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Lee Michaels
November 24th 03, 03:51 AM
I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.

Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.

This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
article says.

What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.

I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.

Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
sure what to believe here.

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 04:08 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>
>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>
This is disturbing. Usually Indians prefer to do this on their own
while passed out drunk. This happens every other week at most northern
reservations.

Proton Soup
November 24th 03, 04:34 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>
>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>
>This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
>a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
>fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
>maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
>policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
>article says.
>
>What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
>exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
>This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
>volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>
>I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
>disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>
>Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
>sure what to believe here.

Frozen Indians tell no lies.

Proton Soup

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 04:40 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>
>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>
>This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
>a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
>fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
>maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
>policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
>article says.
>
>What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
>exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
>This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
>volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>
>I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
>disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>
>Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
>sure what to believe here.
>
It definitely happened and it happened in Keith's hometown, Sakatoon.
I don't think it'st a habit though. Just a couple of cops trying to
shorten the justice cycle.
Racist cops are always going to be there. We used to have a peceived
problem with that in Winnipeg too although the police department has
taken some very large steps to get rid of thet element.
I say perceived because I don't know for sure if it was there, I
imagine it was, but there were hearings which were somewhat
inconclusive after a shooting death involving a cop and a Native.

--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 05:14 AM
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:40:38 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:
>
>>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>>
>>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>>
>>This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
>>a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
>>fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
>>maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
>>policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
>>article says.
>>
>>What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
>>exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
>>This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
>>volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>>
>>I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
>>disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>>
>>Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
>>sure what to believe here.
>>
>It definitely happened and it happened in Keith's hometown, Sakatoon.
>I don't think it'st a habit though. Just a couple of cops trying to
>shorten the justice cycle.
>Racist cops are always going to be there. We used to have a peceived
>problem with that in Winnipeg too although the police department has
>taken some very large steps to get rid of thet element.
>I say perceived because I don't know for sure if it was there, I
>imagine it was, but there were hearings which were somewhat
>inconclusive after a shooting death involving a cop and a Native.

Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
the past.

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 05:21 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:

>Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
>tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
>problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
>was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
>covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
>racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
>the past.

I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
The accusation was that they were.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 05:29 AM
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:21:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
>>tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
>>problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
>>was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
>>covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
>>racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
>>the past.
>
>I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
>in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
>The accusation was that they were.

Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
what I mean.

Al
November 24th 03, 05:41 AM
Lee Michaels > wrote:
> I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw
> it in passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>
> Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I
> can't spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police
> stranding native americans out of town in the winter. This often
> leads to their death. Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around
> these parts.
>
> This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and
> warmth at a power station. He lived to testify against his two
> captors and they got fired. They also served some kind of minimal
> sentence. The article maintained that this has been done for many
> years. It was a little genocide policy practiced against poor,
> native american troublemakers. Or so the article says.
>
> What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality
> still exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a
> cold climate. This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I
> can't see anybody volunteering information that would incriminate
> themselves.
>
> I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the
> niceties disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>
> Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I
> am not sure what to believe here.

Seems to be true,

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/064.html for incidents from
2000
and the Washington Post from yesterday,
http://www.msnbc.com/news/996834.asp?0cl=cR&cp1=1#BODY

Years ago my brother was an RCMP constable in Northern Saskatchewan.
This was pretty far from most civilization and he said there weren't
too many problems getting along with the natives. Not long before he
left the force, he was transferred to Moose Jaw (Southern
Saskatchewan) where the atmosphere was the complete opposite. All
urban centers seem to have their problems.
--
Al

Proton Soup
November 24th 03, 05:48 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:29:01 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:21:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>>>Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
>>>tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
>>>problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
>>>was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
>>>covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
>>>racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
>>>the past.
>>
>>I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
>>in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
>>The accusation was that they were.
>
>Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
>the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
>cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
>loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
>far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
>Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
>what I mean.

Aren't Indians more susceptible to alcoholism because of their
genetics? A couple more centuries of this natural selection, and
you'll probably have Indians that can out-drink Irish priests.

Proton Soup

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 05:58 AM
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:48:28 -0600, Proton Soup >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:29:01 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:21:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
>>wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
>>>>tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
>>>>problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
>>>>was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
>>>>covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
>>>>racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
>>>>the past.
>>>
>>>I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
>>>in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
>>>The accusation was that they were.
>>
>>Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
>>the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
>>cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
>>loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
>>far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
>>Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
>>what I mean.
>
>Aren't Indians more susceptible to alcoholism because of their
>genetics? A couple more centuries of this natural selection, and
>you'll probably have Indians that can out-drink Irish priests.
>
>Proton Soup

It wasn't Winchester and Remington that won the West. It was Old
Grandad and Jack Daniels.

Big Chris
November 24th 03, 05:59 AM
John Hanson wrote:
> Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
> the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
> cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
> loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
> far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
> Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
> what I mean.

Rosebud, Lower Brule, Crow Creek, Standing Rock, Pine Ridge plus the Yankton
Sioux Reservations. I have worked with all these groups (various groups of
Sioux Indian for the most part) from 1997-2002. The drunks were
occasionally a problem, but the larger problems are with sober ones who have
no vehicle and just start walking hoping somebody will pick them up.
Usually somebody does, but when nobody does the results can be deadly. My
former roommate is a Paramedic for the Rosebud Sioux, and can tell you
stories that are beyond belief. For those who haven't been there, stop by a
South Dakota Reservation some time, and witness the third world countries
within the USA borders.

BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
of bread. Bad stuff!

Big Chris

Lucas Buck
November 24th 03, 08:08 AM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:41:35 GMT, "Al" > wrote:

>Lee Michaels > wrote:
>> I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw
>> it in passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>>
>> Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I
>> can't spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police
>> stranding native americans out of town in the winter. This often
>> leads to their death. Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around
>> these parts.
>>
>> This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and
>> warmth at a power station. He lived to testify against his two
>> captors and they got fired. They also served some kind of minimal
>> sentence. The article maintained that this has been done for many
>> years. It was a little genocide policy practiced against poor,
>> native american troublemakers. Or so the article says.
>>
>> What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality
>> still exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a
>> cold climate. This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I
>> can't see anybody volunteering information that would incriminate
>> themselves.
>>
>> I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the
>> niceties disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>>
>> Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I
>> am not sure what to believe here.
>
>Seems to be true,
>
>http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/064.html for incidents from
>2000
>and the Washington Post from yesterday,
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/996834.asp?0cl=cR&cp1=1#BODY
>
>Years ago my brother was an RCMP constable in Northern Saskatchewan.
>This was pretty far from most civilization and he said there weren't
>too many problems getting along with the natives. Not long before he
>left the force, he was transferred to Moose Jaw (Southern
>Saskatchewan) where the atmosphere was the complete opposite. All
>urban centers seem to have their problems.

Moose Jaw is an urban center?

MD
November 24th 03, 10:38 AM
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
wrote:

>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
>of bread. Bad stuff!
>
>Big Chris
>


Which is what?

MD

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 01:20 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:29:01 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:

>Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
>the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
>cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
>loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
>far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
>Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
>what I mean.

I don't have to John.
I work on Main St. in Winnipeg. (largest native population in Canada
and possibly even larger than Minnie - 10% of our population is at
least part native)
They are just a couple of blocks away.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 01:23 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:38:55 -0500, MD > wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
>wrote:
>
>>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
>>of bread. Bad stuff!
>>
>>Big Chris
>>
>
>
>Which is what?
>
>MD

I have to admit that I haven't seen that one.
Here they just mix it (or hairpray) with water or pop if they can find
it.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 01:24 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:08:29 GMT, Lucas Buck
> wrote:

>Moose Jaw is an urban center?

Genrally speaking, yes.
Has a pop of about 50,000 and only 40 minutes from Regina.
At least it passes for one on the prairies.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 02:34 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:38:55 -0500, MD > wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
>wrote:
>
>>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
>>of bread. Bad stuff!
>>
>>Big Chris
>>
>
>
>Which is what?
>
>MD

They filter the alcohol in Lysol through the bread then eat the bread.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 02:43 PM
In article <[email protected]_s03>, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:

> I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
> passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>
> Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
> spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
> native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
> Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>
> This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
> a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
> fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
> maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
> policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
> article says.
>
> What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
> exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
> This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
> volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>
> I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
> disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>
> Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
> sure what to believe here.

