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funkdys
September 18th 06, 05:31 PM
Hello all:

I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious to
change that.

I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.

What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?

As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

Steve Freides
September 18th 06, 05:45 PM
"funkdys" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello all:
>
> I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
> My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
> While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
> visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
> advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious
> to
> change that.
>
> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
> earlier
> guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
> squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
> is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more
> in
> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising
> my
> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.

I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way of
anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female, that I
cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're not
lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ - assuming
you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your bodyweight
pretty easily.

> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?

There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like some
in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in your
position, I would recommend a few things:

http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel, excellent
guide to deadlifting and to strength training.

http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good stuff
about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.

http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource

> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people, the
key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a week.
You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see results
in muscle gains.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

James Ahrens
September 18th 06, 05:57 PM
Yes, your weight for those exercises could be a bit on the low side,
and some tuition could help.
Its worth being very accurate with dead lifts, and ensuring you have
correct back posture and good core stability, its not worth getting
injured.

You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add more
exercises in the mix?
Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls etc.
during your lower body sessions.

In terms of strength building 6-8 reps is in the ballpark, but I would
do 4 sets of each exercise for best effect. 2 seems a bit low.
Some people do a low number of sets, like a warm up set, and then blast
2 sets with high intensity and sometimes to failure.
At your level it might be worth trying more sets, as you'll find the
real challenge and workout effect at set 3 and 4.

funkdys wrote:
> Hello all:
>
> I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
> My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
> While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
> visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
> advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious to
> change that.
>
> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
> squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
> is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

Pete
September 19th 06, 10:50 AM
"funkdys" > schreef:

> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> guidance on this forum.

Oh!
So THATS where you went wrong!

> 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> twice a week.

Not enough volume.
And **** the deadlifts when it comes to leg development.

Try squats with leg curls one workout, leg-presses and extensions the other.
4-6 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 sets is not enough.

> I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> a deadlift than they can squat.

So what?
Let them. It wont speed up your leg development.

> However, I find myself compromising my
> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.

Man, you want bigger legs? Forget the deadlift!

> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?

Read my lips;

FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!

> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

You are wellcome.

----
Pete

James Ahrens
September 19th 06, 12:03 PM
Nice work Pete,
wish I could've put it that simply.

Pete wrote:
> "funkdys" > schreef:
>
> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> > guidance on this forum.
>
> Oh!
> So THATS where you went wrong!
>
> > 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> > twice a week.
>
> Not enough volume.
> And **** the deadlifts when it comes to leg development.
>
> Try squats with leg curls one workout, leg-presses and extensions the other.
> 4-6 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 sets is not enough.
>
> > I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> > a deadlift than they can squat.
>
> So what?
> Let them. It wont speed up your leg development.
>
> > However, I find myself compromising my
> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> Man, you want bigger legs? Forget the deadlift!
>
> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> Read my lips;
>
> FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!
>
> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>
> You are wellcome.
>
> ----
> Pete

funkdys
September 19th 06, 02:08 PM
OK - I think I got it... no more deadlifts, increase volume and add
curls, presses and extensions to the routine in addition to squats and
calf raises.

Could you educate me on when one should incorporate deadlifts into the
routine and what the primary benefits might be? My limited
understanding was that DLs were good for overall development of the
legs... I'm assuming that's not the case.

Thank you for your informed recommendation. Much appreciated.


Pete wrote:
> "funkdys" > schreef:
>
> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> > guidance on this forum.
>
> Oh!
> So THATS where you went wrong!
>
> > 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> > twice a week.
>
> Not enough volume.
> And **** the deadlifts when it comes to leg development.
>
> Try squats with leg curls one workout, leg-presses and extensions the other.
> 4-6 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 sets is not enough.
>
> > I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> > a deadlift than they can squat.
>
> So what?
> Let them. It wont speed up your leg development.
>
> > However, I find myself compromising my
> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> Man, you want bigger legs? Forget the deadlift!
>
> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> Read my lips;
>
> FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!
>
> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>
> You are wellcome.
>
> ----
> Pete

funkdys
September 19th 06, 02:12 PM
Thank you for the pointers to useful resources, Steve. Any chance you
could share with me what you tell the people you train that enables
them to lift more in Squats and DLs so easily? I'm hopeful that if it
only takes them a couple of minutes to get it, it should be very hard
to describe in text.

I'll certainly get P2TP book you recommend below, but it may take a
little while to get it and then some more time to wade through 387
pages of information! I'm a little anxious to do the course correction
in my routine.

Muchas gracias.

Steve Freides wrote:
> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hello all:
> >
> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious
> > to
> > change that.
> >
> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
> > earlier
> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more
> > in
> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising
> > my
> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way of
> anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female, that I
> cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
> minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
> yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're not
> lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ - assuming
> you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your bodyweight
> pretty easily.
>
> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like some
> in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in your
> position, I would recommend a few things:
>
> http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel, excellent
> guide to deadlifting and to strength training.
>
> http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good stuff
> about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.
>
> http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource
>
> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>
> Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people, the
> key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a week.
> You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see results
> in muscle gains.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides
September 19th 06, 02:31 PM
"funkdys" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thank you for the pointers to useful resources, Steve. Any chance you
> could share with me what you tell the people you train that enables
> them to lift more in Squats and DLs so easily? I'm hopeful that if it
> only takes them a couple of minutes to get it, it should be very hard
> to describe in text.

There is technique to everything and lifting is no exception. For
deadlifting, just telling someone to breath into their belly and stay
tight often seems to make a world of difference to the weight they can
lift. There are other points of technique, like trying to keep the
shins vertical, that help, too. PTP goes into a good amount of detail
about deadlifting. I pulled 364 lbs. (165 kg) as a 148 lb. (67.5 kg)
lifter at the AAU meet last December, and without using any supportive
equipment. Strength can be improved in many ways; my choice is to
improve my skill without trying to add muscle. Gaining strength through
technique is PTP's focus, although there is a small section on how to
use the deadlift to gain size if that's your wish.

> I'll certainly get P2TP book you recommend below, but it may take a
> little while to get it and then some more time to wade through 387
> pages of information! I'm a little anxious to do the course
> correction
> in my routine.

PTP is a relatively short book focused on strength. Beyond Bodybuilding
is the longer book that focuses on gaining both size and strength. I'd
read them in that order. Also Google "20 rep squats" if you want some
more information.

Best not to top post in the future.

Good luck to you.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Muchas gracias.
>
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> "funkdys" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Hello all:
>> >
>> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks
>> > now.
>> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
>> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that
>> > objective.
>> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth,
>> > a
>> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any
>> > visible
>> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am
>> > anxious
>> > to
>> > change that.
>> >
>> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
>> > earlier
>> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
>> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
>> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm
>> > now
>> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf
>> > raise
>> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift
>> > more
>> > in
>> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself
>> > compromising
>> > my
>> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>>
>> I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way of
>> anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female, that
>> I
>> cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
>> minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
>> yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're not
>> lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ - assuming
>> you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your
>> bodyweight
>> pretty easily.
>>
>> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
>> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are
>> > there
>> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>>
>> There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like some
>> in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in your
>> position, I would recommend a few things:
>>
>> http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel,
>> excellent
>> guide to deadlifting and to strength training.
>>
>> http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good stuff
>> about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.
>>
>> http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource
>>
>> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>>
>> Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people,
>> the
>> key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a
>> week.
>> You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see
>> results
>> in muscle gains.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>

Will Brink
September 19th 06, 02:42 PM
In article om>,
"funkdys" > wrote:

> Hello all:
>
> I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.

12 whole weeks?!

funkdys
September 19th 06, 03:26 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Thank you for the pointers to useful resources, Steve. Any chance you
> > could share with me what you tell the people you train that enables
> > them to lift more in Squats and DLs so easily? I'm hopeful that if it
> > only takes them a couple of minutes to get it, it should be very hard
> > to describe in text.
>
> There is technique to everything and lifting is no exception. For
> deadlifting, just telling someone to breath into their belly and stay
> tight often seems to make a world of difference to the weight they can
> lift. There are other points of technique, like trying to keep the
> shins vertical, that help, too. PTP goes into a good amount of detail
> about deadlifting. I pulled 364 lbs. (165 kg) as a 148 lb. (67.5 kg)
> lifter at the AAU meet last December, and without using any supportive
> equipment. Strength can be improved in many ways; my choice is to
> improve my skill without trying to add muscle. Gaining strength through
> technique is PTP's focus, although there is a small section on how to
> use the deadlift to gain size if that's your wish.
>

Holy smoke!! You weigh about what I do... but 364lbs! I should just
take your word as gospel!! Thanks again.

> > I'll certainly get P2TP book you recommend below, but it may take a
> > little while to get it and then some more time to wade through 387
> > pages of information! I'm a little anxious to do the course
> > correction
> > in my routine.
>
> PTP is a relatively short book focused on strength. Beyond Bodybuilding
> is the longer book that focuses on gaining both size and strength. I'd
> read them in that order. Also Google "20 rep squats" if you want some
> more information.
>
Will do.

> Best not to top post in the future.

Sorry. Didn't realize that was against netiquette. Not sure I
understand reasons why, but I'll bear it in mind going forward.

>
> Good luck to you.
>
Many thanks, Steve. Appreciate your making the time for this.

> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
> > Muchas gracias.
> >
> > Steve Freides wrote:
> >> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> > Hello all:
> >> >
> >> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks
> >> > now.
> >> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> >> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that
> >> > objective.
> >> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth,
> >> > a
> >> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any
> >> > visible
> >> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am
> >> > anxious
> >> > to
> >> > change that.
> >> >
> >> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
> >> > earlier
> >> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> >> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> >> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm
> >> > now
> >> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf
> >> > raise
> >> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift
> >> > more
> >> > in
> >> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself
> >> > compromising
> >> > my
> >> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
> >>
> >> I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way of
> >> anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female, that
> >> I
> >> cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
> >> minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
> >> yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're not
> >> lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ - assuming
> >> you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your
> >> bodyweight
> >> pretty easily.
> >>
> >> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> >> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are
> >> > there
> >> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
> >>
> >> There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like some
> >> in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in your
> >> position, I would recommend a few things:
> >>
> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel,
> >> excellent
> >> guide to deadlifting and to strength training.
> >>
> >> http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good stuff
> >> about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.
> >>
> >> http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource
> >>
> >> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
> >>
> >> Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people,
> >> the
> >> key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a
> >> week.
> >> You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see
> >> results
> >> in muscle gains.
> >>
> >> Just my opinion.
> >>
> >> -S-
> >> http://www.kbnj.com
> >

funkdys
September 19th 06, 03:31 PM
Will Brink wrote:
> In article om>,
> "funkdys" > wrote:
>
> > Hello all:
> >
> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
>
> 12 whole weeks?!

Should I wait for a year, see no gains and then try to course correct?


I did mention in my post that I wasn't sure what timeframe one should
reasonably expect to see some gains in. I wanted to inquire now before
continuing to spend more time and not make progress, lest I might be
off track. I also suggested that I was observing perceptible gains
elsewhere but not in my legs.

Thanks to comments from several regulars, I now have a modified routine
to try and some additional resources to refer to.

If you've something constructive to offer, I'm all ears.

Regards.

Steve Freides
September 19th 06, 03:43 PM
"funkdys" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> "funkdys" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Thank you for the pointers to useful resources, Steve. Any chance
>> > you
>> > could share with me what you tell the people you train that enables
>> > them to lift more in Squats and DLs so easily? I'm hopeful that if
>> > it
>> > only takes them a couple of minutes to get it, it should be very
>> > hard
>> > to describe in text.
>>
>> There is technique to everything and lifting is no exception. For
>> deadlifting, just telling someone to breath into their belly and stay
>> tight often seems to make a world of difference to the weight they
>> can
>> lift. There are other points of technique, like trying to keep the
>> shins vertical, that help, too. PTP goes into a good amount of
>> detail
>> about deadlifting. I pulled 364 lbs. (165 kg) as a 148 lb. (67.5 kg)
>> lifter at the AAU meet last December, and without using any
>> supportive
>> equipment. Strength can be improved in many ways; my choice is to
>> improve my skill without trying to add muscle. Gaining strength
>> through
>> technique is PTP's focus, although there is a small section on how to
>> use the deadlift to gain size if that's your wish.
>>
>
> Holy smoke!! You weigh about what I do... but 364lbs! I should just
> take your word as gospel!! Thanks again.

Thanks but you need to figure out things for yourself. We're all
different, and your goals are not my goals. Your methods should not be
my methods.

>> > I'll certainly get P2TP book you recommend below, but it may take a
>> > little while to get it and then some more time to wade through 387
>> > pages of information! I'm a little anxious to do the course
>> > correction
>> > in my routine.
>>
>> PTP is a relatively short book focused on strength. Beyond
>> Bodybuilding
>> is the longer book that focuses on gaining both size and strength.
>> I'd
>> read them in that order. Also Google "20 rep squats" if you want
>> some
>> more information.
>>
> Will do.
>
>> Best not to top post in the future.
>
> Sorry. Didn't realize that was against netiquette. Not sure I
> understand reasons why, but I'll bear it in mind going forward.

A: Because it makes it difficult for people to follow the conversation.

Q: Why shouldn't I top post?

I think that explains it pretty well. :)

>>
>> Good luck to you.
>>
> Many thanks, Steve. Appreciate your making the time for this.

No problem. Best of luck, and please report back in a while to let us
know how it's going.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>>
>>
>> > Muchas gracias.
>> >
>> > Steve Freides wrote:
>> >> "funkdys" > wrote in message
>> >> ups.com...
>> >> > Hello all:
>> >> >
>> >> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12
>> >> > weeks
>> >> > now.
>> >> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall.
>> >> > I've
>> >> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that
>> >> > objective.
>> >> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in
>> >> > strenth,
>> >> > a
>> >> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any
>> >> > visible
>> >> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am
>> >> > anxious
>> >> > to
>> >> > change that.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
>> >> > earlier
>> >> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out
>> >> > legs
>> >> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
>> >> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm
>> >> > now
>> >> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf
>> >> > raise
>> >> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift
>> >> > more
>> >> > in
>> >> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself
>> >> > compromising
>> >> > my
>> >> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way
>> >> of
>> >> anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female,
>> >> that
>> >> I
>> >> cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
>> >> minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
>> >> yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're
>> >> not
>> >> lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ -
>> >> assuming
>> >> you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your
>> >> bodyweight
>> >> pretty easily.
>> >>
>> >> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in
>> >> > legs
>> >> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are
>> >> > there
>> >> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing
>> >> > weight?
>> >>
>> >> There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like
>> >> some
>> >> in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in
>> >> your
>> >> position, I would recommend a few things:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel,
>> >> excellent
>> >> guide to deadlifting and to strength training.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good
>> >> stuff
>> >> about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource
>> >>
>> >> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people,
>> >> the
>> >> key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a
>> >> week.
>> >> You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see
>> >> results
>> >> in muscle gains.
>> >>
>> >> Just my opinion.
>> >>
>> >> -S-
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >
>

David Cohen
September 19th 06, 04:34 PM
"funkdys" > wrote
> If you've something constructive to offer, I'm all ears.

Ohhhh...."constructive" advice! That's different.

