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minnehaha
September 28th 06, 06:34 PM
Shute wrote:
> I started working out at a new gym. My old gym had a nice Hammer
> Stretch machine I could load up with weights and do military presses
> on. I could also rig up something with free weights using the squat
> rack if I wanted too.
>
> I thought this new place had the same thing. But it turns out it is a
> behind the head press instead of in front. All the guys I used to
> work out with says this messes up the rotator cuffs. When I looked
> around the only other thing they had was a bench with the barbell
> overhead. Except the weight is so high up you need a spotter to move
> the weight into position. The gym guy mentioned the smith machine but
> that has its own issues with moving the weight in the right direction.
>
> So any ideas what to do now. Should I live with the behind the head
> press? Should I switch over to barbells? Or should I just come up
> with something else for shoulder work.
>
>


Military presses are done standing with a barbell.

http://exrx.net/AnimatedEx/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress.gif

You should be able to set up your bar on the ground, clean the weight up
to your shoulders, do the presses, then put it back down when you're
done. Not that difficult really.

Pete
September 28th 06, 08:50 PM
"minnehaha" > schreef:

> Military presses are done standing with a barbell.

Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar while you
sit.
I really dont know, so help me out here...

> http://exrx.net/AnimatedEx/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress.gif

> You should be able to set up your bar on the ground, clean the weight up
> to your shoulders, do the presses, then put it back down when you're done.
> Not that difficult really.

Ehhh...no. Not THAT difficult.

But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...

----
Pete

Andrzej Rosa
September 28th 06, 10:22 PM
Dnia 2006-09-28 Pete napisał(a):
> "minnehaha" > schreef:
>
>> Military presses are done standing with a barbell.
>
> Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar while you
> sit.
> I really dont know, so help me out here...

Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which you
can no longer press.

>> http://exrx.net/AnimatedEx/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress.gif
>
>> You should be able to set up your bar on the ground, clean the weight up
>> to your shoulders, do the presses, then put it back down when you're done.
>> Not that difficult really.
>
> Ehhh...no. Not THAT difficult.
>
> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...

Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps to
keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance. Many typical gym
goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in time.
Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.

Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.

From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for example
medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do with a shoulder
press even that way.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Steve Freides
September 28th 06, 10:51 PM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2006-09-28 Pete napisał(a):
>> "minnehaha" > schreef:
>>
>>> Military presses are done standing with a barbell.
>>
>> Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar while
>> you
>> sit.
>> I really dont know, so help me out here...
>
> Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
> additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which you
> can no longer press.
>
>>> http://exrx.net/AnimatedEx/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress.gif
>>
>>> You should be able to set up your bar on the ground, clean the
>>> weight up
>>> to your shoulders, do the presses, then put it back down when you're
>>> done.
>>> Not that difficult really.
>>
>> Ehhh...no. Not THAT difficult.
>>
>> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...
>
> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps
> to
> keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance. Many typical gym
> goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in
> time.
> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.
>
> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.
>
> From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for example
> medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do with a
> shoulder
> press even that way.

Practicing the clean and press as opposed to just the press can be a
solid way to train, particularly for one-armed lifts where the clean
isn't that taxing but it can still help you press more.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Pete
September 29th 06, 06:24 AM
"Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:

>> Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar while you
>> sit.
>> I really dont know, so help me out here...

> Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
> additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which you
> can no longer press.

I have always done them sitting, even when i used free weights, without back
bproblems.

>> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...

> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps to
> keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance.

I dont consider cleans a "target" exercise.
For upper back, i prefer rows and pulldowns.

> Many typical gym
> goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in time.

Rows. And MORE rows!

> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.

I prefer to focus on one thing at the time. Its either back or shoulders.

> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.

Thats true, but only up until a point.
Cleans will get you nowhere near what rows can accomplish.
So you have to work the back separate anyway...

> From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for example
> medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do with a shoulder
> press even that way.

IMO, the weight during the clean goes up because of the acceleration, which
was caused by contracting the legs hard.
So that will take stress OFF the muscles, instead of increasing it. I NEVER
use momentum to move weights.

----
Pete

Andrzej Rosa
September 29th 06, 03:07 PM
Dnia 2006-09-29 Pete napisał(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:
>
>>> Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar while you
>>> sit.
>>> I really dont know, so help me out here...
>
>> Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
>> additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which you
>> can no longer press.
>
> I have always done them sitting, even when i used free weights, without back
> bproblems.

So I wrote potentially. If you do them seating, but on a chair with
back support, it is probably less dangerous than standing lift. If you
do them siting astride a bench they may be more dangerous (but not
necessarily).

>>> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...
>
>> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps to
>> keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance.
>
> I dont consider cleans a "target" exercise.
> For upper back, i prefer rows and pulldowns.

None the less, they target something.

>> Many typical gym
>> goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in time.
>
> Rows. And MORE rows!

Right. What if you have no time for shrugs?

There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-)

>> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.
>
> I prefer to focus on one thing at the time. Its either back or shoulders.

You are a bodybuilder, aren't you?

Not everyone is.

>> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.
>
> Thats true, but only up until a point.
> Cleans will get you nowhere near what rows can accomplish.

Rows will get you nowhere near what rows&cleans can accomplish.
Especially if you like to be able to move fast.

> So you have to work the back separate anyway...

No. You do not have to. It's just one of the ways to shave a cat.

