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September 6th 06, 08:04 PM
Hi,

I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do
bench presses. I know, rest, until it heals.

People talk about glucosamine for joints. Is there any
clinical research? Could it speed recovery? Is there a
recommended daily dosage?


Mark

Kettlebell Inc
September 6th 06, 10:18 PM
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do
> bench presses. I know, rest, until it heals.
>
> People talk about glucosamine for joints. Is there any
> clinical research? Could it speed recovery? Is there a
> recommended daily dosage?
>
>
> Mark

Hi Mark,

I've had some sort of tendonitits/bursitis/impingement going on with my
shoulder for several years. I've had some luck with Glucosamine and
Chondroitin Sulfate (basically beef gelatin) with the joint. I'll
still overdue it sometimes and have flare ups, but it is more
manageable now. And I've gone from having only about 50% strength in
the shoulder to about 90% since taking the supplements. Also, to pass
along, my Dad has some arthritis in his hands and he has had similar
results with the same supplement. Mostly taking away the pain and
stiffness in his hands.

I'm not a doc and I don't have clinical research, just some personal
experience.

John
http://www.kettlebellinc.com

JMW
September 6th 06, 11:32 PM
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do
>bench presses. I know, rest, until it heals.
>
>People talk about glucosamine for joints. Is there any
>clinical research?

Yes.

>Could it speed recovery?

Yes.

>Is there a
>recommended daily dosage?

1500mg

Stephen N.
September 7th 06, 05:35 PM
JMW wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do
>>bench presses. I know, rest, until it heals.
>>
>>People talk about glucosamine for joints. Is there any
>>clinical research?
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>>Could it speed recovery?
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>>Is there a
>>recommended daily dosage?
>
>
> 1500mg

There is a considerable amount of rhetoric recently that sheds doubt on
the effectiveness of glucosamine for reducing pain or inflammation or
speeding recovery of sore or damaged joints. Some other studies did
seem to suggest that the sulphated compounds might be more effective
than non-sulphated if at all.

The jury is still out on that one for me. I did try it twice a couple
months for pain and stiffness in my hands and elbow and I did not think
it was helping but isolated incidences do not make a study.

Like most of us, I can deal with the pain as long as I think that I am
not causing further damage by ignoring it. The pain, it seems just
comes with age but I hurt less if I work out regularly. In other words,
I gave up on the Glucosamine but certainly not the exercise.

Stephen N.---> but I got some really great snake oil if you're interested...

DZ
September 7th 06, 07:17 PM
Stephen N. > wrote:
> JMW wrote:
>> wrote:
>>>I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do bench
>>>presses. I know, rest, until it heals. People talk about
>>>glucosamine for joints. Is there any clinical research?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> There is a considerable amount of rhetoric recently that sheds doubt
> on the effectiveness of glucosamine for reducing pain or
> inflammation or speeding recovery of sore or damaged joints.

Do you refer to this study?
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2006/nccam-22.htm

> Some other studies did seem to suggest that the sulphated compounds
> might be more effective than non-sulphated if at all.

The first rule of epidemiology: You must account and control for
everything possible. Thereafter, all bets are off.

(The corollary says that thou shalt repeatedly walk and observe the
duck in an experimentally controlled fashion.)

Stephen N.
September 7th 06, 08:33 PM
DZ wrote:
> Stephen N. > wrote:
>
>>JMW wrote:
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do bench
>>>>presses. I know, rest, until it heals. People talk about
>>>>glucosamine for joints. Is there any clinical research?
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>
>>There is a considerable amount of rhetoric recently that sheds doubt
>>on the effectiveness of glucosamine for reducing pain or
>>inflammation or speeding recovery of sore or damaged joints.
>
>
> Do you refer to this study?
> http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2006/nccam-22.htm

What I find interesting in that paper is not that 79% of participants
with severe pain found relief with glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate
but that 54% found relief with a placebo. Jedi mind tricks work!

I would have fallen into the catagory of mild to moderate pain where
participants found no difference between glucosamine, with or without
chondroitin sulfate and placebo. I did find relief when I went to CC
Texas last June. It could have been the HIGH temperatures and humidity
or it could have been coincidence. Arthritic pain in the fingers tends
to increase for periods of time while the fingers gnarl themselves and
subside after they feel they have warped sufficiently for a while.

> (The corollary says that thou shalt repeatedly walk and observe the
> duck in an experimentally controlled fashion.)

While I didn't try duck oil, I did give various fish oils a try and they
didn't seem to do anything for the pain and stiffness in my hands either.



Stephen N.--->but they gave me a nice shiny coat...