If I offered some condescending, ridiculing, advice, would you be
all...what? All elbows?

David

Larry Hodges
September 19th 06, 05:43 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "funkdys" > schreef:
>
>> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
>> guidance on this forum.
>
> Oh!
> So THATS where you went wrong!
>
>> 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
>> twice a week.
>
> Not enough volume.
> And **** the deadlifts when it comes to leg development.
>
> Try squats with leg curls one workout, leg-presses and extensions the
> other.
> 4-6 sets of 6-8 reps. 2 sets is not enough.
>
>> I recall reading that most people can lift more in
>> a deadlift than they can squat.
>
> So what?
> Let them. It wont speed up your leg development.
>
>> However, I find myself compromising my
>> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> Man, you want bigger legs? Forget the deadlift!
>
>> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
>> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
>> tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> Read my lips;
>
> FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!
>
>> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>
> You are wellcome.
>
> ----
> Pete

WTF are you talking about Pete? Forget DLs??

1. Why would that hamper his progress?

2. Name something better for gluts?

3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the entire
body, and is a core lift for legs.

3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you are
going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going too heavy.

Dude, I thought you knew your stuff. Obviously you're a noob. Your advice
sucks major ass here...you really ****ed up on this one. I'm even thinking
about killfiling you so I don't have to read this ****ty advice. But then,
I wouldn't be able to see it to correct it, so maybe not.

-Larry

funkdys
September 19th 06, 05:51 PM
Steve Freides wrote:
> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Steve Freides wrote:
> >> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> >> ups.com...
> >> > Thank you for the pointers to useful resources, Steve. Any chance
> >> > you
> >> > could share with me what you tell the people you train that enables
> >> > them to lift more in Squats and DLs so easily? I'm hopeful that if
> >> > it
> >> > only takes them a couple of minutes to get it, it should be very
> >> > hard
> >> > to describe in text.
> >>
> >> There is technique to everything and lifting is no exception. For
> >> deadlifting, just telling someone to breath into their belly and stay
> >> tight often seems to make a world of difference to the weight they
> >> can
> >> lift. There are other points of technique, like trying to keep the
> >> shins vertical, that help, too. PTP goes into a good amount of
> >> detail
> >> about deadlifting. I pulled 364 lbs. (165 kg) as a 148 lb. (67.5 kg)
> >> lifter at the AAU meet last December, and without using any
> >> supportive
> >> equipment. Strength can be improved in many ways; my choice is to
> >> improve my skill without trying to add muscle. Gaining strength
> >> through
> >> technique is PTP's focus, although there is a small section on how to
> >> use the deadlift to gain size if that's your wish.
> >>
> >
> > Holy smoke!! You weigh about what I do... but 364lbs! I should just
> > take your word as gospel!! Thanks again.
>
> Thanks but you need to figure out things for yourself. We're all
> different, and your goals are not my goals. Your methods should not be
> my methods.
>
> >> > I'll certainly get P2TP book you recommend below, but it may take a
> >> > little while to get it and then some more time to wade through 387
> >> > pages of information! I'm a little anxious to do the course
> >> > correction
> >> > in my routine.
> >>
> >> PTP is a relatively short book focused on strength. Beyond
> >> Bodybuilding
> >> is the longer book that focuses on gaining both size and strength.
> >> I'd
> >> read them in that order. Also Google "20 rep squats" if you want
> >> some
> >> more information.
> >>
> > Will do.
> >
> >> Best not to top post in the future.
> >
> > Sorry. Didn't realize that was against netiquette. Not sure I
> > understand reasons why, but I'll bear it in mind going forward.
>
> A: Because it makes it difficult for people to follow the conversation.
>
> Q: Why shouldn't I top post?
>
> I think that explains it pretty well. :)
>
LOL. Point well made. Thanks.

> >>
> >> Good luck to you.
> >>
> > Many thanks, Steve. Appreciate your making the time for this.
>
> No problem. Best of luck, and please report back in a while to let us
> know how it's going.
>
Thank you again. Will do.

> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Muchas gracias.
> >> >
> >> > Steve Freides wrote:
> >> >> "funkdys" > wrote in message
> >> >> ups.com...
> >> >> > Hello all:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12
> >> >> > weeks
> >> >> > now.
> >> >> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall.
> >> >> > I've
> >> >> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that
> >> >> > objective.
> >> >> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in
> >> >> > strenth,
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any
> >> >> > visible
> >> >> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am
> >> >> > anxious
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > change that.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
> >> >> > earlier
> >> >> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out
> >> >> > legs
> >> >> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> >> >> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm
> >> >> > now
> >> >> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf
> >> >> > raise
> >> >> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift
> >> >> > more
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself
> >> >> > compromising
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't think a bodyweight SQ or DL will get you much in the way
> >> >> of
> >> >> anything. I have yet to meet the healthy adult, male or female,
> >> >> that
> >> >> I
> >> >> cannot teach to DL more than their bodyweight within the first few
> >> >> minutes. I realize you're being careful but you may want to find
> >> >> yourself a competent teacher in your area and find out why you're
> >> >> not
> >> >> lifting more weight. And the same thing goes for the SQ -
> >> >> assuming
> >> >> you're male and healthy, you ought to be able to squat your
> >> >> bodyweight
> >> >> pretty easily.
> >> >>
> >> >> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in
> >> >> > legs
> >> >> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are
> >> >> > there
> >> >> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing
> >> >> > weight?
> >> >>
> >> >> There are plenty of good resources out there but it sounds like
> >> >> some
> >> >> in-person instruction might benefit you the most. That said, in
> >> >> your
> >> >> position, I would recommend a few things:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - Power To The People! by Pavel,
> >> >> excellent
> >> >> guide to deadlifting and to strength training.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com/bb.htm - Beyond Bodybuilding by Pavel, good
> >> >> stuff
> >> >> about getting bigger while being as strong as you look.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.startingstrength.com - another good lifting resource
> >> >>
> >> >> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Training volume plus sufficient rest is, according to most people,
> >> >> the
> >> >> key to adding muscle - lift a lot with heavy weights a few times a
> >> >> week.
> >> >> You'll need to up your volume and up your weight before you see
> >> >> results
> >> >> in muscle gains.
> >> >>
> >> >> Just my opinion.
> >> >>
> >> >> -S-
> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com
> >> >
> >

Pete
September 19th 06, 06:02 PM
"Larry Hodges" > schreef:

>> FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!

>>> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

>> You are wellcome.

> WTF are you talking about Pete? Forget DLs??

Sure.

> 1. Why would that hamper his progress?

Larry, what exactly does a deadlift do?
It gives knee and hip joint extension, while you hold the barbell in your
hands.
Squats and leg-presses also give that. The fact that you hold the bar in
your hands is not an advantage, its a limiting factor. You create weak
links.

> 2. Name something better for gluts?

Squats, powerlift style, or leg presses, feet as high as possible on the
sledge.

> 3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the entire
> body, and is a core lift for legs.

Yes, but the problem is, they work TOO much simultanuously. And if your
lower arms are relatively weak, the grip fails before the quads and glutes
get a nice workout. Or the lower back fails. With squats, that problem is
reduced, and with leg-presses, its even MORE reduced.

> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you are
> going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going too
> heavy.

And use a limited ROM. Move for about 60 degrees. NEVER more then 90.

> Dude, I thought you knew your stuff.

Dont worry. I do.

> Obviously you're a noob.

Eh... no.

>Your advice sucks major ass here...

Well, if thats your opinion.

> you really ****ed up on this one.

Really?
Do you really think the Pro BBers got huge because they deadlift?

Think Larry, THINK !!!
Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*

> I'm even thinking about killfiling you so I don't have to read this
> ****ty advice. But then, I wouldn't be able to see it to correct it, so
> maybe not.

Thats the reason i didnt kill-file Freides. Cool.

----
Pete

Pete
September 19th 06, 06:09 PM
"James Ahrens" > schreef:

> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add more
> exercises in the mix?
> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls etc.
> during your lower body sessions.

Uh-OH !!!

Now you have done it !!!

You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for Christ
Sake !!!
Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or extensions
?!?!?!?

Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!

----
Pete

Pete
September 19th 06, 06:28 PM
"James Ahrens" > schreef:

> Nice work Pete,
> wish I could've put it that simply.

Well, thanks!

But its not gonna make much of a difference, though.
Deadlifts are consireded almost a religious experience here... ;-(

----
Pete

Jason Earl
September 19th 06, 08:30 PM
"funkdys" > writes:

> Will Brink wrote:
>> In article om>,
>> "funkdys" > wrote:
>>
>> > Hello all:
>> >
>> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks
>> > now.
>>
>> 12 whole weeks?!
>
> Should I wait for a year, see no gains and then try to course
> correct?

Personally, I've never understood people that feel the need to mock
someone just because they are a newbie. You've been working out for 3
months, and you are interested enough in the subject that you are
doing a little research.

Seriously, what more can be expected? You can't hardly go back in
time and start three years earlier.

> I did mention in my post that I wasn't sure what timeframe one
> should reasonably expect to see some gains in.

Hopefully you have made some progress already :).

> I wanted to inquire now before continuing to spend more time and not
> make progress, lest I might be off track. I also suggested that I
> was observing perceptible gains elsewhere but not in my legs.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable approach. I certainly wish
that I would have asked more questions when I was first starting. I
made a lot of mistakes that cost me progress.

As an aside, despite what Pete says, my thighs have increased in size
far more dramatically now that I focus on deadlifts instead of squats.
How you respond does have a lot to do with genetics. I've got long
arms and a very long torso which makes it easier for me to deadlift
than to squat.

> Thanks to comments from several regulars, I now have a modified
> routine to try and some additional resources to refer to.
>
> If you've something constructive to offer, I'm all ears.

Good luck, and don't forget to eat.

Jason

Pez D Spencer
September 19th 06, 09:05 PM
funkdys wrote:
>
> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> twice a week.

you're a beginner. can the deadlifts and just focus on squats. just
do squats once per week, but up the sets to 6. i'd increase your reps
per set because 6 reps is too low for an inexperienced lifter such as
yourself. save the lower reps until you're more experienced. i got
spectacular results from a routine that just involved working each
muscle group directly only once per week when i was just starting out.

the only type of deadlift i've found worth doing is dumbbell deadlift,
and you're not at the point in your training career to add those in.

i'm kinda torn on the whole calf raise issue. i did a lot of standing
calf raises and donkey calf raises, but i'm not so sure they did much
other than allow me to do more in those exercises. i prefer donkey
calf raises or seated calf raises when i work calves--which i haven't
done in years other than the few times that i just wanna feel the pain
of a super slow set on seated.

> I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> measurements haven't changed any.

don't pay attention to measurements other than lean body mass.

> I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.

i don't recommend deadlifts. squats should be enough for anybody.

Pete
September 19th 06, 09:25 PM
"Jason Earl" > schreef:

> As an aside, despite what Pete says, my thighs have increased in size
> far more dramatically now that I focus on deadlifts instead of squats.
> How you respond does have a lot to do with genetics. I've got long
> arms and a very long torso which makes it easier for me to deadlift
> than to squat.

That doesnt make sense.

If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a long torso, then
your quadriceps have to work musch harder during the squat then the
deadlift. Which stimulates growth.

You said it yourself, its relatively easy for you to deadlift, right?

BTW, i wasnt dissing deadlifts as a *general* exercise.
They are just crappy when it comes to leg development...

But hey, what do i know ?!?!?!

----
Pete

Larry Hodges
September 19th 06, 09:46 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "Larry Hodges" > schreef:
>
>>> FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!
>
>>>> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>
>>> You are wellcome.
>
>> WTF are you talking about Pete? Forget DLs??
>
> Sure.
>
>> 1. Why would that hamper his progress?
>
> Larry, what exactly does a deadlift do?
> It gives knee and hip joint extension, while you hold the barbell in your
> hands.
> Squats and leg-presses also give that. The fact that you hold the bar in
> your hands is not an advantage, its a limiting factor. You create weak
> links.

While I agree that there are other exercises that do that, we both know that
changing things up is the key. Ok, don't do DLs this week, but rather the
things you suggest. Great. But to make a blanket statement that DLs are a
waste of time? That's where you're wrong.

Also, I use wrist straps to supplement my grip. Not all the time becasue I
want my grip to get stronger. But I use them toward the end of my lifts so
I don't have to limit my lifts because of my grip.

>> 2. Name something better for gluts?
>
> Squats, powerlift style, or leg presses, feet as high as possible on the
> sledge.

Again, these are great for gluts. But...so is DL. Why not rotate it in?

>> 3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the entire
>> body, and is a core lift for legs.
>
> Yes, but the problem is, they work TOO much simultanuously. And if your
> lower arms are relatively weak, the grip fails before the quads and glutes
> get a nice workout. Or the lower back fails. With squats, that problem is
> reduced, and with leg-presses, its even MORE reduced.

Bull**** answer Pete, and you know it. While there are times you want to
focus on specific muscles, there are times you want the compound lifts.
Why? Because they DO incorporate the entire body and build it as a unit.
There's more to lifting that pretty boy muscles Pete.

>> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you
>> are going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going too
>> heavy.
>
> And use a limited ROM. Move for about 60 degrees. NEVER more then 90.
>
>> Dude, I thought you knew your stuff.
>
> Dont worry. I do.
>
>> Obviously you're a noob.
>
> Eh... no.
>
>>Your advice sucks major ass here...
>
> Well, if thats your opinion.
>
>> you really ****ed up on this one.
>
> Really?
> Do you really think the Pro BBers got huge because they deadlift?

Oh, what-the-****-ever. Tell that to Hobbes. Tell him DLs are worthless.
While you're at it, tell Hanson. I'm sure they didn't get the memo.

> Think Larry, THINK !!!
> Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*

I don't. However, I have learned a lot here and won't discount that. Maybe
you're the one who is being too quick to toss out the advice given here?

>> I'm even thinking about killfiling you so I don't have to read this
>> ****ty advice. But then, I wouldn't be able to see it to correct it, so
>> maybe not.
>
> Thats the reason i didnt kill-file Freides. Cool.
>
> ----
> Pete

Cool. I've got you on my probationary kill-file list mister. Better watch
your step. I'll bring you up for review next week.

-Larry

Jason Earl
September 19th 06, 09:49 PM
"Pete" > writes:

> "Jason Earl" > schreef:
>
>> As an aside, despite what Pete says, my thighs have increased in
>> size far more dramatically now that I focus on deadlifts instead of
>> squats. How you respond does have a lot to do with genetics. I've
>> got long arms and a very long torso which makes it easier for me to
>> deadlift than to squat.
>
> That doesnt make sense.
>
> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a long torso,
> then your quadriceps have to work musch harder during the squat then
> the deadlift. Which stimulates growth.

That's what you would think, but that's certainly not what happened.
I personally think that moving to the deadlift allowed me to move more
weight which forced my legs to grow. I also think that my hamstrings
were somewhat underdeveloped. Either way, my thighs are definitely
bigger now (including the quads), and they didn't ever really grow
when I focused on squatting.

Another difference is that I now deadlift far more often than I
squatted. I deadlift up to 5 times a week. So it's possible that it
is the increase in frequency that triggered the growth.

> You said it yourself, its relatively easy for you to deadlift,
> right?

I believe that I have good levers for deadlifting. Yes.

> BTW, i wasnt dissing deadlifts as a *general* exercise. They are
> just crappy when it comes to leg development...

I beg to differ. Actually, I don't beg, I just differ :).

@#$!! that's a goofy saying.

Someday I'll have to try a program where I front squat on a regular
basis and see what that does to my legs. It's possible that if I used
a high frequency program with squats that I would see even more
results.

> But hey, what do i know ?!?!?!

You certainly have more experience than me. It's possible that I just
really like deadlifts.

Jason

Larry Hodges
September 19th 06, 09:54 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>
>> Nice work Pete,
>> wish I could've put it that simply.
>
> Well, thanks!
>
> But its not gonna make much of a difference, though.
> Deadlifts are consireded almost a religious experience here... ;-(
>
> ----
> Pete

I only do DLs on my prayer mat, while facing Mecca. And anybody who doesn't
like DLs, or even discounts DLs will be attacked using suicide bombers.
Fortunately they have been doing DLs, so they have the strength to carry all
the explosives on their holy bodies. Then when they get to heaven, their 74
virgins will marvel at their gluts and want to be constantly humped.

-Larry

Pez D Spencer
September 19th 06, 10:05 PM
> I only do DLs on my prayer mat, while facing Mecca. And anybody who doesn't
> like DLs, or even discounts DLs will be attacked using suicide bombers.
> Fortunately they have been doing DLs, so they have the strength to carry all
> the explosives on their holy bodies. Then when they get to heaven, their 74
> virgins will marvel at their gluts and want to be constantly humped.
>
> -Larry

even just illustrating deadlift form is punishable by death!

Curt James
September 19th 06, 11:55 PM
Larry Hodges wrote:
> "Pete" wrote
[...]

> > And **** the deadlifts when it comes to leg development.
[...]

> > Read my lips;
> >
> > FOR_GET_THE_DEAD_LIFT_!!!
[...]

> WTF are you talking about Pete? Forget DLs??
[...]

> I'm even thinking about killfiling you so I don't have to read this
> ****ty advice.
[...]

While I'm a huge (okay, skinny) fan of deads, I suspect squats, leg
extensions, leg presses, and leg curls work the quads and hams more
directly than the whole body movement that is the deadlift.

And, yeah, if I'm taking bodybuilding advice from someone, I do believe
it would be more welcomed from Pete than from... Hodges.

> -Larry

--
Curt

Bully
September 20th 06, 06:44 AM
Pez D Spencer wrote:
[...]
>
> i don't recommend deadlifts.

Why not?

> squats should be enough for anybody.

But what if I want to improve my deadlift? Or further develop my lower back?


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Pete
September 20th 06, 09:32 AM
"Larry Hodges" > schreef:

>> Larry, what exactly does a deadlift do?
>> It gives knee and hip joint extension, while you hold the barbell in your
>> hands.
>> Squats and leg-presses also give that. The fact that you hold the bar in
>> your hands is not an advantage, its a limiting factor. You create weak
>> links.

> While I agree that there are other exercises that do that, we both know
> that changing things up is the key.

No.

Progressive resistance is the key to growth. Muscle confusiuon is BULL****.
Yes, thats right. BULL**** !!!

The only thing you need to change are the weights, sets and reps.

> Ok, don't do DLs this week, but rather the things you suggest. Great.
> But to make a blanket statement that DLs are a waste of time? That's
> where you're wrong.

Because i didnt say that.
I was talking about leg development and exercises for leg develoipment.

The deadlift isnt just one of the best.

But even if i did, which i didnt, tell me what the benefits of the deadlifts
are if a certain person allready squats and rows. Help me out here.

> Also, I use wrist straps to supplement my grip. Not all the time becasue
> I want my grip to get stronger. But I use them toward the end of my lifts
> so I don't have to limit my lifts because of my grip.

>>> 2. Name something better for gluts?

>> Squats, powerlift style, or leg presses, feet as high as possible on the
>> sledge.

> Again, these are great for gluts. But...so is DL. Why not rotate it in?

For glutes? Sure.
For leg development, no. And again, doing squats PL style will hit the
glutes very hard.
Or even weightlifting style.

>>> 3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the entire
>>> body, and is a core lift for legs.

>> Yes, but the problem is, they work TOO much simultanuously. And if your
>> lower arms are relatively weak, the grip fails before the quads and
>> glutes get a nice workout. Or the lower back fails. With squats, that
>> problem is reduced, and with leg-presses, its even MORE reduced.

> Bull**** answer Pete, and you know it.

YOU are gonna tell me what i know?
BTW, we were talking about leg development. I am right.

> While there are times you want to focus on specific muscles, there are
> times you want the compound lifts.

Squats and leg presses, even hacks, are also compound lifts.

> Why?

Well, why?

> Because they DO incorporate the entire body and build it as a unit.

And YOU are assuming that because the lower arms, upper arms, delts and
traps tens up, the leg legs are stimulated to grow more?

Thats BULL**** Latty, and obviously, you DONT know that!

O, wait, i forgot!
Its that HUGE increase in testosterone and GH from doing the "big"
exercises?

> There's more to lifting that pretty boy muscles Pete.

Yeah...thanks for pointing that out to *me.*
Many times, people in the gym have accused for not only for training like a
powerlifter, but that that i ended up looking like one.

>>> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you
>>> are going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going
>>> too heavy.

>> And use a limited ROM. Move for about 60 degrees. NEVER more then 90.

>>> Dude, I thought you knew your stuff.

>> Dont worry. I do.

>>> Obviously you're a noob.

>> Eh... no.

>>>Your advice sucks major ass here...

>> Well, if thats your opinion.

>>> you really ****ed up on this one.

>> Really?
>> Do you really think the Pro BBers got huge because they deadlift?

> Oh, what-the-****-ever.

Good answer.


> Tell that to Hobbes.

Keith, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.

> Tell him DLs are worthless.

Ehhh... Keith is a powerlifter, Larry.
And again, i never said they were worthless. I was speaking wrt development
of the quads/hams.

> While you're at it, tell Hanson.

John, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.

> I'm sure they didn't get the memo.

They sure as hell got it now!

>> Think Larry, THINK !!!
>> Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*

> I don't.

Okay.
So enlighten me then.

At this moment, i stopped doing deads years ago, and i used them to bring
out my traps and spinals.

At this moment, i still squat, row, overhead press, curl.

Which muscles are not being hit, or, are underdevloped because i stopped
doind Dls?

Explain this in detail to me. Please. If you would be so kind, and have the
time , of course.
Teach me something i obviously dont know, and missed on all these years.
Help me to understand this complex matter.

> However, I have learned a lot here and won't discount that. Maybe you're
> the one who is being too quick to toss out the advice given here?

I think so.
So, help me out then.

Explain to me which muscles are being hit by the deadlift, if the person
does the beforementioned exercises.

>>> maybe not.

>> Thats the reason i didnt kill-file Freides. Cool.

> Cool. I've got you on my probationary kill-file list mister. Better
> watch your step.

Ehhh... yeah, i will watch my step, Larry. Thanks for putting up with me all
this time!

> I'll bring you up for review next week.

"I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"

Haha!

----
Pete

Pete
September 20th 06, 09:54 AM
"Jason Earl" > schreef:

>> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a long torso,
>> then your quadriceps have to work musch harder during the squat then
>> the deadlift. Which stimulates growth.

> That's what you would think, but that's certainly not what happened.
> I personally think that moving to the deadlift allowed me to move more
> weight which forced my legs to grow.

Again, thats weird and i wish i had an explanation for this.
We are talking about 2 movements with the knee and hip joint as the primary
movers, where in the squat, the centre of weight is on top of the body, so
that the the muscles connected to those joints, have to work extremely hard
to move the weight up.

With deadlifts, the centre of weight is 5-6 feet lower, and the torso is
inclined more forward because of that. This will result in a much harder
contraction of the spinal erectors, and in most people using maximum
weights, the spinals act as movers, not just stabilizers. And you are forced
to use the traps -and other muscles as well in that area- and the lower
arms.

Why this has resulted in bigger thighs in you is something i cant explain.

Maybe we are dealing with dark, mysterious forces at work here.
Or perhaps Larry, could explain, in detail, why the leg muscles grow so hard
as a result of performing deadlifts.

> I also think that my hamstrings
> were somewhat underdeveloped. Either way, my thighs are definitely
> bigger now (including the quads), and they didn't ever really grow
> when I focused on squatting.

Weird.

My jeans size is 34-36, and several years ago, i was bursting out of them.
Litterally.
Right now, i wear jogging pants, XL, and they wrap around my legs as
leggings. Besides development of quads, hams and glutes, the squats made my
inner thighs explode. Which ****ed up my clothes.

And this why i still do squats.
Not because of quad or ham/glute development. I can get that from other
exercises. It seems the adductors contract hard to stabilize the leg. I
think.

> Another difference is that I now deadlift far more often than I
> squatted. I deadlift up to 5 times a week. So it's possible that it
> is the increase in frequency that triggered the growth.

Could be.
5 times is a LOT, though...

>> You said it yourself, its relatively easy for you to deadlift,
>> right?

> I believe that I have good levers for deadlifting. Yes.

Which would dicrate harder contractions during squats, but this theorry
doesnt seem to apply to you.

>> BTW, i wasnt dissing deadlifts as a *general* exercise. They are
>> just crappy when it comes to leg development...

> I beg to differ. Actually, I don't beg, I just differ :).

> @#$!! that's a goofy saying.

> Someday I'll have to try a program where I front squat on a regular
> basis and see what that does to my legs.

Front squats are *excellent* quad builders. Good for inner thighs as well.

> It's possible that if I used
> a high frequency program with squats that I would see even more
> results.

Think so, yes.

----
Pete

Charles
September 20th 06, 09:58 AM
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:32:23 +0200, "Pete" >
wrote:

>"Larry Hodges" > schreef:
>
[...]

>
>> Tell him DLs are worthless.
>
>Ehhh... Keith is a powerlifter, Larry.
>And again, i never said they were worthless. I was speaking wrt development
>of the quads/hams.
>
>> While you're at it, tell Hanson.
>
>John, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.
>
>> I'm sure they didn't get the memo.
>
>They sure as hell got it now!
>
>>> Think Larry, THINK !!!
>>> Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*
>
>> I don't.
>
>Okay.
>So enlighten me then.
>
>At this moment, i stopped doing deads years ago, and i used them to bring
>out my traps and spinals.
>
>At this moment, i still squat, row, overhead press, curl.
>
>Which muscles are not being hit, or, are underdevloped because i stopped
>doind Dls?
>
>Explain this in detail to me. Please. If you would be so kind, and have the
>time , of course.
>Teach me something i obviously dont know, and missed on all these years.
>Help me to understand this complex matter.
>
>> However, I have learned a lot here and won't discount that. Maybe you're
>> the one who is being too quick to toss out the advice given here?
>
>I think so.
>So, help me out then.
>
>Explain to me which muscles are being hit by the deadlift, if the person
>does the beforementioned exercises.
>

It has long been a religion here that deadlifts are *the* lift. This
is not surprising given the interest of some long established and
respected contributors in powerlifting. My own experience is that the
lift is much over-rated and essentially non specific.

Given that there is no prime mover, the erector spinae being the main
beneficiary which is employed only in an isometric capacity, the
remaining musculature is employed only synergistically or as
stabilizers.

I agree with Pete that there are much better exercises which are
specific for the major muscle groups, and as a consequence better
value than the deadlift.

Pete
September 20th 06, 10:13 AM
"Bully" > schreef:

>> i don't recommend deadlifts.

> Why not?

I think he means to involve *too* much, besides the leg muscles.

>> squats should be enough for anybody.

> But what if I want to improve my deadlift?

If you want to improve on your deadlift, you should deadlift.

> Or further develop my lower back?

Deadlift.
Together with SL deads and hyperextensions. thats it.

Perhaps, as i do now, cable rows with a long ROM. Build my spinals very
well.

----
Pete

rev
September 20th 06, 10:38 AM
Pete wrote:
<snip>

>
>> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you are
>> going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going too
>> heavy.
>

After beginning to have knee problems (almost 55 years of age) I have
stopped squatting and even the leg press when going heavy seems to
randomly make my patella tendon play up. So I need to find another quad
exercise. Deadlifts have no effect on the knees and I lift off the floor
so I continue to perform them 2-3 times a week.

To the point (and after lifting for 2.5 years and knowing that the leg
extension can be damaging for knees, especially going over 90 degrees,
I feel silly to have to ask) the 60 degrees, is that angle measured from
legs fully extended or the opposite?

>
> ----
> Pete
>
>


--
Bob Volkmer

Pete
September 20th 06, 11:12 AM
"rev" > schreef:

> To the point (and after lifting for 2.5 years and knowing that the leg
> extension can be damaging for knees, especially going over 90 degrees, I
> feel silly to have to ask) the 60 degrees, is that angle measured from
> legs fully extended or the opposite?

From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
degrees or even 90, not more.

Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
without knee problems.

----
Pete

Charles
September 20th 06, 11:38 AM
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:12:16 +0200, "Pete" >
wrote:

>"rev" > schreef:
>
>> To the point (and after lifting for 2.5 years and knowing that the leg
>> extension can be damaging for knees, especially going over 90 degrees, I
>> feel silly to have to ask) the 60 degrees, is that angle measured from
>> legs fully extended or the opposite?
>
>From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
>degrees or even 90, not more.

Why?

In all other exercises we preach that they should be done using proper
form throughout the entire ROM.

>
>Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
>without knee problems.
>

I had increasing knee problems until a few years ago, when Keith
(Hobbes) advised me to try full deadlifts and squats (arse to grass)
as part of my routine.

I did as he suggested and the improvement was quite dramatic. I have
ever since done all my leg exercises through the complete range of
movement, including quad curls which Keith advised against because of
the shear problem, to good effect.

As with all long-term athletes, I have arthritis in the knee joints,
together with the odd floating bits of cartilage, but I am
successfully postponing a long-planned for arthroscopy, as my knees
are generally functioning extremely well - and without the pain I was
once experiencing!!

Uncle Bob
September 20th 06, 11:44 AM
I will forward this message on behalf of Pete, since Larry might have
killfiled him...