You came to the right guy. My Dad was a 25 year + vet on the police force
which did this.

And yes, it happened. But the whole thing about dropping off inebriated
natives out of town started innocently enough.

Some background. Our entire social system up here really has let the
aboriginal people down - I think the PC term is 'disenfranchised' or
whatever. I have a great deal of sympathy for the problems our natives are
having and hopefully my comments won't be considered racist on my part.

Anyhow, substance abuse is common and when substance abuse is common
physical abuse among families is common. So what the police force would
find happening is a big party, someone gets drunk and starts a fight,
someone calls police to come on down and arrest the big drunk who nobody
else at the house or party can control. Police come on down and arrest the
guy (or women as the case may be), due the paperwork (considerable
paperwork) to have the guy charged with assault only to find during the
court appearance nobody can remember anything. In fact, often in domestic
disputes the police would pick up the drunk and the women who had the crap
beat out of her would be telling her partner not to worry, she'd come on
down and bail him out. The poor flatfoot knows darn well he is wasting
time and taxpayers money in this case, so what became a very common thing
was taking the drunk out of town about 5 miles and dropping him off.

The drop-off site was out by a power station by the river. Between the
river, the way the city is shaped and the lights no matter how drunk a guy
is eventually he'll wonder back into town, probably pretty much sober
after the walk. It was actually a good idea and nobody - including the
natives - complained about it. This was also done to the rest of the
population at certain times including a policeman's kid who will be
unnamed. Instead of charging the kid with drunk driving and resisting
arrest they drove him out of town, drove his car home and let him walk it
off.

Good idea - unless the weather is freezing where a drunk could get
seriously hurt. Common sense prevailed among most policeman. What my dad
preferred to do was see if there were any outstanding warrants on the
drunk and enforce them instead of charging him with assault. At least that
way the guy was inconvenienced and might think about whaling away on the
old lady after a few drinks.

Unfortunately a couple of cops were stupid and lazy and decided to keep
dropping off drunks through the winter. There was little sympathy for
these guys amongst the rank and file as it was just a dumb thing to do.

The story about finding shelter at the power station I haven't heard. I
worked at that power station and it was locked up at night - you weren't
getting into the station unless you went over an 8' fence with barbed wire
on top, so I'm a little suspicious of that one. But it was a good drop off
site because the road was lit, you were some miles out from the city
proper, but you were pretty much forced to head back to the city just by
the shape of the river and the city at that point.

I don't think this is a 'wild west' thing. It is common among police
officers to develop their own solutions to some difficulties. I personally
have been at the receiving end twice of policeman's justice because I was
a trifle wild and if I felt the policeman was behaving poorly (and I was
raised surrounded by cops) I would tee off on the policeman. Once I didn't
realize the guy was a cop - he basically started off after a friend - and
I laid him out. This led to a few trips up and down in the elevator at the
police station. There is a blind spot in the video surveillance cameras so
the police would get some phone books, place the victim in the corner of
the elevator while cuffed and then pound on him in the torso through the
books. So you got the shock and pain on the guts and kidneys, but no
bruises. The cops were quite apologetic when they found out who I was.
("Why the hell didn't you tell us you were Jack's son?")

Another time I was out of town and had opportunity and motive to break an
RCMP officers nose. So they handcuff you to the front of the cruiser -
down below the bumper so you're bent almost in two - and then start
backing up forcing you to either run hobbled up with the cruiser or go for
a drag on the gravel road. Really hurts the back - if I was smart I'd
probably just have laid down on the road because they can't really drag
you. Too much evidence.

I won't mention getting pulled over in North Dakota and pulled out of the
car with a revolver barrel in my ear. Except to say this isn't restricted
to Canada.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 02:45 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:40:38 -0600, Bob Mann >
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
> >>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
> >>
> >>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
> >>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
> >>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
> >>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
> >>
> >>This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
> >>a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
> >>fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
> >>maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
> >>policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
> >>article says.
> >>
> >>What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
> >>exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
> >>This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
> >>volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
> >>
> >>I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
> >>disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
> >>
> >>Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
> >>sure what to believe here.
> >>
> >It definitely happened and it happened in Keith's hometown, Sakatoon.
> >I don't think it'st a habit though. Just a couple of cops trying to
> >shorten the justice cycle.
> >Racist cops are always going to be there. We used to have a peceived
> >problem with that in Winnipeg too although the police department has
> >taken some very large steps to get rid of thet element.
> >I say perceived because I don't know for sure if it was there, I
> >imagine it was, but there were hearings which were somewhat
> >inconclusive after a shooting death involving a cop and a Native.
>
> Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
> tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
> problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
> was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
> covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
> racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
> the past.

I think the concensus was that dropping them off in the middle of winter
was stupid and the cops were lazy. A lot of good cops dropped off people
in the spring, summer and fall and I don't think they were racist.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 02:46 PM
In article >, wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> > wrote:
>
> >Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
> >tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
> >problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
> >was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
> >covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
> >racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
> >the past.
>
> I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
> in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
> The accusation was that they were.

This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly say it was
common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I _know_ this practise wasn't
restricted to natives.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 02:50 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:21:46 -0600, Bob Mann >
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
> >>tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
> >>problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
> >>was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
> >>covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
> >>racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
> >>the past.
> >
> >I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
> >in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
> >The accusation was that they were.
>
> Well, in Minneapolis (which has the largest urban Indian population in
> the country), it's only the Indians that get drunk and pass out in the
> cold. You will also see empty rubbing alcohol bottles, Lysol cans and
> loaves of bread under overpasses that are inhabited by Indians. As
> far as drunk Indians dying in the cold, swing by Rosebud, Wounded
> Knee, Red Lake or Leech Lake during the Winter months and you'll see
> what I mean.

I worked one summer on garbage pick-up when I was in university. Sometimes
got partnered up with this women who was cute, but a little naive. So we
had one rougher section of the city we picked up once per week and a few
houses where, during the weeks they distributed welfare checks, you'd pick
up bags and bags of cheap wine. During the off weeks you'd pick up bags
and bags of Lysol. The women says to me at one stop where we picked up
probably 300-400 cans of Lysol (all with a hole punctured in the bottom of
the can), "This must be the cleanest house in Sasaktoon!"

I really did LOL!

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 02:53 PM
In article >, wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:38:55 -0500, MD > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
> >>of bread. Bad stuff!
> >>
> >>Big Chris
> >>
> >
> >
> >Which is what?
> >
> >MD
>
> I have to admit that I haven't seen that one.
> Here they just mix it (or hairpray) with water or pop if they can find
> it.

Lysol and bread is much cleaner. You poke a hole in the bottom of the
Lysol tin and then use the bread to soak the spray and eat the bread.
Supposedly a pretty clean drunk. As opposed to some of the other
practises.

The way their eyes get yellow after doing this for some time is pretty scary.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

John Hanson
November 24th 03, 02:55 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:45:15 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:40:38 -0600, Bob Mann >
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 03:51:16 GMT, "Lee Michaels"
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>> >>passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>> >>
>> >>Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>> >>spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>> >>native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>> >>Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>> >>
>> >>This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
>> >>a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
>> >>fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
>> >>maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
>> >>policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
>> >>article says.
>> >>
>> >>What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
>> >>exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
>> >>This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
>> >>volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>> >>
>> >>I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
>> >>disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>> >>
>> >>Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
>> >>sure what to believe here.
>> >>
>> >It definitely happened and it happened in Keith's hometown, Sakatoon.
>> >I don't think it'st a habit though. Just a couple of cops trying to
>> >shorten the justice cycle.
>> >Racist cops are always going to be there. We used to have a peceived
>> >problem with that in Winnipeg too although the police department has
>> >taken some very large steps to get rid of thet element.
>> >I say perceived because I don't know for sure if it was there, I
>> >imagine it was, but there were hearings which were somewhat
>> >inconclusive after a shooting death involving a cop and a Native.
>>
>> Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
>> tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
>> problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
>> was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
>> covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
>> racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
>> the past.
>
>I think the concensus was that dropping them off in the middle of winter
>was stupid and the cops were lazy. A lot of good cops dropped off people
>in the spring, summer and fall and I don't think they were racist.

