_girl
January 9th 05, 12:03 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:12:59 -0600
> From: John Hanson >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> From: John Hanson >
> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >>
> >> >
> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >
> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> >the floor.
>
> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
> deadlift should be the floor.

Well, yeah, but doesn't he mean something a little different by that? I
would think what he means by that is that if you can't lift it, it's
because it's just too much weight, and that if you can get it off the
floor, there shouldn't be any sticking points in between the floor and
lockout. IOW you should be equally strong throughout the lift. But I think
I have a true sticking point from the floor, i.e. I'm much weaker from the
floor than the rest of the ROM. I mean before I stopped lifting from the
floor and doing rack pulls exclusively, I was able to lift 160-170 from
the floor.

> What height are you doing your rack
> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
> or above the knee?

A couple of inches below the knee, right below the sticking point.

> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.

Well, I've been thinking about what you said about lifting from lower
generating more momentum and getting you through your sticking point, and
I'm not sure I want to do that. I guess I'll go back to regular DLs on
moderate days and stick with the rack pulls on heavy days.

> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.

I'm not sure they'd do much for me, at least not at this point. But if I
get bored I'll give em a shot.

geek_girl
January 9th 05, 12:10 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> From: Keith Hobman >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> In article >, geek_girl
> > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > > From: John Hanson >
> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > >
> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> > > >> 4
> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> > > >>
> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> > > >
> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
> > > >
> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > > >
> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >
> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> > the floor.
> >
> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> > else I could do.
>
> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.

You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?

> I don't see the point of rack
> pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
> are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
> them you needed to address an area and did so very well.

Right. I just didn't want it to come back. But I guess I should
concentrate on the problem I have now, and worry about that if/when it
happens.

> You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
> the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
> transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
> tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.

I've tried sumo DLs, and they hurt my hips, in a bad way - not the muscle
but the joint. Any idea what I might have been doing wrong?

> You can also box squat and set the box so that you thighs are about the
> same angle as your starting point in the deadlift.

Yeah, I need to find/make a box.

Now can you help me with my bench?

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 12:18 AM
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> From: John Hanson >
>> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> oups.com...
>> >> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> >> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> >> >> 4
>> >> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> >> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>> >> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>> >> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>> >> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> >> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>> >> >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >
>> >> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
>> >> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>> >> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> >> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>> >> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
>> >> >
>> >> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> >> >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >
>> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >
>> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>> >the floor.
>>
>> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
>> deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
>> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
>> or above the knee?
>
>RDC also used deadlifts standing on plates and exercises like that as
>assistance.
>>
>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>
>I disagree. But don't add more than an inch or two to your ROM.

Then why not add more than two inches? By using plates, you are
generating speed at the bottom and getting momentum up from the normal
starting position.
>>
>> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
>> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
>> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
>> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
>> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
>> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
>> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
>> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
>> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
>> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
>
>You also use a suit, which makes a difference as well.

No, it doesn't. Not in this case.

>> >
>> >If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>> >and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>> >else I could do.
>
>See my previous post.

geek_girl
January 9th 05, 12:18 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> From: Keith Hobman >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> In article >, geek_girl
> > wrote:
> >
> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> > the floor.
> >
> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> > else I could do.
>
> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.

Question - by "highbar squats", do you also mean narrow stance? I still
don't have 100% ROM in my ankle, and I'm not sure how narrow I can go and
still get below parallel. Although maybe trying it (carefully) would be a
good way to get back that last little bit of ROM.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 12:20 AM
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:51:45 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:57:49 -0700, Paul Cassel > wrote
>> in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >John Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think reverse band deadlifts
>> >
>> >??
>>
>> http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/reversebanddeadlift.html
>>
>> What I like about them is that you maintain your proper form
>> throughout the movement which is something that is hard to do with
>> rack pulls. The weight gets increasingly heavier as you pull it so
>> you must really generate a lot of power to complete the lift when near
>> a maximum weight.
>
>Yeah, but you are weak coming over the knees. So reverse band and rack
>pulls from the sticking point are good assistance for you. If a person is
>weak off the floor extended ROM pulls are good assistance.

I disagree. Reverse bands are good for people who's sticking point is
at the floor also. They're better than extended ROM pulls.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 12:23 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:03:10 -0600, geek_girl
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>
>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:12:59 -0600
>> From: John Hanson >
>> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> From: John Hanson >
>> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >
>> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>> >the floor.
>>
>> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
>> deadlift should be the floor.
>
>Well, yeah, but doesn't he mean something a little different by that? I
>would think what he means by that is that if you can't lift it, it's
>because it's just too much weight, and that if you can get it off the
>floor, there shouldn't be any sticking points in between the floor and
>lockout. IOW you should be equally strong throughout the lift. But I think
>I have a true sticking point from the floor, i.e. I'm much weaker from the
>floor than the rest of the ROM. I mean before I stopped lifting from the
>floor and doing rack pulls exclusively, I was able to lift 160-170 from
>the floor.

Yes.

>
>> What height are you doing your rack
>> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
>> or above the knee?
>
>A couple of inches below the knee, right below the sticking point.
>
>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>
>Well, I've been thinking about what you said about lifting from lower
>generating more momentum and getting you through your sticking point, and
>I'm not sure I want to do that. I guess I'll go back to regular DLs on
>moderate days and stick with the rack pulls on heavy days.

Why not?

>
>> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
>> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
>> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
>> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
>> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
>> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
>> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
>> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
>> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
>> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
>
>I'm not sure they'd do much for me, at least not at this point. But if I
>get bored I'll give em a shot.

You only need to fail a couple of times before your body tries to
generate more force off the floor to "cheat" you through that sticking
point.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 12:27 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>
>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> From: Keith Hobman >
>> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>>
>> In article >, geek_girl
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> > > From: John Hanson >
>> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> > >
>> > > > wrote in message
>> > > oups.com...
>> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> > > >> 4
>> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> > > >
>> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
>> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
>> > > >
>> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> > > >
>> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >
>> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>> > the floor.
>> >
>> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>> > else I could do.
>>
>> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>
>You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?

Keith and I are disagreeing with one another. Go ahead and do that
but I think you would be better off with the reverse bands.

>
>> I don't see the point of rack
>> pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
>> are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
>> them you needed to address an area and did so very well.
>
>Right. I just didn't want it to come back. But I guess I should
>concentrate on the problem I have now, and worry about that if/when it
>happens.

I don't see the point of rack pulls for you either.
>
>> You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
>> the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
>> transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
>> tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.
>
>I've tried sumo DLs, and they hurt my hips, in a bad way - not the muscle
>but the joint. Any idea what I might have been doing wrong?

It takes a long time to adjust to sumo. You really need to lower the
weight and work on form. My hips usually hurt a tiny bit as I start
to warm up probably due to tightness. That's why I do so many warm
ups with the deadlift.
>
>> You can also box squat and set the box so that you thighs are about the
>> same angle as your starting point in the deadlift.
>
>Yeah, I need to find/make a box.
>
>Now can you help me with my bench?

geek_girl
January 9th 05, 12:31 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> From: John Hanson >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >>
> >> In article >, geek_girl
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> > >
> >> > > > wrote in message
> >> > > oups.com...
> >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> >> > > >> 4
> >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
> >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
> >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
> >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
> >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> > > >
> >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
> >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> > > >
> >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >
> >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> >> > the floor.
> >> >
> >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> >> > else I could do.
> >>
> >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >
> >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
>
> Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.

So I see.

> Go ahead and do that
> but I think you would be better off with the reverse bands.

I just don't see how that would help, since they don't really make you
work as much from the floor, and not working from the floor is what
started the problem.

> >
> >> I don't see the point of rack
> >> pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
> >> are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
> >> them you needed to address an area and did so very well.
> >
> >Right. I just didn't want it to come back. But I guess I should
> >concentrate on the problem I have now, and worry about that if/when it
> >happens.
>
> I don't see the point of rack pulls for you either.

Ok, something you both agree on. I think you're right about this one.

> >> You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
> >> the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
> >> transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
> >> tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.
> >
> >I've tried sumo DLs, and they hurt my hips, in a bad way - not the muscle
> >but the joint. Any idea what I might have been doing wrong?
>
> It takes a long time to adjust to sumo.

Well, I don't have a lot of time right now. I have a meet on Feb 12.

> You really need to lower the
> weight and work on form. My hips usually hurt a tiny bit as I start
> to warm up probably due to tightness. That's why I do so many warm
> ups with the deadlift.

I did lower the weight a lot, and it still hurt. It may be that I have
some joint issues from being a lopsided mutant for so long. I'm pretty
sure the ankle problem worked its way up to my knees, and it could have
gotten up to my hips as well.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 12:46 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:31:37 -0600, geek_girl
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>
>
>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> From: John Hanson >
>> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >>
>> >> In article >, geek_girl
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> > > oups.com...
>> >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> >> > > >> 4
>> >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>> >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>> >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>> >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>> >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it helps
>> >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>> >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>> >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same thing.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >
>> >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>> >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>> >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>> >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>> >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>> >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>> >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>> >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>> >> > the floor.
>> >> >
>> >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>> >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>> >> > else I could do.
>> >>
>> >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >
>> >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
>>
>> Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>
>So I see.
>
>> Go ahead and do that
>> but I think you would be better off with the reverse bands.
>
>I just don't see how that would help, since they don't really make you
>work as much from the floor, and not working from the floor is what
>started the problem.

Seems most people can't understand the logic. The thing is, you do
have to generate more power off the floor in order to lock the weight
out. You do it with the exact same form as you use during normal
deadlifts and from the exact same height. Conversely, you generally
use a lower weight while deadlifting off of blocks which makes the
lighter weight thingy moot.


>
>> >
>> >> I don't see the point of rack
>> >> pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
>> >> are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
>> >> them you needed to address an area and did so very well.
>> >
>> >Right. I just didn't want it to come back. But I guess I should
>> >concentrate on the problem I have now, and worry about that if/when it
>> >happens.
>>
>> I don't see the point of rack pulls for you either.
>
>Ok, something you both agree on. I think you're right about this one.
>
>> >> You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
>> >> the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
>> >> transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
>> >> tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.
>> >
>> >I've tried sumo DLs, and they hurt my hips, in a bad way - not the muscle
>> >but the joint. Any idea what I might have been doing wrong?
>>
>> It takes a long time to adjust to sumo.
>
>Well, I don't have a lot of time right now. I have a meet on Feb 12.