"Pete" > schreef in bericht
...
> "Larry Hodges" > schreef:
>
>>> Larry, what exactly does a deadlift do?
>>> It gives knee and hip joint extension, while you hold the barbell in
>>> your hands.
>>> Squats and leg-presses also give that. The fact that you hold the bar in
>>> your hands is not an advantage, its a limiting factor. You create weak
>>> links.
>
>> While I agree that there are other exercises that do that, we both know
>> that changing things up is the key.
>
> No.
>
> Progressive resistance is the key to growth. Muscle confusiuon is
> BULL****.
> Yes, thats right. BULL**** !!!
>
> The only thing you need to change are the weights, sets and reps.
>
>> Ok, don't do DLs this week, but rather the things you suggest. Great.
>> But to make a blanket statement that DLs are a waste of time? That's
>> where you're wrong.
>
> Because i didnt say that.
> I was talking about leg development and exercises for leg develoipment.
>
> The deadlift isnt just one of the best.
>
> But even if i did, which i didnt, tell me what the benefits of the
> deadlifts are if a certain person allready squats and rows. Help me out
> here.
>
>> Also, I use wrist straps to supplement my grip. Not all the time becasue
>> I want my grip to get stronger. But I use them toward the end of my
>> lifts so I don't have to limit my lifts because of my grip.
>
>>>> 2. Name something better for gluts?
>
>>> Squats, powerlift style, or leg presses, feet as high as possible on the
>>> sledge.
>
>> Again, these are great for gluts. But...so is DL. Why not rotate it in?
>
> For glutes? Sure.
> For leg development, no. And again, doing squats PL style will hit the
> glutes very hard.
> Or even weightlifting style.
>
>>>> 3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the
>>>> entire body, and is a core lift for legs.
>
>>> Yes, but the problem is, they work TOO much simultanuously. And if your
>>> lower arms are relatively weak, the grip fails before the quads and
>>> glutes get a nice workout. Or the lower back fails. With squats, that
>>> problem is reduced, and with leg-presses, its even MORE reduced.
>
>> Bull**** answer Pete, and you know it.
>
> YOU are gonna tell me what i know?
> BTW, we were talking about leg development. I am right.
>
>> While there are times you want to focus on specific muscles, there are
>> times you want the compound lifts.
>
> Squats and leg presses, even hacks, are also compound lifts.
>
>> Why?
>
> Well, why?
>
>> Because they DO incorporate the entire body and build it as a unit.
>
> And YOU are assuming that because the lower arms, upper arms, delts and
> traps tens up, the leg legs are stimulated to grow more?
>
> Thats BULL**** Latty, and obviously, you DONT know that!
>
> O, wait, i forgot!
> Its that HUGE increase in testosterone and GH from doing the "big"
> exercises?
>
>> There's more to lifting that pretty boy muscles Pete.
>
> Yeah...thanks for pointing that out to *me.*
> Many times, people in the gym have accused for not only for training like
> a powerlifter, but that that i ended up looking like one.
>
>>>> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you
>>>> are going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going
>>>> too heavy.
>
>>> And use a limited ROM. Move for about 60 degrees. NEVER more then 90.
>
>>>> Dude, I thought you knew your stuff.
>
>>> Dont worry. I do.
>
>>>> Obviously you're a noob.
>
>>> Eh... no.
>
>>>>Your advice sucks major ass here...
>
>>> Well, if thats your opinion.
>
>>>> you really ****ed up on this one.
>
>>> Really?
>>> Do you really think the Pro BBers got huge because they deadlift?
>
>> Oh, what-the-****-ever.
>
> Good answer.
>
>
>> Tell that to Hobbes.
>
> Keith, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.
>
>> Tell him DLs are worthless.
>
> Ehhh... Keith is a powerlifter, Larry.
> And again, i never said they were worthless. I was speaking wrt
> development of the quads/hams.
>
>> While you're at it, tell Hanson.
>
> John, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.
>
>> I'm sure they didn't get the memo.
>
> They sure as hell got it now!
>
>>> Think Larry, THINK !!!
>>> Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*
>
>> I don't.
>
> Okay.
> So enlighten me then.
>
> At this moment, i stopped doing deads years ago, and i used them to bring
> out my traps and spinals.
>
> At this moment, i still squat, row, overhead press, curl.
>
> Which muscles are not being hit, or, are underdevloped because i stopped
> doind Dls?
>
> Explain this in detail to me. Please. If you would be so kind, and have
> the time , of course.
> Teach me something i obviously dont know, and missed on all these years.
> Help me to understand this complex matter.
>
>> However, I have learned a lot here and won't discount that. Maybe you're
>> the one who is being too quick to toss out the advice given here?
>
> I think so.
> So, help me out then.
>
> Explain to me which muscles are being hit by the deadlift, if the person
> does the beforementioned exercises.
>
>>>> maybe not.
>
>>> Thats the reason i didnt kill-file Freides. Cool.
>
>> Cool. I've got you on my probationary kill-file list mister. Better
>> watch your step.
>
> Ehhh... yeah, i will watch my step, Larry. Thanks for putting up with me
> all this time!
>
>> I'll bring you up for review next week.
>
> "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
> Haha!
>
> ----
> Pete
>

Uncle Bob
September 20th 06, 11:57 AM
"Charles" > schreef:

>>From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
>>degrees or even 90, not more.

> Why?

I think Pete means that when you do heavy extensions, going beyond that
certain ROM will increase the risk of hurting the knees.

> In all other exercises we preach that they should be done using proper
> form throughout the entire ROM.

For muscular hypertrophy, or increased strength, you really dont need a full
ROM. Lets take the chest, for example. You can bring the humurus 45-60
degrees behind the torso, and bring it forward all the way across the chest.
Thats about 200 degrees or more.

Yet, when you do *barbell* bench presses, even if the *bar* goes all the way
up and down, you only used a fraction of the *full* ROM. Flyes and DB
presses go bit further, but also use only a fraction of the *real* ROM.

I can use the same example for back and deltoid exercises. Many people
assume they go through a full ROM, while in reality, they only use a
fraction of the ROM of the humerus. They *might* go through a full ROM of a
certain exercise, but thats a fraction of the *true* ROM.

Shrugs, for example, can be performed using a *full* ROM. When you do
shrugs. When you do another exercise, the shrugging part is only a fraction
of the ROM.

Many people still fail to realize this "phenomenon."

The *key* is *progressive resistance* on *whatever part* of the ROM you work
at.

>>Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
>>without knee problems.

> I had increasing knee problems until a few years ago, when Keith
> (Hobbes) advised me to try full deadlifts and squats (arse to grass)
> as part of my routine.

> I did as he suggested and the improvement was quite dramatic. I have
> ever since done all my leg exercises through the complete range of
> movement, including quad curls which Keith advised against because of
> the shear problem, to good effect.

Yes, with leg curls, it seems the knee doesnt get much stress.

--
Uncle Bob

rev
September 20th 06, 12:23 PM
Uncle Bob wrote:
> "Charles" > schreef:
>
>> >From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
>>> degrees or even 90, not more.
>
>> Why?
>
> I think Pete means that when you do heavy extensions, going beyond that
> certain ROM will increase the risk of hurting the knees.
>
>> In all other exercises we preach that they should be done using proper
>> form throughout the entire ROM.
>
> For muscular hypertrophy, or increased strength, you really dont need a full
> ROM. Lets take the chest, for example. You can bring the humurus 45-60
> degrees behind the torso, and bring it forward all the way across the chest.
> Thats about 200 degrees or more.
>
> Yet, when you do *barbell* bench presses, even if the *bar* goes all the way
> up and down, you only used a fraction of the *full* ROM. Flyes and DB
> presses go bit further, but also use only a fraction of the *real* ROM.
>
> I can use the same example for back and deltoid exercises. Many people
> assume they go through a full ROM, while in reality, they only use a
> fraction of the ROM of the humerus. They *might* go through a full ROM of a
> certain exercise, but thats a fraction of the *true* ROM.
>
> Shrugs, for example, can be performed using a *full* ROM. When you do
> shrugs. When you do another exercise, the shrugging part is only a fraction
> of the ROM.
>
> Many people still fail to realize this "phenomenon."
>
> The *key* is *progressive resistance* on *whatever part* of the ROM you work
> at.
>
>>> Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
>>> without knee problems.
>
>> I had increasing knee problems until a few years ago, when Keith
>> (Hobbes) advised me to try full deadlifts and squats (arse to grass)
>> as part of my routine.
>
>> I did as he suggested and the improvement was quite dramatic. I have
>> ever since done all my leg exercises through the complete range of
>> movement, including quad curls which Keith advised against because of
>> the shear problem, to good effect.
>
> Yes, with leg curls, it seems the knee doesnt get much stress.
>
> --
> Uncle Bob
>
>

I am glad I asked my "stupid" question. Great advice imo and the
examples make sense to my simple mind. Thanks.

--
Bob Volkmer

Charles
September 20th 06, 02:01 PM
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:57:03 +0200, "Uncle Bob"
> wrote:

>"Charles" > schreef:
>
>>>From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
>>>degrees or even 90, not more.
>
>> Why?
>
>I think Pete means that when you do heavy extensions, going beyond that
>certain ROM will increase the risk of hurting the knees.
>
>> In all other exercises we preach that they should be done using proper
>> form throughout the entire ROM.
>
>For muscular hypertrophy, or increased strength, you really dont need a full
>ROM. Lets take the chest, for example. You can bring the humurus 45-60
>degrees behind the torso, and bring it forward all the way across the chest.
>Thats about 200 degrees or more.

I don't think so; 180 degrees would have your arms completely
reversed. 200 degrees would require your arms to be passing under the
bench and out the other side, or crossing over behind you! ;o)

>
>Yet, when you do *barbell* bench presses, even if the *bar* goes all the way
>up and down, you only used a fraction of the *full* ROM. Flyes and DB
>presses go bit further, but also use only a fraction of the *real* ROM.

The bar precludes the full ROM in the bench press. When using
dumbbells I use as much of the ROM as I find comfortable, which is not
much more than 90 degrees, including flyes.

>
>I can use the same example for back and deltoid exercises. Many people
>assume they go through a full ROM, while in reality, they only use a
>fraction of the ROM of the humerus. They *might* go through a full ROM of a
>certain exercise, but thats a fraction of the *true* ROM.

I think you may be calculating the angle created by both arms, when in
fact the angle created in the full ROM is calculated for each arm
individually, so the angle is a great deal less than you are assuming.

It is possible to put the arm through a complete 360 degree circle,
but unless you're club swinging there aren't many weight training
exercises that allow or require the upper arm to travel anywhere near
that potential ROM.

>
>Shrugs, for example, can be performed using a *full* ROM. When you do
>shrugs. When you do another exercise, the shrugging part is only a fraction
>of the ROM.
>
>Many people still fail to realize this "phenomenon."
>
>The *key* is *progressive resistance* on *whatever part* of the ROM you work
>at.
>
>>>Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
>>>without knee problems.
>
>> I had increasing knee problems until a few years ago, when Keith
>> (Hobbes) advised me to try full deadlifts and squats (arse to grass)
>> as part of my routine.
>
>> I did as he suggested and the improvement was quite dramatic. I have
>> ever since done all my leg exercises through the complete range of
>> movement, including quad curls which Keith advised against because of
>> the shear problem, to good effect.
>
>Yes, with leg curls, it seems the knee doesnt get much stress.

I'm certainly not getting any problems.

James Ahrens
September 20th 06, 02:22 PM
Pete,

I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a body
builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic exercise.
OK the post was about leg development, but the poster seemed to be
recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter healthier etc, (and
bigger presumably), and may not refer to thimself as a bodybuilder (not
wishing to put words in his mouth)

Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg extensions
yourself.
As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.

James


Pete wrote:
> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>
> > You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add more
> > exercises in the mix?
> > Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
> > supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls etc.
> > during your lower body sessions.
>
> Uh-OH !!!
>
> Now you have done it !!!
>
> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for Christ
> Sake !!!
> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or extensions
> ?!?!?!?
>
> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>
> ----
> Pete

Bully
September 20th 06, 02:52 PM
James Ahrens wrote:
> Pete,
>
> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a body
> builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic exercise.
> OK the post was about leg development, but the poster seemed to be
> recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter healthier etc,
> (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to thimself as a
> bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
>
> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg extensions
> yourself.
> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
>
> James
>
>
> Pete wrote:
>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>>
>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add more
>>> exercises in the mix?
>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
>>
>> Uh-OH !!!
>>
>> Now you have done it !!!
>>
>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
>> Christ Sake !!!
>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
>> extensions ?!?!?!?
>>
>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>>
>> ----
>> Pete

What exercise? What sport?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

James Ahrens
September 20th 06, 03:10 PM
As you ask,

My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
routines, curcuits etc.
and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in the
winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing machine
(cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
compared to ergometers e.g.)
hope thats what you meant?

James

Bully wrote:
> James Ahrens wrote:
> > Pete,
> >
> > I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
> > Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
> > primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a body
> > builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic exercise.
> > OK the post was about leg development, but the poster seemed to be
> > recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter healthier etc,
> > (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to thimself as a
> > bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
> >
> > Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg extensions
> > yourself.
> > As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > Pete wrote:
> >> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
> >>
> >>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add more
> >>> exercises in the mix?
> >>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
> >>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
> >>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
> >>
> >> Uh-OH !!!
> >>
> >> Now you have done it !!!
> >>
> >> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
> >> Christ Sake !!!
> >> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
> >> extensions ?!?!?!?
> >>
> >> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
> >>
> >> ----
> >> Pete
>
> What exercise? What sport?
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Bully
September 20th 06, 04:11 PM
James Ahrens wrote:
> As you ask,
>
> My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
> As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
> well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
> routines, curcuits etc.
> and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in the
> winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing machine
> (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
> compared to ergometers e.g.)
> hope thats what you meant?
>
> James
>
> Bully wrote:
>> James Ahrens wrote:
>>> Pete,
>>>
>>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
>>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
>>> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a
>>> body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic
>>> exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the poster
>>> seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter
>>> healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to
>>> thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
>>>
>>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
>>> extensions yourself.
>>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete wrote:
>>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>>>>
>>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
>>>>> more exercises in the mix?
>>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
>>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
>>>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
>>>>
>>>> Uh-OH !!!
>>>>
>>>> Now you have done it !!!
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
>>>> Christ Sake !!!
>>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
>>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
>>>>
>>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Pete
>>
>> What exercise? What sport?
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry O'Neil]
recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific. After all, you do
need muscular balance regardless of which muscles are most important for
your particular sport.! You rowed in the Olympics did you say? When? What
event?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

James Ahrens
September 20th 06, 04:39 PM
I agree, with the sports specific comment up to a point, although ,
without wanting to be derogatory to him, T O'Neil is hardly at the
forefront of training methods.

A lot of the club sport (like in any sport I presume) has a lot to
learn, training methods wise, but at the same time, they have realworld
issues, to balance a limited amount of available training time, with
actually getting stronger and faster.

Anyway, we did do some sport specific weights, e.g. bench pull is a big
one, but not too much, actually we learnt a lot from the weightlifters
and their coaches, in terms of technique, as DL, power cleans, squats
etc were core exercises really.

did combine weigths with a lot of exercise ball work, with weights etc,
as core stability was pretty key in avoiding injury, but again not too
much was sport specific.
Balance strengh I agree is the end goal, but as in a lot of sports,
kids pick up bad habits early on and then when (if) they egt to a high
level have to spend years correcting them. There is also the issue of
what type of balance, as depending on the sport you need an element of
strength, but sometimes also speed, strength endurance etc. so athletes
will get given 'sports' specific weights or isometric exercises

rowed in Sydney, event 8+
(name in e-mail, JA are my two buddies, (J) Cracknell, and (C)hris
Ahrens)
(dont' really want to publicise that)


Bully wrote:
> James Ahrens wrote:
> > As you ask,
> >
> > My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
> > As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
> > well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
> > routines, curcuits etc.
> > and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in the
> > winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing machine
> > (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
> > compared to ergometers e.g.)
> > hope thats what you meant?
> >
> > James
> >
> > Bully wrote:
> >> James Ahrens wrote:
> >>> Pete,
> >>>
> >>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
> >>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
> >>> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a
> >>> body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic
> >>> exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the poster
> >>> seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter
> >>> healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to
> >>> thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
> >>> extensions yourself.
> >>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
> >>>
> >>> James
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Pete wrote:
> >>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
> >>>>
> >>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
> >>>>> more exercises in the mix?
> >>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
> >>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
> >>>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
> >>>>
> >>>> Uh-OH !!!
> >>>>
> >>>> Now you have done it !!!
> >>>>
> >>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
> >>>> Christ Sake !!!
> >>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
> >>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
> >>>>
> >>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
> >>>>
> >>>> ----
> >>>> Pete
> >>
> >> What exercise? What sport?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>
> It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry O'Neil]
> recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific. After all, you do
> need muscular balance regardless of which muscles are most important for
> your particular sport.! You rowed in the Olympics did you say? When? What
> event?
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

minnehaha
September 20th 06, 06:06 PM
funkdys wrote:
> Hello all:
>
> I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
> My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
> While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
> visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
> advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious to
> change that.
>
> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
> squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
> is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
> form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
>
> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
>
> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>


I'm surprised amidst all the bickering over which exercises to do,
nobody brought up your diet. You cryptically mention that you "changed
your diet to support your objectives" but what exactly does that mean?
As a beginner, the routine you mentioned should result in at least
*some* gain in size. So, what are you eating?