I guess that was my point. Cops get tired of being on "drunk cleanup
patrol" and don't really care what color of skin the skid row drunk
has. Leaving someone out in the cold to freeze to death is just plain
wrong but it doesn't mean they did it because they are racist.

Wayne S. Hill
November 24th 03, 03:02 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly
> say it was common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I _know_
> this practise wasn't restricted to natives.

Oh, right, as if. HOW could you POSSIBLY know this practice
wasn't restricted to natives? <snicker>

--
-Wayne

Helgi Briem
November 24th 03, 03:09 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:43:31 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>Another time I was out of town and had opportunity and motive to break an
>RCMP officers nose. So they handcuff you to the front of the cruiser -
>down below the bumper so you're bent almost in two - and then start
>backing up forcing you to either run hobbled up with the cruiser or go for
>a drag on the gravel road. Really hurts the back - if I was smart I'd
>probably just have laid down on the road because they can't really drag
>you. Too much evidence.

Keerist. Sounds like "Rambo: First Blood" wasn't fictional
after all.

MJL
November 24th 03, 03:10 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:43:31 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]_s03>, "Lee Michaels"
> wrote:
>
>> I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
>> passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
>>
>> Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
>> spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
>> native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their death.
>> Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
>>
>> This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and warmth at
>> a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
>> fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
>> maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
>> policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
>> article says.
>>
>> What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
>> exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
>> This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
>> volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
>>
>> I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
>> disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
>>
>> Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
>> sure what to believe here.
>
>You came to the right guy. My Dad was a 25 year + vet on the police force
>which did this.
>
>And yes, it happened. But the whole thing about dropping off inebriated
>natives out of town started innocently enough.
>
>Some background. Our entire social system up here really has let the
>aboriginal people down - I think the PC term is 'disenfranchised' or
>whatever. I have a great deal of sympathy for the problems our natives are
>having and hopefully my comments won't be considered racist on my part.
>
>Anyhow, substance abuse is common and when substance abuse is common
>physical abuse among families is common. So what the police force would
>find happening is a big party, someone gets drunk and starts a fight,
>someone calls police to come on down and arrest the big drunk who nobody
>else at the house or party can control. Police come on down and arrest the
>guy (or women as the case may be), due the paperwork (considerable
>paperwork) to have the guy charged with assault only to find during the
>court appearance nobody can remember anything. In fact, often in domestic
>disputes the police would pick up the drunk and the women who had the crap
>beat out of her would be telling her partner not to worry, she'd come on
>down and bail him out. The poor flatfoot knows darn well he is wasting
>time and taxpayers money in this case, so what became a very common thing
>was taking the drunk out of town about 5 miles and dropping him off.
>
>The drop-off site was out by a power station by the river. Between the
>river, the way the city is shaped and the lights no matter how drunk a guy
>is eventually he'll wonder back into town, probably pretty much sober
>after the walk. It was actually a good idea and nobody - including the
>natives - complained about it. This was also done to the rest of the
>population at certain times including a policeman's kid who will be
>unnamed. Instead of charging the kid with drunk driving and resisting
>arrest they drove him out of town, drove his car home and let him walk it
>off.
>
>Good idea - unless the weather is freezing where a drunk could get
>seriously hurt. Common sense prevailed among most policeman. What my dad
>preferred to do was see if there were any outstanding warrants on the
>drunk and enforce them instead of charging him with assault. At least that
>way the guy was inconvenienced and might think about whaling away on the
>old lady after a few drinks.
>
>Unfortunately a couple of cops were stupid and lazy and decided to keep
>dropping off drunks through the winter. There was little sympathy for
>these guys amongst the rank and file as it was just a dumb thing to do.
>
>The story about finding shelter at the power station I haven't heard. I
>worked at that power station and it was locked up at night - you weren't
>getting into the station unless you went over an 8' fence with barbed wire
>on top, so I'm a little suspicious of that one. But it was a good drop off
>site because the road was lit, you were some miles out from the city
>proper, but you were pretty much forced to head back to the city just by
>the shape of the river and the city at that point.
>
>I don't think this is a 'wild west' thing. It is common among police
>officers to develop their own solutions to some difficulties. I personally
>have been at the receiving end twice of policeman's justice because I was
>a trifle wild and if I felt the policeman was behaving poorly (and I was
>raised surrounded by cops) I would tee off on the policeman. Once I didn't
>realize the guy was a cop - he basically started off after a friend - and
>I laid him out. This led to a few trips up and down in the elevator at the
>police station. There is a blind spot in the video surveillance cameras so
>the police would get some phone books, place the victim in the corner of
>the elevator while cuffed and then pound on him in the torso through the
>books. So you got the shock and pain on the guts and kidneys, but no
>bruises. The cops were quite apologetic when they found out who I was.
>("Why the hell didn't you tell us you were Jack's son?")

I can't believe police officers do this! They should all come learn
how to be morally correct from the NYPD. You woods dwelling savages.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 03:11 PM
In article >, "Wayne S. Hill"
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly
> > say it was common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I _know_
> > this practise wasn't restricted to natives.
>
> Oh, right, as if. HOW could you POSSIBLY know this practice
> wasn't restricted to natives? <snicker>

[hmmmph]

_Very_ reliable source.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Wayne S. Hill
November 24th 03, 03:13 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> Wayne S. Hill wrote:
>> Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>> > This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly
>> > say it was common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I
>> > _know_ this practise wasn't restricted to natives.
>>
>> Oh, right, as if. HOW could you POSSIBLY know this
>> practice wasn't restricted to natives? <snicker>
>
> [hmmmph]
>
> _Very_ reliable source.

Jeez, I'm not sure how reliable that source is, anymore...

;)