Hey, me too! I wouldn't switch now either.

>
>> You really need to lower the
>> weight and work on form. My hips usually hurt a tiny bit as I start
>> to warm up probably due to tightness. That's why I do so many warm
>> ups with the deadlift.
>
>I did lower the weight a lot, and it still hurt. It may be that I have
>some joint issues from being a lopsided mutant for so long. I'm pretty
>sure the ankle problem worked its way up to my knees, and it could have
>gotten up to my hips as well.

That sounded sexual to me for some reason.

Steve Freides
January 9th 05, 02:59 AM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45
>>>>> lb
>>>>> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could
>>>>> use
>>>>> 4
>>>>> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I
>>>>> could
>>>>> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift
>>>>> over
>>>>> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>>>>> weight,
>>>>> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely
>>>>> help
>>>>> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>>>>> weight,
>>>>> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower.
>>>>> Or
>>>>> is this a bad idea?
>>>>
>>>>You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it
>>>>helps
>>>>them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You
>>>>can
>>>>do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>>>>3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them
>>>>under
>>>>your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>>>>thing.
>>>>
>>>>I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>>>>starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>>>>returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>>>>hopefully hit a new PR.
>>>>
>>> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly,
>>
>>You don't.
>>
> So what are your numbers like now compared to, say, two years ago?

A quick look at the exercise log from two years ago shows a 1RM of 325.
This fall I did 315 x 8, 325 x 4, and 350 x 2 in training and should be
good for a 1RM of about 370 or so although I haven't attempted a new max
lately except at the AAU meet a month ago when my third DL attempt was
very late and I just wasn't psyched. I did get my second which was 347
lbs. I'm very satisfied with that kind of progress at my age and weight
and with my back history.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides
January 9th 05, 03:01 AM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> From: John Hanson >
>> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good
>> >> idea?
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> oups.com...
>> >> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical
>> >> >> 45 lb
>> >> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
>> >> >> could use
>> >> >> 4
>> >> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>> >> >> deadlift over
>> >> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>> >> >> weight,
>> >> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >> >> definitely help
>> >> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>> >> >> weight,
>> >> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>> >> >> lower. Or
>> >> >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >
>> >> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find
>> >> >it helps
>> >> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer.
>> >> >You can
>> >> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a
>> >> >few
>> >> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them
>> >> >under
>> >> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>> >> >thing.
>> >> >
>> >> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle
>> >> >to
>> >> >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >
>> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
>> >> haven't
>> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of
>> >> years.
>> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >
>> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
>> >sticking
>> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
>> >point is
>> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can
>> >do rack
>> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the
>> >floor
>> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
>> >heavy DL
>> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of
>> >a
>> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs
>> >in an
>> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the
>> >floor
>> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>> >Autoregulating
>> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy
>> >days to
>> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days
>> >so
>> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway)
>> >from
>> >the floor.
>>
>> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
>> deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
>> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
>> or above the knee?
>
> RDC also used deadlifts standing on plates and exercises like that as
> assistance.
>>
>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>
> I disagree. But don't add more than an inch or two to your ROM.

FWIW, that's just what I do. I use 3 x 3/4" plywood, which is 2-1/4"
total. That's the max elevation I use.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started
>> with
>> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
>> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
>> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then
>> waited
>> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
>> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure
>> enough,
>> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think
>> the
>> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
>> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
>> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
>
> You also use a suit, which makes a difference as well.
>> >
>> >If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or
>> >Keith
>> >and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me
>> >what
>> >else I could do.
>
> See my previous post.

Bob Mann
January 9th 05, 03:09 AM
On 8 Jan 2005 12:25:14 -0800, wrote:

>This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use 4
>to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift over
>about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of weight,
>so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>
>The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely help
>me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower. Or
>is this a bad idea?

Okay.
I've read some of the replies and here is what I think.

I depends on what you are looking for.
Going lower in the starting position can help you with your starting
speed but...
You have to use a lower weight and lift for speed.
There really isn't any need to go to 25 lb weights. Just lifting off a
pair of plates or a 1" to 2" platform is plenty.

Personally, I rarely do any lifting from lower than a 45 lb plate
height and I don't think it has hurt me any.
Training intelligently and intensely is what it takes.

When I have done platform lifts, it has usually been with a lighter
weight and after the main lifting is done.

If you are just doing this for exercise, there is no need to extend
the range at all unless you are really worried about your hamstrings
and butt and want to enlarge them.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 04:42 AM
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:59:32 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:04:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>>>> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>>> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45
>>>>>> lb
>>>>>> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't deadlift
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>>>>>> weight,
>>>>>> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The whole point is I think having to start lower would definitely
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>>>>>> weight,
>>>>>> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is lower.
>>>>>> Or
>>>>>> is this a bad idea?
>>>>>
>>>>>You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find it
>>>>>helps
>>>>>them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You
>>>>>can
>>>>>do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>>>>>3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them
>>>>>under
>>>>>your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>>>>>thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>>>>>starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>>>>>returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>>>>>hopefully hit a new PR.
>>>>>
>>>> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly,
>>>
>>>You don't.
>>>
>> So what are your numbers like now compared to, say, two years ago?
>
>A quick look at the exercise log from two years ago shows a 1RM of 325.
>This fall I did 315 x 8, 325 x 4, and 350 x 2 in training and should be
>good for a 1RM of about 370 or so although I haven't attempted a new max
>lately except at the AAU meet a month ago when my third DL attempt was
>very late and I just wasn't psyched. I did get my second which was 347
>lbs. I'm very satisfied with that kind of progress at my age and weight
>and with my back history.
>
So in other words, it went up 22 pounds.

Peter Allen
January 9th 05, 12:09 PM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
>>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>
> You only need to fail a couple of times before your body tries to
> generate more force off the floor to "cheat" you through that sticking
> point.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is only true if SJ has a sticking point
somewhere other than off the floor.

If you're in the situation where if the bar gets an inch off the floor
you're definitely going to get it all the way up (which is pretty much true
for me), then I don't see how you can possibly use momentum to get through
that.

Peter

Keith Hobman
January 9th 05, 02:14 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> From: John Hanson >
> >> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >>
> >> >> > wrote in message
> >> >> oups.com...
> >> >> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
> >> >> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
> >> >> >> 4
> >> >> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
> >> >> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
deadlift over
> >> >> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
weight,
> >> >> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
definitely help
> >> >> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
> >> >> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
lower. Or
> >> >> >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find
it helps
> >> >> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
> >> >> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> >> >> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
> >> >> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
thing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> >> >> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> >> >> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> >> >> >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> >
> >> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
> >> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> >> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >
> >> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> >> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> >> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> >> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> >> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> >> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> >> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> >> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> >> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> >> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> >> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> >> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> >> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> >> >the floor.
> >>
> >> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
> >> deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
> >> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
> >> or above the knee?
> >
> >RDC also used deadlifts standing on plates and exercises like that as
> >assistance.
> >>
> >> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
> >> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
> >> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
> >> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
> >> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
> >
> >I disagree. But don't add more than an inch or two to your ROM.
>
> Then why not add more than two inches? By using plates, you are
> generating speed at the bottom and getting momentum up from the normal
> starting position.

Nope. With only an inch or two you aren't getting any speed. You are
teaching the person to sink into the start and keep the stomach pushed.
> >>
> >> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
> >> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
> >> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
> >> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
> >> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
> >> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
> >> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
> >> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
> >> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
> >> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
> >
> >You also use a suit, which makes a difference as well.
>
> No, it doesn't. Not in this case.
>
> >> >
> >> >If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> >> >and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> >> >else I could do.
> >
> >See my previous post.

Keith Hobman
January 9th 05, 02:16 PM
In article >, geek_girl
> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> > From: Keith Hobman >
> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >
> > In article >, geek_girl
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> > > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> > > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
> > > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
> > > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
> > > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
> > > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> > > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
> > > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
> > > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> > > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
> > > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> > > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
> > > the floor.
> > >
> > > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> > > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> > > else I could do.
> >
> > If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> > deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>
> Question - by "highbar squats", do you also mean narrow stance? I still
> don't have 100% ROM in my ankle, and I'm not sure how narrow I can go and
> still get below parallel. Although maybe trying it (carefully) would be a
> good way to get back that last little bit of ROM.

Yup. But you only need to get to just below parallel.

Keith Hobman
January 9th 05, 02:22 PM
In article >, geek_girl
> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>
> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> > From: John Hanson >
> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >
> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > >
> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > >>
> > >> In article >, geek_girl
> > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > wrote in message
> > >> > > oups.com...
> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
typical 45 lb
> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
could use
> > >> > > >> 4
> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
I could
> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
deadlift over
> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
of weight,
> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
definitely help
> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
weight,
> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
lower. Or
> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
find it helps
> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
longer. You can
> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
them under
> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
same thing.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
haven't
> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> > >> >
> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
point is
> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
can do rack
> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
the floor
> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
heavy DL
> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
GMs in an
> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
the floor
> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
heavy days to
> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
anyway) from
> > >> > the floor.
> > >> >
> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> > >> > else I could do.
> > >>
> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> > >
> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
> >
> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.

You could try both.

Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.

As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.

Jeff Finlayson
January 9th 05, 03:23 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:
> geek_girl wrote:

....
>>But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>>point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>>deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>>the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>>pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>>is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>>days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>>sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>>attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>>was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>>Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>>keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>>maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>>the floor.

> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel. I don't see the point of rack
> pulls with supramaximal weight if the goals is to deadlift more and you
> are that much weaker off the floor. But obviously at the time you started
> them you needed to address an area and did so very well.
>
> You may also want to try wide stance sumo deadlifts. Often the problem off
> the floor is that the abs aren't being pushed hard enough and you lose
> transfer of leg strength. You have to learn to keep the midsection very
> tight and the wide stance sumo is good for that.
>
> You can also box squat and set the box so that you thighs are about the
> same angle as your starting point in the deadlift.

Combine 2 of those. Do the box squat high bar. Use a stance width
similar to one's deadlift stance and use a parallel box height or a
bit higher. I've done these a couple cycles and have gotten good
boosts in my DL then.

geek_girl
January 9th 05, 07:01 PM
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:

> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600
> From: Keith Hobman >
> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>
> In article >, geek_girl
> > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> > > From: John Hanson >
> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > >
> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> > > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> > > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > > >>
> > > >> In article >, geek_girl
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> > > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> > > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > wrote in message
> > > >> > > oups.com...
> > > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
> typical 45 lb
> > > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
> could use
> > > >> > > >> 4
> > > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
> I could
> > > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
> deadlift over
> > > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
> of weight,
> > > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> > > >> > > >>
> > > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
> definitely help
> > > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
> weight,
> > > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
> lower. Or
> > > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
> find it helps
> > > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
> longer. You can
> > > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
> > > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
> them under
> > > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
> same thing.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> > > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> > > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
> > > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
> haven't
> > > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
> > > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> > > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
> > > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> > > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
> point is
> > > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
> can do rack
> > > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
> the floor
> > > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
> heavy DL
> > > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
> > > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
> GMs in an
> > > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
> the floor
> > > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
> > > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
> heavy days to
> > > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
> > > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
> anyway) from
> > > >> > the floor.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
> > > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
> > > >> > else I could do.
> > > >>
> > > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> > > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> > > >
> > > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> > > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
> > >
> > > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>
> You could try both.
>
> Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.

I could, but I think I'll hold off on the bands for a while.

> As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
> ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.

Makes sense to me.

Anyway, thanks to both of you, and I'll let you know how it works out.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 07:59 PM
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:09:32 -0000, "Peter Allen"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
>>>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>>>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>>>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>>>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>>>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>>
>> You only need to fail a couple of times before your body tries to
>> generate more force off the floor to "cheat" you through that sticking
>> point.
>
>Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is only true if SJ has a sticking point
>somewhere other than off the floor.
>
>If you're in the situation where if the bar gets an inch off the floor
>you're definitely going to get it all the way up (which is pretty much true
>for me), then I don't see how you can possibly use momentum to get through
>that.
>
Becuase the bar continually gets heavier so you will need to develop
more power right away.

John Hanson
January 9th 05, 08:00 PM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:14:56 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:01:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article >, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:35:30 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> >> From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> >> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > wrote in message
>> >> >> oups.com...
>> >> >> >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the typical 45 lb
>> >> >> >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I could use
>> >> >> >> 4
>> >> >> >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way, I could
>> >> >> >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>deadlift over
>> >> >> >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount of
>weight,
>> >> >> >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>definitely help
>> >> >> >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of weight,
>> >> >> >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>lower. Or
>> >> >> >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people find
>it helps
>> >> >> >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for longer. You can
>> >> >> >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> >> >> >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack them under
>> >> >> >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the same
>thing.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> >> >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> >> >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> >> >> >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you haven't
>> >> >> had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> >> >> I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> >> assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >
>> >> >But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> >> >point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >> >deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking point is
>> >> >the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I can do rack
>> >> >pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then the floor
>> >> >is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my heavy DL
>> >> >days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> >> >sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing GMs in an
>> >> >attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from the floor
>> >> >was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> >> >Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my heavy days to
>> >> >keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> >> >maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me, anyway) from
>> >> >the floor.
>> >>
>> >> I believe it was RDC who said that your sticking point for the
>> >> deadlift should be the floor. What height are you doing your rack
>> >> pulls from? Is it a couple of inches below the knee? at the knee?
>> >> or above the knee?
>> >
>> >RDC also used deadlifts standing on plates and exercises like that as
>> >assistance.
>> >>
>> >> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>> >> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>> >> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>> >> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>> >> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>> >
>> >I disagree. But don't add more than an inch or two to your ROM.
>>
>> Then why not add more than two inches? By using plates, you are
>> generating speed at the bottom and getting momentum up from the normal
>> starting position.
>
>Nope. With only an inch or two you aren't getting any speed. You are
>teaching the person to sink into the start and keep the stomach pushed.

Ummm, yes you are.

>> >>
>> >> I was doing reverse bands last week after deadlifting. I started with
>> >> 445 for 5 and then went to 495 for 5. I figure the bands take about
>> >> 100-125 pounds off at the floor and about 25 at the top the way they
>> >> were set up. So I attempt 545 and it died at my knees. I then waited
>> >> about 5 minutes and tried it again. This time I concentrated on
>> >> pulling as fast and as hard as I could from the floor and sure enough,
>> >> I locked it out (I did hitch it a bit though at the top). I think the
>> >> bands are going to help me (just started doing them again so the jury
>> >> is still out. They have worked well for me in the past.) all the way
>> >> through the movement and not just at my sticking point.
>> >
>> >You also use a suit, which makes a difference as well.
>>
>> No, it doesn't. Not in this case.
>>
>> >> >
>> >> >If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>> >> >and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>> >> >else I could do.
>> >
>> >See my previous post.

Bob Mann
January 10th 05, 01:18 AM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article >, geek_girl
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> > From: John Hanson >
>> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >
>> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> > >>
>> > >> In article >, geek_girl
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> > >> > > oups.com...
>> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
>typical 45 lb
>> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
>could use
>> > >> > > >> 4
>> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
>I could
>> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>deadlift over
>> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
>of weight,
>> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> > >> > > >>
>> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>definitely help
>> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>weight,
>> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>lower. Or
>> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
>find it helps
>> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>longer. You can
>> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get yourself a few
>> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
>them under
>> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
>same thing.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the cycle to
>> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
>haven't
>> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple of years.
>> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your sticking
>> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
>point is
>> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
>can do rack
>> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
>the floor
>> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
>heavy DL
>> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get rid of a
>> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
>GMs in an
>> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
>the floor
>> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian Autoregulating
>> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
>heavy days to
>> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate days so
>> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>anyway) from
>> > >> > the floor.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you (and/or Keith
>> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about) telling me what
>> > >> > else I could do.
>> > >>
>> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> > >
>> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
>> >
>> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>
>You could try both.
>
>Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>
>As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
>ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.

And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
speed.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

Keith Hobman
January 10th 05, 03:42 AM
In article >, wrote:

> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >In article >, geek_girl
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >>
> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> In article >, geek_girl
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
good idea?
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> > >> > > oups.com...
> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
> >typical 45 lb
> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
> >could use
> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
> >I could
> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
> >deadlift over
> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
> >of weight,
> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> > >> > > >>
> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
> >definitely help
> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
> >weight,
> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
> >lower. Or
> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
> >find it helps
> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
> >longer. You can
> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
yourself a few
> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
> >them under
> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
> >same thing.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
cycle to
> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
> >haven't
> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
of years.
> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
sticking
> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
> >point is
> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
> >can do rack
> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
> >the floor
> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
> >heavy DL
> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
rid of a
> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
> >GMs in an
> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
> >the floor
> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
Autoregulating
> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
> >heavy days to
> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
days so
> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
> >anyway) from
> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
(and/or Keith
> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
telling me what
> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> > >
> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
> >> >
> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >
> >You could try both.
> >
> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
> >
> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
>
> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
> speed.

Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
in speed work AFAIK.

John Hanson
January 10th 05, 04:57 AM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >, geek_girl
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> In article >, geek_girl
>> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>good idea?
>> >> > >> > >
>> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> > >> > >
>> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> > >> > > oups.com...
>> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
>> >typical 45 lb
>> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
>> >could use
>> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
>> >I could
>> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>> >deadlift over
>> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
>> >of weight,
>> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >definitely help
>> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>> >weight,
>> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>> >lower. Or
>> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
>> >find it helps
>> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>> >longer. You can
>> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>yourself a few
>> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
>> >them under
>> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
>> >same thing.
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
>cycle to
>> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
>> >haven't
>> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
>of years.
>> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
>sticking
>> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
>> >point is
>> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
>> >can do rack
>> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
>> >the floor
>> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
>> >heavy DL
>> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
>rid of a
>> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
>> >GMs in an
>> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
>> >the floor
>> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>Autoregulating
>> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
>> >heavy days to
>> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
>days so
>> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>> >anyway) from
>> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>(and/or Keith
>> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>telling me what
>> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
>> >> >
>> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >
>> >You could try both.
>> >
>> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >
>> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
>> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
>>
>> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
>> speed.
>
>Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
>in speed work AFAIK.

It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.

Bob Mann
January 10th 05, 05:24 AM
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article >, wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >, geek_girl
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> In article >, geek_girl
>> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>good idea?
>> >> > >> > >
>> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> > >> > >
>> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> > >> > > oups.com...
>> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
>> >typical 45 lb
>> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
>> >could use
>> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
>> >I could
>> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>> >deadlift over
>> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
>> >of weight,
>> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >definitely help
>> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>> >weight,
>> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>> >lower. Or
>> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
>> >find it helps
>> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>> >longer. You can
>> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>yourself a few
>> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
>> >them under
>> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
>> >same thing.
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of my DL's -
>> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle, gradually
>> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
>cycle to
>> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> > >> > > >
>> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
>> >haven't
>> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
>of years.
>> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
>sticking
>> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or reverse band
>> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
>> >point is
>> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
>> >can do rack
>> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
>> >the floor
>> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
>> >heavy DL
>> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
>rid of a
>> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
>> >GMs in an
>> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
>> >the floor
>> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>Autoregulating
>> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
>> >heavy days to
>> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
>days so
>> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>> >anyway) from
>> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>(and/or Keith
>> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>telling me what
>> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the heavy days?
>> >> >
>> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >
>> >You could try both.
>> >
>> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >
>> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
>> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
>>
>> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
>> speed.
>
>Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
>in speed work AFAIK.

No, but he backs off the weight so you can still lift explosively.
--
Bob Mann
Help save trees. Wipe your ass with an owl.

Peter Allen
January 10th 05, 10:45 AM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:09:32 -0000, "Peter Allen"
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>><snip>
>>>>> You can do your deadlifts off of blocks but I still think you are
>>>>> better off pulling from the floor and/or using bands. Women and
>>>>> skinny guys will have an easier time staying in form off blocks so
>>>>> that would be a plus for you. But, like I said, I think it's better
>>>>> to try to generate your power from a normal deadlift height.
>>>
>>> You only need to fail a couple of times before your body tries to
>>> generate more force off the floor to "cheat" you through that sticking
>>> point.
>>
>>Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is only true if SJ has a sticking point
>>somewhere other than off the floor.
>>
>>If you're in the situation where if the bar gets an inch off the floor
>>you're definitely going to get it all the way up (which is pretty much
>>true
>>for me), then I don't see how you can possibly use momentum to get through
>>that.
>>
> Becuase the bar continually gets heavier so you will need to develop
> more power right away.

OK, I get what you're referring to now.

Sorry, was having a stupid moment.

Peter

Keith Hobman
January 10th 05, 01:54 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >,
wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >, geek_girl
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
good idea?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> In article >, geek_girl
> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >good idea?
> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> >> > >> > > oups.com...
> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
> >> >typical 45 lb
> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
> >> >could use
> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
> >> >I could
> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
> >> >deadlift over
> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
> >> >of weight,
> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
> >> >definitely help
> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
> >> >weight,
> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
> >> >lower. Or
> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
> >> >find it helps
> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
> >> >longer. You can
> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
> >yourself a few
> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
> >> >them under
> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
> >> >same thing.
> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
my DL's -
> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
gradually
> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
> >cycle to
> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
> >> >haven't
> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
> >of years.
> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
> >sticking
> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
reverse band
> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
> >> >point is
> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
> >> >can do rack
> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
> >> >the floor
> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
> >> >heavy DL
> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
> >rid of a
> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
> >> >GMs in an
> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
> >> >the floor
> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
> >Autoregulating
> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
> >> >heavy days to
> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
> >days so
> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
> >> >anyway) from
> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
> >(and/or Keith
> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
> >telling me what
> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
heavy days?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >> >
> >> >You could try both.
> >> >
> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
> >> >
> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
> >>
> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
> >> speed.
> >
> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
> >in speed work AFAIK.
>
> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.

I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
extended ROM deadlifts.

The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.

John Hanson
January 10th 05, 02:14 PM
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article >,
wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article >, geek_girl
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a good idea?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>good idea?
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> In article >, geek_girl
>> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >good idea?
>> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> >> > >> > > oups.com...
>> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
>> >> >typical 45 lb
>> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when deadlifting, I
>> >> >could use
>> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights. This way,
>> >> >I could
>> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>> >> >deadlift over
>> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the same amount
>> >> >of weight,
>> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >> >definitely help
>> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal amount of
>> >> >weight,
>> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one that is
>> >> >lower. Or
>> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
>> >> >find it helps
>> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>> >> >longer. You can
>> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>> >yourself a few
>> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
>> >> >them under
>> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to accomplish the
>> >> >same thing.
>> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
>my DL's -
>> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
>gradually
>> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
>> >cycle to
>> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember correctly, you
>> >> >haven't
>> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
>> >of years.
>> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
>> >sticking
>> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
>reverse band
>> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my sticking
>> >> >point is
>> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
>> >> >can do rack
>> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the floor, then
>> >> >the floor
>> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened because on my
>> >> >heavy DL
>> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
>> >rid of a
>> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I was doing
>> >> >GMs in an
>> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was DLing from
>> >> >the floor
>> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>> >Autoregulating
>> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
>> >> >heavy days to
>> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
>> >days so
>> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>> >> >anyway) from
>> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>> >(and/or Keith
>> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>> >telling me what
>> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do extended ROM
>> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
>heavy days?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >> >
>> >> >You could try both.
>> >> >
>> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >> >
>> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use extended
>> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
>> >>
>> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
>> >> speed.
>> >
>> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
>> >in speed work AFAIK.
>>
>> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
>> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
>> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
>> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
>> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
>> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>
>I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
>extended ROM deadlifts.
>
>The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
>floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
>There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
>more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
>lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.

What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
right away.

Keith Hobman
January 10th 05, 10:11 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
good idea?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >good idea?
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
geek_girl
> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> >> >> > >> > >
oups.com...
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
deadlifting, I
> >> >> >could use
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
This way,
> >> >> >I could
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
> >> >> >deadlift over
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
same amount
> >> >> >of weight,
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
> >> >> >definitely help
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
amount of
> >> >> >weight,
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
that is
> >> >> >lower. Or
> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
> >> >> >find it helps
> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
> >> >> >longer. You can
> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
> >> >yourself a few
> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
> >> >> >them under
> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
accomplish the
> >> >> >same thing.
> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
> >my DL's -
> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
> >gradually
> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
> >> >cycle to
> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
correctly, you
> >> >> >haven't
> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
> >> >of years.
> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
> >reverse band
> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
sticking
> >> >> >point is
> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
> >> >> >can do rack
> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
floor, then
> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
because on my
> >> >> >heavy DL
> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
> >> >rid of a
> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
was doing
> >> >> >GMs in an
> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
DLing from
> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
> >> >Autoregulating
> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
> >> >> >heavy days to
> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
> >> >days so
> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
> >> >> >anyway) from
> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
> >> >(and/or Keith
> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
> >> >telling me what
> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
extended ROM
> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
> >heavy days?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You could try both.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
extended
> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
> >> >>
> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
> >> >> speed.
> >> >
> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> >>
> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> >
> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> >
> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>
> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
> right away.

Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.

John Hanson
January 11th 05, 04:08 AM
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article >, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> >In article >,
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>good idea?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
>geek_girl
>> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> > >> > >
oups.com...
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of using the
>> >> >> >typical 45 lb
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
>deadlifting, I
>> >> >> >could use
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
>This way,
>> >> >> >I could
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since I can't
>> >> >> >deadlift over
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
>same amount
>> >> >> >of weight,
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >> >> >definitely help
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
>amount of
>> >> >> >weight,
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
>that is
>> >> >> >lower. Or
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this - many people
>> >> >> >find it helps
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>> >> >> >longer. You can
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>> >> >yourself a few
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so, and stack
>> >> >> >them under
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
>accomplish the
>> >> >> >same thing.
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
>> >my DL's -
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
>> >gradually
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last week of the
>> >> >cycle to
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
>correctly, you
>> >> >> >haven't
>> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the past couple
>> >> >of years.
>> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are far better
>> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point is? If your
>> >> >sticking
>> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
>> >reverse band
>> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
>sticking
>> >> >> >point is
>> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I think if I
>> >> >> >can do rack
>> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
>floor, then
>> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
>because on my
>> >> >> >heavy DL
>> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees to get
>> >> >rid of a
>> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
>was doing
>> >> >> >GMs in an
>> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
>DLing from
>> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>> >> >Autoregulating
>> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack pulls on my
>> >> >> >heavy days to
>> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on moderate
>> >> >days so
>> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>> >> >> >anyway) from
>> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>> >> >(and/or Keith
>> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>> >> >telling me what
>> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
>extended ROM
>> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok. How about
>> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
>> >heavy days?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You could try both.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
>extended
>> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the floor.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
>> >> >> speed.
>> >> >
>> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain doesn't believe
>> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
>> >>
>> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
>> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
>> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
>> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
>> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
>> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>> >
>> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
>> >extended ROM deadlifts.
>> >
>> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
>> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
>> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
>> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
>> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>>
>> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
>> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
>> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
>> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
>> right away.
>
>Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.

Nor are platform deadlifts.

Keith Hobman
January 11th 05, 01:08 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article >,
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
> >geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
position a
> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> oups.com...
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of
using the
> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
> >deadlifting, I
> >> >> >> >could use
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
> >This way,
> >> >> >> >I could
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since
I can't
> >> >> >> >deadlift over
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
> >same amount
> >> >> >> >of weight,
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
> >> >> >> >definitely help
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
> >amount of
> >> >> >> >weight,
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
> >that is
> >> >> >> >lower. Or
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this -
many people
> >> >> >> >find it helps
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
> >> >> >> >longer. You can
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
> >> >> >yourself a few
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so,
and stack
> >> >> >> >them under
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
> >accomplish the
> >> >> >> >same thing.
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
> >> >my DL's -
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
> >> >gradually
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last
week of the
> >> >> >cycle to
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
> >correctly, you
> >> >> >> >haven't
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the
past couple
> >> >> >of years.
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are
far better
> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point
is? If your
> >> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
> >> >reverse band
> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
> >sticking
> >> >> >> >point is
> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I
think if I
> >> >> >> >can do rack
> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
> >floor, then
> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
> >because on my
> >> >> >> >heavy DL
> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees
to get
> >> >> >rid of a
> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
> >was doing
> >> >> >> >GMs in an
> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
> >DLing from
> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
> >> >> >Autoregulating
> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
pulls on my
> >> >> >> >heavy days to
> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on
moderate
> >> >> >days so
> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
> >> >> >> >anyway) from
> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
> >> >> >(and/or Keith
> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
> >> >> >telling me what
> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
> >extended ROM
> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok.
How about
> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
> >> >heavy days?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >You could try both.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
> >extended
> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the
floor.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
> >> >> >> speed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
doesn't believe
> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> >> >
> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> >> >
> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> >>
> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
> >> right away.
> >
> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
>
> Nor are platform deadlifts.

Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!

geek_girl
January 11th 05, 04:09 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> > >In article >, John
Hanson
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> > >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >>
> > >> >In article >, John
Hanson
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600,
(Keith Hobman)
> > >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >In article >,
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600,
(Keith
> Hobman)
> > >> >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >In article >,
geek_girl
> > >> >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> > >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> > >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
position a
> > >good idea?
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> > >> >> >> >> > > wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> > >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
position a
> > >> >good idea?
> > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > >> >> >> >> > >> In article
>,
> > >geek_girl
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower
starting
> position a
> > >> >> >good idea?
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve
Freides"
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
> misc.fitness.weights:
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > oups.com...
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead
of
> using the
> > >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell
when
> > >deadlifting, I
> > >> >> >> >could use
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
weights.
> > >This way,
> > >> >> >> >I could
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and
since
> I can't
> > >> >> >> >deadlift over
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use
the
> > >same amount
> > >> >> >> >of weight,
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb
weights.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start
lower would
> > >> >> >> >definitely help
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
an equal
> > >amount of
> > >> >> >> >weight,
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift
than one
> > >that is
> > >> >> >> >lower. Or
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this
-
> many people
> > >> >> >> >find it helps
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
pulling for
> > >> >> >> >longer. You can
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
plates - get
> > >> >> >yourself a few
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or
so,
> and stack
> > >> >> >> >them under
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
> > >accomplish the
> > >> >> >> >same thing.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the
height of
> > >> >my DL's -
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of
the cycle,
> > >> >gradually
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the
last
> week of the
> > >> >> >cycle to
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I
remember
> > >correctly, you
> > >> >> >> >haven't
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in
the
> past couple
> > >> >> >of years.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls
are
> far better
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking
point
> is? If your
> > >> >> >sticking
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
pulls or
> > >> >reverse band
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
that if my
> > >sticking
> > >> >> >> >point is
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy.
But I
> think if I
> > >> >> >> >can do rack
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off
the
> > >floor, then
> > >> >> >> >the floor
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably
happened
> > >because on my
> > >> >> >> >heavy DL
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the
knees
> to get
> > >> >> >rid of a
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL
days I
> > >was doing
> > >> >> >> >GMs in an
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time
I was
> > >DLing from
> > >> >> >> >the floor
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's
Canadian
> > >> >> >Autoregulating
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
> pulls on my
> > >> >> >> >heavy days to
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low
deads on
> moderate
> > >> >> >days so
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
(heavy for me,
> > >> >> >> >anyway) from
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
appreciate you
> > >> >> >(and/or Keith
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking
about)
> > >> >> >telling me what
> > >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want
to do
> > >extended ROM
> > >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> > >> >> >> >> > >
> > >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl...
Ok.
> How about
> > >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
DLs on the
> > >> >heavy days?
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >You could try both.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
light days.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
Simmons use
> > >extended
> > >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points
off the
> floor.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
generate more
> > >> >> >> speed.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
> doesn't believe
> > >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
of being
> > >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height
when
> > >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed
work.
> > >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
deadlift and
> > >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate
more
> > >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> > >> >
> > >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment
on
> > >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> > >> >
> > >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is
on the
> > >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
started.
> > >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the
start. I'm
> > >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a
relatively
> > >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> > >>
> > >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
Getting a
> > >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
Using a
> > >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to
generate
> > >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle
fibers
> > >> right away.
> > >
> > >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
> >
> > Nor are platform deadlifts.
>
> Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!

140 with 35s instead of 45s felt heavy to me last night. And my abs are
a little sore this morning.

Keith Hobman
January 11th 05, 04:29 PM
In article . com>,
"geek_girl" > wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
> > In article >, John Hanson
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
> Hobman)
> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >
> > > >In article >, John
> Hanson
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
> Hobman)
> > > >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >>
> > > >> >In article >, John
> Hanson
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600,
> (Keith Hobman)
> > > >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >In article >,
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600,
> (Keith
> > Hobman)
> > > >> >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >In article >,
> geek_girl
> > > >> >> >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> > > >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> > > >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> position a
> > > >good idea?
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> > > >> >> >> >> > > wrote in
> misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> position a
> > > >> >good idea?
> > > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> In article
> >,
> > > >geek_girl
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower
> starting
> > position a
> > > >> >> >good idea?
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve
> Freides"
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
> > misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> > > oups.com...
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead
> of
> > using the
> > > >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell
> when
> > > >deadlifting, I
> > > >> >> >> >could use
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
> weights.
> > > >This way,
> > > >> >> >> >I could
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and
> since
> > I can't
> > > >> >> >> >deadlift over
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use
> the
> > > >same amount
> > > >> >> >> >of weight,
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb
> weights.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start
> lower would
> > > >> >> >> >definitely help
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
> an equal
> > > >amount of
> > > >> >> >> >weight,
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift
> than one
> > > >that is
> > > >> >> >> >lower. Or
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this
> -
> > many people
> > > >> >> >> >find it helps
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
> pulling for
> > > >> >> >> >longer. You can
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
> plates - get
> > > >> >> >yourself a few
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or
> so,
> > and stack
> > > >> >> >> >them under
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
> > > >accomplish the
> > > >> >> >> >same thing.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the
> height of
> > > >> >my DL's -
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of
> the cycle,
> > > >> >gradually
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the
> last
> > week of the
> > > >> >> >cycle to
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I
> remember
> > > >correctly, you
> > > >> >> >> >haven't
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in
> the
> > past couple
> > > >> >> >of years.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls
> are
> > far better
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking
> point
> > is? If your
> > > >> >> >sticking
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
> pulls or
> > > >> >reverse band
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
> that if my
> > > >sticking
> > > >> >> >> >point is
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy.
> But I
> > think if I
> > > >> >> >> >can do rack
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off
> the
> > > >floor, then
> > > >> >> >> >the floor
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably
> happened
> > > >because on my
> > > >> >> >> >heavy DL
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the
> knees
> > to get
> > > >> >> >rid of a
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL
> days I
> > > >was doing
> > > >> >> >> >GMs in an
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time
> I was
> > > >DLing from
> > > >> >> >> >the floor
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's
> Canadian
> > > >> >> >Autoregulating
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
> > pulls on my
> > > >> >> >> >heavy days to
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low
> deads on
> > moderate
> > > >> >> >days so
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
> (heavy for me,
> > > >> >> >> >anyway) from
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
> appreciate you
> > > >> >> >(and/or Keith
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking
> about)
> > > >> >> >telling me what
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want
> to do
> > > >extended ROM
> > > >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> > > >> >> >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl...
> Ok.
> > How about
> > > >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
> DLs on the
> > > >> >heavy days?
> > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >You could try both.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
> light days.
> > > >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
> Simmons use
> > > >extended
> > > >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points
> off the
> > floor.
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
> generate more
> > > >> >> >> speed.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
> > doesn't believe
> > > >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
> of being
> > > >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height
> when
> > > >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed
> work.
> > > >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
> deadlift and
> > > >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate
> more
> > > >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment
> on
> > > >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is
> on the
> > > >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
> started.
> > > >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the
> start. I'm
> > > >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a
> relatively
> > > >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> > > >>
> > > >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
> Getting a
> > > >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
> Using a
> > > >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to
> generate
> > > >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle
> fibers
> > > >> right away.
> > > >
> > > >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
> > >
> > > Nor are platform deadlifts.
> >
> > Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>
> 140 with 35s instead of 45s felt heavy to me last night. And my abs are
> a little sore this morning.

Didn't you say your PB is 145?

Anyhow, if your abs are sore it is a good sign.

geek_girl
January 11th 05, 04:46 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "geek_girl" > wrote:
>
> > Keith Hobman wrote:
> > > In article >, John
Hanson
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
> > Hobman)
> > > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

> > > > >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the
bands.
> > > >
> > > > Nor are platform deadlifts.
> > >
> > > Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
> >
> > 140 with 35s instead of 45s felt heavy to me last night. And my abs
are
> > a little sore this morning.
>
> Didn't you say your PB is 145?

No, not exactly. At some point last year I was able to do 176 for a
double. But then it all went downhill from there. A few times in the
last few months I've been able to get as much as 160, but my DL has
been really inconsistent. There have been days (too many of them) when
I can't get 145 off the floor.

> Anyhow, if your abs are sore it is a good sign.

Yes, I think you were absolutely right about the problem being that I
wasn't keeping my abs tight enough. That's probably one reason my DL
has been so inconsistent; sometimes I keep my abs tight and sometimes
not. I think doing the extended ROM DLs will get me in the habit again
of doing it all time.

John Hanson
January 12th 05, 03:50 AM
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article >, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> >In article >, John Hanson
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >In article >,
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith
>Hobman)
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
>> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
>> >geek_girl
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>position a
>> >> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
>misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> oups.com...
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of
>using the
>> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
>> >deadlifting, I
>> >> >> >> >could use
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
>> >This way,
>> >> >> >> >I could
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since
>I can't
>> >> >> >> >deadlift over
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
>> >same amount
>> >> >> >> >of weight,
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start lower would
>> >> >> >> >definitely help
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
>> >amount of
>> >> >> >> >weight,
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
>> >that is
>> >> >> >> >lower. Or
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this -
>many people
>> >> >> >> >find it helps
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're pulling for
>> >> >> >> >longer. You can
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>> >> >> >yourself a few
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so,
>and stack
>> >> >> >> >them under
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
>> >accomplish the
>> >> >> >> >same thing.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the height of
>> >> >my DL's -
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of the cycle,
>> >> >gradually
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last
>week of the
>> >> >> >cycle to
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
>> >correctly, you
>> >> >> >> >haven't
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the
>past couple
>> >> >> >of years.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are
>far better
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point
>is? If your
>> >> >> >sticking
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
>> >> >reverse band
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
>> >sticking
>> >> >> >> >point is
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I
>think if I
>> >> >> >> >can do rack
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
>> >floor, then
>> >> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
>> >because on my
>> >> >> >> >heavy DL
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees
>to get
>> >> >> >rid of a
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
>> >was doing
>> >> >> >> >GMs in an
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
>> >DLing from
>> >> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>> >> >> >Autoregulating
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
>pulls on my
>> >> >> >> >heavy days to
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on
>moderate
>> >> >> >days so
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff (heavy for me,
>> >> >> >> >anyway) from
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>> >> >> >(and/or Keith
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>> >> >> >telling me what
>> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
>> >extended ROM
>> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok.
>How about
>> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
>> >> >heavy days?
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >You could try both.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
>> >extended
>> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the
>floor.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to generate more
>> >> >> >> speed.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
>doesn't believe
>> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
>> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
>> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
>> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
>> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
>> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>> >> >
>> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
>> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
>> >> >
>> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
>> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
>> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the start. I'm
>> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a relatively
>> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>> >>
>> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
>> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
>> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
>> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
>> >> right away.
>> >
>> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
>>
>> Nor are platform deadlifts.
>
>Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!

Try 675 with bands.

Keith Hobman
January 12th 05, 04:15 AM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >In article >,
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith
> >Hobman)
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
> >> >geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> >position a
> >> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
> >misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> oups.com...
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of
> >using the
> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
> >> >deadlifting, I
> >> >> >> >> >could use
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
> >> >This way,
> >> >> >> >> >I could
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since
> >I can't
> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
> >> >same amount
> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start
lower would
> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
> >> >amount of
> >> >> >> >> >weight,
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
> >> >that is
> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this -
> >many people
> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
pulling for
> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
> >> >> >> >yourself a few
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so,
> >and stack
> >> >> >> >> >them under
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
> >> >accomplish the
> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the
height of
> >> >> >my DL's -
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of
the cycle,
> >> >> >gradually
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last
> >week of the
> >> >> >> >cycle to
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
> >> >correctly, you
> >> >> >> >> >haven't
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the
> >past couple
> >> >> >> >of years.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are
> >far better
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point
> >is? If your
> >> >> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
> >> >> >reverse band
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> >> >point is
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I
> >think if I
> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
> >> >floor, then
> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
> >> >because on my
> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees
> >to get
> >> >> >> >rid of a
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
> >> >was doing
> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
> >> >DLing from
> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
> >pulls on my
> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on
> >moderate
> >> >> >> >days so
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
(heavy for me,
> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
> >> >> >> >telling me what
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
> >> >extended ROM
> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok.
> >How about
> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
> >> >> >heavy days?
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
> >> >extended
> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the
> >floor.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
generate more
> >> >> >> >> speed.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
> >doesn't believe
> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the
start. I'm
> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a
relatively
> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
> >> >> right away.
> >> >
> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
> >>
> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
> >
> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>
> Try 675 with bands.

I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was getting
200 lbs off the floor or so.

My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is good if
the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.

John Hanson
January 12th 05, 05:07 AM
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:15:28 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >In article >, John Hanson
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >> >In article >, John Hanson
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >In article >, John Hanson
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith
>Hobman)
>> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >In article >,
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith
>> >Hobman)
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >In article >, geek_girl
>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
>> >> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
>> >> >geek_girl
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>> >position a
>> >> >> >> >good idea?
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
>> >misc.fitness.weights:
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>> >> oups.com...
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of
>> >using the
>> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
>> >> >deadlifting, I
>> >> >> >> >> >could use
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb weights.
>> >> >This way,
>> >> >> >> >> >I could
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since
>> >I can't
>> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
>> >> >same amount
>> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start
>lower would
>> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with an equal
>> >> >amount of
>> >> >> >> >> >weight,
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift than one
>> >> >that is
>> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this -
>> >many people
>> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
>pulling for
>> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb plates - get
>> >> >> >> >yourself a few
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so,
>> >and stack
>> >> >> >> >> >them under
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
>> >> >accomplish the
>> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the
>height of
>> >> >> >my DL's -
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of
>the cycle,
>> >> >> >gradually
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last
>> >week of the
>> >> >> >> >cycle to
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
>> >> >correctly, you
>> >> >> >> >> >haven't
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the
>> >past couple
>> >> >> >> >of years.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are
>> >far better
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point
>> >is? If your
>> >> >> >> >sticking
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack pulls or
>> >> >> >reverse band
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking that if my
>> >> >sticking
>> >> >> >> >> >point is
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I
>> >think if I
>> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
>> >> >floor, then
>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
>> >> >because on my
>> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees
>> >to get
>> >> >> >> >rid of a
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
>> >> >was doing
>> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
>> >> >DLing from
>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's Canadian
>> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
>> >pulls on my
>> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on
>> >moderate
>> >> >> >> >days so
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
>(heavy for me,
>> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would appreciate you
>> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're talking about)
>> >> >> >> >telling me what
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
>> >> >extended ROM
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok.
>> >How about
>> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular DLs on the
>> >> >> >heavy days?
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on light days.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and Simmons use
>> >> >extended
>> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the
>> >floor.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
>generate more
>> >> >> >> >> speed.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
>> >doesn't believe
>> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead of being
>> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
>> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about speed work.
>> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm deadlift and
>> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
>> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
>> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
>> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight started.
>> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the
>start. I'm
>> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a
>relatively
>> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that? Getting a
>> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity). Using a
>> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
>> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
>> >> >> right away.
>> >> >
>> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
>> >>
>> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
>> >
>> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>>
>> Try 675 with bands.
>
>I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was getting
>200 lbs off the floor or so.
>
>My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
>below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is good if
>the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.

If that's the case, try 765+ with bands.

Steve Freides
January 12th 05, 05:37 AM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:15:28 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith
>>> Hobman)
>>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>
>>> >In article >, John
>>> >Hanson
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
>>> >> Hobman)
>>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>> >>
>>> >> >In article >, John
>>> >> >Hanson
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
>>> >> >> Hobman)
>>> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >In article >, John
>>> >> >> >Hanson
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600,
>>> >> >> >> (Keith
>>Hobman)
>>> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >In article >,
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600,
>>> >> >> >> >> (Keith
>>> >Hobman)
>>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >In article >,
>>> >> >> >> >> >geek_girl
>>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > position a
>>> >> >good idea?
>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > misc.fitness.weights:
>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> position a
>>> >> >> >good idea?
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >,
>>> >> >geek_girl
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > starting
>>> >position a
>>> >> >> >> >good idea?
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Freides"
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
>>> >misc.fitness.weights:
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>> >> oups.com...
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> instead of
>>> >using the
>>> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> when
>>> >> >deadlifting, I
>>> >> >> >> >> >could use
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
>>> >> >This way,
>>> >> >> >> >> >I could
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> and since
>>> >I can't
>>> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> use the
>>> >> >same amount
>>> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> start
>>lower would
>>> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> an equal
>>> >> >amount of
>>> >> >> >> >> >weight,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift than one
>>> >> >that is
>>> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >this -
>>> >many people
>>> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
>>pulling for
>>> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >plates - get
>>> >> >> >> >yourself a few
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3'
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >or so,
>>> >and stack
>>> >> >> >> >> >them under
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >to
>>> >> >accomplish the
>>> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >the
>>height of
>>> >> >> >my DL's -
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >of
>>the cycle,
>>> >> >> >gradually
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >last
>>> >week of the
>>> >> >> >> >cycle to
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > remember
>>> >> >correctly, you
>>> >> >> >> >> >haven't
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > the
>>> >past couple
>>> >> >> >> >of years.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > pulls are
>>> >far better
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point
>>> >is? If your
>>> >> >> >> >sticking
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls or
>>> >> >> >reverse band
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > that if my
>>> >> >sticking
>>> >> >> >> >> >point is
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But I
>>> >think if I
>>> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > off the
>>> >> >floor, then
>>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > happened
>>> >> >because on my
>>> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the knees
>>> >to get
>>> >> >> >> >rid of a
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I
>>> >> >was doing
>>> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > time I was
>>> >> >DLing from
>>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thibaudeau's Canadian
>>> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > rack
>>> >pulls on my
>>> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deads on
>>> >moderate
>>> >> >> >> >days so
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
>>(heavy for me,
>>> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > appreciate you
>>> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > talking about)
>>> >> >> >> >telling me what
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> to do
>>> >> >extended ROM
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >gurl... Ok.
>>> >How about
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >DLs on the
>>> >> >> >heavy days?
>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
>>> >> >> >> >> >light days.
>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
>>> >> >> >> >> >Simmons use
>>> >> >extended
>>> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points
>>> >> >> >> >> >off the
>>> >floor.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
>>generate more
>>> >> >> >> >> speed.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
>>> >doesn't believe
>>> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
>>> >> >> >> of being
>>> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor
>>> >> >> >> height when
>>> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about
>>> >> >> >> speed work.
>>> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
>>> >> >> >> deadlift and
>>> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to
>>> >> >> >> generate more
>>> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's
>>> >> >> >comment on
>>> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is
>>> >> >> >on the
>>> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
>>> >> >> >started.
>>> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off
>>> >> >> >the
>>start. I'm
>>> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using
>>> >> >> >a
>>relatively
>>> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
>>> >> >> Getting a
>>> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
>>> >> >> Using a
>>> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to
>>> >> >> generate
>>> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle
>>> >> >> fibers
>>> >> >> right away.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the
>>> >> >bands.
>>> >>
>>> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
>>> >
>>> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>>>
>>> Try 675 with bands.
>>
>>I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was
>>getting
>>200 lbs off the floor or so.
>>
>>My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
>>below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is
>>good if
>>the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.
>
> If that's the case, try 765+ with bands.