Andrzej Rosa
September 20th 06, 06:11 PM
funkdys wrote:

> OK - I think I got it... no more deadlifts, increase volume and add
> curls, presses and extensions to the routine in addition to squats and
> calf raises.

I think you got confused with all this discussion about advanced stuff.

IMHO take home message would be to squat 2-3 times a week for some three or
four sets per session. Add weight to the bar whenever you are able and
simply lift it. Do not go below 8 rep per set for a while (like 6 months,
or something around it). Remember to hit right depth when squatting. It
is easy to fool yourself into "false progress mode" by reducing depth
gradually.

> Could you educate me on when one should incorporate deadlifts into the
> routine

They would have to replace squats. Do them instead of squats, if you like
them.

> and what the primary benefits might be?

You'd be able to lift something heavy IRL. Besides you'd have stronger and
thicker back, strong glutes (girls like them, I'm told on occasion ;-) and
you will have strong grip too. IMHO they are worth the effort, but I'm not
a bodybuilder, obviously.

> My limited
> understanding was that DLs were good for overall development

Right.

> of the legs...

Too.

> I'm assuming that's not the case.

They are not necessary. There are many people with big legs who never do
DLs.

> Thank you for your informed recommendation. Much appreciated.

Guys had a nice discussion, that is a fact, but do not take it too
seriously. For a beginner like you, the most important thing is to have a
no nonsense routine and persist at doing it long enough.

Nothing beats adding weight to the bar.

Regards.
--
Andrzej Rosa

Uncle Bob
September 20th 06, 06:31 PM
"minnehaha" > schreef:

>> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.

> I'm surprised amidst all the bickering over which exercises to do, nobody
> brought up your diet.

Diet?

What Diet?

**** the diet.

--
Uncle Bob

Bully
September 20th 06, 07:01 PM
James Ahrens wrote:
> I agree, with the sports specific comment up to a point, although ,
> without wanting to be derogatory to him, T O'Neil is hardly at the
> forefront of training methods.

I'm totally inclined to agree. In fact I've had a number of <ahem>
discussions with him and his position is "well, I trained x Olympic
athletes, what's your pedigree." :) !!

>
> A lot of the club sport (like in any sport I presume) has a lot to
> learn, training methods wise, but at the same time, they have
> realworld issues, to balance a limited amount of available training
> time, with actually getting stronger and faster.
>
> Anyway, we did do some sport specific weights, e.g. bench pull is a
> big one,

That's the one that makes me smile, because rowing is not an exercise in
pulling! The power clean and the squat have way more in common with the
power stroke in rowing than does the bench pull!


> but not too much, actually we learnt a lot from the
> weightlifters and their coaches, in terms of technique, as DL, power
> cleans, squats etc were core exercises really.

Ah, nail, head, hit!

>
> did combine weigths with a lot of exercise ball work, with weights
> etc, as core stability was pretty key in avoiding injury, but again
> not too much was sport specific.

Is anything really sports-specific? I'm coach at a rugby club & i'm yet to
find an exercise in the gym that really mimics tackling a player to the
ground, or hitting a ruck at speed, or even passing a ball :) !!! I have the
players work on strength and power in the gym and the sports-specific stuff
on the training ground.

> Balance strengh I agree is the end goal, but as in a lot of sports,
> kids pick up bad habits early on and then when (if) they egt to a high
> level have to spend years correcting them.

I spent a long time ironing out my rowing stroke [legs breaking too early].
I did months of arms-arms, legs-legs .

> There is also the issue of
> what type of balance, as depending on the sport you need an element of
> strength, but sometimes also speed, strength endurance etc. so
> athletes will get given 'sports' specific weights or isometric
> exercises

See my comments above!

> rowed in Sydney, event 8+
> (name in e-mail, JA are my two buddies, (J) Cracknell, and (C)hris
> Ahrens)
> (dont' really want to publicise that)

So, who are you?


> Bully wrote:
>> James Ahrens wrote:[i]
>>> As you ask,
>>>
>>> My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
>>> As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
>>> well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
>>> routines, curcuits etc.
>>> and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in
>>> the winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing
>>> machine (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below
>>> threshold, compared to ergometers e.g.)
>>> hope thats what you meant?
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> James Ahrens wrote:
>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>
>>>>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
>>>>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do
>>>>> weights, primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and
>>>>> not as a body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of
>>>>> aerobic exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the
>>>>> poster seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get
>>>>> fitter healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer
>>>>> to thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his
>>>>> mouth)
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
>>>>> extensions yourself.
>>>>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
>>>>>>> more exercises in the mix?
>>>>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
>>>>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg
>>>>>>> curls etc. during your lower body sessions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh-OH !!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now you have done it !!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
>>>>>> Christ Sake !!!
>>>>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
>>>>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Pete
>>>>
>>>> What exercise? What sport?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bully
>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>>>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>>
>> It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry
>> O'Neil] recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific.
>> After all, you do need muscular balance regardless of which muscles
>> are most important for your particular sport.! You rowed in the
>> Olympics did you say? When? What event?
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Jason Earl
September 20th 06, 10:04 PM
"Pete" > writes:

> "Jason Earl" > schreef:
>
>>> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a long
>>> torso, then your quadriceps have to work musch harder during the
>>> squat then the deadlift. Which stimulates growth.
>
>> That's what you would think, but that's certainly not what
>> happened. I personally think that moving to the deadlift allowed
>> me to move more weight which forced my legs to grow.
>
> Again, thats weird and i wish i had an explanation for this. We are
> talking about 2 movements with the knee and hip joint as the primary
> movers, where in the squat, the centre of weight is on top of the
> body, so that the the muscles connected to those joints, have to
> work extremely hard to move the weight up.

First of all, thanks for another awesome post. I keep wanting to
disregard what you say, but you always make me think. This time was
no exception.

Looking over my training log it would appear that I have never really
spent much time working on heavy back squats, and when I did front
squats I usually cleaned the weight, which definitely compromised how
much weight I could use.

> With deadlifts, the centre of weight is 5-6 feet lower, and the
> torso is inclined more forward because of that. This will result in
> a much harder contraction of the spinal erectors, and in most people
> using maximum weights, the spinals act as movers, not just
> stabilizers. And you are forced to use the traps -and other muscles
> as well in that area- and the lower arms.

It's hard to disagree with that. There's no question that my back and
traps have grown from deadlifting. I could swear my quads and inner
thighs have grown as well, but I only have thigh measurements to go
by.

However, I have to admit, after looking at my training journal, that
it is entirely possible that my legs would have grown more if I had
shown heavy squats a bit more love.

> Why this has resulted in bigger thighs in you is something i cant
> explain.

My quads are definitely working at the bottom of the deadlift, and I
have also spent quite a bit of time working on pistols. I don't
generally count that as part of my workout because I just do it at
random times during the day, but it's probably a factor as well.

Another factor is that I am gradually becoming more and more
consistent with my diet, and more motivated in the weight room.
Comparing my earlier results to my current results probably is not a
good idea (but I still do it all the time :).

> Maybe we are dealing with dark, mysterious forces at work here. Or
> perhaps Larry, could explain, in detail, why the leg muscles grow so
> hard as a result of performing deadlifts.

There are a lot of folks with impressive wheels that like to deadlift.
Of course, they generally squat as well.

>> I also think that my hamstrings were somewhat underdeveloped.
>> Either way, my thighs are definitely bigger now (including the
>> quads), and they didn't ever really grow when I focused on
>> squatting.
>
> Weird.
>
> My jeans size is 34-36, and several years ago, i was bursting out of
> them. Litterally. Right now, i wear jogging pants, XL, and they
> wrap around my legs as leggings. Besides development of quads, hams
> and glutes, the squats made my inner thighs explode. Which ****ed up
> my clothes.

Maybe its time to mix in back squats... I like the idea of having
thighs that are too big for my pants.

> And this why i still do squats. Not because of quad or ham/glute
> development. I can get that from other exercises. It seems the
> adductors contract hard to stabilize the leg. I think.
>
>> Another difference is that I now deadlift far more often than I
>> squatted. I deadlift up to 5 times a week. So it's possible that
>> it is the increase in frequency that triggered the growth.
>
> Could be. 5 times is a LOT, though...

Yes, but it's just two sets per day (five reps), and the second set is
only 90% of the first. The overall volume isn't very much, but there
is plenty of stimulus.

You can do an exercise 5 days a week if you are only going to do ten
reps per day.

>>> You said it yourself, its relatively easy for you to deadlift,
>>> right?
>
>> I believe that I have good levers for deadlifting. Yes.
>
> Which would dicrate harder contractions during squats, but this
> theorry doesnt seem to apply to you.

No, it probably does. I think that it is entirely possible that I
didn't give squats enough of a chance.

>>> BTW, i wasnt dissing deadlifts as a *general* exercise. They are
>>> just crappy when it comes to leg development...
>
>> I beg to differ. Actually, I don't beg, I just differ :).
>
>> @#$!! that's a goofy saying.
>
>> Someday I'll have to try a program where I front squat on a regular
>> basis and see what that does to my legs.
>
> Front squats are *excellent* quad builders. Good for inner thighs as
> well.

Good, I like front squats better. I find them to be more comfortable
than back squats, and it's easier to get the form down (for me).
Plus, I can still feel like I am prepping for an Oly contest instead
of just trying to get big quads.

>> It's possible that if I used a high frequency program with squats
>> that I would see even more results.
>
> Think so, yes.

Thanks again for making me think. I appreciate it.

Jason

Curt James
September 21st 06, 12:50 AM
funkdys wrote:
[...]

re Will Brink

> If you've something constructive to offer<snip>

ahahahHAHAH! Brink? If he's not selling one of his etomes, pointing to
his "pop fitness website" or offering a gun link, I'd say you're out of
luck.

Hmm. Otoh, if you have a question about man boobs...

--
Curt

Stu
September 21st 06, 02:29 AM
funkdys wrote:
> is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my

Perhaps most people, but not all - the most I've ever deadlifted is
10kg under the most I've ever squatted and I've never been a
particularly good (traditional style) deadlifter. Maybe because I have
long legs - or maybe because it's easier to have someone spot you on
squats than deads. :-)

FWIW, exrx.net lists deadlifts under erector spinae and glutes - NOT
quads or hams. (Except SLDLs which are different).
I've never done deadlifts for leg development - I only do them on back
day, which is 4 days after quads, and the day after hamstrings. I've
never had difficulty in doing the lift because my legs were fatigued
(though sore, yes, particularly in the hamstrings when getting into
position). Oh, and I wish my glutes were -smaller-... too big from
squats and leg press.

I agree with Pete - deadlifts are of limited use in a bodybuilding
program. Squats, leg press, hack squats, SLDLs, leg curls, good
mornings are all far better for leg development. <rant> And don't
neglect your hamstrings! A couple of sets of half arsed leg curls
tacked onto the end of your quad workout isn't going to get you very
far. I see people spend an hour on biceps and 5 minutes on hamstrings.
Nothing looks worse on stage than a side pose with a lack of good leg
biceps! </rant>


Stu

Curt James
September 21st 06, 02:51 AM
Pete wrote:
> "Jason Earl" schreef:
>
> > <snip> I've got long arms and a very long torso which
> > makes it easier for me to deadlift than to squat.
>
> That doesnt make sense.

Why not? Similar to Jason, I've got long arms and a very long torso.
And I also find it easier for me to deadlift than to squat. Easier as
in I can deadlift more weight (290 lbs x 3 reps, 305 lbs x 2 reps) than
I can squat (210 lbs. x 3 reps).

> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a
> long torso, then your quadriceps have to work musch
> harder during the squat then the deadlift. <snip>

Although at first glance I agree with that statement, I don't believe I
fully understand what you're saying here, Pete. But I will say that I
suspect deads are easier for me with my looooong arms for the same
reason benches are easy for the man with shooooort arms (and a deep
chest) - less distance to move the weight.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the ideal physique for the deadlift is one
with very long arms and a very short torso. Ideally - with your legs
fully extended - you'd be able to touch your knuckles to the floor as
you grip the bar. ;o)

> Pete

Curt
member of the unofficial and unauthorized Pete's Bodybuilding Advice
fan club