--
-Wayne

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 03:13 PM
In article >, MJL
> wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:43:31 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]_s03>, "Lee Michaels"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I glanced at an article today. I wish I had the article. I just saw it in
> >> passing and had to run. Did not find it later either.
> >>
> >> Evidently up there in the area where Keith lives, Sasa something, I can't
> >> spell it, there has been a practice in rural areas of police stranding
> >> native americans out of town in the winter. This often leads to their
death.
> >> Finding frozen indians is not uncommon around these parts.
> >>
> >> This was done to one guy who started walking and found shelter and
warmth at
> >> a power station. He lived to testify against his two captors and they got
> >> fired. They also served some kind of minimal sentence. The article
> >> maintained that this has been done for many years. It was a little genocide
> >> policy practiced against poor, native american troublemakers. Or so the
> >> article says.
> >>
> >> What do you know about this?? Does this sort of wild west mentality still
> >> exist in parts of the fozen north? This would only work in a cold climate.
> >> This sort of thing would be very hard to prove. And I can't see anybody
> >> volunteering information that would incriminate themselves.
> >>
> >> I know that the further you get from civilization, sone of the niceties
> >> disaappear. But this seems rather extreme.
> >>
> >> Not trying to embarass you or anything. It just seems so bizarre. I am not
> >> sure what to believe here.
> >
> >You came to the right guy. My Dad was a 25 year + vet on the police force
> >which did this.
> >
> >And yes, it happened. But the whole thing about dropping off inebriated
> >natives out of town started innocently enough.
> >
> >Some background. Our entire social system up here really has let the
> >aboriginal people down - I think the PC term is 'disenfranchised' or
> >whatever. I have a great deal of sympathy for the problems our natives are
> >having and hopefully my comments won't be considered racist on my part.
> >
> >Anyhow, substance abuse is common and when substance abuse is common
> >physical abuse among families is common. So what the police force would
> >find happening is a big party, someone gets drunk and starts a fight,
> >someone calls police to come on down and arrest the big drunk who nobody
> >else at the house or party can control. Police come on down and arrest the
> >guy (or women as the case may be), due the paperwork (considerable
> >paperwork) to have the guy charged with assault only to find during the
> >court appearance nobody can remember anything. In fact, often in domestic
> >disputes the police would pick up the drunk and the women who had the crap
> >beat out of her would be telling her partner not to worry, she'd come on
> >down and bail him out. The poor flatfoot knows darn well he is wasting
> >time and taxpayers money in this case, so what became a very common thing
> >was taking the drunk out of town about 5 miles and dropping him off.
> >
> >The drop-off site was out by a power station by the river. Between the
> >river, the way the city is shaped and the lights no matter how drunk a guy
> >is eventually he'll wonder back into town, probably pretty much sober
> >after the walk. It was actually a good idea and nobody - including the
> >natives - complained about it. This was also done to the rest of the
> >population at certain times including a policeman's kid who will be
> >unnamed. Instead of charging the kid with drunk driving and resisting
> >arrest they drove him out of town, drove his car home and let him walk it
> >off.
> >
> >Good idea - unless the weather is freezing where a drunk could get
> >seriously hurt. Common sense prevailed among most policeman. What my dad
> >preferred to do was see if there were any outstanding warrants on the
> >drunk and enforce them instead of charging him with assault. At least that
> >way the guy was inconvenienced and might think about whaling away on the
> >old lady after a few drinks.
> >
> >Unfortunately a couple of cops were stupid and lazy and decided to keep
> >dropping off drunks through the winter. There was little sympathy for
> >these guys amongst the rank and file as it was just a dumb thing to do.
> >
> >The story about finding shelter at the power station I haven't heard. I
> >worked at that power station and it was locked up at night - you weren't
> >getting into the station unless you went over an 8' fence with barbed wire
> >on top, so I'm a little suspicious of that one. But it was a good drop off
> >site because the road was lit, you were some miles out from the city
> >proper, but you were pretty much forced to head back to the city just by
> >the shape of the river and the city at that point.
> >
> >I don't think this is a 'wild west' thing. It is common among police
> >officers to develop their own solutions to some difficulties. I personally
> >have been at the receiving end twice of policeman's justice because I was
> >a trifle wild and if I felt the policeman was behaving poorly (and I was
> >raised surrounded by cops) I would tee off on the policeman. Once I didn't
> >realize the guy was a cop - he basically started off after a friend - and
> >I laid him out. This led to a few trips up and down in the elevator at the
> >police station. There is a blind spot in the video surveillance cameras so
> >the police would get some phone books, place the victim in the corner of
> >the elevator while cuffed and then pound on him in the torso through the
> >books. So you got the shock and pain on the guts and kidneys, but no
> >bruises. The cops were quite apologetic when they found out who I was.
> >("Why the hell didn't you tell us you were Jack's son?")
>
> I can't believe police officers do this! They should all come learn
> how to be morally correct from the NYPD. You woods dwelling savages.

Plains. Not woods.

LOL!! Anyhow, I've talked to a few of NY's finest. We could learn a few
tricks from them!

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 03:16 PM
In article >, "Wayne S. Hill"
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > Wayne S. Hill wrote:
> >> Keith Hobman wrote:
> >>
> >> > This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly
> >> > say it was common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I
> >> > _know_ this practise wasn't restricted to natives.
> >>
> >> Oh, right, as if. HOW could you POSSIBLY know this
> >> practice wasn't restricted to natives? <snicker>
> >
> > [hmmmph]
> >
> > _Very_ reliable source.
>
> Jeez, I'm not sure how reliable that source is, anymore...
>
> ;)

He is pretty old now and his wild days are behind him.

But if we ever have a get together I could tell a few pretty good tales.
Hearsay, naturally. And the names may have to change to protect the
guilty.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

BobMac
November 24th 03, 03:26 PM
Keith Hobman wrote:

>
> I don't think this is a 'wild west' thing. It is common among police
> officers to develop their own solutions to some difficulties.



In Toronto, some of the cops got into trouble for NOT leaving drunks out
in the cold. They used to do alley sweeps in cold weather, busting the
homeless on charges of vagrancy. The bums would live to see the morning
(albeit through bars), the cops would get a couple of hours overtime
doing the paperwork. (Heck, it's the wee small hours, your family's
already asleep, the bars are closed, overtime's not a bad thing.)
Everybody's happy, right?

WRONG! One of our civil rights activist groups got a court to declare
this practice illegal under the Charter Of Rights And Freedoms. It's
selective enforcement, donch'a know. Can't have that in a free society.
Now the homeless are free to die without police interference...


rm

Lee Michaels
November 24th 03, 03:54 PM
"BobMac" > wrote in message
...
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't think this is a 'wild west' thing. It is common among police
> > officers to develop their own solutions to some difficulties.
>
>
>
> In Toronto, some of the cops got into trouble for NOT leaving drunks out
> in the cold. They used to do alley sweeps in cold weather, busting the
> homeless on charges of vagrancy. The bums would live to see the morning
> (albeit through bars), the cops would get a couple of hours overtime
> doing the paperwork. (Heck, it's the wee small hours, your family's
> already asleep, the bars are closed, overtime's not a bad thing.)
> Everybody's happy, right?
>
> WRONG! One of our civil rights activist groups got a court to declare
> this practice illegal under the Charter Of Rights And Freedoms. It's
> selective enforcement, donch'a know. Can't have that in a free society.
> Now the homeless are free to die without police interference...
>
>
Damn The Consequences! Full Speed Ahead!! Political Correctness Rules!!

Pragmatism dies. (and so do the drunks)

Randy Shrader
November 24th 03, 06:40 PM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:14:28 GMT, John Hanson
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Why do you say they were racist? Could be that they were sick and
> > >tired of these particular people. We have had the same bull****
> > >problems with Indians in Minneapolis over the years. The last case
> > >was a lawsuit against 2 cops who put the passed out, vomit and ****
> > >covered Indian into the trunk of their cruiser. This was deemed
> > >racist even though they had hauled this guy off to detox many times in
> > >the past.
> >
> > I don't for sure if these particular cops were racist but it came out
> > in the trial that only natives were having this done to them.
> > The accusation was that they were.
>
> This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly say it was
> common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I _know_ this practise wasn't
> restricted to natives.
>
> --
> Keith Hobman
>
> --- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

But of course if no one can play the racist card, the case isn't political
enough to keep dragging on for twenty years . . .

Randy

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 06:43 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:53:43 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article >, wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:38:55 -0500, MD > wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol and loaves
>> >>of bread. Bad stuff!
>> >>
>> >>Big Chris
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >Which is what?
>> >
>> >MD
>>
>> I have to admit that I haven't seen that one.
>> Here they just mix it (or hairpray) with water or pop if they can find
>> it.
>
>Lysol and bread is much cleaner. You poke a hole in the bottom of the
>Lysol tin and then use the bread to soak the spray and eat the bread.
>Supposedly a pretty clean drunk. As opposed to some of the other
>practises.

Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
can return them for deposit.
>
>The way their eyes get yellow after doing this for some time is pretty scary.

Pretty harsh on the liver.

Keith Hobman
November 24th 03, 06:51 PM
In article >, wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:53:43 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:38:55 -0500, MD > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:59:11 -0600, "Big Chris" >
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>BTW John, most people have no idea the relationship between Lysol
and loaves
> >> >>of bread. Bad stuff!
> >> >>
> >> >>Big Chris
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Which is what?
> >> >
> >> >MD
> >>
> >> I have to admit that I haven't seen that one.
> >> Here they just mix it (or hairpray) with water or pop if they can find
> >> it.
> >
> >Lysol and bread is much cleaner. You poke a hole in the bottom of the
> >Lysol tin and then use the bread to soak the spray and eat the bread.
> >Supposedly a pretty clean drunk. As opposed to some of the other
> >practises.
>
> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
> can return them for deposit.

Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...

Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.

We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and taking
names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball. Really
good to see.

But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
so good to see.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 06:54 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:46:30 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>This is what the natives accused. The police could hardly say it was
>common among everyone. But trust me Bob, I _know_ this practise wasn't
>restricted to natives.