Damn, I'm drunk because I did some physical work in Poland. Some
people will understand that one follows the other.

>> From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for example
>> medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do with a shoulder
>> press even that way.
>
> IMO, the weight during the clean goes up because of the acceleration, which
> was caused by contracting the legs hard.

Yeap. And also because you are *able* to contract muscles *hard*. I
like it.

I have some martial arts background. I like to be able to move fast.
No real reason apart from that is what I still like.

Lifting things slow will make you slow. Nuff said.

> So that will take stress OFF the muscles, instead of increasing it. I NEVER
> use momentum to move weights.

I do. There are many ways to shave a cat.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Pete
September 29th 06, 05:40 PM
"Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:

>>> Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
>>> additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which you
>>> can no longer press.

>> I have always done them sitting, even when i used free weights, without
>> back
>> bproblems.

> So I wrote potentially. If you do them seating, but on a chair with
> back support, it is probably less dangerous than standing lift. If you
> do them siting astride a bench they may be more dangerous (but not
> necessarily).

I do them with a seat that HAS back support, but i noticed that my back
barely touches the padding.
I am not sure wether the fact that the padding is there helps or not.

>>>> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...

>>> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps to
>>> keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance.

>> I dont consider cleans a "target" exercise.
>> For upper back, i prefer rows and pulldowns.

> None the less, they target something.

Eh.. i suspect the legs and glutes get some load. The lower arms, shoulders
and traps get some load.
These muscles are allready worked by other exercises. Which is why i fail to
see the point of doing them.

I am NOT saying that cl;eans have no effect, but whats the point of hitting
something that allready has been hit?

>>> Many typical gym
>>> goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in time.

>> Rows. And MORE rows!

> Right. What if you have no time for shrugs?

I NEVER do shrugs. I think the traps get a ton of work grom shoulder and
back work.
Shrugs are fine, but i never could get "in the groove" with that exercise.

> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-)

True.
But some ways are more directly ;-O

>>> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.

>> I prefer to focus on one thing at the time. Its either back or shoulders.

> You are a bodybuilder, aren't you?

I consider myself one. Other people have accused of looking, and working
like a powerlifter or weightlifter.
I like to use heavy weights to get bigger. Mostly compounds sdupplrmented
with isolation movements.
I work in the 5-8 range to build the muscles. At times, i work up to 10-12.
For several weeks, usually after a fast increase in strength.
I take plenty of rest between sets, and the concentricts are performed as
fast as possible, but WITHOUT the use of momentum. Because i work my way up
to 80-85%, it might appear that the weights move slow. But like i said, the
concentric is don as fast as possible, and the eccentric a little slower, to
keep stress on the muscles and to prevent injury.

NEVER had an injury, BTW...

> Not everyone is.

True.

>>> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.

Which is why some people like deadl;ifts, because they work the back and
legs.
But they are NOT the bst way to hit the legs. With these type of exercises,
something always lags behind. Always.

>> Thats true, but only up until a point.
>> Cleans will get you nowhere near what rows can accomplish.

> Rows will get you nowhere near what rows&cleans can accomplish.
> Especially if you like to be able to move fast.

Can you explain that?

Rows and pulldowns work the entire back.
I do cable rows with a very long range of motion, because i like to use the
spinals as one of the primary movers.
The other primary movers in the back are both the traps and lats, and the
muscles that work parallel with the traps and lats (teres and rhomboid)

Which muscles are developed when you do cleans?
Or do certain muscles get some kind of stimulii i am not aware of?

>> So you have to work the back separate anyway...

> No.

Yes.

> You do not have to.

Yes you do.

> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat.

If you want to develop the back, select exercises where the back is the
primary, or at at least a dominant mover.
If you select an exercise for general strength, you will GET general
strength.

NOT maximum development.

> Damn, I'm drunk because I did some physical work in Poland. Some
> people will understand that one follows the other.

I will get drunk tonight. But i sure as hell wont be posting ;-O Haha!

>>> From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for example
>>> medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do with a shoulder
>>> press even that way.

>> IMO, the weight during the clean goes up because of the acceleration,
>> which
>> was caused by contracting the legs hard.

> Yeap. And also because you are *able* to contract muscles *hard*. I
> like it.

Sure. There is nothing wrong with liking these exercises. I liked them
myself.
But for optimal development, you better select something else.

> I have some martial arts background. I like to be able to move fast.
> No real reason apart from that is what I still like.

Okay.

> Lifting things slow will make you slow.

Ehh... i am not sure that i, or the PLers here agree with you on this one.
Try to move a weight taht is 85-90% of 1RM as fast as possible, without
momentum, cheating, or other tricks to get the weight up.

Just the primary movers. I videotaped myself doing this. I THOUGHT i was
going fast, using aprox. 85% for 6 reps, but it wasnt that fast at all.
It just felt fast, because i *tried* to go fast. If theweight was 65%, then
yes, it would be fast.

My theory is that these kinda training will make you faster, not slower.

I am one hellavu sprinter. All the way up to 60 meters. Then i collapse...
;-O
Nuff said.

>> So that will take stress OFF the muscles, instead of increasing it. I
>> NEVER
>> use momentum to move weights.

> I do.

Why?
So that the weights you move are heavier?