--

mike
September 21st 06, 05:51 AM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> "Pete" > writes:
>
> > "Jason Earl" > schreef:
> >
> >>> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a long
> >>> torso, then your quadriceps have to work musch harder during the
> >>> squat then the deadlift. Which stimulates growth.
> >
> >> That's what you would think, but that's certainly not what
> >> happened. I personally think that moving to the deadlift allowed
> >> me to move more weight which forced my legs to grow.
> >
> > Again, thats weird and i wish i had an explanation for this. We are
> > talking about 2 movements with the knee and hip joint as the primary
> > movers, where in the squat, the centre of weight is on top of the
> > body, so that the the muscles connected to those joints, have to
> > work extremely hard to move the weight up.
>
> First of all, thanks for another awesome post. I keep wanting to
> disregard what you say, but you always make me think. This time was
> no exception.
>
> Looking over my training log it would appear that I have never really
> spent much time working on heavy back squats, and when I did front
> squats I usually cleaned the weight, which definitely compromised how
> much weight I could use.
>
> > With deadlifts, the centre of weight is 5-6 feet lower, and the
> > torso is inclined more forward because of that. This will result in
> > a much harder contraction of the spinal erectors, and in most people
> > using maximum weights, the spinals act as movers, not just
> > stabilizers. And you are forced to use the traps -and other muscles
> > as well in that area- and the lower arms.
>
> It's hard to disagree with that. There's no question that my back and
> traps have grown from deadlifting. I could swear my quads and inner
> thighs have grown as well, but I only have thigh measurements to go
> by.
>
> However, I have to admit, after looking at my training journal, that
> it is entirely possible that my legs would have grown more if I had
> shown heavy squats a bit more love.
>
> > Why this has resulted in bigger thighs in you is something i cant
> > explain.
>
> My quads are definitely working at the bottom of the deadlift, and I
> have also spent quite a bit of time working on pistols. I don't
> generally count that as part of my workout because I just do it at
> random times during the day, but it's probably a factor as well.
>
> Another factor is that I am gradually becoming more and more
> consistent with my diet, and more motivated in the weight room.
> Comparing my earlier results to my current results probably is not a
> good idea (but I still do it all the time :).
>
> > Maybe we are dealing with dark, mysterious forces at work here. Or
> > perhaps Larry, could explain, in detail, why the leg muscles grow so
> > hard as a result of performing deadlifts.
>
> There are a lot of folks with impressive wheels that like to deadlift.
> Of course, they generally squat as well.
>
> >> I also think that my hamstrings were somewhat underdeveloped.
> >> Either way, my thighs are definitely bigger now (including the
> >> quads), and they didn't ever really grow when I focused on
> >> squatting.
> >
> > Weird.
> >
> > My jeans size is 34-36, and several years ago, i was bursting out of
> > them. Litterally. Right now, i wear jogging pants, XL, and they
> > wrap around my legs as leggings. Besides development of quads, hams
> > and glutes, the squats made my inner thighs explode. Which ****ed up
> > my clothes.
>
> Maybe its time to mix in back squats... I like the idea of having
> thighs that are too big for my pants.
>
> > And this why i still do squats. Not because of quad or ham/glute
> > development. I can get that from other exercises. It seems the
> > adductors contract hard to stabilize the leg. I think.
> >
> >> Another difference is that I now deadlift far more often than I
> >> squatted. I deadlift up to 5 times a week. So it's possible that
> >> it is the increase in frequency that triggered the growth.
> >
> > Could be. 5 times is a LOT, though...
>
> Yes, but it's just two sets per day (five reps), and the second set is
> only 90% of the first. The overall volume isn't very much, but there
> is plenty of stimulus.
>
> You can do an exercise 5 days a week if you are only going to do ten
> reps per day.
>
> >>> You said it yourself, its relatively easy for you to deadlift,
> >>> right?
> >
> >> I believe that I have good levers for deadlifting. Yes.
> >
> > Which would dicrate harder contractions during squats, but this
> > theorry doesnt seem to apply to you.
>
> No, it probably does. I think that it is entirely possible that I
> didn't give squats enough of a chance.
>
> >>> BTW, i wasnt dissing deadlifts as a *general* exercise. They are
> >>> just crappy when it comes to leg development...
> >
> >> I beg to differ. Actually, I don't beg, I just differ :).
> >
> >> @#$!! that's a goofy saying.
> >
> >> Someday I'll have to try a program where I front squat on a regular
> >> basis and see what that does to my legs.
> >
> > Front squats are *excellent* quad builders. Good for inner thighs as
> > well.
>
> Good, I like front squats better. I find them to be more comfortable
> than back squats, and it's easier to get the form down (for me).
> Plus, I can still feel like I am prepping for an Oly contest instead
> of just trying to get big quads.
>
> >> It's possible that if I used a high frequency program with squats
> >> that I would see even more results.
> >
> > Think so, yes.
>
> Thanks again for making me think. I appreciate it.
>
> Jason

Jason, whatever Pete has to say or advice to offer, take it mate. He knows
his "stuff".
Plus he has a great sense of humour - which I miss when he doesn't post
*groan*

Larry Hodges
September 21st 06, 07:34 AM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "Larry Hodges" > schreef:
>
>>> Larry, what exactly does a deadlift do?
>>> It gives knee and hip joint extension, while you hold the barbell in
>>> your hands.
>>> Squats and leg-presses also give that. The fact that you hold the bar in
>>> your hands is not an advantage, its a limiting factor. You create weak
>>> links.
>
>> While I agree that there are other exercises that do that, we both know
>> that changing things up is the key.
>
> No.
>
> Progressive resistance is the key to growth. Muscle confusiuon is
> BULL****.
> Yes, thats right. BULL**** !!!
>
> The only thing you need to change are the weights, sets and reps.

The advantage I see in a compound lift is efficiency. You could do three
machines. Or...do DLs. But why do you refer to it as "confusion". It's
confusion to teach your body and nervous system to work in sync? I don't
understand that logic. Maybe from a BBing perspective. I don't consider
myself a BBer I guess. Maybe a fitness buff? I don't know what I am, and
kind of like it that way.

>> Ok, don't do DLs this week, but rather the things you suggest. Great.
>> But to make a blanket statement that DLs are a waste of time? That's
>> where you're wrong.
>
> Because i didnt say that.
> I was talking about leg development and exercises for leg develoipment.

Gluts aren't considered part of the leg?

> The deadlift isnt just one of the best.

Ok. But your point to the OP was that they were worthless. That's what I
took issue with. And you well know that the key to progress is rotating
exercises in and out of your workout. You left him with the impression that
he should never DL because it has no benefit for leg development. DLs hit
hams and gluts. They are a mainstay compound lift for a reason. Obviously,
they do something.

> But even if i did, which i didnt, tell me what the benefits of the
> deadlifts are if a certain person allready squats and rows. Help me out
> here.

Gluts, hams and low back. You're welcome.

>> Also, I use wrist straps to supplement my grip. Not all the time becasue
>> I want my grip to get stronger. But I use them toward the end of my
>> lifts so I don't have to limit my lifts because of my grip.
>
>>>> 2. Name something better for gluts?
>
>>> Squats, powerlift style, or leg presses, feet as high as possible on the
>>> sledge.
>
>> Again, these are great for gluts. But...so is DL. Why not rotate it in?
>
> For glutes? Sure.
> For leg development, no. And again, doing squats PL style will hit the
> glutes very hard.
> Or even weightlifting style.

If gluts aren't part of the leg, what are they? How about hams? I'll give
you that low back isn't. You got me there.

>>>> 3. DL are one of the best compound lifts out there. It works the
>>>> entire body, and is a core lift for legs.
>
>>> Yes, but the problem is, they work TOO much simultanuously. And if your
>>> lower arms are relatively weak, the grip fails before the quads and
>>> glutes get a nice workout. Or the lower back fails. With squats, that
>>> problem is reduced, and with leg-presses, its even MORE reduced.
>
>> Bull**** answer Pete, and you know it.
>
> YOU are gonna tell me what i know?
> BTW, we were talking about leg development. I am right.

Yes. But I guess gluts aren't legs. Of hams.

>> While there are times you want to focus on specific muscles, there are
>> times you want the compound lifts.
>
> Squats and leg presses, even hacks, are also compound lifts.

Agreed.

>> Why?
>
> Well, why?
>
>> Because they DO incorporate the entire body and build it as a unit.
>
> And YOU are assuming that because the lower arms, upper arms, delts and
> traps tens up, the leg legs are stimulated to grow more?
>
> Thats BULL**** Latty, and obviously, you DONT know that!
>
> O, wait, i forgot!
> Its that HUGE increase in testosterone and GH from doing the "big"
> exercises?
>
>> There's more to lifting that pretty boy muscles Pete.
>
> Yeah...thanks for pointing that out to *me.*
> Many times, people in the gym have accused for not only for training like
> a powerlifter, but that that i ended up looking like one.
>
>>>> 3. Leg extensions are murder on your knees. At the VERY least, if you
>>>> are going to recommend them, you need to caution the user about going
>>>> too heavy.
>
>>> And use a limited ROM. Move for about 60 degrees. NEVER more then 90.
>
>>>> Dude, I thought you knew your stuff.
>
>>> Dont worry. I do.
>
>>>> Obviously you're a noob.
>
>>> Eh... no.
>
>>>>Your advice sucks major ass here...
>
>>> Well, if thats your opinion.
>
>>>> you really ****ed up on this one.
>
>>> Really?
>>> Do you really think the Pro BBers got huge because they deadlift?
>
>> Oh, what-the-****-ever.
>
> Good answer.
>
>
>> Tell that to Hobbes.
>
> Keith, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.
>
>> Tell him DLs are worthless.
>
> Ehhh... Keith is a powerlifter, Larry.
> And again, i never said they were worthless. I was speaking wrt
> development of the quads/hams.
>
>> While you're at it, tell Hanson.
>
> John, lots of bodybuilders never deadlift.
>
>> I'm sure they didn't get the memo.
>
> They sure as hell got it now!
>
>>> Think Larry, THINK !!!
>>> Dont go along whit everything that has been written *here.*
>
>> I don't.
>
> Okay.
> So enlighten me then.
>
> At this moment, i stopped doing deads years ago, and i used them to bring
> out my traps and spinals.
>
> At this moment, i still squat, row, overhead press, curl.
>
> Which muscles are not being hit, or, are underdevloped because i stopped
> doind Dls?
>
> Explain this in detail to me. Please. If you would be so kind, and have
> the time , of course.
> Teach me something i obviously dont know, and missed on all these years.
> Help me to understand this complex matter.
>
>> However, I have learned a lot here and won't discount that. Maybe you're
>> the one who is being too quick to toss out the advice given here?
>
> I think so.
> So, help me out then.
>
> Explain to me which muscles are being hit by the deadlift, if the person
> does the beforementioned exercises.
>
>>>> maybe not.
>
>>> Thats the reason i didnt kill-file Freides. Cool.
>
>> Cool. I've got you on my probationary kill-file list mister. Better
>> watch your step.
>
> Ehhh... yeah, i will watch my step, Larry. Thanks for putting up with me
> all this time!
>
>> I'll bring you up for review next week.
>
> "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
> Haha!
>
> ----
> Pete


This was fun. Let's do it again sometime.

-Larry

Pez D Spencer
September 21st 06, 07:50 AM
i refuse to be drawn into an argument marinated in circular logic.

Larry Hodges
September 21st 06, 08:26 AM
"Pez D Spencer" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>i refuse to be drawn into an argument marinated in circular logic.

I hope you did your DLs on your prayer mat today.

Actually, I just did leg press for legs. No DLs. Don't tell Pete. I'll
never hear the end of it.

-Larry

Uncle Bob
September 21st 06, 08:59 AM
"Larry Hodges" > schreef:

> Actually, I just did leg press for legs. No DLs. Don't tell Pete. I'll
> never hear the end of it.

Ha!

I just woke up. Gotcha!

----
Pete

Charles
September 21st 06, 09:37 AM
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:12:16 +0200, "Pete" >
wrote:

>"rev" > schreef:
>
>> To the point (and after lifting for 2.5 years and knowing that the leg
>> extension can be damaging for knees, especially going over 90 degrees, I
>> feel silly to have to ask) the 60 degrees, is that angle measured from
>> legs fully extended or the opposite?
>
>From full extension, 180 degrees, lowered to 120 degrees. Perhaps 105
>degrees or even 90, not more.
>
>Doing extensions with an ROM of 60-75 degrees gave me pleasing results,
>without knee problems.
>

I think both Pete and his alter ego "Uncle Bob" are a tad confused
about ranges of movement (ROM's)!

The ROM of a particular bone (you described the humerus yesterday) has
nothing to do with the ROM of a specific muscle employed in a
weight-lifting exercise.

I explained the difference using the 'pecs' employed in the Bench
Press as an example, where the 200 degree ROM you suggested, was to
say the least, somewhat fanciful!

HTH! ;o)

Pete
September 21st 06, 09:52 AM
"Pete" > schreef:

> "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"

The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
course...)

It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.

----
Pete

Pete
September 21st 06, 10:16 AM
"Curt James" > schreef:

>> > <snip> I've got long arms and a very long torso which
>> > makes it easier for me to deadlift than to squat.

>> That doesnt make sense.

> Why not?

Because i meant something else.

If deadlifts are relatively easy, because of long arms and a long torso,
logic dictates that the muscles connected to both knee and hip joints
contract harder, and therefore, grow more, during squats then (well,
after...) then deadlifts.

This didnt seem to be the case in Jasons case, hence my statement;

"That doesnt make sense" ;-O

> Similar to Jason, I've got long arms and a very long torso.
> And I also find it easier for me to deadlift than to squat. Easier as
> in I can deadlift more weight (290 lbs x 3 reps, 305 lbs x 2 reps) than
> I can squat (210 lbs. x 3 reps).

Yup.

And what do think will happen to your legs if you focussed, lets say, the
next 3 montyhs in using those same weights in back squats, or, perhaps even
better, front squats? ;-O

>> If its easy for you to perform deadlifts, and you have a
>> long torso, then your quadriceps have to work musch
>> harder during the squat then the deadlift. <snip>

> Although at first glance I agree with that statement, I don't believe I
> fully understand what you're saying here, Pete. But I will say that I
> suspect deads are easier for me with my looooong arms for the same
> reason benches are easy for the man with shooooort arms (and a deep
> chest) - less distance to move the weight.

Correct.
So YOU should do LOTS of benches, and skip the deadlift for a while!
Dont worry, your 1RM wont go down if you continue to squat and row.

> And, if I'm not mistaken, the ideal physique for the deadlift is one
> with very long arms and a very short torso. Ideally - with your legs
> fully extended - you'd be able to touch your knuckles to the floor as
> you grip the bar. ;o)

Yes, your build is ideal for deads and crappy for benches.

But... you are not entering, or planning to enter, a competition, are you?

If you would focus on ANYTHING that will develop the glutes, hams and quads,
besides the deadlift, and continue to row, i can assure you that your 1RM in
the dead will go UP, despitet he fact you didnt do them for a while.

Trust me.

> member of the unofficial and unauthorized Pete's Bodybuilding Advice
> fan club

Carefull!
You might ending up looking like a powerlifter ;-O

----
Pete

Pete
September 21st 06, 10:20 AM
What are you talking about?

"DZ" > schreef in bericht
...
> James Ahrens > wrote:
>> I agree, with the sports specific comment up to a point
>
> You agree with what comment? This style of posting might be
> appropriate in an email exchange where people involved remember
> previous details of the conversation. Some are capable to eventually
> learn that this style doesn't make a lot of sense in a newsgroup
> discussion, and then some are not. Let's hope that you are.
>
> DZ
>
>> , although, without wanting to be derogatory to him, T O'Neil is
>> hardly at the forefront of training methods.
>>
>> A lot of the club sport (like in any sport I presume) has a lot to
>> learn, training methods wise, but at the same time, they have realworld
>> issues, to balance a limited amount of available training time, with
>> actually getting stronger and faster.
>>
>> Anyway, we did do some sport specific weights, e.g. bench pull is a big
>> one, but not too much, actually we learnt a lot from the weightlifters
>> and their coaches, in terms of technique, as DL, power cleans, squats
>> etc were core exercises really.
>>
>> did combine weigths with a lot of exercise ball work, with weights etc,
>> as core stability was pretty key in avoiding injury, but again not too
>> much was sport specific.
>> Balance strengh I agree is the end goal, but as in a lot of sports,
>> kids pick up bad habits early on and then when (if) they egt to a high
>> level have to spend years correcting them. There is also the issue of
>> what type of balance, as depending on the sport you need an element of
>> strength, but sometimes also speed, strength endurance etc. so athletes
>> will get given 'sports' specific weights or isometric exercises
>>
>> rowed in Sydney, event 8+
>> (name in e-mail, JA are my two buddies, (J) Cracknell, and (C)hris
>> Ahrens)
>> (dont' really want to publicise that)
>>
>>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> James Ahrens wrote:
>>> > As you ask,
>>> >
>>> > My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
>>> > As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
>>> > well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
>>> > routines, curcuits etc.
>>> > and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in the
>>> > winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing machine
>>> > (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
>>> > compared to ergometers e.g.)
>>> > hope thats what you meant?
>>> >
>>> > James
>>> >
>>> > Bully wrote:
>>> >> James Ahrens wrote:
>>> >>> Pete,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
>>> >>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
>>> >>> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a
>>> >>> body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic
>>> >>> exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the poster
>>> >>> seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter
>>> >>> healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to
>>> >>> thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
>>> >>> extensions yourself.
>>> >>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> James
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Pete wrote:
>>> >>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
>>> >>>>> more exercises in the mix?
>>> >>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
>>> >>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
>>> >>>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Uh-OH !!!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Now you have done it !!!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
>>> >>>> Christ Sake !!!
>>> >>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
>>> >>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----
>>> >>>> Pete
>>> >>
>>> >> What exercise? What sport?
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Bully
>>> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>> >>
>>> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>>> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>>>
>>> It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry
>>> O'Neil]
>>> recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific. After all, you
>>> do
>>> need muscular balance regardless of which muscles are most important for
>>> your particular sport.! You rowed in the Olympics did you say? When?
>>> What
>>> event?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bully
>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>
>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

David Cohen
September 21st 06, 10:39 AM
Pete wrote:
> What are you talking about?

Probably dog poop.

David
>
> "DZ" > schreef
> > James Ahrens > wrote:
> >> I agree, with the sports specific comment up to a point
> >
> > You agree with what comment? This style of posting might be
> > appropriate in an email exchange where people involved remember
> > previous details of the conversation. Some are capable to eventually
> > learn that this style doesn't make a lot of sense in a newsgroup
> > discussion, and then some are not. Let's hope that you are.
> >
> > DZ
> >
> >> , although, without wanting to be derogatory to him, T O'Neil is
> >> hardly at the forefront of training methods.
> >>
> >> A lot of the club sport (like in any sport I presume) has a lot to
> >> learn, training methods wise, but at the same time, they have realworld
> >> issues, to balance a limited amount of available training time, with
> >> actually getting stronger and faster.
> >>
> >> Anyway, we did do some sport specific weights, e.g. bench pull is a big
> >> one, but not too much, actually we learnt a lot from the weightlifters
> >> and their coaches, in terms of technique, as DL, power cleans, squats
> >> etc were core exercises really.
> >>
> >> did combine weigths with a lot of exercise ball work, with weights etc,
> >> as core stability was pretty key in avoiding injury, but again not too
> >> much was sport specific.
> >> Balance strengh I agree is the end goal, but as in a lot of sports,
> >> kids pick up bad habits early on and then when (if) they egt to a high
> >> level have to spend years correcting them. There is also the issue of
> >> what type of balance, as depending on the sport you need an element of
> >> strength, but sometimes also speed, strength endurance etc. so athletes
> >> will get given 'sports' specific weights or isometric exercises
> >>
> >> rowed in Sydney, event 8+
> >> (name in e-mail, JA are my two buddies, (J) Cracknell, and (C)hris
> >> Ahrens)
> >> (dont' really want to publicise that)
> >>
> >>
> >> Bully wrote:
> >>> James Ahrens wrote:
> >>> > As you ask,
> >>> >
> >>> > My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
> >>> > As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
> >>> > well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
> >>> > routines, curcuits etc.
> >>> > and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in the
> >>> > winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing machine
> >>> > (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
> >>> > compared to ergometers e.g.)
> >>> > hope thats what you meant?
> >>> >
> >>> > James
> >>> >
> >>> > Bully wrote:
> >>> >> James Ahrens wrote:
> >>> >>> Pete,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
> >>> >>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do weights,
> >>> >>> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a
> >>> >>> body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic
> >>> >>> exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the poster
> >>> >>> seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter
> >>> >>> healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to
> >>> >>> thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
> >>> >>> extensions yourself.
> >>> >>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> James
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Pete wrote:
> >>> >>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
> >>> >>>>> more exercises in the mix?
> >>> >>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you can
> >>> >>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg curls
> >>> >>>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Uh-OH !!!
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Now you have done it !!!
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses for
> >>> >>>> Christ Sake !!!
> >>> >>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
> >>> >>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> ----
> >>> >>>> Pete
> >>> >>
> >>> >> What exercise? What sport?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Bully
> >>> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >>> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
> >>>
> >>> It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry
> >>> O'Neil]
> >>> recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific. After all, you
> >>> do
> >>> need muscular balance regardless of which muscles are most important for
> >>> your particular sport.! You rowed in the Olympics did you say? When?
> >>> What
> >>> event?
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Bully
> >>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>>
> >>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

BradandBrooks
September 21st 06, 10:43 AM
I agree, deads are back exercises. But some of us do have bad lower backs.
We need deads to keep the back strong, if for nothing else, than squats.
Plus, most people look at you like you're from the moon when you do them.
That's a nice plus. lol...

Brad

"Stu" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> funkdys wrote:
>> is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
>> a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
>
> Perhaps most people, but not all - the most I've ever deadlifted is
> 10kg under the most I've ever squatted and I've never been a
> particularly good (traditional style) deadlifter. Maybe because I have
> long legs - or maybe because it's easier to have someone spot you on
> squats than deads. :-)
>
> FWIW, exrx.net lists deadlifts under erector spinae and glutes - NOT
> quads or hams. (Except SLDLs which are different).
> I've never done deadlifts for leg development - I only do them on back
> day, which is 4 days after quads, and the day after hamstrings. I've
> never had difficulty in doing the lift because my legs were fatigued
> (though sore, yes, particularly in the hamstrings when getting into
> position). Oh, and I wish my glutes were -smaller-... too big from
> squats and leg press.
>
> I agree with Pete - deadlifts are of limited use in a bodybuilding
> program. Squats, leg press, hack squats, SLDLs, leg curls, good
> mornings are all far better for leg development. <rant> And don't
> neglect your hamstrings! A couple of sets of half arsed leg curls
> tacked onto the end of your quad workout isn't going to get you very
> far. I see people spend an hour on biceps and 5 minutes on hamstrings.
> Nothing looks worse on stage than a side pose with a lack of good leg
> biceps! </rant>
>
>
> Stu
>

Pete
September 21st 06, 11:03 AM
blow me

"David Cohen" > schreef in bericht
oups.com...
>
> Pete wrote:
>> What are you talking about?
>
> Probably dog poop.
>
> David
>>
>> "DZ" > schreef
>> > James Ahrens > wrote:
>> >> I agree, with the sports specific comment up to a point
>> >
>> > You agree with what comment? This style of posting might be
>> > appropriate in an email exchange where people involved remember
>> > previous details of the conversation. Some are capable to eventually
>> > learn that this style doesn't make a lot of sense in a newsgroup
>> > discussion, and then some are not. Let's hope that you are.
>> >
>> > DZ
>> >
>> >> , although, without wanting to be derogatory to him, T O'Neil is
>> >> hardly at the forefront of training methods.
>> >>
>> >> A lot of the club sport (like in any sport I presume) has a lot to
>> >> learn, training methods wise, but at the same time, they have
>> >> realworld
>> >> issues, to balance a limited amount of available training time, with
>> >> actually getting stronger and faster.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, we did do some sport specific weights, e.g. bench pull is a
>> >> big
>> >> one, but not too much, actually we learnt a lot from the weightlifters
>> >> and their coaches, in terms of technique, as DL, power cleans, squats
>> >> etc were core exercises really.
>> >>
>> >> did combine weigths with a lot of exercise ball work, with weights
>> >> etc,
>> >> as core stability was pretty key in avoiding injury, but again not too
>> >> much was sport specific.
>> >> Balance strengh I agree is the end goal, but as in a lot of sports,
>> >> kids pick up bad habits early on and then when (if) they egt to a high
>> >> level have to spend years correcting them. There is also the issue of
>> >> what type of balance, as depending on the sport you need an element of
>> >> strength, but sometimes also speed, strength endurance etc. so
>> >> athletes
>> >> will get given 'sports' specific weights or isometric exercises
>> >>
>> >> rowed in Sydney, event 8+
>> >> (name in e-mail, JA are my two buddies, (J) Cracknell, and (C)hris
>> >> Ahrens)
>> >> (dont' really want to publicise that)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bully wrote:
>> >>> James Ahrens wrote:
>> >>> > As you ask,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > My sport used to be rowing (am retired now, 3 years),
>> >>> > As to which exercise, I presume you mean, weights and/or aerobic,
>> >>> > well with weights basically, strength routines, stregth retention
>> >>> > routines, curcuits etc.
>> >>> > and aerobic, apart from rowing itself, a lot of cross training in
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > winter, cycling, cross country skiing, and the dreaded rowing
>> >>> > machine
>> >>> > (cycling etc, enabled us to do longer sessions below threshold,
>> >>> > compared to ergometers e.g.)
>> >>> > hope thats what you meant?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > James
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Bully wrote:
>> >>> >> James Ahrens wrote:
>> >>> >>> Pete,
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> I bow to the body builders sacred knowledge.
>> >>> >>> Strangely, and maybe I'm in the minority here, I used to do
>> >>> >>> weights,
>> >>> >>> primarily in the function of a sport I was part of, and not as a
>> >>> >>> body builder. But it was a lot of weights,and a lot of aerobic
>> >>> >>> exercise. OK the post was about leg development, but the poster
>> >>> >>> seemed to be recently introduced to weightlifting, to get fitter
>> >>> >>> healthier etc, (and bigger presumably), and may not refer to
>> >>> >>> thimself as a bodybuilder (not wishing to put words in his mouth)
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Anyway, as I recall, didn't you recommend Leg press and leg
>> >>> >>> extensions yourself.
>> >>> >>> As for the looming whiny posts, well...you can't please everyone.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> James
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Pete wrote:
>> >>> >>>> "James Ahrens" > schreef:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>> You mentioned using primarily squat, dead lift etc. Do you add
>> >>> >>>>> more exercises in the mix?
>> >>> >>>>> Having a main group of big muscle exercises is good, but you
>> >>> >>>>> can
>> >>> >>>>> supplement your workout with Leg extensions, Leg press, Leg
>> >>> >>>>> curls
>> >>> >>>>> etc. during your lower body sessions.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Uh-OH !!!
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Now you have done it !!!
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> You mentioned leg curls and leg extensions... and leg presses
>> >>> >>>> for
>> >>> >>>> Christ Sake !!!
>> >>> >>>> Dont you know that Pro-Bodybuilders NEVER do leg presses or
>> >>> >>>> extensions ?!?!?!?
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> Prepare for some whiny posts from some regulars here James!
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> ----
>> >>> >>>> Pete
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> What exercise? What sport?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> --
>> >>> >> Bully
>> >>> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind
>> >>> >> don't
>> >>> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>> >>>
>> >>> It sure is. I've always found the weights exercise they [e.g. Terry
>> >>> O'Neil]
>> >>> recommend for rowers to be a little too sports specific. After all,
>> >>> you
>> >>> do
>> >>> need muscular balance regardless of which muscles are most important
>> >>> for
>> >>> your particular sport.! You rowed in the Olympics did you say? When?
>> >>> What
>> >>> event?
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Bully
>> >>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>> >>>
>> >>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> >>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>

Hobbes
September 21st 06, 03:27 PM
In article m>,
"Stu" > wrote:

> funkdys wrote:
> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
>
> Perhaps most people, but not all - the most I've ever deadlifted is
> 10kg under the most I've ever squatted and I've never been a
> particularly good (traditional style) deadlifter. Maybe because I have
> long legs - or maybe because it's easier to have someone spot you on
> squats than deads. :-)

Or its easier to do a quarter squat and call it a squat?

I don't know many people who can do a full squat (touch their calves and
hamstrings at the bottom) with more weight than they can deadlift. Some
powerlifters squat more than they deadlift, but the powerlifting squat
is really a half squat and all the supportive gear distorts the squat
number.

--
Keith

mike
September 21st 06, 03:32 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "Pete" > schreef:
>
> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
> course...)
>
> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>
> ----
> Pete
>
Bareback Mountain?

funkdys
September 21st 06, 04:36 PM
minnehaha wrote:
> funkdys wrote:
> > Hello all:
> >
> > I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks now.
> > My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall. I've
> > changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that objective.
> > While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase in strenth, a
> > visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't feel any visible
> > advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry legs and am anxious to
> > change that.
> >
> > I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on earlier
> > guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work out legs
> > twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but the
> > measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where I'm now
> > squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and calf raise
> > is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people can lift more in
> > a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find myself compromising my
> > form if I increase the weight on my deadlift any more rapidly.
> >
> > What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
> > overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are there
> > tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing weight?
> >
> > As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
> >
>
>
> I'm surprised amidst all the bickering over which exercises to do,
> nobody brought up your diet. You cryptically mention that you "changed
> your diet to support your objectives" but what exactly does that mean?
> As a beginner, the routine you mentioned should result in at least
> *some* gain in size. So, what are you eating?

I'm a vegetarian so that makes things slightly challenging. The
staples are legumes, grains, pulses and vegetables. I'm continuing my
normal diet (about 1500 to 1700 calories/day) and supplementing that
with whey protien (140 calories, 27 gms of protien) and increased milk
consumption (add'l 24 oz/day). I've also been taking a power bar or
cliff bar post work out and the whey protien prior to work out. So
I've increased my caloric consumption by about 500/day, increased
protien intake by about 50gms/day and have gained about 4 lbs over the
last 12 weeks. I weigh 143lbs (5'10", male, 40 y.o, 17% BF)

Any suggestions with respect to diet (other then "start eating meat,
man!")?

Thanks.

Bully
September 21st 06, 04:43 PM
funkdys wrote:
> minnehaha wrote:
>> funkdys wrote:
>>> Hello all:
>>>
>>> I've been going to the gym 3 to 4 times a week for about 12 weeks
>>> now. My objective is to gain weight by adding muscle mass overall.
>>> I've changed my diet (and protein consumption) to support that
>>> objective. While I've gained a few pounds, a perceptible increase
>>> in strenth, a visible change in arms, shoulders and chest, I don't
>>> feel any visible advancement at all in my legs. I've rather wiry
>>> legs and am anxious to change that.
>>>
>>> I'm primarily doing squats, dead lifts and calf raises based on
>>> earlier guidance on this forum. 2 sets each - 6 to 8 reps - work
>>> out legs twice a week. I can tell that my strength has gone up but
>>> the measurements haven't changed any. I have worked up to where
>>> I'm now squatting my body weight, dead lift is about 85% of BW, and
>>> calf raise is about 80% of BW. I recall reading that most people
>>> can lift more in a deadlift than they can squat. However, I find
>>> myself compromising my form if I increase the weight on my deadlift
>>> any more rapidly.
>>>
>>> What's a reasonable time frame to expect any visible gains in legs
>>> overall? Should I be altering the program described above? Are
>>> there tricks to ensuring good form for deadlifts when increasing
>>> weight?
>>>
>>> As always, your experienced insights are much appreciated.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'm surprised amidst all the bickering over which exercises to do,
>> nobody brought up your diet. You cryptically mention that you
>> "changed your diet to support your objectives" but what exactly does
>> that mean? As a beginner, the routine you mentioned should result in
>> at least *some* gain in size. So, what are you eating?
>
> I'm a vegetarian so that makes things slightly challenging. The
> staples are legumes, grains, pulses and vegetables. I'm continuing my
> normal diet (about 1500 to 1700 calories/day) and supplementing that
> with whey protien (140 calories, 27 gms of protien) and increased milk
> consumption (add'l 24 oz/day). I've also been taking a power bar or
> cliff bar post work out and the whey protien prior to work out. So
> I've increased my caloric consumption by about 500/day, increased
> protien intake by about 50gms/day and have gained about 4 lbs over the
> last 12 weeks. I weigh 143lbs (5'10", male, 40 y.o, 17% BF)
>
> Any suggestions with respect to diet (other then "start eating meat,
> man!")?
>
> Thanks.

How many grams of protein/day are you getting?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Pete
September 21st 06, 05:50 PM
"mike" > schreef:

>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"

>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
>> course...)

>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.

> Bareback Mountain?

Nope.

First hint;

Its a movie from the eigthies.

----
Pete

funkdys
September 21st 06, 06:07 PM
Bully wrote:
> funkdys wrote:
> > minnehaha wrote:
> >> funkdys wrote:
> >>> Hello all:
> >>>
<snip...>

> > Any suggestions with respect to diet (other then "start eating meat,
> > man!")?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> How many grams of protein/day are you getting?
>

between 70 and 90 gms on most days.

> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Bully
September 21st 06, 06:58 PM
funkdys wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> funkdys wrote:
>>> minnehaha wrote:
>>>> funkdys wrote:
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>>
> <snip...>
>
>>> Any suggestions with respect to diet (other then "start eating meat,
>>> man!")?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> How many grams of protein/day are you getting?
>>
>
> between 70 and 90 gms on most days.
>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

And this after you have increased your protein intake!!! Therein, probably,
lies your problem. What bodyweight are you?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

David
September 21st 06, 07:54 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "mike" > schreef:
>
>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
>>> course...)
>
>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>
>> Bareback Mountain?
>
> Nope.
>
> First hint;
>
> Its a movie from the eigthies.

Debbie Does Dallas

Pete
September 21st 06, 09:33 PM
"David" > schreef:

>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"

>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
>>>> course...)

>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.

>>> Bareback Mountain?

>> Nope.

>> First hint;

>> Its a movie from the eigthies.

> Debbie Does Dallas

For Christ Sake, David...

Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!

----
Pete

Pete
September 21st 06, 09:40 PM
"Bully" > schreef:

>> between 70 and 90 gms on most days.

> And this after you have increased your protein intake!!! Therein,
> probably, lies your problem. What bodyweight are you?

I agree with Bully.

Double your protein consumption.
BTW, Bully, i cleaned up your mess... next time, do it yourself!

----
Pete

David
September 21st 06, 09:51 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "David" > schreef:
>
>>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
>>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
>>>>> course...)
>
>>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>
>>>> Bareback Mountain?
>
>>> Nope.
>
>>> First hint;
>
>>> Its a movie from the eigthies.
>
>> Debbie Does Dallas
>
> For Christ Sake, David...
>
> Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!

sorry . . . I didn't read the whole thread! - still .. it was a pretty good
movie

Bully
September 21st 06, 10:06 PM
What mess might that be?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Larry Hodges
September 21st 06, 10:16 PM
"David" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Pete" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "David" > schreef:
>>
>>>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>>
>>>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name,
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> course...)
>>
>>>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>>
>>>>> Bareback Mountain?
>>
>>>> Nope.
>>
>>>> First hint;
>>
>>>> Its a movie from the eigthies.
>>
>>> Debbie Does Dallas
>>
>> For Christ Sake, David...
>>
>> Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!
>
> sorry . . . I didn't read the whole thread! - still .. it was a pretty
> good movie

Or the sequel, Debbie does Mr. Ed. Haven't seen in personally, but Cohen
says it's good. Said he saw it at a Democratic fund raiser. Raised a lot
of money too.

-Larry

Curt James
September 21st 06, 10:30 PM
Pete wrote:
> "Bully" schreef:

funkydys wrote re his daily protein consumption

> >> between 70 and 90 gms on most days.
>
> > And this after you have increased your protein intake!!! Therein,
> > probably, lies your problem. What bodyweight are you?
>
> I agree with Bully.

And I'll echo them both. Most recommend a gram per pound of bodyweight.
You said you weigh 143?

> Double your protein consumption.

At least, right?

> BTW, Bully, i cleaned up your mess... next time, do it yourself!

> Pete

--
Curt

Curt James
September 21st 06, 10:42 PM
Bully wrote:
> What mess might that be?

minnehaha included in your attribution in the post Pete was commenting
on (elsewhere in this ng), but no text that could have actually been
attributed to minnehaha within that post. A double posting of your .sig
file (one within quoted text, of course, but...). And, I dunno. (I
suspect he's on edge from the seemingly neverending poop thread.)

-=ducks, runs, slips in dog poop AGAIN=-

Dadnabit!*

> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

*And, yes, Dadnabit may be replaced by Dagnabit if you're so inclined.
Tia.

--
Curt

mike
September 22nd 06, 12:02 AM
"David" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Pete" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "mike" > schreef:
> >
> >>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
> >
> >>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
> >>> course...)
> >
> >>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
> >>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
> >
> >> Bareback Mountain?
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > First hint;
> >
> > Its a movie from the eigthies.
>
> Debbie Does Dallas
>
Hey David, he says he will be a good BOY from now to Mr Hodges. So cant be
Debbie...maybe "David Does Dallas" ? hehehe

mike
September 22nd 06, 12:04 AM
"Larry Hodges" > wrote in message
...
> "David" > wrote in message
> u...
> >
> > "Pete" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "David" > schreef:
> >>
> >>>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
> >>
> >>>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name,
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> course...)
> >>
> >>>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
> >>>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
> >>
> >>>>> Bareback Mountain?
> >>
> >>>> Nope.
> >>
> >>>> First hint;
> >>
> >>>> Its a movie from the eigthies.
> >>
> >>> Debbie Does Dallas
> >>
> >> For Christ Sake, David...
> >>
> >> Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!
> >
> > sorry . . . I didn't read the whole thread! - still .. it was a pretty
> > good movie
>
> Or the sequel, Debbie does Mr. Ed. Haven't seen in personally, but Cohen
> says it's good. Said he saw it at a Democratic fund raiser. Raised a lot
> of money too.
>
> -Larry
>
Bet it "raised" more than just money! Ddin't you hear thre fly-buttons
hitting the ceiling?

Stu
September 22nd 06, 01:55 AM
Hobbes wrote:
> Or its easier to do a quarter squat and call it a squat?

Good call, but not the case for me.

> I don't know many people who can do a full squat (touch their calves and
> hamstrings at the bottom) with more weight than they can deadlift. Some

Ok, my heaviest squats are not FULL squats, but they are still below
parallel. I always squat deep.


Stu

Funk Dys
September 22nd 06, 05:54 AM
Got it. I'm assuming whey protein will work. Will post an update in a few
weeks.

Thanks.

"Curt James" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Pete wrote:
>> "Bully" schreef:
>
> funkydys wrote re his daily protein consumption
>
>> >> between 70 and 90 gms on most days.
>>
>> > And this after you have increased your protein intake!!! Therein,
>> > probably, lies your problem. What bodyweight are you?
>>
>> I agree with Bully.
>
> And I'll echo them both. Most recommend a gram per pound of bodyweight.
> You said you weigh 143?
>
>> Double your protein consumption.
>
> At least, right?
>
>> BTW, Bully, i cleaned up your mess... next time, do it yourself!
>
>> Pete
>
> --
> Curt
>

Bully
September 22nd 06, 06:57 AM
Stu wrote:
> Hobbes wrote:
>> Or its easier to do a quarter squat and call it a squat?
>
> Good call, but not the case for me.
>
>> I don't know many people who can do a full squat (touch their calves
>> and hamstrings at the bottom) with more weight than they can
>> deadlift. Some
>
> Ok, my heaviest squats are not FULL squats, but they are still below
> parallel. I always squat deep.
>
>
> Stu

Squats that aren't FULL squats aren't, by definition, DEEP !!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Bully
September 22nd 06, 08:01 AM
Curt James wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> What mess might that be?
>
> minnehaha included in your attribution in the post Pete was commenting
> on (elsewhere in this ng), but no text that could have actually been
> attributed to minnehaha within that post. A double posting of your
> .sig file (one within quoted text, of course, but...). And, I dunno.
> (I suspect he's on edge from the seemingly neverending poop thread.)
>

Right..

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

David
September 22nd 06, 10:37 AM
"Larry Hodges" > wrote in message
...
> "David" > wrote in message
> u...
>>
>> "Pete" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "David" > schreef:
>>>
>>>>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>>>
>>>>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name,
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> course...)
>>>
>>>>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>>>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>>>
>>>>>> Bareback Mountain?
>>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>>> First hint;
>>>
>>>>> Its a movie from the eigthies.
>>>
>>>> Debbie Does Dallas
>>>
>>> For Christ Sake, David...
>>>
>>> Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!
>>
>> sorry . . . I didn't read the whole thread! - still .. it was a pretty
>> good movie
>
> Or the sequel, Debbie does Mr. Ed. Haven't seen in personally, but Cohen
> says it's good. Said he saw it at a Democratic fund raiser. Raised a lot
> of money too.

Yes will have to find the sequel - will try for this weekend - (after all
the resident expert on soft porn has given the thumbs up)

>
> -Larry
>

David
September 22nd 06, 10:38 AM
"mike" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> u...
>>
>> "Pete" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "mike" > schreef:
>> >
>> >>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>> >
>> >>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name,
>> >>> of
>> >>> course...)
>> >
>> >>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>> >>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>> >
>> >> Bareback Mountain?
>> >
>> > Nope.
>> >
>> > First hint;
>> >
>> > Its a movie from the eigthies.
>>
>> Debbie Does Dallas
>>
> Hey David, he says he will be a good BOY from now to Mr Hodges. So cant be
> Debbie...maybe "David Does Dallas" ? hehehe
>
Well . . . .I could consider that if you add the word 'cheerleaders' to the
title

Curt James
September 22nd 06, 09:16 PM
Pete wrote:
> "Curt James" schreef:
>
> >> > <snip> I've got long arms and a very long torso which
> >> > makes it easier for me to deadlift than to squat.
>
> >> That doesnt make sense.
>
> > Why not?
>
> Because i meant something else.
>
> If deadlifts are relatively easy, because of long arms and a long torso,
> logic dictates that the muscles connected to both knee and hip joints
> contract harder, and therefore, grow more, during squats then (well,
> after...) then deadlifts.
>
> This didnt seem to be the case in Jasons case, hence my statement;
>
> "That doesnt make sense" ;-O

Okay.

> > Similar to Jason, I've got long arms and a very long torso.
> > And I also find it easier for me to deadlift than to squat. Easier as
> > in I can deadlift more weight (290 lbs x 3 reps, 305 lbs x 2 reps) than
> > I can squat (210 lbs. x 3 reps).
>
> Yup.
>
> And what do think will happen to your legs if you focussed, lets say, the
> next 3 montyhs in using those same weights in back squats, or, perhaps even
> better, front squats? ;-O

I'm looking forward to 225 lbs. on squats, but I don't see 290 lbs.
happening in the next three months. Noooooo. :oS

[...]
> > suspect deads are easier for me with my looooong arms for the same
> > reason benches are easy for the man with shooooort arms (and a deep
> > chest) - less distance to move the weight.
>
> Correct.
> So YOU should do LOTS of benches, and skip the deadlift for a while!
> Dont worry, your 1RM wont go down if you continue to squat and row.

Well, I'm going to pass on that advice as I'm trying to gain size and,
as another MFW patron mentioned, the ladies love the glutes anyway...
so I'm concentrating on squats and deadlifts.

[...]
> Yes, your build is ideal for deads and crappy for benches.

heh

> But... you are not entering, or planning to enter, a competition, are you?

Newp. Although there /were/ some in the last local bodybuilding contest
I attended who apparently felt that by simply slipping into a pair of
Speedo swimming trunks that they were automatically "bodybuilders". Uh,
guys, maybe you could add some tan and, oh, how about actually lift a
weight or diet for a few weeks? I would have compared favorably to
those fellows.

> If you would focus on ANYTHING that will develop the glutes, hams and quads,
> besides the deadlift, and continue to row, i can assure you that your 1RM in
> the dead will go UP, despitet he fact you didnt do them for a while.
>
> Trust me.

I do. I'm still not stopping deads in favor of benches right now,
though. I need to move some big (for me) weights. Eventually, I'll go
back to benching, but not right now.

> > member of the unofficial and unauthorized Pete's Bodybuilding Advice
> > fan club
>
> Carefull!
> You might ending up looking like a powerlifter ;-O

But not like Hanson!

> Pete

--
Curt

Larry Hodges
September 22nd 06, 09:21 PM
"Pete" > wrote in message
...
> "David" > schreef:
>
>>>>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>
>>>>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name, of
>>>>> course...)
>
>>>>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>>>>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>
>>>> Bareback Mountain?
>
>>> Nope.
>
>>> First hint;
>
>>> Its a movie from the eigthies.
>
>> Debbie Does Dallas
>
> For Christ Sake, David...
>
> Debbie is... she is... WHITE !!!
>
> ----
> Pete

Ok. It's been long enough. What movie is it?

-Larry

mike
September 23rd 06, 10:07 PM
"David" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "David" > wrote in message
> > u...
> >>
> >> "Pete" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > "mike" > schreef:
> >> >
> >> >>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
> >> >
> >> >>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another name,
> >> >>> of
> >> >>> course...)
> >> >
> >> >>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
> >> >>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
> >> >
> >> >> Bareback Mountain?
> >> >
> >> > Nope.
> >> >
> >> > First hint;
> >> >
> >> > Its a movie from the eigthies.
> >>
> >> Debbie Does Dallas
> >>
> > Hey David, he says he will be a good BOY from now to Mr Hodges. So cant
be
> > Debbie...maybe "David Does Dallas" ? hehehe
> >
> Well . . . .I could consider that if you add the word 'cheerleaders' to
the
> title
>
sorry David, an oversight on my part....hehe

David
September 24th 06, 05:29 AM
"mike" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "mike" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "David" > wrote in message
>> > u...
>> >>
>> >> "Pete" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > "mike" > schreef:
>> >> >
>> >> >>> > "I will be a good BOY from now on, Mr. Hodges!"
>> >> >
>> >> >>> The sentence above was used in a certain movie. (with another
>> >> >>> name,
>> >> >>> of
>> >> >>> course...)
>> >> >
>> >> >>> It would be dissapoionting if NO ONE here could point out which.
>> >> >>> If i dont see the name tomorrow, i will give a few hints.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Bareback Mountain?
>> >> >
>> >> > Nope.
>> >> >
>> >> > First hint;
>> >> >
>> >> > Its a movie from the eigthies.
>> >>
>> >> Debbie Does Dallas
>> >>
>> > Hey David, he says he will be a good BOY from now to Mr Hodges. So cant
> be
>> > Debbie...maybe "David Does Dallas" ? hehehe
>> >
>> Well . . . .I could consider that if you add the word 'cheerleaders' to
> the
>> title
>>
> sorry David, an oversight on my part....hehe
>
What about this one . . .David Does Debbie??