That part seems to have been filtered out by the time the news got
here.
I can believe it though.
I worked at the Welfare Dept here for 5 and a half years so I have
seen most of it.
Saskatoon is an okay size to do that, Winnipeg is just a bit too
spread out. Not that it's huge, just that it's probably going to be
twice as far inside the city as it would be to get to the city.

Lucas Buck
November 24th 03, 09:44 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 07:24:56 -0600, Bob Mann > wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:08:29 GMT, Lucas Buck
> wrote:
>
>>Moose Jaw is an urban center?
>
>Genrally speaking, yes.
>Has a pop of about 50,000 and only 40 minutes from Regina.
>At least it passes for one on the prairies.

My apologies. I was thinking of Moose Factory or Moosonee,
with populations in the hundreds, IIRC.

Lucas Buck
November 24th 03, 09:52 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:10:25 GMT, MJL > wrote:


>I can't believe police officers do this! They should all come learn
>how to be morally correct from the NYPD. You woods dwelling savages.

Sure, just ask Abner Louima about NYPD moral correctness.

Bob Mann
November 24th 03, 11:16 PM
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
>> can return them for deposit.
>
>Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
>sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...

no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
>
>Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.

Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
>
>We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and taking
>names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball. Really
>good to see.

We have some of that here too.
>
>But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
>so good to see.

And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
Hells Angels took everything over.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Keith Hobman
November 25th 03, 01:59 PM
In article >, wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
> >> can return them for deposit.
> >
> >Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
> >sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...
>
> no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
> spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
> >
> >Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.
>
> Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
> >
> >We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and taking
> >names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball. Really
> >good to see.
>
> We have some of that here too.
> >
> >But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
> >so good to see.
>
> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
> Hells Angels took everything over.

We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang was an
affiliate.

The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs. Heavy
drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs, who are
seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the arsenal of the
asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian gangs aren't
aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on their own
ethnicity. For now.

The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Peter Rosa
November 25th 03, 05:46 PM
(Keith Hobman) wrote in message >...

> Lysol and bread is much cleaner. You poke a hole in the bottom of the
> Lysol tin and then use the bread to soak the spray and eat the bread.
> Supposedly a pretty clean drunk. As opposed to some of the other
> practises.

I'm confused ... do you mean an aerosol can of Lysol? Wouldn't it
burst when punctured? And isn't Lysol toxic to ingest?

--
Peter Rosa

Keith Hobman
November 25th 03, 05:50 PM
In article >,
(Peter Rosa) wrote:

> (Keith Hobman) wrote in message
>...
>
> > Lysol and bread is much cleaner. You poke a hole in the bottom of the
> > Lysol tin and then use the bread to soak the spray and eat the bread.
> > Supposedly a pretty clean drunk. As opposed to some of the other
> > practises.
>
> I'm confused ... do you mean an aerosol can of Lysol? Wouldn't it
> burst when punctured? And isn't Lysol toxic to ingest?

Yes, aerosol.

And no, it won't burst. I have no idea what the mechanics of puncturing
the can are - whether you hold the top valve open or what. Just that you
puncture the can and use bread to filter the Lysol.

I suspect there is a high level of toxity in Lysol.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Jose Yimpho
November 26th 03, 03:12 AM
Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
>> >> can return them for deposit.
>> >
>> >Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
>> >sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...
>>
>> no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
>> spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
>> >
>> >Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.
>>
>> Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
>> >
>> >We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and
>> >taking names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball.
>> >Really good to see.
>>
>> We have some of that here too.
>> >
>> >But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
>> >so good to see.
>>
>> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
>> Hells Angels took everything over.
>
> We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang was an
> affiliate.
>
> The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs. Heavy
> drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs, who are
> seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the arsenal of the
> asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian gangs aren't
> aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on their own
> ethnicity. For now.
>
> The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.
>

There's gangs in Canada?

I'll be damned.

Big Chris
November 26th 03, 05:59 AM
Jose Yimpho wrote:
>>> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
>>> Hells Angels took everything over.
>>
>> We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang
>> was an affiliate.
>>
>> The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs.
>> Heavy drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs,
>> who are seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the
>> arsenal of the asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian
>> gangs aren't aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on
>> their own ethnicity. For now.
>>
>> The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.
>>
>
> There's gangs in Canada?
>
> I'll be damned.

Yeah, they fight over who controls which rink. You ever been hit with a
sack of pucks? These are not people to mess with.......

Big Chris

Keith Hobman
November 26th 03, 02:04 PM
In article <[email protected]_s02>, Jose Yimpho
> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
> >> >> can return them for deposit.
> >> >
> >> >Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
> >> >sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...
> >>
> >> no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
> >> spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
> >> >
> >> >Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.
> >>
> >> Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
> >> >
> >> >We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and
> >> >taking names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball.
> >> >Really good to see.
> >>
> >> We have some of that here too.
> >> >
> >> >But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
> >> >so good to see.
> >>
> >> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
> >> Hells Angels took everything over.
> >
> > We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang was an
> > affiliate.
> >
> > The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs. Heavy
> > drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs, who are
> > seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the arsenal of the
> > asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian gangs aren't
> > aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on their own
> > ethnicity. For now.
> >
> > The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.
> >
>
> There's gangs in Canada?
>
> I'll be damned.

Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.

Quite an epic.

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Lyle McDonald
November 26th 03, 06:35 PM
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
> >> >> can return them for deposit.
> >> >
> >> >Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
> >> >sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...
> >>
> >> no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
> >> spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
> >> >
> >> >Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.
> >>
> >> Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
> >> >
> >> >We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and
> >> >taking names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball.
> >> >Really good to see.
> >>
> >> We have some of that here too.
> >> >
> >> >But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
> >> >so good to see.
> >>
> >> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
> >> Hells Angels took everything over.
> >
> > We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang was an
> > affiliate.
> >
> > The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs. Heavy
> > drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs, who are
> > seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the arsenal of the
> > asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian gangs aren't
> > aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on their own
> > ethnicity. For now.
> >
> > The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.

I am imagining a bunch of young punks with really strong midsections

http://www.workoutdelivery.com/aborigin.htm

Lyle

Jose Yimpho
November 26th 03, 09:08 PM
Big Chris wrote:

> Jose Yimpho wrote:
>>>> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
>>>> Hells Angels took everything over.
>>>
>>> We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang
>>> was an affiliate.
>>>
>>> The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs.
>>> Heavy drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs,
>>> who are seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the
>>> arsenal of the asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian
>>> gangs aren't aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on
>>> their own ethnicity. For now.
>>>
>>> The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.
>>>
>>
>> There's gangs in Canada?
>>
>> I'll be damned.
>
> Yeah, they fight over who controls which rink. You ever been hit with a
> sack of pucks? These are not people to mess with.......
>
> Big Chris

I thought you'd be hit with a bunch of curls or whatever they are.

I was up in Canada once for a swim meet a few years ago. Half the tv shows
were on some weird curling thing.

Big Chris
November 26th 03, 09:55 PM
Jose Yimpho wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, they fight over who controls which rink. You ever been hit
>> with a sack of pucks? These are not people to mess with.......
>>
>> Big Chris
>
> I thought you'd be hit with a bunch of curls or whatever they are.
>
> I was up in Canada once for a swim meet a few years ago. Half the
> tv shows were on some weird curling thing.

Curling was a great invention. It's a sport where when you set your beer
down to shoot, the beer gets colder!

Big Chris

Bob Mann
November 27th 03, 02:42 AM
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]_s02>, Jose Yimpho
> wrote:
>
>> Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:51:52 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Possibly because they use 2 litre plastic bottles here and you guys
>> >> >> can return them for deposit.
>> >> >
>> >> >Might be that way here now as well. The cans go back some years. I'm not
>> >> >sure that the propellant doesn't provide some of the high tho...
>> >>
>> >> no no, I meant that they can't get any money for the bottles so they
>> >> spray the stuff in to the bottle and mix with water.
>> >> >
>> >> >Its not the sort of thing I'd like to research. A lot of tragedies.
>> >>
>> >> Always hairspray cans and Lysol cans in the lane behind my work.
>> >> >
>> >> >We've got some young native sports teams that are kicking butt and
>> >> >taking names, coming out of the inner city. Mostly hockey and baseball.
>> >> >Really good to see.
>> >>
>> >> We have some of that here too.
>> >> >
>> >> >But we also are starting to get affiliatives to your Winnipeg gangs. Not
>> >> >so good to see.
>> >>
>> >> And meanwhile, my son says the gangs here are dying off because the
>> >> Hells Angels took everything over.
>> >
>> > We've had the angels here for years. And before that the local gang was an
>> > affiliate.
>> >
>> > The angels tend to control prostitution and they are into drugs. Heavy
>> > drugs still tend to be under the control of the asian gangs, who are
>> > seriously freakin' scary. The angels won't touch them - the arsenal of the
>> > asian gangs is beyond belief. Also for now the asian gangs aren't
>> > aggressive, unless you are asian. They tend to prey on their own
>> > ethnicity. For now.
>> >
>> > The aboriginal gangs are more into violence and petty crime.
>> >
>>
>> There's gangs in Canada?
>>
>> I'll be damned.
>
>Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>
>Quite an epic.

And now that the Rock Machine have joined forces with the Bandidos,
the recent calm looks sure to be short lived as they attempt to move
west.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Bob Mann
November 27th 03, 02:44 AM
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>
>Quite an epic.

Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

John Hanson
November 27th 03, 03:46 AM
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44:37 -0600, Bob Mann > wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>wrote:
>
>>Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>
>>Quite an epic.
>
>Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.

Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of St. Paul
back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.

Big Chris
November 27th 03, 04:42 AM
John Hanson wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44:37 -0600, Bob Mann >
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith
>> Hobman) wrote:
>>
>>> Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>>
>>> Quite an epic.
>>
>> Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>> and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired
>> Pre-Angels.
>> He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>
> Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of
> St. Paul back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.

The head Angel in Minneapolis just got sent up the river, lost his shop, and
paid $600K to the government.

Big Chris



http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/4234190.html

Hell's Angels chapter head gets 17-year prison term
Jim Adams, Star Tribune

Published November 26, 2003 ANGL26

Having hugged family members goodbye, a gentle-mannered Patrick J. Matter --
once considered the godfather of Minnesota's Hell's Angels motorcycle
gang -- walked out of a federal courtroom and into the arms of the prison
system Tuesday.

Gang investigators, pleased that they had brought down the longtime Angels
chapter president and many of his colleagues, also wondered which other
motorcycle gangs might jockey to expand in the weakened chapter's place.

"Hell's Angels were top dogs in Minnesota," said Andy Shoemaker, a
biker-gang expert with the state's Gang Strike Force. "There will definitely
be some other gangs that look at this as an opportunity to expand their
territories."

Matter, 52, pleaded guilty last spring to money laundering and conspiracy to
distribute methamphetamine.

On Tuesday morning, Chief U.S. District Judge James Rosenbaum sentenced
Matter to 17 1/2 years in prison, a sentence that includes extra time for
leading and organizing criminal activity involving five or more people.
Matter also gave up nearly $600,000 in cash as part of his conviction.

The Hell's Angels, an international gang, is the most powerful biker gang in
the country, investigators said. And Minnesota's chapter, led by Matter, was
a leader in the United States, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Paulsen said.

"When Matter was head of that thing, he ran it with an iron fist," Paulsen
said. "One of his rules was that 'No other motorcycle gang members can fly
their colors within a certain radius from my territory.' "

Since the beginning of the seven-year investigation, the gang has shrunk
from 18 active members to nine who are not incarcerated, officials said.
Federal officials have filed forfeiture papers on the gang's north
Minneapolis club house. The investigation was handled by an interagency task
force that included the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office, the Minnesota
Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service.

A total of 28 people, including some California drug suppliers and runners
associated with the gang, were convicted of drug-related and other crimes
and were sentenced to an average of more than six years each, Paulsen said.

Michael T. Eason, 54, of Zimmerman, Minn., also was sentenced Tuesday to
four years in prison and was ordered to pay $57,000 in restitution for
conspiring to distribute methamphetamine and fraudulently obtaining Social
Security disability benefits while working at Matter's Minneapolis Custom
Cycle shop. The U.S. attorney's office said Matter conspired with Eason to
distribute the drug.

Paulsen said Matter is the highest-level motorcycle gang member convicted in
Minnesota. Authorities will be watching to see whether other gangs -- such
as the Outlaws, which has Wisconsin chapters, or the Sons of Silence, which
meets in outstate Minnesota -- assert themselves in the Twin Cities.

But former Gang Strike Force member Roy Green said he doesn't expect the
Hell's Angels to wither away.

"I think they still will be No. 1 because they're international," he said.

In court Tuesday, Matter said he was sorry for the crimes he committed and
for hurting people.

His San Francisco attorney, Alan Caplan, told the judge that Matter has
concentrated on his family and business in recent years.

Rosenbaum acknowledged that he'd received many letters from Matter, his
family members and friends. But the judge said families affected by the
methamphetamine weren't represented in the courtroom. At a certain point,
the scales come even," Rosenbaum said, adding later, "I feel bad. I feel
worse for your family." But Matter brought the sentence on himself, the
judge said.

Paulsen said he hopes other gangs will get the message that biker gangs are
not immune from prosecution here.

He said investigators knew Matter was involved in drug trafficking as early
as 1990, when a gang member said as much, but he took a 10-year sentence
rather than provide incriminating information.

The Angels avoided prosecution for years because "they had such a rigid code
of silence," Paulsen said. "It took so long because people were scared to
death to cooperate against Pat Matter because they knew he was president of
the Angels and had a bunch of big biker guys ready and willing to take care
of any informants."

One key break in the case happened in 1996 when about 5 pounds of cocaine
owned by Matter was stolen from a friend's garage, Paulsen said. Matter and
his gang started roughing up people to find out who stole it, and someone
involved got mad and provided information, investigators said.

Matter, who lived in Corcoran, "acted like a legitimate entrepreneur," once
testifying at the Legislature for a bill that would make it easier for
people to get forfeited vehicles back from police, said Gang Strike Force
Cmdr. Ron Ryan. The bill was withdrawn after the sponsor was informed that
Matter was a known gang member, Ryan said.

"Matter was like the godfather," Ryan said.

Jim Adams is at .

John Hanson
November 27th 03, 05:28 AM
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:42:38 -0600, "Big Chris" >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>John Hanson wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44:37 -0600, Bob Mann >
>> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith
>>> Hobman) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>>>
>>>> Quite an epic.
>>>
>>> Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>>> and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired
>>> Pre-Angels.
>>> He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>>
>> Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of
>> St. Paul back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.
>
>The head Angel in Minneapolis just got sent up the river, lost his shop, and
>paid $600K to the government.
>
>Big Chris
>

Notice none of them were from St. Paul.

>
>http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/4234190.html
>
>Hell's Angels chapter head gets 17-year prison term
> Jim Adams, Star Tribune
>
> Published November 26, 2003 ANGL26
>
>Having hugged family members goodbye, a gentle-mannered Patrick J. Matter --
>once considered the godfather of Minnesota's Hell's Angels motorcycle
>gang -- walked out of a federal courtroom and into the arms of the prison
>system Tuesday.
>
>Gang investigators, pleased that they had brought down the longtime Angels
>chapter president and many of his colleagues, also wondered which other
>motorcycle gangs might jockey to expand in the weakened chapter's place.
>
>"Hell's Angels were top dogs in Minnesota," said Andy Shoemaker, a
>biker-gang expert with the state's Gang Strike Force. "There will definitely
>be some other gangs that look at this as an opportunity to expand their
>territories."
>
>Matter, 52, pleaded guilty last spring to money laundering and conspiracy to
>distribute methamphetamine.
>
>On Tuesday morning, Chief U.S. District Judge James Rosenbaum sentenced
>Matter to 17 1/2 years in prison, a sentence that includes extra time for
>leading and organizing criminal activity involving five or more people.
>Matter also gave up nearly $600,000 in cash as part of his conviction.
>
>The Hell's Angels, an international gang, is the most powerful biker gang in
>the country, investigators said. And Minnesota's chapter, led by Matter, was
>a leader in the United States, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Paulsen said.
>
>"When Matter was head of that thing, he ran it with an iron fist," Paulsen
>said. "One of his rules was that 'No other motorcycle gang members can fly
>their colors within a certain radius from my territory.' "
>
>Since the beginning of the seven-year investigation, the gang has shrunk
>from 18 active members to nine who are not incarcerated, officials said.
>Federal officials have filed forfeiture papers on the gang's north
>Minneapolis club house. The investigation was handled by an interagency task
>force that included the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office, the Minnesota
>Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the U.S. Internal Revenue Service.
>
>A total of 28 people, including some California drug suppliers and runners
>associated with the gang, were convicted of drug-related and other crimes
>and were sentenced to an average of more than six years each, Paulsen said.
>
>Michael T. Eason, 54, of Zimmerman, Minn., also was sentenced Tuesday to
>four years in prison and was ordered to pay $57,000 in restitution for
>conspiring to distribute methamphetamine and fraudulently obtaining Social
>Security disability benefits while working at Matter's Minneapolis Custom
>Cycle shop. The U.S. attorney's office said Matter conspired with Eason to
>distribute the drug.
>
>Paulsen said Matter is the highest-level motorcycle gang member convicted in
>Minnesota. Authorities will be watching to see whether other gangs -- such
>as the Outlaws, which has Wisconsin chapters, or the Sons of Silence, which
>meets in outstate Minnesota -- assert themselves in the Twin Cities.
>
>But former Gang Strike Force member Roy Green said he doesn't expect the
>Hell's Angels to wither away.
>
>"I think they still will be No. 1 because they're international," he said.
>
>In court Tuesday, Matter said he was sorry for the crimes he committed and
>for hurting people.
>
>His San Francisco attorney, Alan Caplan, told the judge that Matter has
>concentrated on his family and business in recent years.
>
>Rosenbaum acknowledged that he'd received many letters from Matter, his
>family members and friends. But the judge said families affected by the
>methamphetamine weren't represented in the courtroom. At a certain point,
>the scales come even," Rosenbaum said, adding later, "I feel bad. I feel
>worse for your family." But Matter brought the sentence on himself, the
>judge said.
>
>Paulsen said he hopes other gangs will get the message that biker gangs are
>not immune from prosecution here.
>
>He said investigators knew Matter was involved in drug trafficking as early
>as 1990, when a gang member said as much, but he took a 10-year sentence
>rather than provide incriminating information.
>
>The Angels avoided prosecution for years because "they had such a rigid code
>of silence," Paulsen said. "It took so long because people were scared to
>death to cooperate against Pat Matter because they knew he was president of
>the Angels and had a bunch of big biker guys ready and willing to take care
>of any informants."
>
>One key break in the case happened in 1996 when about 5 pounds of cocaine
>owned by Matter was stolen from a friend's garage, Paulsen said. Matter and
>his gang started roughing up people to find out who stole it, and someone
>involved got mad and provided information, investigators said.
>
>Matter, who lived in Corcoran, "acted like a legitimate entrepreneur," once
>testifying at the Legislature for a bill that would make it easier for
>people to get forfeited vehicles back from police, said Gang Strike Force
>Cmdr. Ron Ryan. The bill was withdrawn after the sponsor was informed that
>Matter was a known gang member, Ryan said.
>
>"Matter was like the godfather," Ryan said.
>
>Jim Adams is at .
>

Randy Shrader
November 27th 03, 05:48 AM
"Bob Mann" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
> >
> >Quite an epic.
>
> Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
> and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
> He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
> --
> Bob Mann

I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.

Randy

Keith Hobman
November 27th 03, 02:20 PM
In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
> wrote:

> "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
> > >
> > >Quite an epic.
> >
> > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
> > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
> > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
> > --
> > Bob Mann
>
> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.

Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.

You live in the holiday park area?

--
Keith Hobman

--- email address above is a non-monitored spam sink.

Randy Shrader
November 27th 03, 04:02 PM
"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
> > > >
> > > >Quite an epic.
> > >
> > > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
> > > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
> > > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
> > > --
> > > Bob Mann
> >
> > I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
> > lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>
> Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>
> You live in the holiday park area?
>
> --
> Keith Hobman
>

Yep. I base my vehicle break-in estimate on my scientific study of the lack
of little piles of broken safety glass on the street in the morning.

Randy

Lucas Buck
November 27th 03, 06:13 PM
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:02:46 GMT, "Randy Shrader" > wrote:

>"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>> > > >
>> > > >Quite an epic.
>> > >
>> > > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>> > > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>> > > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>> > > --
>> > > Bob Mann
>> >
>> > I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
>> > lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>>
>> Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>>
>> You live in the holiday park area?
>>
>> --
>> Keith Hobman
>>
>
>Yep. I base my vehicle break-in estimate on my scientific study of the lack
>of little piles of broken safety glass on the street in the morning.
>
>Randy

Unless Canadian car burglars politely clean up after themselves.

Bob Mann
November 28th 03, 04:25 AM
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:46:52 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44:37 -0600, Bob Mann > wrote in
>misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>>
>>>Quite an epic.
>>
>>Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>>and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>>He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>
>Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of St. Paul
>back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.

These guys were all Los Brovos before. Had a major patch over a few
years back. My wife's cousin is a cop and was assigned to keep an eye
on them. Half of them are in jail awaiting trial for various offences
anyway.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Bob Mann
November 28th 03, 04:28 AM
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:20:22 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
> wrote:
>
>> "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>> > >
>> > >Quite an epic.
>> >
>> > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>> > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>> > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>> > --
>> > Bob Mann
>>
>> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
>> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>
>Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>
>You live in the holiday park area?

They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
They don't let anyone else do it either.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Bob Mann
November 28th 03, 04:29 AM
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:13:35 GMT, Lucas Buck
> wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:02:46 GMT, "Randy Shrader" > wrote:
>
>>"Keith Hobman" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> > "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
>>> > ...
>>> > > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >Quite an epic.
>>> > >
>>> > > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>>> > > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>>> > > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>>> > > --
>>> > > Bob Mann
>>> >
>>> > I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
>>> > lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>>>
>>> Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>>>
>>> You live in the holiday park area?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Keith Hobman
>>>
>>
>>Yep. I base my vehicle break-in estimate on my scientific study of the lack
>>of little piles of broken safety glass on the street in the morning.
>>
>>Randy
>
>Unless Canadian car burglars politely clean up after themselves.

Car theft and break-ins are pretty bad on the prairies and especially
in Winnipeg.
They have had no break ins of cars or houses and they live in an area
that is normally ripe for that type of activity.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

thewhit
November 28th 03, 04:32 AM
Bob Mann > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:20:22 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, "Randy Shrader"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Bob Mann" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith
Hobman)
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
> >> > >
> >> > >Quite an epic.
> >> >
> >> > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
> >> > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired
Pre-Angels.
> >> > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
> >> > --
> >> > Bob Mann
> >>
> >> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
> >> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
> >
> >Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
> >
> >You live in the holiday park area?
>
> They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
> They don't let anyone else do it either.
> --
> Bob Mann

neighborhoods that are mafia enclaves, in the states, are well known for
having VERY low crime rates (against ordinary citizens).

nobody dares mug the little old lady, or do that kind of stuff in a mafia
neighborhood.

because they will get severely beaten, if not killed.

they don't fear the cops. they FEAR the mafia.

very safe neighborhoods.

whit

>
> It's always darkest just before dawn.
> So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
> That's the time to do it.

John Hanson
November 28th 03, 04:37 AM
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:25:57 -0600, Bob Mann >
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:46:52 GMT, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44:37 -0600, Bob Mann > wrote in
>>misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:07 -0600, (Keith Hobman)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
>>>>
>>>>Quite an epic.
>>>
>>>Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of doors down
>>>and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired Pre-Angels.
>>>He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
>>
>>Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of St. Paul
>>back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.
>
>These guys were all Los Brovos before. Had a major patch over a few
>years back. My wife's cousin is a cop and was assigned to keep an eye
>on them. Half of them are in jail awaiting trial for various offences
>anyway.

The Outcasts are pretty much gone now too. The leader (can't remember
his name now) ended up going to prison for murder. He killed a fellow
member that he thought was either an informant or was ripping him off
(this was mid 1980s so my memory is fuzzy) by beating him so badly
that his mother couldn't identify him.

David Cohen
November 28th 03, 04:43 AM
"thewhit" > wrote
> Bob Mann > wrote
> > (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > > "Randy Shrader" > wrote:
> > >> "Bob Mann" > wrote
> > >> > (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> > >> > >Do a google on Angels and Rock Machine.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Quite an epic.
> > >> >
> > >> > Oh yeah. My older son lives across the street, a couple of
doors down
> > >> > and a block away from three of the local Angels or retired
> Pre-Angels.
> > >> > He has no trouble with crime in his neighbourhood.
> > >>
> > >> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the
areas I've
> > >> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
> > >
> > >Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
> > >
> > >You live in the holiday park area?
> >
> > They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
> > They don't let anyone else do it either.

> neighborhoods that are mafia enclaves, in the states, are well known
for
> having VERY low crime rates (against ordinary citizens).
>
> nobody dares mug the little old lady, or do that kind of stuff in a
mafia
> neighborhood.
>
> because they will get severely beaten, if not killed.
>
> they don't fear the cops. they FEAR the mafia.
>
> very safe neighborhoods.

<typical life-long resident> "Sigh...Las Vegas was so much better when
the mob ran it."

David

Lucas Buck
November 28th 03, 09:04 AM
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:37:44 GMT, John Hanson > wrote:

>>>Did you know that the Hell's Outcasts kicked the Hell's Angels out of St. Paul
>>>back in the early 1970s. Maybe they retired to Winnipeg.
>>
>>These guys were all Los Brovos before. Had a major patch over a few
>>years back. My wife's cousin is a cop and was assigned to keep an eye
>>on them. Half of them are in jail awaiting trial for various offences
>>anyway.
>
>The Outcasts are pretty much gone now too.

Hence, the name.

John M. Williams
November 28th 03, 03:47 PM
"thewhit" > wrote:
>Bob Mann > wrote:
>> (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >"Randy Shrader" > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
>> >> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>> >
>> >Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>> >
>> >You live in the holiday park area?
>>
>> They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
>> They don't let anyone else do it either.
>
>neighborhoods that are mafia enclaves, in the states, are well known for
>having VERY low crime rates (against ordinary citizens).
>
>nobody dares mug the little old lady, or do that kind of stuff in a mafia
>neighborhood.
>
>because they will get severely beaten, if not killed.
>
>they don't fear the cops. they FEAR the mafia.
>
>very safe neighborhoods.

A couple of attorneys that I work with are from Youngstown. One of
them said that she was a little sad that the Mafia no longer has the
influence that they used to have. When they were running the show in
Youngstown, street crime was almost non-existent, and people weren't
afraid to walk the streets at night.

Pierre Honeyman
November 28th 03, 11:36 PM
John M. Williams > wrote in message >...

> A couple of attorneys that I work with are from Youngstown. One of
> them said that she was a little sad that the Mafia no longer has the
> influence that they used to have. When they were running the show in
> Youngstown, street crime was almost non-existent, and people weren't
> afraid to walk the streets at night.

But then again you have scenarios like this:

A guy got his ass beat down hard at a club, serious and permanent
damage kind of beating, by a hang around of the Hell's Angels. A
little while later he gets a visit from a guy in colours saying, to
the effect of, "So and so mistook you for someone else, sorry about
the ass kicking, but he's one of us so you aren't going to do anything
about it."

Pierer

Bob Mann
November 28th 03, 11:40 PM
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:47:18 -0500, John M. Williams
> wrote:

>"thewhit" > wrote:
>>Bob Mann > wrote:
>>> (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>> >"Randy Shrader" > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
>>> >> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
>>> >
>>> >Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
>>> >
>>> >You live in the holiday park area?
>>>
>>> They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
>>> They don't let anyone else do it either.
>>
>>neighborhoods that are mafia enclaves, in the states, are well known for
>>having VERY low crime rates (against ordinary citizens).
>>
>>nobody dares mug the little old lady, or do that kind of stuff in a mafia
>>neighborhood.
>>
>>because they will get severely beaten, if not killed.
>>
>>they don't fear the cops. they FEAR the mafia.
>>
>>very safe neighborhoods.
>
>A couple of attorneys that I work with are from Youngstown. One of
>them said that she was a little sad that the Mafia no longer has the
>influence that they used to have. When they were running the show in
>Youngstown, street crime was almost non-existent, and people weren't
>afraid to walk the streets at night.

Pretty ironic isn't it. Joe Average was better off but small
businessmen weren't. Neither really was Joe Average if he had kids.

I find it a little difficult because the mobs sell drugs (usually) and
that causes youth and others to have to steal things to pay for the
drugs.
--
Bob Mann

It's always darkest just before dawn.
So, if you're going to steal the neighbour's newspaper,
That's the time to do it.

Proton Soup
November 29th 03, 04:05 AM
Bob Mann > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:47:18 -0500, John M. Williams
> > wrote:
>
> >"thewhit" > wrote:
> >>Bob Mann > wrote:
> >>> (Keith Hobman) wrote:
> >>> >"Randy Shrader" > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I live about 6 blocks from the Angels clubhouse. Of all the areas I've
> >>> >> lived in, this seems to have the least vehicle break-ins.
> >>> >
> >>> >Which is okay if you don't have any daughters.
> >>> >
> >>> >You live in the holiday park area?
> >>>
> >>> They have a rule about not ****ting where they sleep.
> >>> They don't let anyone else do it either.
> >>
> >>neighborhoods that are mafia enclaves, in the states, are well known for
> >>having VERY low crime rates (against ordinary citizens).
> >>
> >>nobody dares mug the little old lady, or do that kind of stuff in a mafia
> >>neighborhood.
> >>
> >>because they will get severely beaten, if not killed.
> >>
> >>they don't fear the cops. they FEAR the mafia.
> >>
> >>very safe neighborhoods.
> >
> >A couple of attorneys that I work with are from Youngstown. One of
> >them said that she was a little sad that the Mafia no longer has the
> >influence that they used to have. When they were running the show in
> >Youngstown, street crime was almost non-existent, and people weren't
> >afraid to walk the streets at night.
>
> Pretty ironic isn't it. Joe Average was better off but small
> businessmen weren't. Neither really was Joe Average if he had kids.
>
> I find it a little difficult because the mobs sell drugs (usually) and
> that causes youth and others to have to steal things to pay for the
> drugs.

If we were to legalize drugs, the price would fall substantially and
you wouldn't have that problem.

Proton Soup

Charlie Moody
December 2nd 03, 03:49 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>
> It wasn't Winchester and Remington that won the West. It was Old
> Grandad and Jack Daniels.
>
And smallpox...and syphillis....

We learned *so* much from the British!

--
They put Jesus on a cross, put a hole in JFK,
They put Hitler in the driver's seat & looked the other way;
Now there's poison in the water, the whole world's in a trance -
But just because we're hypnotised, that don't mean we can't dance!

John Hanson
December 2nd 03, 07:31 PM
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:49:53 GMT, Charlie Moody
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:
>>
>> It wasn't Winchester and Remington that won the West. It was Old
>> Grandad and Jack Daniels.
>>
>And smallpox...and syphillis....
>
>We learned *so* much from the British!

Brigham Young must have trained under them:-)

Charlie Moody
December 3rd 03, 05:19 PM
In article >, John Hanson
> wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:49:53 GMT, Charlie Moody
> > wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article >, John Hanson
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> It wasn't Winchester and Remington that won the West. It was Old
> >> Grandad and Jack Daniels.
> >>
> >And smallpox...and syphillis....
> >
> >We learned *so* much from the British!
>
> Brigham Young must have trained under them:-)

U.S. Army / Bureau of Indian Affairs, actually;
Learned the trick from General Howe, I believe, during the French &
Indian Wars (pre-revolution).

--
They put Jesus on a cross, put a hole in JFK,
They put Hitler in the driver's seat & looked the other way;
Now there's poison in the water, the whole world's in a trance -
But just because we're hypnotised, that don't mean we can't dance!