----
Pete

Jason Earl
September 29th 06, 06:32 PM
"Pete" > writes:

> "Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:
>
>>> Whats the difference, for the delts/traps, if you press the bar
>>> while you sit. I really dont know, so help me out here...
>
>> Potentially safer for lumbar region of spine and you can do an
>> additional overload with no spotter by jerking the weight up which
>> you can no longer press.
>
> I have always done them sitting, even when i used free weights,
> without back bproblems.
>
>>> But a clean has NOTHING to do with a shoulder press...

It's hard to argue with that. I tend to clean the weight to my
shoulders before pressing it, but the exercises are two different
things.

>> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that
>> helps to keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance.
>
> I dont consider cleans a "target" exercise. For upper back, i
> prefer rows and pulldowns.

For the folks that are looking for improvements in athletic
performance the clean is a very important exercise. If you want to
improve your vertical leap, for example, then cleans are a very useful
tool.

Not that I am disagreeing with your assessment in any way. I am just
pointing out that folks with non-aesthetic goals feel somewhat
differently about cleans.

>> Many typical gym goers have a forward shoulder posture which can
>> become a bitch in time.
>
> Rows. And MORE rows!

Rows are great.

>> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.
>
> I prefer to focus on one thing at the time. Its either back or
> shoulders.
>
>> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.
>
> Thats true, but only up until a point. Cleans will get you nowhere
> near what rows can accomplish. So you have to work the back
> separate anyway...

An extra set of rows never hurt anyone :). However, for athletic
purposes cleans would probably be enough.

>> From the point of view of muscles involved, clean targets for
>> example medial deltoid and trapesius, so it has something to do
>> with a shoulder press even that way.
>
> IMO, the weight during the clean goes up because of the
> acceleration, which was caused by contracting the legs hard. So
> that will take stress OFF the muscles, instead of increasing it. I
> NEVER use momentum to move weights.

There's something to be said for power and speed, both of which are
enhanced by cleans.

Jason

Andrzej Rosa
September 29th 06, 07:48 PM
Dnia 2006-09-29 Pete napisał(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:
>
>> So I wrote potentially. If you do them seating, but on a chair with
>> back support, it is probably less dangerous than standing lift. If you
>> do them siting astride a bench they may be more dangerous (but not
>> necessarily).
>
> I do them with a seat that HAS back support, but i noticed that my back
> barely touches the padding.
> I am not sure wether the fact that the padding is there helps or not.

Guys who press some heavy metal, press with their legs hard and brace
themselves against the back support.

Have no idea if what you do makes much difference or not.

>>>> Well, it might. Clean targets upper back strongly and by that helps to
>>>> keep the muscles around a shoulder joint in balance.
>
>>> I dont consider cleans a "target" exercise.
>>> For upper back, i prefer rows and pulldowns.
>
>> None the less, they target something.
>
> Eh.. i suspect the legs and glutes get some load. The lower arms, shoulders
> and traps get some load.
> These muscles are allready worked by other exercises. Which is why i fail to
> see the point of doing them.
>
> I am NOT saying that cl;eans have no effect, but whats the point of hitting
> something that allready has been hit?

If your program consist of that kind of exercises (multi joint, many
groups) you can save time, for example. You pick some "big movers" and
throw some extra change on top of it (mostly arms) and you are set.

Many people would make good progress with just clean&press and
whatever strikes their fancy.

It's just different philosophy to yours.

>>>> Many typical gym
>>>> goers have a forward shoulder posture which can become a bitch in time.
>
>>> Rows. And MORE rows!
>
>> Right. What if you have no time for shrugs?
>
> I NEVER do shrugs. I think the traps get a ton of work grom shoulder and
> back work.
> Shrugs are fine, but i never could get "in the groove" with that exercise.

So you see. Cleans can do that for you.

BTW - did you ever tried high pulls?

>> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-)
>
> True.
> But some ways are more directly ;-O

And some are more general.

>>>> Doing cleans and presses together helps in maintaining balance.
>
>>> I prefer to focus on one thing at the time. Its either back or shoulders.
>
>> You are a bodybuilder, aren't you?
>
> I consider myself one. Other people have accused of looking, and working
> like a powerlifter or weightlifter.
> I like to use heavy weights to get bigger. Mostly compounds sdupplrmented
> with isolation movements.
> I work in the 5-8 range to build the muscles. At times, i work up to 10-12.
> For several weeks, usually after a fast increase in strength.
> I take plenty of rest between sets, and the concentricts are performed as
> fast as possible, but WITHOUT the use of momentum. Because i work my way up
> to 80-85%, it might appear that the weights move slow. But like i said, the
> concentric is don as fast as possible, and the eccentric a little slower, to
> keep stress on the muscles and to prevent injury.
>
> NEVER had an injury, BTW...

So you know what you are doing. It works for you, but there are other
people with different approaches, goals, time schedules, priorities and
so on. Cleans are very valuable for many of them.

>>>> Also it saves time. You do two exercises in time of one.
>
> Which is why some people like deadl;ifts, because they work the back and
> legs.
> But they are NOT the bst way to hit the legs. With these type of exercises,
> something always lags behind. Always.

So what, if you are strong in pulls?

BTW - for people with long legs and short trunks DL's might be not such
a bad choice for legs too.

>>> Thats true, but only up until a point.
>>> Cleans will get you nowhere near what rows can accomplish.
>
>> Rows will get you nowhere near what rows&cleans can accomplish.
>> Especially if you like to be able to move fast.
>
> Can you explain that?

I hope so. ;-)

> Rows and pulldowns work the entire back.

So do DL's or cleans.

> I do cable rows with a very long range of motion, because i like to use the
> spinals as one of the primary movers.
> The other primary movers in the back are both the traps and lats, and the
> muscles that work parallel with the traps and lats (teres and rhomboid)
>
> Which muscles are developed when you do cleans?
> Or do certain muscles get some kind of stimulii i am not aware of?

It's not always about muscles. For some it is about ability to move
fast.

>>> So you have to work the back separate anyway...
>
>> No.
>
> Yes.
>
>> You do not have to.
>
> Yes you do.

No, you do not. ;-)

>> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat.
>
> If you want to develop the back,

What if you want to develop an ability?

> select exercises where the back is the
> primary, or at at least a dominant mover.
> If you select an exercise for general strength, you will GET general
> strength.

Fine by me.

> NOT maximum development.

All right. I'll tell it to Ronnie first time I see him. Imagine what
he might become if he forgot about his DL's!

>> Damn, I'm drunk because I did some physical work in Poland. Some
>> people will understand that one follows the other.
>
> I will get drunk tonight. But i sure as hell wont be posting ;-O Haha!

We'll see. ;-)

>>> IMO, the weight during the clean goes up because of the acceleration,
>>> which
>>> was caused by contracting the legs hard.
>
>> Yeap. And also because you are *able* to contract muscles *hard*. I
>> like it.
>
> Sure. There is nothing wrong with liking these exercises. I liked them
> myself.
> But for optimal development, you better select something else.

But it's not like you sacrifice a lot by doing them. Both strongmen
and Olympic lifters have tremendous backs and they do a lot of cleans.

>> I have some martial arts background. I like to be able to move fast.
>> No real reason apart from that is what I still like.
>
> Okay.
>
>> Lifting things slow will make you slow.
>
> Ehh... i am not sure that i, or the PLers here agree with you on this one.

Keith Hobman did.

> Try to move a weight taht is 85-90% of 1RM as fast as possible, without
> momentum, cheating, or other tricks to get the weight up.
>
> Just the primary movers. I videotaped myself doing this. I THOUGHT i was
> going fast, using aprox. 85% for 6 reps, but it wasnt that fast at all.
> It just felt fast, because i *tried* to go fast. If theweight was 65%, then
> yes, it would be fast.
>
> My theory is that these kinda training will make you faster, not slower.

It will, to a point. Still training fast will make you faster.
Actually Zatsiorsky did a good job explaining those things long time
ago.

> I am one hellavu sprinter. All the way up to 60 meters. Then i collapse...
> ;-O
> Nuff said.
>
>>> So that will take stress OFF the muscles, instead of increasing it. I
>>> NEVER
>>> use momentum to move weights.
>
>> I do.
>
> Why?
> So that the weights you move are heavier?

So I can rip them bastids off the ground and put them overhead.

I do exclusively:
One handed snatch.
One handed clean&press
Whatever strikes my fancy (mostly dips and pullups).

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Curt James
September 30th 06, 12:40 AM
Andrzej Rosa wrote:
[...]

> None the less, they target something.

I target typos. It's not a criticism, however. I call it fun. :o) To
wit: nontheless.

[...]
> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-) <snip>

> <snip> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat. <snip>

> <snip> There are many ways to shave a cat. <snip>

First dogs pooping and now cats shaving! What could possibly be next???


> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt

Pete
September 30th 06, 10:48 AM
"Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:

>> I do them with a seat that HAS back support, but i noticed that my back
>> barely touches the padding.
>> I am not sure wether the fact that the padding is there helps or not.

> Guys who press some heavy metal, press with their legs hard and brace
> themselves against the back support.

Unless you condition yourself not to.

Like i said, i touch the padding, but i am not pressing it hard, And the
legs? Almost relaxed.
Everything comes from the shoulder girddle, as it should. I dont even
squeeze the handles, i presss with the palm of my hand, hands wide open.

Its a matter of training yourself to perform an exercise like that.

>> I am NOT saying that cl;eans have no effect, but whats the point of
>> hitting
>> something that allready has been hit?

> If your program consist of that kind of exercises (multi joint, many
> groups) you can save time, for example.

I dont think training should be about saving time, it be about stressing the
right muscles the right way, no matter how much time it takes.
Not that i do THAT much. But i dont organize my workout in such a way that i
save time. IO organize my workout to have a good workout.

> You pick some "big movers" and
> throw some extra change on top of it (mostly arms) and you are set.

Well, thats what i have been doing for a lot of years now.

Exercises i perform are;

Low incline press
Overhead press

Sometimes dips

Small grip cable row
Small grip pull down

Sometimes Wide grips

Supplemented with machine pec flyes, laterals, standing barbell curls and
tricep push/pressdowns.

Thats upper body.

Narrow stance, high bar squats, slightly below parallel
Leg presses

Sometimes hacks

Supplemented with extensions, curls, calf raises and abdominal machine
crunches (sets of 15-20 reps with 100kg)

Thats it.

> Many people would make good progress with just clean&press and
> whatever strikes their fancy.

Do you really think that a clean&press develops the entire upper body?
Sure, the traps shoulders and triceps are being hit. Up to a point.

But i have my doubt about the pectorals and lattisimus.
What exactly does the humerus do in a clean? Or press?

Where is the origin, and insertion, of the lattisimus? And pectorals?
The origin and insertion of a muscle will dictate its function.

> It's just different philosophy to yours.

True.
But i think my philosophy is a bit more then just a philosophy.

>> I NEVER do shrugs. I think the traps get a ton of work grom shoulder and
>> back work.
>> Shrugs are fine, but i never could get "in the groove" with that
>> exercise.

> So you see. Cleans can do that for you.

What can they do for me?
During overheads and rows, they way i perform them, without momentum, the
traps contract extremely hard to move weight.

If you build momentum, like in cleans, the weight will not tax the muscles
as hard as when there is no mementum.

Why do you think weightlifters build as much momentum as they can before
they duck under the weight?

> BTW - did you ever tried high pulls?

Yes.
Didnt like them.

In the past, i did deadlifts to bring up my spinals and traps.
These days, the rows and overheads are all i seem to need for spinals and
traps.

>> True.
>> But some ways are more directly ;-O

> And some are more general.

True.

>> NEVER had an injury, BTW...

> So you know what you are doing. It works for you, but there are other
> people with different approaches, goals, time schedules, priorities and
> so on. Cleans are very valuable for many of them.

True.
But i still have my doubts about which muscles are being hit if somebody
allready does rows and overheads.
I dont think you have answered that one...

And i am not talking about saving time, i am talking about stressing the
muscles.

>> Which is why some people like deadl;ifts, because they work the back and
>> legs.
>> But they are NOT the bst way to hit the legs. With these type of
>> exercises,
>> something always lags behind. Always.

> So what, if you are strong in pulls?

What if you are?

Thats probably due to body mechanics and certain muscles being developed.
Lomg arms and short legs help to pull more weight. But has nothing to do
with muscular development.

> BTW - for people with long legs and short trunks DL's might be not such
> a bad choice for legs too.

Hmmm.

If your trunk is short, it will be forced to incline more forward. With a
long trunk, the trunk can stay in a more upright position, which tend to
take some stress of the spinals and let the legs work harder.

Are you sure that a short trunk will transfer the load to the legs?

>>> Rows will get you nowhere near what rows&cleans can accomplish.
>>> Especially if you like to be able to move fast.

>> Can you explain that?

> I hope so. ;-)

Well ?!?!?!

>> Rows and pulldowns work the entire back.

> So do DL's or cleans.

No.

Whats the function of the latissimus and both the teres muscles?

>> I do cable rows with a very long range of motion, because i like to use
>> the
>> spinals as one of the primary movers.
>> The other primary movers in the back are both the traps and lats, and the
>> muscles that work parallel with the traps and lats (teres and rhomboid)

>> Which muscles are developed when you do cleans?
>> Or do certain muscles get some kind of stimulii i am not aware of?

> It's not always about muscles.

Werent we discussing back/leg/shoulder development, with emphasis on back?
Thats about muscles.
You implied clearly that if you clean and press, you wont need anything
else. I disagreed, and asked you explain how that works.

> For some it is about ability to move
> fast.

Sure. Fine. Let them move fast.

>>> No.

>> Yes.

Yes.

>>> You do not have to.

>> Yes you do.

> No, you do not. ;-)

Yes you do.

>>> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat.

>> If you want to develop the back,

> What if you want to develop an ability?

Again, YOU said that if you clean and press, you wont need anything else.

Ability is a an entirely different discussion, which i will not get into.

Are we discussing muscular development or the abilty to move fast, or some
other skill?

>> select exercises where the back is the
>> primary, or at at least a dominant mover.
>> If you select an exercise for general strength, you will GET general
>> strength.

> Fine by me.

Thought so ;-O

>> NOT maximum development.

> All right. I'll tell it to Ronnie first time I see him.

Please do!

> Imagine what
> he might become if he forgot about his DL's!

Ronnie does a ****pile of of rows, both barbell, T-bar AND cables, and does
several variations of pulldowns as well.
You know what happens if he stopped deadlifting? Nothing.

I think he does doubles with 800 because he likes to.
Again, Ronnie does both front and back squats, leg presses, and i allready
mentioned the upper back.

Which muscles are hit while deadlifting that are NOT hit with all the leg
and back exercises combined, which he does.

Why does he spend so much time doing separate back and leg exercises?

Think about it...

>>> Damn, I'm drunk because I did some physical work in Poland. Some
>>> people will understand that one follows the other.

>> I will get drunk tonight. But i sure as hell wont be posting ;-O Haha!

> We'll see. ;-)

We have ;-O

>> Sure. There is nothing wrong with liking these exercises. I liked them
>> myself.
>> But for optimal development, you better select something else.

> But it's not like you sacrifice a lot by doing them. Both strongmen
> and Olympic lifters have tremendous backs and they do a lot of cleans.

I know for a fact that stromgmen do rows and pulldowns as well.

I am not sure about the OLers.

>>> Lifting things slow will make you slow.

>> Ehh... i am not sure that i, or the PLers here agree with you on this
>> one.

> Keith Hobman did.

Missed that.

I still am convinced that if you *try* to move fast, but move relatively
slow because the weight, 80-90% 1RM is too heavy to go fast, WITHOUT
momentum, you will still develop the neural pathways to move fast. Just a
theory...

>> Just the primary movers. I videotaped myself doing this. I THOUGHT i was
>> going fast, using aprox. 85% for 6 reps, but it wasnt that fast at all.
>> It just felt fast, because i *tried* to go fast. If theweight was 65%,
>> then
>> yes, it would be fast.

>> My theory is that these kinda training will make you faster, not slower.

> It will, to a point. Still training fast will make you faster.

Thats obvious.

>>> I do.

>> Why?
>> So that the weights you move are heavier?

> So I can rip them bastids off the ground and put them overhead.

And as a result, your lattisimus is so developed that, in your case, rows
and/or pulldowns wont make a difference?

> I do exclusively:
> One handed snatch.
> One handed clean&press
> Whatever strikes my fancy (mostly dips and pullups).

Ah! Pullups!
Great lat exercise. Good for biceps as well.
Dips will hit the pecs hard. And triceps and deltoids.

----
Pete

Andrzej Rosa
September 30th 06, 02:36 PM
Dnia 2006-09-30 Pete napisał(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" > schreef:
>
>> Guys who press some heavy metal, press with their legs hard and brace
>> themselves against the back support.
>
> Unless you condition yourself not to.
>
> Like i said, i touch the padding, but i am not pressing it hard, And the
> legs? Almost relaxed.
> Everything comes from the shoulder girddle, as it should. I dont even
> squeeze the handles, i presss with the palm of my hand, hands wide open.
>
> Its a matter of training yourself to perform an exercise like that.

I forgot you do it with machines. It's hard to imagine for me, that
someone could pull this technique off with free weights, but who knows,
maybe it's possible?

>>> I am NOT saying that cl;eans have no effect, but whats the point of
>>> hitting
>>> something that allready has been hit?
>
>> If your program consist of that kind of exercises (multi joint, many
>> groups) you can save time, for example.
>
> I dont think training should be about saving time,

In an ideal world with rubber days which stretch as far as you like,
why not?

> it be about stressing the right muscles the right way,

Agreed, but the right way depends on your goals.

> no matter how much time it takes.

And this is unrealistic. No matter if you are an average Joe or a pro,
days have only 24 hours.

> Not that i do THAT much. But i dont organize my workout in such a way that i
> save time. IO organize my workout to have a good workout.

Funny thing, me too. I train daily (well, at least I try) and the fact
that my workouts rarely go over 30 min from leaving the house to coming
back is a nice bonus (only 20 meters walk helps a little ;-) ).

I would not be able to train daily if they took much longer.

>> You pick some "big movers" and
>> throw some extra change on top of it (mostly arms) and you are set.
>
> Well, thats what i have been doing for a lot of years now.
>
> Exercises i perform are;
>
> Low incline press
> Overhead press
>
> Sometimes dips
>
> Small grip cable row
> Small grip pull down
>
> Sometimes Wide grips
>
> Supplemented with machine pec flyes, laterals, standing barbell curls and
> tricep push/pressdowns.
>
> Thats upper body.
>
> Narrow stance, high bar squats, slightly below parallel
> Leg presses
>
> Sometimes hacks
>
> Supplemented with extensions, curls, calf raises and abdominal machine
> crunches (sets of 15-20 reps with 100kg)
>
> Thats it.

Good stuff, obviously. I'm not trying to tell you that you do
something wrong.

>> Many people would make good progress with just clean&press and
>> whatever strikes their fancy.
>
> Do you really think that a clean&press develops the entire upper body?
> Sure, the traps shoulders and triceps are being hit. Up to a point.
>
> But i have my doubt about the pectorals and lattisimus.

I think you are right.

> What exactly does the humerus do in a clean? Or press?
>
> Where is the origin, and insertion, of the lattisimus? And pectorals?
> The origin and insertion of a muscle will dictate its function.

I think you coma at it from a wrong direction. Imagine that someone
has a time for two training sessions a week, and even those must be over
within an hour. He must use big compound movements to hit many muscles
at once. Clean&press is such a move and it covers a lot of muscles.

C&P, weighted dips and pullups - how much would he miss? Maybe a
little bit of arms development, but not necessarily (depending on his
leverages, for example). It's been proved to work.

>>> I NEVER do shrugs. I think the traps get a ton of work grom shoulder and
>>> back work.
>>> Shrugs are fine, but i never could get "in the groove" with that
>>> exercise.
>
>> So you see. Cleans can do that for you.
>
> What can they do for me?
> During overheads and rows, they way i perform them, without momentum, the
> traps contract extremely hard to move weight.
>
> If you build momentum, like in cleans, the weight will not tax the muscles
> as hard as when there is no mementum.

Why then many bodybuilders, including Arnold IIRC, did advocate a
little bit of cheating at least at the end of a set? Why then Fred
Hatfield coined a term of compensatory acceleration?

I mean, it's not that simple that momentum is all wrong. It can help
you go through a sticking point and you have to contract muscles hard
even in the "easy" part of motion.

Let's take a curl. If you do strict curls with no momentum to speak of
you do not contract your biceps hard at the low portion of the lift.
If you did, weight would move faster and have this awful momentum.

So by avoiding momentum you in practice contract biceps very hard, but
only at 90 degrees, where it's usually hardest. If you use some "cheating",
like advocated by many bodybuilders, you contract it hard through more
degrees. And finally, if you use very strict form on the negative part of
motion, you can overload your muscles more because you do some sort of
negatives.

Try ballistic C&P with strict negatives. I do it only if I feel the
need for some serious punishment.

However, I know you'll not really listen to what I have to say, because
I'm no sort of authority, so take it from Ronnie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu2lBCtkmbA

First clip I found. He virtually throws weights up during front raises
and curls. During front squats the bar is almost bouncing off his
clavicle due the amount of compensatory acceleration he's using. He
does supposedly useless DLs which hit muscles already hit by other
exercises.

Do you believe he could be so much bigger if he did everything "your
way"?

> Why do you think weightlifters build as much momentum as they can before
> they duck under the weight?

To lift heavy stuff overhead. They love it.

[...]
>>> NEVER had an injury, BTW...
>
>> So you know what you are doing. It works for you, but there are other
>> people with different approaches, goals, time schedules, priorities and
>> so on. Cleans are very valuable for many of them.
>
> True.
> But i still have my doubts about which muscles are being hit if somebody
> allready does rows and overheads.
> I dont think you have answered that one...

That would be spinal erectors, glutes, hamstrings, soleus and
trapesius. A lot of bang for a buck, in my book.

> And i am not talking about saving time, i am talking about stressing the
> muscles.

If you do strict overheads as compared with hang-clean&ohp, when overall
load on upper back will be higher? Higher load means more stress to
the muscles.

>>> Which is why some people like deadl;ifts, because they work the back and
>>> legs.
>>> But they are NOT the bst way to hit the legs. With these type of
>>> exercises,
>>> something always lags behind. Always.
>
>> So what, if you are strong in pulls?
>
> What if you are?
>
> Thats probably due to body mechanics and certain muscles being developed.
> Lomg arms and short legs help to pull more weight. But has nothing to do
> with muscular development.

Stupid Ronnie. He could be so much bigger if he only stopped doing DLs.

>> BTW - for people with long legs and short trunks DL's might be not such
>> a bad choice for legs too.
>
> Hmmm.
>
> If your trunk is short, it will be forced to incline more forward. With a
> long trunk, the trunk can stay in a more upright position, which tend to
> take some stress of the spinals and let the legs work harder.
>
> Are you sure that a short trunk will transfer the load to the legs?

For people with long trunks lower back is often a limiting factor.
They can't overload their legs, because a weak link there. Sumos seem
to help a little with that problem.

>>>> Rows will get you nowhere near what rows&cleans can accomplish.
>>>> Especially if you like to be able to move fast.
>
>>> Can you explain that?
>
>> I hope so. ;-)
>
> Well ?!?!?!

It turns to be hard, because you think in terms of muscles, not
abilities. Cleans are ballistic movement of a whole body. You can not
replace all qualities of such a lift with slow-motion rows.

>>> Rows and pulldowns work the entire back.
>
>> So do DL's or cleans.
>
> No.
>
> Whats the function of the latissimus and both the teres muscles?

Latissimus is involved anyway. It will be hard to find a muscle which
does exactly nothing during such a lift like clean.

>> It's not always about muscles.
>
> Werent we discussing back/leg/shoulder development, with emphasis on back?
> Thats about muscles.

No, as far as I'm concerned. I was discussing training of upper body,
with hypertrophy of muscles being a nice side effect.

> You implied clearly that if you clean and press, you wont need anything
> else.

No. I wrote, that many people could do a lot of progress by just doing
C&P and some auxiliaries. That is true.

> I disagreed, and asked you explain how that works.

You engage your whole body in a lift, so whole body gets a stimulus.
Lifts like C&P work like weapons of mass destruction. Sure, some areas
got it worse than others, but you may fix that by some auxiliaries, if
you like.

>> For some it is about ability to move
>> fast.
>
> Sure. Fine. Let them move fast.

And to unleash this ability they often opt for doing cleans.

>>>> No.
>
>>> Yes.
>
> Yes.
>
>>>> You do not have to.
>
>>> Yes you do.
>
>> No, you do not. ;-)
>
> Yes you do.

To reach which goal? If your goal is to lift more, you do not have to
train pull-downs.

>>>> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat.
>
>>> If you want to develop the back,
>
>> What if you want to develop an ability?
>
> Again, YOU said that if you clean and press, you wont need anything else.

No, I did not. I wrote that many people will make a lot of progress by
just doing C&P and some auxiliaries. That is true.

> Ability is a an entirely different discussion, which i will not get into.
>
> Are we discussing muscular development or the abilty to move fast, or some
> other skill?

We are discussing training. You may train to reach a lot of different
goals, not just hypertrophy.

>>> select exercises where the back is the
>>> primary, or at at least a dominant mover.
>>> If you select an exercise for general strength, you will GET general
>>> strength.
>
>> Fine by me.
>
> Thought so ;-O

You got me bad, this time. ;-)

>>> NOT maximum development.
>
>> All right. I'll tell it to Ronnie first time I see him.
>
> Please do!
>
>> Imagine what
>> he might become if he forgot about his DL's!
>
> Ronnie does a ****pile of of rows, both barbell, T-bar AND cables, and does
> several variations of pulldowns as well.
> You know what happens if he stopped deadlifting? Nothing.

So why he did not stop? He's an undisputed champ for a row of years
and all this time he performed something stupid, according to you.

Don't you think, that it is possible that he knows what he's doing,
after all? It's not like you become an undisputed champ because you
are mistaken.

> I think he does doubles with 800 because he likes to.
> Again, Ronnie does both front and back squats, leg presses, and i allready
> mentioned the upper back.
>
> Which muscles are hit while deadlifting that are NOT hit with all the leg
> and back exercises combined, which he does.

Better question would be to ask which muscles *aren't* hit.

> Why does he spend so much time doing separate back and leg exercises?
>
> Think about it...

You got me wrong on this one. I do not claim that all muscles are
optimally stimulated by big moves like DL's or C&P.

>>>> Damn, I'm drunk because I did some physical work in Poland. Some
>>>> people will understand that one follows the other.
>
>>> I will get drunk tonight. But i sure as hell wont be posting ;-O Haha!
>
>> We'll see. ;-)
>
> We have ;-O

You behave so well and I again had some vodka during a family dinner
and I'm posting again! Home made vodka - great stuff!

>> But it's not like you sacrifice a lot by doing them. Both strongmen
>> and Olympic lifters have tremendous backs and they do a lot of cleans.
>
> I know for a fact that stromgmen do rows and pulldowns as well.
>
> I am not sure about the OLers.

Not likely. They might get some hypertrophy in an area which is not
needed to lift heavy stuff overhead and become heavier due to this.

>>>> Lifting things slow will make you slow.
>
>>> Ehh... i am not sure that i, or the PLers here agree with you on this
>>> one.
>
>> Keith Hobman did.
>
> Missed that.

I remember from my last visit here, that he switched do Olympic lifting
because he wanted to be able to move faster.

> I still am convinced that if you *try* to move fast, but move relatively
> slow because the weight, 80-90% 1RM is too heavy to go fast, WITHOUT
> momentum, you will still develop the neural pathways to move fast. Just a
> theory...

Not a bad one, actually (though it is an hypotheses, not the theory). It
can be tested and discussed (and it even was, to a point).

But going this route, superslow way of training would be optimal
(smallest chance of injury) but I've never heard about anyone training
superslow to be really fast. Yes, I think superslow is not good for
athletes.

>>> Just the primary movers. I videotaped myself doing this. I THOUGHT i was
>>> going fast, using aprox. 85% for 6 reps, but it wasnt that fast at all.
>>> It just felt fast, because i *tried* to go fast. If theweight was 65%,
>>> then
>>> yes, it would be fast.
>
>>> My theory is that these kinda training will make you faster, not slower.
>
>> It will, to a point. Still training fast will make you faster.
>
> Thats obvious.

But it would be hard to prove. I'm glad you agree.

>>>> I do.
>
>>> Why?
>>> So that the weights you move are heavier?
>
>> So I can rip them bastids off the ground and put them overhead.
>
> And as a result, your lattisimus is so developed that, in your case, rows
> and/or pulldowns wont make a difference?

I do pullups sometimes. They are auxiliaries, but I do them for
aesthetic reasons.

>> I do exclusively:
>> One handed snatch.
>> One handed clean&press
>> Whatever strikes my fancy (mostly dips and pullups).
>
> Ah! Pullups!
> Great lat exercise. Good for biceps as well.
> Dips will hit the pecs hard. And triceps and deltoids.

That's my whole point. Four exercises and not a lot of room for
improvement. I could give up snatching and not lose much, too.

BTW - one handed cleans hit biceps harder than double handed ones. You
do them with a curl grip. Also legs work as hard as you can make them.
More legs more weight, so not much room for improvement in this region
too.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa
September 30th 06, 03:13 PM
Dnia 2006-09-29 Curt James napisał(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> [...]
>
>> None the less, they target something.
>
> I target typos. It's not a criticism, however. I call it fun. :o) To
> wit: nontheless.

Thanks. You are way better than aspell!

> [...]
>> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-) <snip>
>
>> <snip> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat. <snip>
>
>> <snip> There are many ways to shave a cat. <snip>
>
> First dogs pooping and now cats shaving! What could possibly be next???

Simple. We take over the World.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Curt James
September 30th 06, 05:06 PM
Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Curt James:
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> None the less, they target something.
> >
> > I target typos. It's not a criticism, however.
> > I call it fun. :o) To wit: nontheless.
>
> Thanks. You are way better than aspell!
>
> > [...]
> >> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-) <snip>
> >> <snip> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat. <snip>
> >> <snip> There are many ways to shave a cat. <snip>
> >
> > First dogs pooping and now cats shaving! What could
> > possibly be next???
>
> Simple. We take over the World.

Excellent.

Viva la revolution!

--
Curt

Andrzej Rosa
September 30th 06, 05:59 PM
Dnia 2006-09-30 Curt James napisał(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
[...]
>> >> There are many ways to shave a cat. ;-) <snip>
>> >> <snip> It's just one of the ways to shave a cat. <snip>
>> >> <snip> There are many ways to shave a cat. <snip>
>> >
>> > First dogs pooping and now cats shaving! What could
>> > possibly be next???
>>
>> Simple. We take over the World.
>
> Excellent.
>
> Viva la revolution!

Cry louder, and maybe the one who will take the world from us will
spare you for a moment. ;-)

Write a pamphlet, or something. It never hurts to be prepared. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Curt James
October 1st 06, 05:30 AM
Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Curt James
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
[...]

> >> > First dogs pooping and now cats shaving! What could
> >> > possibly be next???
> >>
> >> Simple. We take over the World.
> >
> > Excellent.
> >
> > Viva la revolution!
>
> Cry louder, and maybe the one who will take the world
> from us will spare you for a moment. ;-)

I suspect it will all eventually end in fire and, certainly, those who
frequent newsgroups will not be spared for even a moment. Hth.

> Write a pamphlet, or something. It never hurts to be
> prepared. ;-)

Perhaps I'll title it "How To Maintain a Positive Outlook During the
Coming Apocalypse". ;o)

--
Curt