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Steve Freides
September 27th 06, 05:37 PM
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-breakfast18sep18,0,807516,full.story?coll=la-home-health

or

http://tinyurl.com/h8gu8

A pretty balanced article on the subject, IMHO. As DZ said, "Discuss!"

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides
September 27th 06, 06:54 PM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Freides > wrote:
>> http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-breakfast18sep18,0,807516,full.story?coll=la-home-health
>> or http://tinyurl.com/h8gu8
>> A pretty balanced article on the subject, IMHO. As DZ said,
>> "Discuss!"
>
> As the article says, one of the arguments for eating breakfast is
> something like "clinical studies show that people who skip, tend to
> binge later in the day". So a nutritionist's take on that seems to be
> that someone should do it just in case, following the prediction for a
> nameless statistical average. Indeed, how else would I find out? What
> if I try to skip breakfast, and overeat at dinner? Well, I suppose
> then I would die. This argument is pretty shameless. There is no need
> for a clinical study to know if I, personally, am going to binge.
>
> It is similar to a recurring "stupid human tricks" question of the
> type:
>
> "My husband is trying to 100se weight, so he bought a can of whey, and
> tried a shake this morning. Will this curb his appetite?"
>
> Well, it's already 8 pm, why don't you ask HIM!

One of the things they mention later in the article is the classic "post
hoc ergo propter hoc" argument that if people who skip breakfast are
more likely to be obese, skipping breakfast must be the cause of being
more obese. They then go on to say that typically it is people who skip
breakfast who also tend to lead a less healthy lifestyle overall.
Here's a quote from the article, from the sub-section titled "Shaky
Science"

"But the association between skipping breakfast and being overweight
went away when the researchers accounted for other factors that differed
among the girls, such as overall energy intake, physical activity levels
and parental education.

'My personal view is that breakfast skipping probably doesn't cause
health-compromising behavior,' says Dr. Anna Keski-Rahkonen, an
epidemiologist at the University of Helsinki, Finland, author of the
study of Finnish adolescents and their parents. 'It's probably really a
good indicator of a more unhealthy lifestyle.'"

You and I, Comrade, are not such unhealthy people. :)

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Ignoramus15447
September 27th 06, 07:00 PM
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:54:12 -0400, Steve Freides > wrote:
> "DZ" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Steve Freides > wrote:
>>> http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-breakfast18sep18,0,807516,full.story?coll=la-home-health
>>> or http://tinyurl.com/h8gu8
>>> A pretty balanced article on the subject, IMHO. As DZ said,
>>> "Discuss!"
>>
>> As the article says, one of the arguments for eating breakfast is
>> something like "clinical studies show that people who skip, tend to
>> binge later in the day". So a nutritionist's take on that seems to be
>> that someone should do it just in case, following the prediction for a
>> nameless statistical average. Indeed, how else would I find out? What
>> if I try to skip breakfast, and overeat at dinner? Well, I suppose
>> then I would die. This argument is pretty shameless. There is no need
>> for a clinical study to know if I, personally, am going to binge.
>>
>> It is similar to a recurring "stupid human tricks" question of the
>> type:
>>
>> "My husband is trying to 100se weight, so he bought a can of whey, and
>> tried a shake this morning. Will this curb his appetite?"
>>
>> Well, it's already 8 pm, why don't you ask HIM!
>
> One of the things they mention later in the article is the classic "post
> hoc ergo propter hoc" argument that if people who skip breakfast are
> more likely to be obese, skipping breakfast must be the cause of being
> more obese. They then go on to say that typically it is people who skip
> breakfast who also tend to lead a less healthy lifestyle overall.
> Here's a quote from the article, from the sub-section titled "Shaky
> Science"
>
> "But the association between skipping breakfast and being overweight
> went away when the researchers accounted for other factors that differed
> among the girls, such as overall energy intake, physical activity levels
> and parental education.

Um, if you take energy intake and physical activity into account, all
other factors must disappear. After all, we know that people get fat
from eating too much and exercising too little. The question is, does
skipping breakfast make people eat too much, or not.

i

> 'My personal view is that breakfast skipping probably doesn't cause
> health-compromising behavior,' says Dr. Anna Keski-Rahkonen, an
> epidemiologist at the University of Helsinki, Finland, author of the
> study of Finnish adolescents and their parents. 'It's probably really a
> good indicator of a more unhealthy lifestyle.'"
>
> You and I, Comrade, are not such unhealthy people. :)
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>

Steve Freides
September 27th 06, 07:12 PM
"Ignoramus15447" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:54:12 -0400, Steve Freides
> > wrote:
>> "DZ" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Steve Freides > wrote:
>>>> http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-breakfast18sep18,0,807516,full.story?coll=la-home-health
>>>> or http://tinyurl.com/h8gu8
>>>> A pretty balanced article on the subject, IMHO. As DZ said,
>>>> "Discuss!"
>>>
>>> As the article says, one of the arguments for eating breakfast is
>>> something like "clinical studies show that people who skip, tend to
>>> binge later in the day". So a nutritionist's take on that seems to
>>> be
>>> that someone should do it just in case, following the prediction for
>>> a
>>> nameless statistical average. Indeed, how else would I find out?
>>> What
>>> if I try to skip breakfast, and overeat at dinner? Well, I suppose
>>> then I would die. This argument is pretty shameless. There is no
>>> need
>>> for a clinical study to know if I, personally, am going to binge.
>>>
>>> It is similar to a recurring "stupid human tricks" question of the
>>> type:
>>>
>>> "My husband is trying to 100se weight, so he bought a can of whey,
>>> and
>>> tried a shake this morning. Will this curb his appetite?"
>>>
>>> Well, it's already 8 pm, why don't you ask HIM!
>>
>> One of the things they mention later in the article is the classic
>> "post
>> hoc ergo propter hoc" argument that if people who skip breakfast are
>> more likely to be obese, skipping breakfast must be the cause of
>> being
>> more obese. They then go on to say that typically it is people who
>> skip
>> breakfast who also tend to lead a less healthy lifestyle overall.
>> Here's a quote from the article, from the sub-section titled "Shaky
>> Science"
>>
>> "But the association between skipping breakfast and being overweight
>> went away when the researchers accounted for other factors that
>> differed
>> among the girls, such as overall energy intake, physical activity
>> levels
>> and parental education.
>
> Um,

Um?

> if you take energy intake and physical activity into account, all
> other factors must disappear.

Yes.

> After all, we know that people get fat
> from eating too much and exercising too little.

Yes.

> The question is, does
> skipping breakfast make people eat too much, or not.

Nothing _makes_ people eat anything. ("The Devil made me do it!")

So far as that article goes, skipping breakfast hasn't been shown to be
either bad or good, just different.

One other interesting speculation: it was theorized that the once-a-day
eaters, left to their own devices, would probably lose weight because
consuming as many calories as they used to in a single meal was
difficult to do.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Ignoramus15447
September 27th 06, 08:18 PM
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:12:45 -0400, Steve Freides > wrote:
> "Ignoramus15447" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:54:12 -0400, Steve Freides
>> if you take energy intake and physical activity into account, all
>> other factors must disappear.
>
> Yes.
>
>> After all, we know that people get fat from eating too much and
>> exercising too little.
>
> Yes.
>
>> The question is, does skipping breakfast make people eat too much,
>> or not.
>
> Nothing _makes_ people eat anything. ("The Devil made me do it!")
>
> So far as that article goes, skipping breakfast hasn't been shown to be
> either bad or good, just different.
>
> One other interesting speculation: it was theorized that the once-a-day
> eaters, left to their own devices, would probably lose weight because
> consuming as many calories as they used to in a single meal was
> difficult to do.

I would expect that, yes, thuogh in the longer term people can adapt
to eating more in one meal.

i

Andrzej Rosa
September 27th 06, 09:41 PM
Dnia 2006-09-27 Ignoramus15447 napisał(a):
>> One other interesting speculation: it was theorized that the once-a-day
>> eaters, left to their own devices, would probably lose weight because
>> consuming as many calories as they used to in a single meal was
>> difficult to do.
>
> I would expect that, yes, thuogh in the longer term people can adapt
> to eating more in one meal.

From my experience, not so much. I've eaten two times a day for many
years. When I switched to eating three meals for social reasons I gained some
flab, which went promptly away after I turned back to old habits.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Steve Freides
September 28th 06, 04:55 AM
"Ignoramus15447" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:12:45 -0400, Steve Freides
> > wrote:
>> "Ignoramus15447" > wrote in
>> message
>> ...
>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:54:12 -0400, Steve Freides
>>> if you take energy intake and physical activity into account, all
>>> other factors must disappear.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> After all, we know that people get fat from eating too much and
>>> exercising too little.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> The question is, does skipping breakfast make people eat too much,
>>> or not.
>>
>> Nothing _makes_ people eat anything. ("The Devil made me do it!")
>>
>> So far as that article goes, skipping breakfast hasn't been shown to
>> be
>> either bad or good, just different.
>>
>> One other interesting speculation: it was theorized that the
>> once-a-day
>> eaters, left to their own devices, would probably lose weight because
>> consuming as many calories as they used to in a single meal was
>> difficult to do.
>
> I would expect that, yes, thuogh in the longer term people can adapt
> to eating more in one meal.

Yes, but talk to anyone who's eaten basically one meal per day for a
number of years. I will tell you, and everyone else I've talked to
about this has said the same thing, that as time passes, the amount you
eat at dinner gets closer and closer to what used to be dinner on a
3-meals-a-day plan, IOW, you start getting used to eating fewer calories
overall. I have known people at the beginning of a WD-type eating plan
to manage to gain weight but that sort of calorie consumption doesn't
seem to last.

Just my opinions based on what I've experienced myself and the handful
of others I know who eat this way.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> i
>

Andrzej Rosa
September 28th 06, 10:47 AM
Dnia 2006-09-27 DZ napisał(a):
> Andrzej Rosa > wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-09-27 Ignoramus15447 napisał(a):
>>> I would expect that, yes, thuogh in the longer term people can adapt
>>> to eating more in one meal.
>>
>> From my experience, not so much. I've eaten two times a day for many
>> years. When I switched to eating three meals for social reasons I gained some
>> flab, which went promptly away after I turned back to old habits.
>
> I think he means the physical capability of eating a lot at once that
> can be "trained for".

Probably true, but what counts is how it works out after a while.
Additionally, if someone skips a meal to lose fat he'll rather not make
a conscious attempt at increasing his ability at eating more food at
once.

From what was written in the article it looks like "skip breakfast" ->
"grow fat" is an artifact. They wrote there, that skipping breakfast
is the first step people do to control weight, so people with tendency
to grow fat must be overrepresented among breakfast skippers. Besides,
eating breakfast is still a mainstream health advice so people
leading a healthy life style must be overrepresented among breakfast
eaters.

There might be something else to it, though.

> OTOH there are plenty of people who can swallow
> a horse, even if they had a breakfast earlier. Just come over from
> Poland to visit any of ours all-you-can-eat buffets :-)

With a reason like that I'll get a visa with no problems at all. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

September 28th 06, 08:17 PM
DZ wrote:
> Steve Freides > wrote:
> > http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-breakfast18sep18,0,807516,full.story?coll=la-home-health
> > or http://tinyurl.com/h8gu8
> > A pretty balanced article on the subject, IMHO. As DZ said, "Discuss!"
>
> As the article says, one of the arguments for eating breakfast is
> something like "clinical studies show that people who skip, tend to
> binge later in the day". So a nutritionist's take on that seems to be
> that someone should do it just in case, following the prediction for a
> nameless statistical average. Indeed, how else would I find out? What
> if I try to skip breakfast, and overeat at dinner? Well, I suppose
> then I would die. This argument is pretty shameless. There is no need
> for a clinical study to know if I, personally, am going to binge.
>
> It is similar to a recurring "stupid human tricks" question of the
> type:
>
> "My husband is trying to 100se weight, so he bought a can of whey, and
> tried a shake this morning. Will this curb his appetite?"
>
> Well, it's already 8 pm, why don't you ask HIM!

I have always thought that it didn't particularly matter for many
people where and when during the day they get their calories so long as
they get the right number. I agree it would be a lot of calories to eat
just one big meal a day and that might cause you some nightmares if it
were at nighttime....but people are all different and eating breakfast
has to be a general rule. Our bodies are designed to survive fasting
and famine as well as overeating to a degree. I must say that I am not
a big eater, but in order to get my 2,000 cal a day, I usually eat
almost all of them between 7 and 11 at night, and never eat breakfast
and usually skip lunch as well. I work out in the late morning, and
just don't get hungry or tired with that routine. I don't think many
people would feel comfortable with my schedule, but the proof is that I
am healthy, somewhat muscular, very thin....and eat almost all my food
in the nighttime. dkw

Doug Freyburger
September 29th 06, 06:04 PM
wrote:
>
> I have always thought that it didn't particularly matter for many
> people where and when during the day they get their calories so long as
> they get the right number.

I have always thought that hard data beats stuff I dream up on my
own. The article applies to limited circumstances but it is hard data.
On the average folks who don't skip breakfast keep off prior losses
better than those who do skip breakfast.

> I agree it would be a lot of calories to eat
> just one big meal a day and that might cause you some nightmares if it
> were at nighttime....

Explaining the hard data is a different matter. Explanations are
stuff we dream up. So Occam's Razor applies - the simpler
explanation is more likely to be true than the more complex.

So I offer a simple explanation - An ounce of prevention is
worth a pound of cure.

For folks who do get hungry if they only eat one meal that
hunger gradually wears down their resolve. For folks who
don't get hungry if they only eat one meal, having breakfast
does no harm. Therefore having breakfast has almost no
downside. Anyone who isn't systematic should eat
breakfast because that gives the best odds. Anyone who
is systematic should start with eating breakfast and at some
point experiment with not eating breakfast.

> Our bodies are designed to survive fasting
> and famine as well as overeating to a degree.

And so we should try strategies that take that into account,
like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as
our starting point and then experiment from there to see what's
best for us as an individual.