Keith, if you don't stop, this one's just going to go on forever and
ever. Just say no, bro'. If I had any doubts as to whether or not you
were the most patient person on the planet, this thread has quelled them
all. Another few back and forths like this and I'm going to nominate
you for sainthood.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Keith Hobman
January 12th 05, 02:03 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:15:28 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >In article >, John Hanson
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600, (Keith
> >Hobman)
> >> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >In article >,
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600, (Keith
> >> >Hobman)
> >> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >In article >,
geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting position a
> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
position a
> >> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article >,
> >> >> >geek_girl
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> >> >position a
> >> >> >> >> >good idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
> >> >misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >> >> oups.com...
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but instead of
> >> >using the
> >> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell when
> >> >> >deadlifting, I
> >> >> >> >> >> >could use
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
weights.
> >> >> >This way,
> >> >> >> >> >> >I could
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position, and since
> >> >I can't
> >> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could use the
> >> >> >same amount
> >> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb weights.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to start
> >lower would
> >> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
an equal
> >> >> >amount of
> >> >> >> >> >> >weight,
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height deadlift
than one
> >> >> >that is
> >> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try this -
> >> >many people
> >> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
> >pulling for
> >> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
plates - get
> >> >> >> >> >yourself a few
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3' or so,
> >> >and stack
> >> >> >> >> >> >them under
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates to
> >> >> >accomplish the
> >> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling the
> >height of
> >> >> >> >my DL's -
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning of
> >the cycle,
> >> >> >> >gradually
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the last
> >> >week of the
> >> >> >> >> >cycle to
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I remember
> >> >> >correctly, you
> >> >> >> >> >> >haven't
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in the
> >> >past couple
> >> >> >> >> >of years.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack pulls are
> >> >far better
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking point
> >> >is? If your
> >> >> >> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
pulls or
> >> >> >> >reverse band
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
that if my
> >> >> >sticking
> >> >> >> >> >> >point is
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy. But I
> >> >think if I
> >> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145 off the
> >> >> >floor, then
> >> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably happened
> >> >> >because on my
> >> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below the knees
> >> >to get
> >> >> >> >> >rid of a
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL days I
> >> >> >was doing
> >> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only time I was
> >> >> >DLing from
> >> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing Thibaudeau's
Canadian
> >> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the rack
> >> >pulls on my
> >> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low deads on
> >> >moderate
> >> >> >> >> >days so
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
> >(heavy for me,
> >> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
appreciate you
> >> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're
talking about)
> >> >> >> >> >telling me what
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want to do
> >> >> >extended ROM
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn gurl... Ok.
> >> >How about
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
DLs on the
> >> >> >> >heavy days?
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
light days.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
Simmons use
> >> >> >extended
> >> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points off the
> >> >floor.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
> >generate more
> >> >> >> >> >> speed.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
> >> >doesn't believe
> >> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
of being
> >> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor height when
> >> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about
speed work.
> >> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
deadlift and
> >> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to generate more
> >> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's comment on
> >> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is on the
> >> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
started.
> >> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off the
> >start. I'm
> >> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using a
> >relatively
> >> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
Getting a
> >> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
Using a
> >> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to generate
> >> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle fibers
> >> >> >> right away.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
> >> >>
> >> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
> >> >
> >> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
> >>
> >> Try 675 with bands.
> >
> >I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was getting
> >200 lbs off the floor or so.
> >
> >My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
> >below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is good if
> >the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.
>
> If that's the case, try 765+ with bands.

My head is fat enough already...

:^)

Keith Hobman
January 12th 05, 02:04 PM
In article >, "Steve Freides"
> wrote:

> "John Hanson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:15:28 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> >>In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith
> >>> Hobman)
> >>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>>
> >>> >In article >, John
> >>> >Hanson
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
> >>> >> Hobman)
> >>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >In article >, John
> >>> >> >Hanson
> >>> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
> >>> >> >> Hobman)
> >>> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >In article >, John
> >>> >> >> >Hanson
> >>> >> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600,
> >>> >> >> >> (Keith
> >>Hobman)
> >>> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >In article >,
> >>> >> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600,
> >>> >> >> >> >> (Keith
> >>> >Hobman)
> >>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >In article >,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >geek_girl
> >>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > position a
> >>> >> >good idea?
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > misc.fitness.weights:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> position a
> >>> >> >> >good idea?
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >,
> >>> >> >geek_girl
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > starting
> >>> >position a
> >>> >> >> >> >good idea?
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Freides"
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
> >>> >misc.fitness.weights:
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
> >>> >> oups.com...
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> instead of
> >>> >using the
> >>> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> when
> >>> >> >deadlifting, I
> >>> >> >> >> >> >could use
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
> >>> >> >This way,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >I could
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> and since
> >>> >I can't
> >>> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> use the
> >>> >> >same amount
> >>> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> start
> >>lower would
> >>> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> an equal
> >>> >> >amount of
> >>> >> >> >> >> >weight,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift than one
> >>> >> >that is
> >>> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >this -
> >>> >many people
> >>> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
> >>pulling for
> >>> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >plates - get
> >>> >> >> >> >yourself a few
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3'
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >or so,
> >>> >and stack
> >>> >> >> >> >> >them under
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >to
> >>> >> >accomplish the
> >>> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >the
> >>height of
> >>> >> >> >my DL's -
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >of
> >>the cycle,
> >>> >> >> >gradually
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >last
> >>> >week of the
> >>> >> >> >> >cycle to
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > remember
> >>> >> >correctly, you
> >>> >> >> >> >> >haven't
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > the
> >>> >past couple
> >>> >> >> >> >of years.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > pulls are
> >>> >far better
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point
> >>> >is? If your
> >>> >> >> >> >sticking
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls or
> >>> >> >> >reverse band
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > that if my
> >>> >> >sticking
> >>> >> >> >> >> >point is
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But I
> >>> >think if I
> >>> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > off the
> >>> >> >floor, then
> >>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > happened
> >>> >> >because on my
> >>> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the knees
> >>> >to get
> >>> >> >> >> >rid of a
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I
> >>> >> >was doing
> >>> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > time I was
> >>> >> >DLing from
> >>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thibaudeau's Canadian
> >>> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > rack
> >>> >pulls on my
> >>> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deads on
> >>> >moderate
> >>> >> >> >> >days so
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
> >>(heavy for me,
> >>> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > appreciate you
> >>> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > talking about)
> >>> >> >> >> >telling me what
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> to do
> >>> >> >extended ROM
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >gurl... Ok.
> >>> >How about
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >DLs on the
> >>> >> >> >heavy days?
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
> >>> >> >> >> >> >light days.
> >>> >> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
> >>> >> >> >> >> >Simmons use
> >>> >> >extended
> >>> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points
> >>> >> >> >> >> >off the
> >>> >floor.
> >>> >> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
> >>generate more
> >>> >> >> >> >> speed.
> >>> >> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
> >>> >doesn't believe
> >>> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
> >>> >> >> >>
> >>> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
> >>> >> >> >> of being
> >>> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor
> >>> >> >> >> height when
> >>> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about
> >>> >> >> >> speed work.
> >>> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
> >>> >> >> >> deadlift and
> >>> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to
> >>> >> >> >> generate more
> >>> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's
> >>> >> >> >comment on
> >>> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
> >>> >> >> >
> >>> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is
> >>> >> >> >on the
> >>> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
> >>> >> >> >started.
> >>> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off
> >>> >> >> >the
> >>start. I'm
> >>> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using
> >>> >> >> >a
> >>relatively
> >>> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
> >>> >> >> Getting a
> >>> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
> >>> >> >> Using a
> >>> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to
> >>> >> >> generate
> >>> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle
> >>> >> >> fibers
> >>> >> >> right away.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the
> >>> >> >bands.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
> >>> >
> >>> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
> >>>
> >>> Try 675 with bands.
> >>
> >>I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was
> >>getting
> >>200 lbs off the floor or so.
> >>
> >>My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
> >>below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is
> >>good if
> >>the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.
> >
> > If that's the case, try 765+ with bands.
>
> Keith, if you don't stop, this one's just going to go on forever and
> ever. Just say no, bro'. If I had any doubts as to whether or not you
> were the most patient person on the planet, this thread has quelled them
> all. Another few back and forths like this and I'm going to nominate
> you for sainthood.

Huh. This is nothing. You should of stuck around for beers with Scott and
John. Three stubborn cusses.

It was a hoot. Lots of laughs and good stories.

Helgi Briem
January 12th 05, 03:04 PM
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:29:41 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>> > > >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
>> > >
>> > > Nor are platform deadlifts.
>> >
>> > Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>>
>> 140 with 35s instead of 45s felt heavy to me last night. And my abs are
>> a little sore this morning.
>
>Didn't you say your PB is 145?
>
>Anyhow, if your abs are sore it is a good sign.

For god's sake people, learn to snip the excess verbiage!

This is driving me crazy.

If there's something worse on Usenet than top-posting,
it's full-quoting.
http://www.houghi.org/jargon/TOFU.php

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Keith Hobman
January 12th 05, 03:34 PM
In article >, Helgi Briem
> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:29:41 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >> > > >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the bands.
> >> > >
> >> > > Nor are platform deadlifts.
> >> >
> >> > Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
> >>
> >> 140 with 35s instead of 45s felt heavy to me last night. And my abs are
> >> a little sore this morning.
> >
> >Didn't you say your PB is 145?
> >
> >Anyhow, if your abs are sore it is a good sign.
>
> For god's sake people, learn to snip the excess verbiage!
>
> This is driving me crazy.
>
> If there's something worse on Usenet than top-posting,
> it's full-quoting.
> http://www.houghi.org/jargon/TOFU.php

Dayum dude. Since about the 5th post this has _all_ been excess verbiage!

Helgi Briem
January 12th 05, 04:26 PM
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:34:59 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>> For god's sake people, learn to snip the excess verbiage!
>>
>> This is driving me crazy.
>>
>> If there's something worse on Usenet than top-posting,
>> it's full-quoting.
>> http://www.houghi.org/jargon/TOFU.php
>
>Dayum dude. Since about the 5th post this has _all_ been
> excess verbiage!

Believe me Keith, I noticed.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

John Hanson
January 12th 05, 05:26 PM
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:37:34 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:15:28 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:08:14 -0600, (Keith
>>>> Hobman)
>>>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>>
>>>> >In article >, John
>>>> >Hanson
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:11:25 -0600, (Keith
>>>> >> Hobman)
>>>> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >In article >, John
>>>> >> >Hanson
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0600, (Keith
>>>> >> >> Hobman)
>>>> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >In article >, John
>>>> >> >> >Hanson
>>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 21:42:10 -0600,
>>>> >> >> >> (Keith
>>>Hobman)
>>>> >> >> >> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >In article >,
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0600,
>>>> >> >> >> >> (Keith
>>>> >Hobman)
>>>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >In article >,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >geek_girl
>>>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:27:23 -0600
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > From: John Hanson >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > position a
>>>> >> >good idea?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:10:00 -0600, geek_girl
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > > wrote in
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > misc.fitness.weights:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Keith Hobman wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 17:58:52 -0600
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> From: Keith Hobman >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower starting
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> position a
>>>> >> >> >good idea?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> In article
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >,
>>>> >> >geek_girl
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, John Hanson wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:23:51 -0600
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > From: John Hanson
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Is deadlifting from lower
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > starting
>>>> >position a
>>>> >> >> >> >good idea?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:16:50 -0500, "Steve
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > Freides"
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in
>>>> >misc.fitness.weights:
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > wrote in message
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >
>>>> >> oups.com...
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> This may sound kind of stupid, but
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> instead of
>>>> >using the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >typical 45 lb
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights to go on the end of the barbell
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> when
>>>> >> >deadlifting, I
>>>> >> >> >> >> >could use
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> 4
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> to 6 (on each end) of the smaller 25 lb
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
>>>> >> >This way,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >I could
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift starting at a lower position,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> and since
>>>> >I can't
>>>> >> >> >> >> >deadlift over
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> about 300 lbs right now anyway, I could
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> use the
>>>> >> >same amount
>>>> >> >> >> >> >of weight,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> so long as I could find enough 25 lb
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> weights.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> The whole point is I think having to
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> start
>>>lower would
>>>> >> >> >> >> >definitely help
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> me gain deadlift strength. That is, with
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> an equal
>>>> >> >amount of
>>>> >> >> >> >> >weight,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> it's easier to do a normal height
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> deadlift than one
>>>> >> >that is
>>>> >> >> >> >> >lower. Or
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >> is this a bad idea?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >You wouldn't be the first person to try
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >this -
>>>> >many people
>>>> >> >> >> >> >find it helps
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >them. Among other things, it means you're
>>>pulling for
>>>> >> >> >> >> >longer. You can
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >do this other ways than just using 25 lb
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >plates - get
>>>> >> >> >> >yourself a few
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >3/4" plywood shelves or pieces cut 2' x 3'
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >or so,
>>>> >and stack
>>>> >> >> >> >> >them under
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >your feet. You can also stand on a plates
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >to
>>>> >> >accomplish the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >same thing.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >I've hit some PR's in the past by cycling
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >the
>>>height of
>>>> >> >> >my DL's -
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >starting up a few inches at the beginning
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >of
>>>the cycle,
>>>> >> >> >gradually
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >returning to pulling from the floor by the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >last
>>>> >week of the
>>>> >> >> >> >cycle to
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >hopefully hit a new PR.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > That may or may not have helped. If I
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > remember
>>>> >> >correctly, you
>>>> >> >> >> >> >haven't
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > had much of an increase in your deadlift in
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > the
>>>> >past couple
>>>> >> >> >> >of years.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > I think reverse band deadlifts and rack
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > pulls are
>>>> >far better
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > assistance exercises for the deadlift.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But doesn't it depend on where your sticking
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point
>>>> >is? If your
>>>> >> >> >> >sticking
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > point is the floor, then how would either rack
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls or
>>>> >> >> >reverse band
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deadlifts help? Yeah, I know, you're thinking
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > that if my
>>>> >> >sticking
>>>> >> >> >> >> >point is
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor, then the weight is just too heavy.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > But I
>>>> >think if I
>>>> >> >> >> >> >can do rack
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > pulls for triples with 185 but can't get 145
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > off the
>>>> >> >floor, then
>>>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > is indeed my sticking point. That probably
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > happened
>>>> >> >because on my
>>>> >> >> >> >> >heavy DL
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I was doing rack pulls from just below
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the knees
>>>> >to get
>>>> >> >> >> >rid of a
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > sticking point I had there, and on moderate DL
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > days I
>>>> >> >was doing
>>>> >> >> >> >> >GMs in an
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > attempt to strengthen my hips, so the only
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > time I was
>>>> >> >DLing from
>>>> >> >> >> >> >the floor
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > was on speed days (I've been doing
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thibaudeau's Canadian
>>>> >> >> >> >Autoregulating
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Thingy) . So this time around I'm doing the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > rack
>>>> >pulls on my
>>>> >> >> >> >> >heavy days to
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > keep working on that sticking point, and low
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > deads on
>>>> >moderate
>>>> >> >> >> >days so
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > maybe I can remember how to lift heavy stuff
>>>(heavy for me,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >anyway) from
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > the floor.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > If that doesn't make sense, then I would
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > appreciate you
>>>> >> >> >> >(and/or Keith
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > and/or anyone else who knows WTF they're
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > talking about)
>>>> >> >> >> >telling me what
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > else I could do.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> If your sticking point is off the floor you want
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> to do
>>>> >> >extended ROM
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> deadlifts and highbar squats below parallel.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >You people are confusing me! I'm just a dumn
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >gurl... Ok.
>>>> >How about
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >extended ROM DLs on the moderate day, and regular
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > >DLs on the
>>>> >> >> >heavy days?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> > Keith and I are disagreeing with one another.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >You could try both.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >Do the bands on the heavy day and the extended ROM on
>>>> >> >> >> >> >light days.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> >As a point of contention with John tho both RDC and
>>>> >> >> >> >> >Simmons use
>>>> >> >extended
>>>> >> >> >> >> >ROM deadlifts and Simmons specifically for weak points
>>>> >> >> >> >> >off the
>>>> >floor.
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> And they both do it with lighter weights and trying to
>>>generate more
>>>> >> >> >> >> speed.
>>>> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >Nope. It's a maximum effort exercise for Simmons and Crain
>>>> >doesn't believe
>>>> >> >> >> >in speed work AFAIK.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> It's not speed work and you are still going faster (instead
>>>> >> >> >> of being
>>>> >> >> >> at rest) when the barbell approaches the normal floor
>>>> >> >> >> height when
>>>> >> >> >> doing platform deadlifts. I'm not at all talking about
>>>> >> >> >> speed work.
>>>> >> >> >> I'm talking about using a weight that is over your 1rm
>>>> >> >> >> deadlift and
>>>> >> >> >> that is somewhat difficult to lock out. You have to
>>>> >> >> >> generate more
>>>> >> >> >> power off the floor to do that with reverse band deadlifts.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >I understand your point John. I was responding to Bob's
>>>> >> >> >comment on
>>>> >> >> >extended ROM deadlifts.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >The problem I have is that in this case the sticking point is
>>>> >> >> >on the
>>>> >> >> >floor. The person has to learn how to get a very heavy weight
>>>> >> >> >started.
>>>> >> >> >There is no speed to speak of with a heavy deadlift 1" off
>>>> >> >> >the
>>>start. I'm
>>>> >> >> >more concerned with not losing power through the torso. Using
>>>> >> >> >a
>>>relatively
>>>> >> >> >lighter weight off the floor with the bands won't teach this.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> What do you mean by relatively and why won't it teach that?
>>>> >> >> Getting a
>>>> >> >> weight off the floor involves power (power=force * velocity).
>>>> >> >> Using a
>>>> >> >> relatively heavy weight for reverse bands will teach you to
>>>> >> >> generate
>>>> >> >> more power off the floor forcing you to recruit more muscle
>>>> >> >> fibers
>>>> >> >> right away.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Because the weight isn't that heavy off the floor with the
>>>> >> >bands.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Nor are platform deadlifts.
>>>> >
>>>> >Really? Using 495 lbs off boards felt heavy to me!
>>>>
>>>> Try 675 with bands.
>>>
>>>I've done that. Felt pretty easy, to be honest. But I think I was
>>>getting
>>>200 lbs off the floor or so.
>>>
>>>My problem has rarely been lockout tho. I pulled 765 from the rack 2"
>>>below the knees when I tore my bicep. I agree the band deadlift is
>>>good if
>>>the problem is lockout. I disagree it helps off the floor.
>>
>> If that's the case, try 765+ with bands.
>
>Keith, if you don't stop, this one's just going to go on forever and
>ever. Just say no, bro'. If I had any doubts as to whether or not you
>were the most patient person on the planet, this thread has quelled them
>all. Another few back and forths like this and I'm going to nominate
>you for sainthood.
>

But the fact of the matter is, I'm right. Relatively heavy reverse
band deadlifts will help you get through your sticking point no matter
if it is at the floor or at the top of the lift. If Keith was getting
200 pounds at the floor with the bands, he would need to up the
weight. Seeing as how he's good for 765X2 just below the knee, he
would be doing 565 at the floor with that same weight with bands.
Reverse bands should be used as a max effort exercise.

So, have you ever tried them, Steve?

elzinator
January 12th 05, 08:06 PM
DZ wrote:
> Helgi Briem wrote:
> > For god's sake people, learn to snip the excess verbiage!
> >
> > This is driving me crazy.
> >
> > If there's something worse on Usenet than top-posting,
> > it's full-quoting. http://www.houghi.org/jargon/TOFU.php
>
> It wouldn't have been that bad if they'd have kept the lines
> unwrapped. How am I supposed to understand this conversation - that's
> as good as AOL >>"quoting" --

My solution is
1. don't bother reading the post (kinda like Whitney's posts),
2. just delete the mess unread.

My time is limited, but more so my patience. Gotta compromise
somewhere.

DanL
January 14th 05, 04:03 AM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>
> I disagree. Reverse bands are good for people who's sticking point is
> at the floor also. They're better than extended ROM pulls.
>

I used a steady diet of deadlifts standing on plates and it cured my off the
floor problems. Now it' the lockout, and I've been hitting them by putting
the plates up on blocks- sorta like rack pulls but I can use my wider stance
that I can't use inside the rack.

I like reverse bands too but I really think they are better for lockout
strength than off the floor strength.

Doing deadlifts for speed- pulling a lighter weight as hard as you can- is
good for off the floor strength too.

DanL
January 14th 05, 04:08 AM
"John Hanson" > wrote in message
...
>>A quick look at the exercise log from two years ago shows a 1RM of 325.
>>This fall I did 315 x 8, 325 x 4, and 350 x 2 in training and should be
>>good for a 1RM of about 370 or so although I haven't attempted a new max
>>lately except at the AAU meet a month ago when my third DL attempt was
>>very late and I just wasn't psyched. I did get my second which was 347
>>lbs. I'm very satisfied with that kind of progress at my age and weight
>>and with my back history.
>>
> So in other words, it went up 22 pounds.
>
Exactly. It's what you have done, not what you think you can do based on a
math equation.