JMW
September 7th 06, 10:03 PM
Stephen N. wrote:
> DZ wrote:
> > Stephen N. > wrote:
> >
> >>JMW wrote:
> >>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I've been having some soreness in one shoulder, can't do bench
> >>>>presses. I know, rest, until it heals. People talk about
> >>>>glucosamine for joints. Is there any clinical research?
> >>>
> >>>Yes.
> >>
> >>There is a considerable amount of rhetoric recently that sheds doubt
> >>on the effectiveness of glucosamine for reducing pain or
> >>inflammation or speeding recovery of sore or damaged joints.
> >
> >
> > Do you refer to this study?
> > http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2006/nccam-22.htm
>
> What I find interesting in that paper is not that 79% of participants
> with severe pain found relief with glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate
> but that 54% found relief with a placebo. Jedi mind tricks work!
>
> I would have fallen into the catagory of mild to moderate pain where
> participants found no difference between glucosamine, with or without
> chondroitin sulfate and placebo. I did find relief when I went to CC
> Texas last June. It could have been the HIGH temperatures and humidity
> or it could have been coincidence. Arthritic pain in the fingers tends
> to increase for periods of time while the fingers gnarl themselves and
> subside after they feel they have warped sufficiently for a while.
>
> > (The corollary says that thou shalt repeatedly walk and observe the
> > duck in an experimentally controlled fashion.)
>
> While I didn't try duck oil, I did give various fish oils a try and they
> didn't seem to do anything for the pain and stiffness in my hands either.

<sigh> It seems that this debate comes up every time I mention the
subject, and everybody misses the "big picture." Yes, the studies are
inconsistent about *relief from pain*. What everyone misses is the
fact that I don't promote glucosamine on that basis. For pain, a
decent NSAID is probably as good or better. The real point, which is
pretty well established, is that glucosaminoglycans are *substrates*
for connective tissues. If the ready availability of substrate
improves tissue repair, that's good enough for me. Will gradual repair
of the tissue reduce pain? Maybe; maybe not. But symptomatic relief
is not my point.

Stephen N.
September 8th 06, 02:58 AM
JMW wrote:
> Stephen N. wrote:
>
>>DZ wrote:
>>
>>>Stephen N. > wrote:
>>>Do you refer to this study?
>>>http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2006/nccam-22.htm
>>
>>What I find interesting in that paper is not that 79% of participants
>>with severe pain found relief with glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate
>>but that 54% found relief with a placebo. Jedi mind tricks work!
>>
>>I would have fallen into the catagory of mild to moderate pain where
>>participants found no difference between glucosamine, with or without
>>chondroitin sulfate and placebo. I did find relief when I went to CC
>>Texas last June. It could have been the HIGH temperatures and humidity
>>or it could have been coincidence. Arthritic pain in the fingers tends
>>to increase for periods of time while the fingers gnarl themselves and
>>subside after they feel they have warped sufficiently for a while.
>>
>> > (The corollary says that thou shalt repeatedly walk and observe the
>> > duck in an experimentally controlled fashion.)
>>
>>While I didn't try duck oil, I did give various fish oils a try and they
>>didn't seem to do anything for the pain and stiffness in my hands either.
>
>
> <sigh> It seems that this debate comes up every time I mention the
> subject, and everybody misses the "big picture." Yes, the studies are
> inconsistent about *relief from pain*. What everyone misses is the
> fact that I don't promote glucosamine on that basis. For pain, a
> decent NSAID is probably as good or better. The real point, which is
> pretty well established, is that glucosaminoglycans are *substrates*
> for connective tissues. If the ready availability of substrate
> improves tissue repair, that's good enough for me. Will gradual repair
> of the tissue reduce pain? Maybe; maybe not. But symptomatic relief
> is not my point.

I didn't miss that point. I was referring to the studies which seem to
be trying to quantify the effectiveness of glucosamine etc. in reducing
pain. The study DZ pointed to seems to be measuring the effectiveness
of GS as an analgesic. Perhaps pain was just the tape being used to
measure the healing of connective tissues which would theoretically
bring relief from pain. In any case, for the layman it is the most
apparent and perhaps the only way to guage it's effectiveness, if it is
indeed effective.

They did refer to a further study which "continues their research with a
smaller study to see whether glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate can
alter the progression of osteoarthritis, such as delaying the narrowing
of the joint spaces. About one-half of the (1600) participants in the
larger GAIT study were eligible to enroll in this ancillary study. The
results are expected in about a year." (Spring 2007).

The results of that would be of interest to me.

Stephen N.

Stephen N.
September 8th 06, 03:04 AM
DZ wrote:
> We're just straying away, that's all - Stephen wants to talk about
> pain, and I want to talk about ducks

Right, ducks and pain. "Something realllly wrong is going on here..."

that look like ones, and other
> such stuff, like biting the hand that feeds me -
> http://home.nc.rr.com/netsink/FactorFlip1.pdf
>
> Needless to say, there are good, big, and controlled studies on
> glucosamine, including the older one in Lancet.

If I didn't mention from the beginning that my opinion was extremely
unqualified, allow me to introduce that now.

Somehow this turned out looking like I really give more of a crap about
this than I do.

Stephen N.---> and I don't. It's just ducks and pain...

OmManiPadmeOmelet
September 8th 06, 03:06 AM
In article m>,
"JMW" > wrote:

> <sigh> It seems that this debate comes up every time I mention the
> subject, and everybody misses the "big picture." Yes, the studies are
> inconsistent about *relief from pain*. What everyone misses is the
> fact that I don't promote glucosamine on that basis. For pain, a
> decent NSAID is probably as good or better. The real point, which is
> pretty well established, is that glucosaminoglycans are *substrates*
> for connective tissues. If the ready availability of substrate
> improves tissue repair, that's good enough for me. Will gradual repair
> of the tissue reduce pain? Maybe; maybe not. But symptomatic relief
> is not my point.

It makes sense tho' that if repair work takes place, pain should be
reduced over time no?

I know it sure helped my dog, and surprisingly quickly. But, I was
giving her 2,000 mg. per day and she weighed about 50 lbs. She had
developed bad hip joints due to age and needed help getting out of her
bed to go potty. :-( She'd yelp if you touched or manipulated her hips.

We did get pain killers for her from the vet but did not have to use
them for very long. Within a month or so of starting GS therapy, she was
chasing her doggy ball around the yard again. :-) That was enough proof
for me..... We kept her on it periodically for the rest of her life
(about 4 years) and she never did go back "down".

I also used it for myself for a few months to help repair a damaged
rotator cuff in my left shoulder. The pain was such I had less than 1/2
range of motion. It took awhile but full ROM has been restored. Took
about 6 months.

I never did splurge for the Chondroitin/Glucosamine/MSM combos, I just
took pure GS. The price has come WAY down since the combos got so
popular. I was (and still am) able to pick up a bottle of 250 capsules
of 1,000 mg. from Wal-mart for around $16.00. At supplement prices,
that's pretty cheap. ;-)

Look at it this way, can't hurt, might help.

But just remember, supplemental therapy takes time! Don't expect
overnight results.

YMMV but it worked for me (and my dog!).
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

JMW
September 8th 06, 06:47 AM
OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:
> "JMW" > wrote:
>
>> <sigh> It seems that this debate comes up every time I mention the
>> subject, and everybody misses the "big picture." Yes, the studies are
>> inconsistent about *relief from pain*. What everyone misses is the
>> fact that I don't promote glucosamine on that basis. For pain, a
>> decent NSAID is probably as good or better. The real point, which is
>> pretty well established, is that glucosaminoglycans are *substrates*
>> for connective tissues. If the ready availability of substrate
>> improves tissue repair, that's good enough for me. Will gradual repair
>> of the tissue reduce pain? Maybe; maybe not. But symptomatic relief
>> is not my point.
>
>It makes sense tho' that if repair work takes place, pain should be
>reduced over time no?
>
>I know it sure helped my dog, and surprisingly quickly. But, I was
>giving her 2,000 mg. per day and she weighed about 50 lbs. She had
>developed bad hip joints due to age and needed help getting out of her
>bed to go potty. :-( She'd yelp if you touched or manipulated her hips.
>
>We did get pain killers for her from the vet but did not have to use
>them for very long. Within a month or so of starting GS therapy, she was
>chasing her doggy ball around the yard again. :-) That was enough proof
>for me..... We kept her on it periodically for the rest of her life
>(about 4 years) and she never did go back "down".
>
>I also used it for myself for a few months to help repair a damaged
>rotator cuff in my left shoulder. The pain was such I had less than 1/2
>range of motion. It took awhile but full ROM has been restored. Took
>about 6 months.
>
>I never did splurge for the Chondroitin/Glucosamine/MSM combos, I just
>took pure GS. The price has come WAY down since the combos got so
>popular. I was (and still am) able to pick up a bottle of 250 capsules
>of 1,000 mg. from Wal-mart for around $16.00. At supplement prices,
>that's pretty cheap. ;-)

The Member's Mark stuff at Sam's Club is even cheaper. I use their
enteric-coated fish oil, too.

>Look at it this way, can't hurt, might help.
>
>But just remember, supplemental therapy takes time! Don't expect
>overnight results.

Too many people expect the same kind of immediate effect from
ergogenic drugs/supplements that they do from psychoactive drugs.
That's why supplement manufacturers often throw in some kind of
stimulant ... so the dimwits know that "it's working."

OmManiPadmeOmelet
September 8th 06, 04:03 PM
In article >,
JMW > wrote:

> >I never did splurge for the Chondroitin/Glucosamine/MSM combos, I just
> >took pure GS. The price has come WAY down since the combos got so
> >popular. I was (and still am) able to pick up a bottle of 250 capsules
> >of 1,000 mg. from Wal-mart for around $16.00. At supplement prices,
> >that's pretty cheap. ;-)
>
> The Member's Mark stuff at Sam's Club is even cheaper. I use their
> enteric-coated fish oil, too.

I might have to look for that...
Fish Oil is nasty stuff. :-(
I followed a suggestion I read in a BB rag and keep it in
the freezer, but it only helps a little.

>
> >Look at it this way, can't hurt, might help.
> >
> >But just remember, supplemental therapy takes time! Don't expect
> >overnight results.
>
> Too many people expect the same kind of immediate effect from
> ergogenic drugs/supplements that they do from psychoactive drugs.
> That's why supplement manufacturers often throw in some kind of
> stimulant ... so the dimwits know that "it's working."

Heh! I understand......

The nice thing about nutritional therapy tho' is that it's not just a
symptomatic treatment. It generally goes after the cause, so the effects
are more lasting and there are generally no nasty side effects.
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson