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Bully
May 22nd 07, 09:08 AM
If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is this a
weakness in the adductors or abductors?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the
opportunity in every difficulty."
Sir Winston Churchill

Pete
May 22nd 07, 09:23 AM
"Bully" > schreef:

> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is this
> a weakness in the adductors or abductors?

Adductors.

But i think that the feet should be placed in such a way that neither the
add. or abd. should be stressed hard.

Which is, for most people, inner side of the foot 15 degrees to the side.

--
Pete

Dally
May 22nd 07, 03:17 PM
Bully wrote:
> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is this a
> weakness in the adductors or abductors?

I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same time,
that gains one one side will also help the other side.

Hows your stretching routine?

Dally

Hobbes
May 22nd 07, 08:18 PM
In article >,
Dally > wrote:

> Bully wrote:
> > If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is this a
> > weakness in the adductors or abductors?
>
> I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same time,
> that gains one one side will also help the other side.
>
> Hows your stretching routine?
>
> Dally
>

Most often if it is a relatively strong person who has been doing some
training it doesn't mean either. It tends to mean you have a relatively
weak posterior chain. So you are compensating. I really don't see
stretching (at least conventional stretching) helping.

During hip extension and knee extension you have a number of two joint
muscles working - rectus femoris is a knee extensor, but a hip flexor
for example. You also have the hamstrings which are hip extensors, but
knee flexors, as well as sartorius and gracialis. So hip extension and
knee extension is a very complex movement pattern since the two joint
muscles are at competing ends. The knees buckling is almost always
accompanied by the pelvis tilting because the gluts can't stabilize the
conflicting pulls of the two joint muscles. People see the knees
buckling, but they miss the accompanying pelvis tilt. The pelvis tilt
tends to be more subtle.

So despite all the fancy anatomy, the solution tends to be easy. Wide
stance box squats where they focus on pushing the butt back onto the box
and keeping the knees out. Sumo deadlifts as well.

Another trick is to tell the person to imagine they are clenching a
quarter between their butt cheeks as they squat. They tend to keep the
gluts activated then.

Fatal flaw is having the person squat lower than their ability to keep
the pelvis aligned. I advocate ass-to-the-grass squats, but only if the
pelvis alignment can be maintained - neutral back and no 'wink' of the
ass. Once again, since the focus on the box is to slide back onto the
surface like you are trying to push a piece of paper back the box squat
is really an exercise that focused on pelvis alignment.

Normal caveats about controlling the weight, not 'thumping' onto the box
apply. Box is lowered over time as the person learns to stabilize the
pelvis.

--
Keith

Bully
May 23rd 07, 06:28 AM
In ,
Pete > typed:
> "Bully" > schreef:
>
>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is
>> this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?
>
> Adductors.

So is it a matter of the adductor "pushing" the leg outward rather than the
abductor "pulling" it out?

>
> But i think that the feet should be placed in such a way that neither
> the add. or abd. should be stressed hard.
>
> Which is, for most people, inner side of the foot 15 degrees to the
> side.

Agreed; but at what angle should the outside of the foot be placed ; ) ?


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Bully
May 23rd 07, 06:29 AM
In ,
Dally > typed:
> Bully wrote:
>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is
>> this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?
>
> I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same time,
> that gains one one side will also help the other side.

You don't use THOSE machines do you?

>
> Hows your stretching routine?

Ehm, actually it's still in the planning stage :) !

>
> Dally



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Bully
May 23rd 07, 06:35 AM
In ,
Hobbes > typed:
> In article >,
> Dally > wrote:
>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole,
>>> is this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?
>>
>> I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same time,
>> that gains one one side will also help the other side.
>>
>> Hows your stretching routine?
>>
>> Dally
>>
>
> Most often if it is a relatively strong person who has been doing some
> training it doesn't mean either. It tends to mean you have a
> relatively weak posterior chain. So you are compensating. I really
> don't see stretching (at least conventional stretching) helping.

That was O/T for this particular topic!

>
> During hip extension and knee extension you have a number of two joint
> muscles working - rectus femoris is a knee extensor, but a hip flexor
> for example. You also have the hamstrings which are hip extensors, but
> knee flexors, as well as sartorius and gracialis. So hip extension
> and knee extension is a very complex movement pattern since the two
> joint muscles are at competing ends. The knees buckling is almost
> always accompanied by the pelvis tilting because the gluts can't
> stabilize the conflicting pulls of the two joint muscles. People see
> the knees buckling, but they miss the accompanying pelvis tilt. The
> pelvis tilt tends to be more subtle.

This is my training partner who has the problem. He does do something else
that looks "wrong" in terms of hips/pelvis/lower back but I'm having a
problem identifying it.

>
> So despite all the fancy anatomy, the solution tends to be easy. Wide
> stance box squats where they focus on pushing the butt back onto the
> box and keeping the knees out. Sumo deadlifts as well.

He's awful at deadlifts; rounding his back every time despite my
admonishments.

>
> Another trick is to tell the person to imagine they are clenching a
> quarter between their butt cheeks as they squat. They tend to keep the
> gluts activated then.

Ok, would a five pence piece do ;) ?

>
> Fatal flaw is having the person squat lower than their ability to keep
> the pelvis aligned. I advocate ass-to-the-grass squats,

He IS squatting a2g.

> but only if
> the pelvis alignment can be maintained - neutral back and no 'wink'
> of the ass. Once again, since the focus on the box is to slide back
> onto the surface like you are trying to push a piece of paper back
> the box squat is really an exercise that focused on pelvis alignment.
>
> Normal caveats about controlling the weight, not 'thumping' onto the
> box apply. Box is lowered over time as the person learns to stabilize
> the pelvis.

He does avoid the problem IF he focuses on driving his knee [it's primarily
a right side issue] out over his foot as he comes out the hole. I think we
will start with the five pence piece between his cheeks!

Thanks !!!!


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Hobbes
May 23rd 07, 06:01 PM
In article >,
"Bully" > wrote:

> In ,
> Hobbes > typed:
> > In article >,
> > Dally > wrote:
> >
> >> Bully wrote:
> >>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole,
> >>> is this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?
> >>
> >> I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same time,
> >> that gains one one side will also help the other side.
> >>
> >> Hows your stretching routine?
> >>
> >> Dally
> >>
> >
> > Most often if it is a relatively strong person who has been doing some
> > training it doesn't mean either. It tends to mean you have a
> > relatively weak posterior chain. So you are compensating. I really
> > don't see stretching (at least conventional stretching) helping.
>
> That was O/T for this particular topic!
>
> >
> > During hip extension and knee extension you have a number of two joint
> > muscles working - rectus femoris is a knee extensor, but a hip flexor
> > for example. You also have the hamstrings which are hip extensors, but
> > knee flexors, as well as sartorius and gracialis. So hip extension
> > and knee extension is a very complex movement pattern since the two
> > joint muscles are at competing ends. The knees buckling is almost
> > always accompanied by the pelvis tilting because the gluts can't
> > stabilize the conflicting pulls of the two joint muscles. People see
> > the knees buckling, but they miss the accompanying pelvis tilt. The
> > pelvis tilt tends to be more subtle.
>
> This is my training partner who has the problem. He does do something else
> that looks "wrong" in terms of hips/pelvis/lower back but I'm having a
> problem identifying it.
>
> >
> > So despite all the fancy anatomy, the solution tends to be easy. Wide
> > stance box squats where they focus on pushing the butt back onto the
> > box and keeping the knees out. Sumo deadlifts as well.
>
> He's awful at deadlifts; rounding his back every time despite my
> admonishments.
>
> >
> > Another trick is to tell the person to imagine they are clenching a
> > quarter between their butt cheeks as they squat. They tend to keep the
> > gluts activated then.
>
> Ok, would a five pence piece do ;) ?
>
> >
> > Fatal flaw is having the person squat lower than their ability to keep
> > the pelvis aligned. I advocate ass-to-the-grass squats,
>
> He IS squatting a2g.

But probably shouldn't be because he can't control medial or internal
rotation of his pelvis.

Box squats, probably starting off a 18-22" box. Work 'im down.

--
Keith

Pete
May 24th 07, 07:42 AM
"Bully" > schreef:

>>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole, is
>>> this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?

>> Adductors.

> So is it a matter of the adductor "pushing" the leg outward rather than
> the abductor "pulling" it out?

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant abductors, of course.

>> Which is, for most people, inner side of the foot 15 degrees to the
>> side.

> Agreed; but at what angle should the outside of the foot be placed ; ) ?

You should see my feet!

--
Pete

Pete
May 24th 07, 08:17 AM
"Hobbes" > schreef:

> Another trick is to tell the person to imagine they are clenching a
> quarter between their butt cheeks as they squat. They tend to keep the
> gluts activated then.

How about getting the adductors so HUGE that the knees have no choice but
getting to the outside ;-O

--
Pete

Bully
May 24th 07, 08:23 AM
In ,
Hobbes > typed:
> In article >,
> "Bully" > wrote:
>
>> In
>> ,
>> Hobbes > typed:
>>> In article >,
>>> Dally > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bully wrote:
>>>>> If the knees are buckling inwards when coming up out of the hole,
>>>>> is this a weakness in the adductors or abductors?
>>>>
>>>> I'd say abductors, but I've been told to work both at the same
>>>> time, that gains one one side will also help the other side.
>>>>
>>>> Hows your stretching routine?
>>>>
>>>> Dally
>>>>
>>>
>>> Most often if it is a relatively strong person who has been doing
>>> some training it doesn't mean either. It tends to mean you have a
>>> relatively weak posterior chain. So you are compensating. I really
>>> don't see stretching (at least conventional stretching) helping.
>>
>> That was O/T for this particular topic!
>>
>>>
>>> During hip extension and knee extension you have a number of two
>>> joint muscles working - rectus femoris is a knee extensor, but a
>>> hip flexor for example. You also have the hamstrings which are hip
>>> extensors, but knee flexors, as well as sartorius and gracialis.
>>> So hip extension and knee extension is a very complex movement
>>> pattern since the two joint muscles are at competing ends. The
>>> knees buckling is almost always accompanied by the pelvis tilting
>>> because the gluts can't stabilize the conflicting pulls of the two
>>> joint muscles. People see the knees buckling, but they miss the
>>> accompanying pelvis tilt. The pelvis tilt tends to be more subtle.
>>
>> This is my training partner who has the problem. He does do
>> something else that looks "wrong" in terms of hips/pelvis/lower back
>> but I'm having a problem identifying it.
>>
>>>
>>> So despite all the fancy anatomy, the solution tends to be easy.
>>> Wide stance box squats where they focus on pushing the butt back
>>> onto the box and keeping the knees out. Sumo deadlifts as well.
>>
>> He's awful at deadlifts; rounding his back every time despite my
>> admonishments.
>>
>>>
>>> Another trick is to tell the person to imagine they are clenching a
>>> quarter between their butt cheeks as they squat. They tend to keep
>>> the gluts activated then.
>>
>> Ok, would a five pence piece do ;) ?
>>
>>>
>>> Fatal flaw is having the person squat lower than their ability to
>>> keep the pelvis aligned. I advocate ass-to-the-grass squats,
>>
>> He IS squatting a2g.
>
> But probably shouldn't be because he can't control medial or internal
> rotation of his pelvis.
>
> Box squats, probably starting off a 18-22" box. Work 'im down.

I'll try persuading him; you can lead a horse to water...etc.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill