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March 25th 08, 12:26 PM
I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
each portion of food?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Andrzej Rosa
March 25th 08, 01:00 PM
Dnia 2008-03-25 napisał(a):
> I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food.

I like raw vegies (fiber, vitamins, all that) and so I recommend them,
not as a weight gaining strategy, of course, but as a healthy way to
feed yourself. Beside that you may eat "unhealthy" foods. There is
nothing wrong in a sandwich or a fried steak. Even sugars are fine if
you keep the amount sane and use it when they may help (around workout
time, that is).

> I realise I need
> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
> calorie intake I should take.

Whatever makes you gain weight.

> I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.

A bit on a lean side, but not hopeless. You probably do not need any
drastic changes in your diet.

> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
> each portion of food?

Sure. Hop on a scale each morning, and if you don't gain any weight
simply eat more.

> Any help would be much appreciated.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 25th 08, 09:34 PM
> wrote in message
...
>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
> each portion of food?
>
> Any help would be much appreciated.

Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you split
the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3 meals you
actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number of other benefits
but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass this one is crucial.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 26th 08, 12:43 AM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
>>> each portion of food?
>>>
>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>> this one is crucial.
>
> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The trick
> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
> if it makes you puke).
>
> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.

I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build muscle.
Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another reason someone
training with weights should eat 6 times a day. I couldn't find anything on
intermittant fasting at mayo, or medline.

I am very old school but try to be open minded and will do some research on
this subject. Thankyou for your post.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 26th 08, 12:53 AM
"Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "DZ" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>
>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>> this one is crucial.
>>
>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The trick
>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
>> if it makes you puke).
>>
>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>
> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
> muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another reason
> someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day. I couldn't find
> anything on intermittant fasting at mayo, or medline.
>
> I am very old school but try to be open minded and will do some research
> on this subject. Thankyou for your post.

I just discovered a couple of good reads on the subject.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=156352

And another one on Dave Draper's site (told you I am old school)
http://www.davedraper.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/PmWiki/IntermittentFasting

The article on Dave's site has links leading to more info yet.

Steve Freides
March 26th 08, 02:09 AM
"Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "DZ" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more
>>>>to
>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me
>>>> build
>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I
>>>> need
>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the
>>>> recommend
>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83
>>>> kgs.
>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are
>>>> in
>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>
>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>> this one is crucial.
>>
>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The
>> trick
>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
>> if it makes you puke).
>>
>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>
> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
> muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another
> reason someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day.

One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 26th 08, 02:51 AM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>> "DZ" wrote:
>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
>>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
>>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
>>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
>>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
>>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
>>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>>> this one is crucial.
>>>
>>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The trick
>>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
>>> if it makes you puke).
>>>
>>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
>>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
>>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>>
>> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
>> muscle.
>
> I kind of agree. My point was that it is not really crucial. I have
> built muscle that way. Many others did too.
>
>> Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another reason
>> someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day.
>
> Timing of protein intake (i.e. around or even during training) is
> more important.

I have read a number of studies that said protien was actually the most
critical the day after you train. Thats when the muscles are recovering,
rebuilding, and need a steady stream of materials (amino acids) to do so.

Though I do tend to agree with you about post workout being critical as
well.
>
>> I couldn't find anything on intermittant fasting at mayo, or
>> medline.
>
> Because it's spelled intermittent? ;-)
> There is tons on that on PubMed.
> How about this one (Mattson is a leading researcher from the National
> Institute on Aging)
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22mattson%20mp%22[Author]+%22intermittent%20fasting%22

Thankyou for the link. I will do some reading tomorrow.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 26th 08, 02:53 AM
"Steve Freides" > wrote in message
...
> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "DZ" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
>>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
>>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
>>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
>>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
>>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
>>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>>> this one is crucial.
>>>
>>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The trick
>>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
>>> if it makes you puke).
>>>
>>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
>>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
>>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>>
>> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
>> muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another reason
>> someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day.
>
> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an intense
workout. So one who trains regularly is in fact building muscle 24 hours per
day.

Steve Freides
March 26th 08, 12:16 PM
"Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "DZ" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot
>>>>>>more to
>>>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me
>>>>>> build
>>>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the
>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83
>>>>>> kgs.
>>>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there
>>>>>> are in
>>>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If
>>>>> you
>>>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a
>>>>> number
>>>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>>>> this one is crucial.
>>>>
>>>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>>>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The
>>>> trick
>>>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training
>>>> (after,
>>>> if it makes you puke).
>>>>
>>>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known
>>>> to
>>>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of
>>>> eating
>>>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>>>
>>> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
>>> muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another
>>> reason someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day.
>>
>> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>>
> It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an
> intense workout. So one who trains regularly is in fact building
> muscle 24 hours per day.

Refuel <> Rebuild

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 26th 08, 09:56 PM
"Steve Freides" > wrote in message
...
> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "DZ" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me
>>>>>>> build
>>>>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the
>>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83
>>>>>>> kgs.
>>>>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If you
>>>>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to 3
>>>>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a number
>>>>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>>>>> this one is crucial.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is not
>>>>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The trick
>>>>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training (after,
>>>>> if it makes you puke).
>>>>>
>>>>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known to
>>>>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of eating
>>>>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical fitness.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to build
>>>> muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and another
>>>> reason someone training with weights should eat 6 times a day.
>>>
>>> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>>>
>>> -S-
>>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>>
>>>
>> It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an
>> intense workout. So one who trains regularly is in fact building muscle
>> 24 hours per day.
>
> Refuel <> Rebuild
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
They are one and the same. The muscle is actually doing it's building during
recovery.

Steve Freides
March 26th 08, 10:39 PM
"Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Steve Freides" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "DZ" > wrote in
>>>>> message ...
>>>>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot
>>>>>>>>more to
>>>>>>>> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me
>>>>>>>> build
>>>>>>>> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise
>>>>>>>> I need
>>>>>>>> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the
>>>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>>>> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about
>>>>>>>> 83 kgs.
>>>>>>>> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there
>>>>>>>> are in
>>>>>>>> each portion of food?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something else you should think about. Is eat 6 meals a day. If
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> split the same amount of calories up over 6 meals as opposed to
>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>> meals you actually absorb more of the nutrients. There are a
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>> of other benefits but if you are trying to gain some muscle mass
>>>>>>> this one is crucial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's probably easier to gain mass on frequent eating, but it is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> crucial (I eat only in the evening and I'm PORK-CHOP BUFF!). The
>>>>>> trick
>>>>>> is to eat most of the daily food around the time of training
>>>>>> (after,
>>>>>> if it makes you puke).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to the alleged other benefits, have you looked at what's known
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> google as "intermittent fasting"? It's likely that this way of
>>>>>> eating
>>>>>> makes it a sensible compromise between health and physical
>>>>>> fitness.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure this would be a good idea for someone trying to
>>>>> build muscle. Nitrogen balance is a tricky thing to achieve and
>>>>> another reason someone training with weights should eat 6 times a
>>>>> day.
>>>>
>>>> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>>>>
>>>> -S-
>>>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an
>>> intense workout. So one who trains regularly is in fact building
>>> muscle 24 hours per day.
>>
>> Refuel <> Rebuild
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
> They are one and the same. The muscle is actually doing it's building
> during recovery.

Oy.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

someguy[_2_]
March 26th 08, 11:46 PM
wrote:
> I have just started going back to the gym and exercising a lot more to
> build muscle, but I'm unsure on how to eat healthily to help me build
> muscle without resorting to burgers and fried food. I realise I need
> to increase the calories I consume each day, but what is the recommend
> calorie intake I should take. I'm 27, 6'4 (193 cm) and about 83 kgs.
> Also is there an easy way to calculate how many calories there are in
> each portion of food?
>
> Any help would be much appreciated.

post before and when you have the, after, pics

Andrzej Rosa
March 27th 08, 07:59 AM
Dnia 2008-03-26 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>
>> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>>
>>
> It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an intense
> workout.

It's just a rule of thumb, not a law of nature or even a golden rule
(thing which works, but nobody knows why). Another rule of thumb says
that small muscles recover "faster", and it also generally works, though
there is nothing special about small muscles beside their size.

What normally matters is overall amount of trauma which we introduce
through training, so an ability of our whole body to deal with it all is
a limiting factor.

According to 48 hours minimum, training the same muscle to failure several
times a day is a sure method of overdoing things, but it's possible to
recover from that amount of trauma if we are training small muscles. At
worst tendons will give up, but muscles will be fine. You can, for example,
train your grip several times a day to failure and your muscles will be
OK with that. Now I do some rehab for my shoulders in this fashion.
I'm getting stronger every day.

> So one who trains regularly is in fact building muscle 24 hours per
> day.

And how much muscles we are actually building? Half a pound a month? It
shouldn't take half a cow to cover nutritional requirements of building
half a pound of muscles, should it? (I'm relating to this "tricky
nitrogen balance" comment, which I cut out, but it still is nagging me,
obviously. ;-))

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 27th 08, 10:05 PM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2008-03-26 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>
>>> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.
>>>
>>>
>> It takes 48 to 72 hours for muscles to rebuild themselves after an
>> intense
>> workout.
>
> It's just a rule of thumb, not a law of nature or even a golden rule
> (thing which works, but nobody knows why). Another rule of thumb says
> that small muscles recover "faster", and it also generally works, though
> there is nothing special about small muscles beside their size.
>
> What normally matters is overall amount of trauma which we introduce
> through training, so an ability of our whole body to deal with it all is
> a limiting factor.
>
> According to 48 hours minimum, training the same muscle to failure several
> times a day is a sure method of overdoing things, but it's possible to
> recover from that amount of trauma if we are training small muscles. At
> worst tendons will give up, but muscles will be fine. You can, for
> example,
> train your grip several times a day to failure and your muscles will be
> OK with that. Now I do some rehab for my shoulders in this fashion.
> I'm getting stronger every day.
>
>> So one who trains regularly is in fact building muscle 24 hours per
>> day.
>
> And how much muscles we are actually building? Half a pound a month? It
> shouldn't take half a cow to cover nutritional requirements of building
> half a pound of muscles, should it? (I'm relating to this "tricky
> nitrogen balance" comment, which I cut out, but it still is nagging me,
> obviously. ;-))
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

My whole point is that muscle building goes on during recovery. And nitrogen
balance is a very real concern. How much protien it takes to keep that is
debatable and certianly varies somewhat from person to person.

However taking in protien every 3 hours is a very important part of that.
You may find the book SUPERTRAINING by Dr Mel Siff interesting. Him and some
other scientists followed Elite Olympic lifters around for sometime and
discovered they were in positive nitrogen balance on 0.7 grams of protien
per pound of bodyweight per day. The usual recommended 1 gram of protein per
pound of bodyweight per day is certainly ample but the same results can be
achieved through 3/4s of that.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 27th 08, 10:51 PM
"DZ" > wrote in message
.. .
> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>> My whole point is that muscle building goes on during recovery. And
>> nitrogen balance is a very real concern. How much protien it takes
>> to keep that is debatable and certianly varies somewhat from person
>> to person. However taking in protien every 3 hours is a very
>> important part of that.
>
> Are we talking world top performance kind of "important", where even
> minuscule differences matter, or just recreational lifting? If every
> 3-hours or a similar rule was very important, people who take protein
> in once-a-day intervals wouldn't be able to build strength or muscle.

The studies were on world performers but in my mind demonstrated that 0.7
grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a person takes in
all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they would build muscle. From
everything I have read over the past 30 years the body is only able to
absorb 30 to 40 grams of protein in one sitting. The rest of it is passed on
as waste. Thats why frequent meals are so effective. More nutrients are
absorbed from the same amount of food when it is spread out over several
smaller portions during the day.
>
> The thing is that both fasting and resistance training improve protein
> retention. The argument that dietary protein cannot be "stored" is
> often brought up, but that dreaded physics problem of a reservoir with
> the "in" and "out" pipes needs to be modified in a way that the
> diameter of the "out" one always increases as you push more stuff into
> the "in". It dooesn't close completely during hours of fasting, but
> retention does become more efficient.

It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body starts
using that you run into atrophy.

Andrzej Rosa
March 28th 08, 12:07 AM
Dnia 2008-03-27 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>
>
> grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a person takes in
> all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they would build muscle.

Sumo wrestlers eat twice a day. They have the most muscles of all
people (heavyweight bodybuilders included).

> From
> everything I have read over the past 30 years the body is only able to
> absorb 30 to 40 grams of protein in one sitting. The rest of it is
> passed on as waste.

That simply is not true. There are both studies and every day
observation which show, that even if we eat a pound of meat at one
sitting we don't **** concentrated ammonia afterwards. ;-)

> Thats why frequent meals are so effective. More nutrients are
> absorbed from the same amount of food when it is spread out over several
> smaller portions during the day.

Nutrients yes, but not just proteins. Actually this frequent meal
thingy is probably related mostly to glycogen, which happens to be a
carbohydrate.

>> The thing is that both fasting and resistance training improve protein
>> retention. The argument that dietary protein cannot be "stored" is
>> often brought up, but that dreaded physics problem of a reservoir with
>> the "in" and "out" pipes needs to be modified in a way that the
>> diameter of the "out" one always increases as you push more stuff into
>> the "in". It dooesn't close completely during hours of fasting, but
>> retention does become more efficient.
>
> It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body starts
> using that you run into atrophy.

Your body uses proteins to fuel itself when your glycogen stores get low.
It will use fat, but our brain really prefers carbs, so in practice in
the absence of available carbohydrates some body protein will be broken
down for fuel. You may prevent it by eating dietary protein or simply
carbs.

But DZ is right, that if we deny our body some of the luxuries of high
performance fueling it will still function properly, build muscles and
work pretty much just as well.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 01:31 AM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>> If a person takes in all their protein once a day I seriously doubt
>> they would build muscle.
>
> How much muscle are you talking about, and doubt why exactly? I'm not
> a mutant, but I built muscle that way. I eat either after workouts
> (11pm), or before and after. So this gives nearly entire day
> intervals. When I wake up, I drink black or green tea without sugar,
> and take supplements (I've never taken anything for athletic
> enchancement). I can do lunch but only for social occasions.

Out of curiosity how long have you been lifting weights?
I will look at the link. As always I do have an open mind, I will look at
things that counter what I have accepted as truth, sometimes it changes the
way I think, other times it doesn't, but I always learn.

>
> Check out this guy too -
> http://www.arthurdevany.com/2006/12/intermittent_fa_2.html
> http://www.arthurdevany.com/about.html

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 01:43 AM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2008-03-27 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>
>>
>> grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a person takes
>> in
>> all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they would build muscle.
>
> Sumo wrestlers eat twice a day. They have the most muscles of all
> people (heavyweight bodybuilders included).

This I would have to look into. I have a difficult time believing it is
true. From what I have seen Sumo wrestlers are just fat. They use their
weight as leverage to push another wrestler out of a circle.

>
>> From
>> everything I have read over the past 30 years the body is only able to
>> absorb 30 to 40 grams of protein in one sitting. The rest of it is
>> passed on as waste.
>
> That simply is not true. There are both studies and every day
> observation which show, that even if we eat a pound of meat at one
> sitting we don't **** concentrated ammonia afterwards. ;-)

Sometimes I am not so sure..oh yeah..thats when I eat asparagus. However it
is passed through feces as well. Just takes longer.
>
>> Thats why frequent meals are so effective. More nutrients are
>> absorbed from the same amount of food when it is spread out over several
>> smaller portions during the day.
>
> Nutrients yes, but not just proteins. Actually this frequent meal
> thingy is probably related mostly to glycogen, which happens to be a
> carbohydrate.

I specifically said nutrients because I was not trying to communicate it was
just protein. However protein is one of the nutrients and the target for
muscle recovery/building.
>
>>> The thing is that both fasting and resistance training improve protein
>>> retention. The argument that dietary protein cannot be "stored" is
>>> often brought up, but that dreaded physics problem of a reservoir with
>>> the "in" and "out" pipes needs to be modified in a way that the
>>> diameter of the "out" one always increases as you push more stuff into
>>> the "in". It dooesn't close completely during hours of fasting, but
>>> retention does become more efficient.
>>
>> It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body
>> starts
>> using that you run into atrophy.
>
> Your body uses proteins to fuel itself when your glycogen stores get low.

Thats part of why "marathon" weight training workouts are ineffective. Part
of why you want to keep your gym sessions at around an hour or so.
From what I have read over the years, with less intense exercise the body
will use fat rather than protein for fuel when glycogen stores get low.
Which is why a low heart rate cardio workout is effective for cutting up or
weight loss. Intervals cause the body to need fuel too quickly so it falls
back on the easier to burn protein stores (muscle).

> It will use fat, but our brain really prefers carbs, so in practice in
> the absence of available carbohydrates some body protein will be broken

This is also why extremely low carb diets cause irritability.

> down for fuel. You may prevent it by eating dietary protein or simply
> carbs.
>
> But DZ is right, that if we deny our body some of the luxuries of high
> performance fueling it will still function properly, build muscles and
> work pretty much just as well.

I have yet to see a successful bodybuilder or powerlifter get where they are
without taking in a steady stream of protein. I do know that when I was
married my ex would never allow me to take protein supplements. For years my
bench was stuck at 250 pounds. After my divorce I bought some whey, and
changed my diet to where I was taking in at least 20 grams of protein every
3 hours, usually more, my bench (all of my lifts actually) started really
moving. After 18 months I did my 300 pound bench. My squat moved from 325 on
a good day to 400 pounds. (My squat was stuck for years also). My deadlift
went from 400 to 445. The differences in the gym were unreal. All triggered
by the change in diet.

Steve Freides
March 28th 08, 02:44 AM
"Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "DZ" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>> My whole point is that muscle building goes on during recovery. And
>>> nitrogen balance is a very real concern. How much protien it takes
>>> to keep that is debatable and certianly varies somewhat from person
>>> to person. However taking in protien every 3 hours is a very
>>> important part of that.
>>
>> Are we talking world top performance kind of "important", where even
>> minuscule differences matter, or just recreational lifting? If every
>> 3-hours or a similar rule was very important, people who take protein
>> in once-a-day intervals wouldn't be able to build strength or muscle.
>
> The studies were on world performers but in my mind demonstrated that
> 0.7 grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a
> person takes in all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they
> would build muscle. From everything I have read over the past 30 years
> the body is only able to absorb 30 to 40 grams of protein in one
> sitting. The rest of it is passed on as waste. Thats why frequent
> meals are so effective. More nutrients are absorbed from the same
> amount of food when it is spread out over several smaller portions
> during the day.
>>
>> The thing is that both fasting and resistance training improve
>> protein
>> retention. The argument that dietary protein cannot be "stored" is
>> often brought up, but that dreaded physics problem of a reservoir
>> with
>> the "in" and "out" pipes needs to be modified in a way that the
>> diameter of the "out" one always increases as you push more stuff
>> into
>> the "in". It dooesn't close completely during hours of fasting, but
>> retention does become more efficient.
>
> It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body
> starts using that you run into atrophy.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Andrzej Rosa
March 28th 08, 12:57 PM
Dnia 2008-03-28 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>
> "Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dnia 2008-03-27 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>>
>>>
>>> grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a person takes
>>> in
>>> all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they would build muscle.
>>
>> Sumo wrestlers eat twice a day. They have the most muscles of all
>> people (heavyweight bodybuilders included).
>
> This I would have to look into. I have a difficult time believing it is
> true.

http://www.martialedge.net/articles/fitness-and-nutrition/composition-of-sumo-wrestlers-to-athletes-in-combat-and-other-sports/
We conclude that sumo wrestlers have some of the largest percent body
~~~~~~~
fat and fat-free mass and the lowest "aerobic muscle quality" (VO2max
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/SMM), both in combat sport and compared to aerobic and power sport
athletes.

Here sumo wrestler won arm wrestling competition with a bodybuilder.
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=3179
(supposedly, I haven't watched it)

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200422/000020042204A0700650.php
However, only 40% of the wrestlers (n=6) were categorized as obese when
%Fat was used as the reference (%Fat>25%). Furthermore, the body
%composition chart clearly showed that some Sumo wrestlers were no more
%adipose than the non-athlete students. Due to their remarkable muscle
%development, Sumo wrestlers have an excessive fat-free mass.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There was one more study, which I quoted here once, but have no time to
search for now, which analyzed FFM of elite sumo wrestlers, bodybuilders
and powerlifters. Sumo wrestlers had by far the most muscles of the lot,
then powerlifters closely followed by bodybuilders.

> From what I have seen Sumo wrestlers are just fat. They use their
> weight as leverage to push another wrestler out of a circle.

They throw them out of the circle quite often too. They lift each other
every morning, which is resistance training with 500 lbs of weight!
They are fat, of course, but not just fat. Let's say that we have a
500-pounder with generous 30% BF. This guy has 350 lbs of pure FFM!
And they start as fairly normal 200 lbs people; large, for asians, but
nothing special for westerners. They more than double their mass
through training and nutrition.

>> That simply is not true. There are both studies and every day
>> observation which show, that even if we eat a pound of meat at one
>> sitting we don't **** concentrated ammonia afterwards. ;-)
>
> Sometimes I am not so sure..oh yeah..thats when I eat asparagus. However it
> is passed through feces as well. Just takes longer.

Anyway, nitrogen balance isn't as tricky as you seem to believe. Our
bodies will make use of available resources even if they aren't
delivered with clockwork accuracy.

>>> Thats why frequent meals are so effective. More nutrients are
>>> absorbed from the same amount of food when it is spread out over several
>>> smaller portions during the day.
>>
>> Nutrients yes, but not just proteins. Actually this frequent meal
>> thingy is probably related mostly to glycogen, which happens to be a
>> carbohydrate.
>
> I specifically said nutrients because I was not trying to communicate it was
> just protein. However protein is one of the nutrients and the target for
> muscle recovery/building.

I don't believe it. I'm not really in the mood to discuss this topic
with another person, so let's leave it at that.

>>> It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body
>>> starts
>>> using that you run into atrophy.
>>
>> Your body uses proteins to fuel itself when your glycogen stores get low.
>
> Thats part of why "marathon" weight training workouts are ineffective.

Well, they worked for Ahnold, didn't they? It's not very difficult to
replenish your carb sources with simply drinking something sweet
throughout your marathon session.

> Part
> of why you want to keep your gym sessions at around an hour or so.
> From what I have read over the years, with less intense exercise the body
> will use fat rather than protein for fuel when glycogen stores get low.
> Which is why a low heart rate cardio workout is effective for cutting up or
> weight loss. Intervals cause the body to need fuel too quickly so it falls
> back on the easier to burn protein stores (muscle).

That is also mostly wrong, but c'mon. You can't expect us to discuss in
depth every paragraph, can you? ;-)

>> It will use fat, but our brain really prefers carbs, so in practice in
>> the absence of available carbohydrates some body protein will be broken
>
> This is also why extremely low carb diets cause irritability.

Do they? I'd sure feel irritated if I couldn't eat real food! ;-)

>> down for fuel. You may prevent it by eating dietary protein or simply
>> carbs.
>>
>> But DZ is right, that if we deny our body some of the luxuries of high
>> performance fueling it will still function properly, build muscles and
>> work pretty much just as well.
>
> I have yet to see a successful bodybuilder or powerlifter get where they are
> without taking in a steady stream of protein.

They *say* they do, because that is how they earn the living. By
*saying* things. What they do is often very far from what they say they
do.

> I do know that when I was
> married my ex would never allow me to take protein supplements.

That explains why she is your ex. ;-)

> For years my
> bench was stuck at 250 pounds. After my divorce I bought some whey, and
> changed my diet to where I was taking in at least 20 grams of protein every
> 3 hours, usually more, my bench (all of my lifts actually) started really
> moving. After 18 months I did my 300 pound bench. My squat moved from 325 on
> a good day to 400 pounds. (My squat was stuck for years also). My deadlift
> went from 400 to 445. The differences in the gym were unreal. All triggered
> by the change in diet.

I believe you. Especially with this "trigger" part.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 10:43 PM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2008-03-28 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>
>> "Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Dnia 2008-03-27 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> grams of protein per day is all I need to build muscle. If a person
>>>> takes
>>>> in
>>>> all their protein once a day I seriously doubt they would build muscle.
>>>
>>> Sumo wrestlers eat twice a day. They have the most muscles of all
>>> people (heavyweight bodybuilders included).
>>
>> This I would have to look into. I have a difficult time believing it is
>> true.
>
> http://www.martialedge.net/articles/fitness-and-nutrition/composition-of-sumo-wrestlers-to-athletes-in-combat-and-other-sports/
> We conclude that sumo wrestlers have some of the largest percent body
> ~~~~~~~
> fat and fat-free mass and the lowest "aerobic muscle quality" (VO2max
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> /SMM), both in combat sport and compared to aerobic and power sport
> athletes.
>
> Here sumo wrestler won arm wrestling competition with a bodybuilder.
> http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=3179
> (supposedly, I haven't watched it)
>
> http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200422/000020042204A0700650.php
> However, only 40% of the wrestlers (n=6) were categorized as obese when
> %Fat was used as the reference (%Fat>25%). Furthermore, the body
> %composition chart clearly showed that some Sumo wrestlers were no more
> %adipose than the non-athlete students. Due to their remarkable muscle
> %development, Sumo wrestlers have an excessive fat-free mass.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> There was one more study, which I quoted here once, but have no time to
> search for now, which analyzed FFM of elite sumo wrestlers, bodybuilders
> and powerlifters. Sumo wrestlers had by far the most muscles of the lot,
> then powerlifters closely followed by bodybuilders.

I just read your link and found it quite fascinating. I stand corrected.

>
>> From what I have seen Sumo wrestlers are just fat. They use their
>> weight as leverage to push another wrestler out of a circle.
>
> They throw them out of the circle quite often too. They lift each other
> every morning, which is resistance training with 500 lbs of weight!
> They are fat, of course, but not just fat. Let's say that we have a
> 500-pounder with generous 30% BF. This guy has 350 lbs of pure FFM!
> And they start as fairly normal 200 lbs people; large, for asians, but
> nothing special for westerners. They more than double their mass
> through training and nutrition.
>
>>> That simply is not true. There are both studies and every day
>>> observation which show, that even if we eat a pound of meat at one
>>> sitting we don't **** concentrated ammonia afterwards. ;-)
>>
>> Sometimes I am not so sure..oh yeah..thats when I eat asparagus. However
>> it
>> is passed through feces as well. Just takes longer.
>
> Anyway, nitrogen balance isn't as tricky as you seem to believe. Our
> bodies will make use of available resources even if they aren't
> delivered with clockwork accuracy.

Agreed..but the available resources where protein is concerned is muscle
tissue. If you are trying to gain muscle mass or get stronger you don't want
the body to use hard earned muscle.
>
>>>> Thats why frequent meals are so effective. More nutrients are
>>>> absorbed from the same amount of food when it is spread out over
>>>> several
>>>> smaller portions during the day.
>>>
>>> Nutrients yes, but not just proteins. Actually this frequent meal
>>> thingy is probably related mostly to glycogen, which happens to be a
>>> carbohydrate.
>>
>> I specifically said nutrients because I was not trying to communicate it
>> was
>> just protein. However protein is one of the nutrients and the target for
>> muscle recovery/building.
>
> I don't believe it. I'm not really in the mood to discuss this topic
> with another person, so let's leave it at that.
>
>>>> It is my understanding that stored protein is muscle. When the body
>>>> starts
>>>> using that you run into atrophy.
>>>
>>> Your body uses proteins to fuel itself when your glycogen stores get
>>> low.
>>
>> Thats part of why "marathon" weight training workouts are ineffective.
>
> Well, they worked for Ahnold, didn't they? It's not very difficult to
> replenish your carb sources with simply drinking something sweet
> throughout your marathon session.

Arnold used to write about how he cycled his drugs in M&F as did many other
bodybuilders when I first took up weight training. With medicinal aid, yes
marathon workouts can be effective, I was speaking of the drug free or
natural bodybuilder or powerlifter. Unfortunately the studies I have to
prove you should keep workouts at around an hour are in print. Though I
suppose with some research I could find some online. I will take a shot.

>
>> Part
>> of why you want to keep your gym sessions at around an hour or so.
>> From what I have read over the years, with less intense exercise the body
>> will use fat rather than protein for fuel when glycogen stores get low.
>> Which is why a low heart rate cardio workout is effective for cutting up
>> or
>> weight loss. Intervals cause the body to need fuel too quickly so it
>> falls
>> back on the easier to burn protein stores (muscle).
>
> That is also mostly wrong, but c'mon. You can't expect us to discuss in
> depth every paragraph, can you? ;-)
>
>>> It will use fat, but our brain really prefers carbs, so in practice in
>>> the absence of available carbohydrates some body protein will be broken
>>
>> This is also why extremely low carb diets cause irritability.
>
> Do they? I'd sure feel irritated if I couldn't eat real food! ;-)
>
>>> down for fuel. You may prevent it by eating dietary protein or simply
>>> carbs.
>>>
>>> But DZ is right, that if we deny our body some of the luxuries of high
>>> performance fueling it will still function properly, build muscles and
>>> work pretty much just as well.
>>
>> I have yet to see a successful bodybuilder or powerlifter get where they
>> are
>> without taking in a steady stream of protein.
>
> They *say* they do, because that is how they earn the living. By
> *saying* things. What they do is often very far from what they say they
> do.

I know several successful powerlifters personally and have trained with a
few. I can assure you that they all eat in the fashion I have explained. I
have trained alongside one bodybuilder who recently got his pro card. He
also recommends the style of eating I have been aluding to here.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 10:44 PM
"Zen Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message ......
>
>>when I was married my ex would never allow me to take protein supplements.
>
> Jeez, I thought my wife was bossy. Why wouldn't she allow you to take
> protein supps and why did you comply?

If you ask me it was a control thing. I complied to keep the peace. I have
been blissfully divorced for 5 years now and will never marry again.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 11:48 PM
"DZ" > wrote in message
...
> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>> Out of curiosity how long have you been lifting weights?
>
> Since high-school, but only recreationally. I've posted a couple of my
> pullup-related videos here, a weighted chin with added weight of
> slightly above the bodyweight (170 lb), and one with 12 muscle-ups,
> but other than that I can't really claim much of anything out of
> ordinary. Anyway, I think your point of contention was that it is
> impossible to build strength or muscle without nearly constant supply
> of protein: that's what I was arguing with. What professional athletes
> are doing doesn't concern me at all.

That is really impressive. And yes that would be the point of contention,
except I am not so sure I would use the word as impossible, unlikely would
be more like it.
Off to read yet another URL you gave me.

>
> P.S. sometimes I post these handy quotes on protein requirements:
>
> Resistance training
> -------------------
>
> "After an initiation phase of any resistance training program and the
> initial adaptation to the performance of exercise are over, it is hard
> to reconcile that resistance-trained athletes would have markedly
> elevated protein requirements."
>
> "In highly trained powerlifters and bodybuilders, in whom muscle mass
> is high but stable, it is unlikely that their dietary protein
> requirements are elevated much more than those of a sedentary person."
>
> "All things considered, it is abundantly clear that any protein
> requirement set for strength-training athletes is of little relevance"
>
> (quoted from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752).
>
> Endurance training
> ------------------
>
> "It appears that low- and moderate-intensity endurance exercise does
> not affect dietary protein requirements... For the well- trained
> endurance athlete training 4 to 5 d/wk for longer than 60 min, there
> appears to be a very modest increase in dietary protein requirements"
> (quoted from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212749).

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 28th 08, 11:49 PM
"Zen Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Zen Cohen" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message ......
>>>
>>>>when I was married my ex would never allow me to take protein
>>>>supplements.
>>>
>>> Jeez, I thought my wife was bossy. Why wouldn't she allow you to take
>>> protein supps and why did you comply?
>>
>> If you ask me it was a control thing. I complied to keep the peace. I
>> have been blissfully divorced for 5 years now and will never marry again.
>
> Congrats on getting outta that. My wife is assertive and has a bit of a
> control thing herself but she's great aside from that. I think (hope) I'm
> finally getting through to her about her control issues. We'll see.

Good luck with that. Personally I enjoy coming home to the peace and quiet
of an empty house.

Curt
March 29th 08, 12:07 AM
On Mar 25, 10:09 pm, "Steve Freides" >
wrote:
[...]

> One needn't, and indeed can't, build muscle 24 hours per day.

Whatever.

Although I believe Ell Darden when he writes about the best physiques
not necessarily having the best info and that some of the more average
looking people actually having fantastic weight training knowledge and
expertise, I'm not quick to look to you, mr. splits-between-chairs,
for bodybuilding advice. The only bulk you seem to possess is in your
bouffant.

--

Andrzej Rosa
March 29th 08, 12:38 PM
Dnia 2008-03-28 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>
>>>
>>> Sometimes I am not so sure..oh yeah..thats when I eat asparagus. However
>>> it is passed through feces as well. Just takes longer.
>>
>> Anyway, nitrogen balance isn't as tricky as you seem to believe. Our
>> bodies will make use of available resources even if they aren't
>> delivered with clockwork accuracy.
>
> Agreed..but the available resources where protein is concerned is muscle
> tissue. If you are trying to gain muscle mass or get stronger you don't want
> the body to use hard earned muscle.

But you don't need to eat protein to prevent this very mechanism from
happening. Carbs are fine, probably even better.

[...]
>>> Thats part of why "marathon" weight training workouts are ineffective.
>>
>> Well, they worked for Ahnold, didn't they? It's not very difficult to
>> replenish your carb sources with simply drinking something sweet
>> throughout your marathon session.
>
> Arnold used to write about how he cycled his drugs in M&F as did many other
> bodybuilders when I first took up weight training. With medicinal aid, yes
> marathon workouts can be effective, I was speaking of the drug free or
> natural bodybuilder or powerlifter.

Actually drugs do not matter here all that much, as long as you keep
the number of sets and reps constant. Drugs increase your recovery
ability, but they do not increase your glycogen tank, so to speak.

> Unfortunately the studies I have to
> prove you should keep workouts at around an hour are in print. Though I
> suppose with some research I could find some online. I will take a shot.

You can easily workout longer, but then you need to take energy drinks
*and* actually train your body for it. It's possible to increase your
energy reserves through training.

>>> I have yet to see a successful bodybuilder or powerlifter get where they
>>> are without taking in a steady stream of protein.

Westside guys laughed at protein powders. They used to stuff themselves
with junk food too.

>> They *say* they do, because that is how they earn the living. By
>> *saying* things. What they do is often very far from what they say they
>> do.
>
> I know several successful powerlifters personally and have trained with a
> few. I can assure you that they all eat in the fashion I have explained. I
> have trained alongside one bodybuilder who recently got his pro card. He
> also recommends the style of eating I have been aluding to here.

Many meals a day? I actually recommend it too, and even DZ doesn't say
that this style of eating will give worse muscle building results than
his style. But even for bodybuilders real food is what matters, even if
some of them started taking seriously the hype they are used to endorse.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 29th 08, 05:40 PM
"Zen Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "DZ" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Zen Cohen > wrote:
>>> "DZ" wrote:
>>>> Homer Simpson > wrote:
>>>>> Out of curiosity how long have you been lifting weights?
>>>>
>>>> Since high-school, but only recreationally. I've posted a couple of my
>>>> pullup-related videos here, a weighted chin with added weight of
>>>> slightly above the bodyweight (170 lb)
>>>
>>> Nice! Can you repost the vid?
>>
>> Ok, I'll just quote a guy known as Zen Cohen:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/309611c05469d033
>
> Thanks! Motivates me to try some weighted pullups (maybe 40 lbs) next
> workout. BTW, one of the nice things about middle-age-onset dementia is
> that I get to experience so many things for the "first" time more than
> once.
That is very impressive. I have never tried weighted chin ups. I used to do
weighted wide grip pullups. But the most I ever did with that was sets of 5
with 25 pounds.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 29th 08, 06:04 PM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2008-03-28 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I am not so sure..oh yeah..thats when I eat asparagus.
>>>> However
>>>> it is passed through feces as well. Just takes longer.
>>>
>>> Anyway, nitrogen balance isn't as tricky as you seem to believe. Our
>>> bodies will make use of available resources even if they aren't
>>> delivered with clockwork accuracy.
>>
>> Agreed..but the available resources where protein is concerned is muscle
>> tissue. If you are trying to gain muscle mass or get stronger you don't
>> want
>> the body to use hard earned muscle.
>
> But you don't need to eat protein to prevent this very mechanism from
> happening. Carbs are fine, probably even better.
>
> [...]

Carbs are definately good for energy. When I was racing bicycles we would
have one bottle of water and one of Cytomax. We would alternate taking
drinks between the two. The cytomax was for energy for the duration of the
race the water was for replenishing moisture lost in sweat.

However nothing I have ever read agrees with what you said about them being
good for muscle recovery. From what I have read muscle is 70% protein and
30% water. The only way to replenish it is with protein. It is how much
protein that is needed that is in question. I have seen in my own experience
that I needed more than what I was getting from eating a diet of processed
foods my ex would pour out of jars or boxes and heat up.

Along with buying whey after my divorce I also started eating natural foods.
The less processing the better. I do buy frozen vegatables as they keep
longer. But for the most part I go to great lengths to prepare my meals with
as much natural ingredients as I can.

>>>> Thats part of why "marathon" weight training workouts are ineffective.
>>>
>>> Well, they worked for Ahnold, didn't they? It's not very difficult to
>>> replenish your carb sources with simply drinking something sweet
>>> throughout your marathon session.
>>
>> Arnold used to write about how he cycled his drugs in M&F as did many
>> other
>> bodybuilders when I first took up weight training. With medicinal aid,
>> yes
>> marathon workouts can be effective, I was speaking of the drug free or
>> natural bodybuilder or powerlifter.
>
> Actually drugs do not matter here all that much, as long as you keep
> the number of sets and reps constant. Drugs increase your recovery
> ability, but they do not increase your glycogen tank, so to speak.

Have you ever trained around guys using drugs? They most certianly do
matter. The difference is unreal.

>> Unfortunately the studies I have to
>> prove you should keep workouts at around an hour are in print. Though I
>> suppose with some research I could find some online. I will take a shot.
>
> You can easily workout longer, but then you need to take energy drinks
> *and* actually train your body for it. It's possible to increase your
> energy reserves through training.
>
>>>> I have yet to see a successful bodybuilder or powerlifter get where
>>>> they
>>>> are without taking in a steady stream of protein.
>
> Westside guys laughed at protein powders. They used to stuff themselves
> with junk food too.
>
>>> They *say* they do, because that is how they earn the living. By
>>> *saying* things. What they do is often very far from what they say they
>>> do.
>>
>> I know several successful powerlifters personally and have trained with a
>> few. I can assure you that they all eat in the fashion I have explained.
>> I
>> have trained alongside one bodybuilder who recently got his pro card. He
>> also recommends the style of eating I have been aluding to here.
>
> Many meals a day? I actually recommend it too, and even DZ doesn't say
> that this style of eating will give worse muscle building results than
> his style. But even for bodybuilders real food is what matters, even if
> some of them started taking seriously the hype they are used to endorse.

Of course it is real food that matters. I have never said anything to the
contrary. I get my protein from tuna, peanutbutter, yogurt, chicken, salmon,
occasional lean beef, milk, as well as supplementing with protein powder and
protein bars. By the way, I find that by limiting my carb intake I stay
leaner, even though my caloric intake is the same or close to the same. I
choose healthy fats (unsaturated such as olive oil or peanut oil) over carbs
in my overall caloric intake. What carbs I do eat are early in the day. I
probably get most of my carbs from the whole grain bread I make my sandwich
for break at work with, bananas, vegatables, and other fresh fruits I eat in
leu of sweets. Protein powder just makes a quick, caloric economical, way to
get a quick shot in after my workout. I like to blend a frozen diced up
banana in some welches grape juice with a scoop of vanilla flavored whey
post workout.

Andrzej Rosa
March 29th 08, 08:20 PM
Dnia 2008-03-29 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>
> "Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> Agreed..but the available resources where protein is concerned is muscle
>>> tissue. If you are trying to gain muscle mass or get stronger you don't
>>> want
>>> the body to use hard earned muscle.
>>
>> But you don't need to eat protein to prevent this very mechanism from
>> happening. Carbs are fine, probably even better.
>>
>> [...]
>
> Carbs are definately good for energy. When I was racing bicycles we would
> have one bottle of water and one of Cytomax. We would alternate taking
> drinks between the two. The cytomax was for energy for the duration of the
> race the water was for replenishing moisture lost in sweat.
>
> However nothing I have ever read agrees with what you said about them being
> good for muscle recovery. From what I have read muscle is 70% protein and
> 30% water. The only way to replenish it is with protein. It is how much
> protein that is needed that is in question. I have seen in my own experience
> that I needed more than what I was getting from eating a diet of processed
> foods my ex would pour out of jars or boxes and heat up.

A bit more. Sure, I'd agree with that. But not a lot more in most
cases. If protein was so crucial guys on drugs during bulking would
concentrate on taking shakes. Instead most people say that shakes are
important during cutting, not bulking. For me it looks like a means to
control weight, not gain muscle.

> Along with buying whey after my divorce I also started eating natural foods.
> The less processing the better. I do buy frozen vegatables as they keep
> longer. But for the most part I go to great lengths to prepare my meals with
> as much natural ingredients as I can.

I can't eat a dinner without a salad with some raw vegies in it. It's
probably just a habit, but it tastes good to me.

>>> Arnold used to write about how he cycled his drugs in M&F as did many
>>> other
>>> bodybuilders when I first took up weight training. With medicinal aid,
>>> yes
>>> marathon workouts can be effective, I was speaking of the drug free or
>>> natural bodybuilder or powerlifter.
>>
>> Actually drugs do not matter here all that much, as long as you keep
>> the number of sets and reps constant. Drugs increase your recovery
>> ability, but they do not increase your glycogen tank, so to speak.
>
> Have you ever trained around guys using drugs?

Yes.

> They most certianly do matter. The difference is unreal.

They can tolerate more training load, is all. If you train a lot your
body will adjust to the imposed demands. You used to bike a lot. Do
you remember the first rides of the season? I used to be totally
drained and in big need of something sweet fairly soon. Later in the
season I could take a long ride in the afternoon without even eating
anything during the day. I adjusted.

>>> I know several successful powerlifters personally and have trained with a
>>> few. I can assure you that they all eat in the fashion I have explained.
>>> I
>>> have trained alongside one bodybuilder who recently got his pro card. He
>>> also recommends the style of eating I have been aluding to here.
>>
>> Many meals a day? I actually recommend it too, and even DZ doesn't say
>> that this style of eating will give worse muscle building results than
>> his style. But even for bodybuilders real food is what matters, even if
>> some of them started taking seriously the hype they are used to endorse.
>
> Of course it is real food that matters. I have never said anything to the
> contrary. I get my protein from tuna, peanutbutter, yogurt, chicken, salmon,
> occasional lean beef, milk, as well as supplementing with protein powder and
> protein bars. By the way, I find that by limiting my carb intake I stay
> leaner, even though my caloric intake is the same or close to the same. I
> choose healthy fats (unsaturated such as olive oil or peanut oil) over carbs
> in my overall caloric intake. What carbs I do eat are early in the day. I
> probably get most of my carbs from the whole grain bread I make my sandwich
> for break at work with, bananas, vegatables, and other fresh fruits I eat in
> leu of sweets. Protein powder just makes a quick, caloric economical, way to
> get a quick shot in after my workout. I like to blend a frozen diced up
> banana in some welches grape juice with a scoop of vanilla flavored whey
> post workout.

You see? It's the whole picture that made the difference, not introducing
powder or probably even higher amounts of protein.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 31st 08, 12:18 AM
"Zen Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Homer Simpson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> .... I have seen in my own experience
>> that I needed more than what I was getting from eating a diet of
>> processed foods my ex would pour out of jars or boxes and heat up.
>
> Your ex must have been damn good looking.

Actually she was. If I ever get involved agian it will be for substance
rather than external.

Homer Simpson[_2_]
March 31st 08, 12:19 AM
"Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
...
> Dnia 2008-03-29 Homer Simpson napisał(a):
>>
>> "Andrzej Rosa" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Agreed..but the available resources where protein is concerned is
>>>> muscle
>>>> tissue. If you are trying to gain muscle mass or get stronger you don't
>>>> want
>>>> the body to use hard earned muscle.
>>>
>>> But you don't need to eat protein to prevent this very mechanism from
>>> happening. Carbs are fine, probably even better.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> Carbs are definately good for energy. When I was racing bicycles we would
>> have one bottle of water and one of Cytomax. We would alternate taking
>> drinks between the two. The cytomax was for energy for the duration of
>> the
>> race the water was for replenishing moisture lost in sweat.
>>
>> However nothing I have ever read agrees with what you said about them
>> being
>> good for muscle recovery. From what I have read muscle is 70% protein and
>> 30% water. The only way to replenish it is with protein. It is how much
>> protein that is needed that is in question. I have seen in my own
>> experience
>> that I needed more than what I was getting from eating a diet of
>> processed
>> foods my ex would pour out of jars or boxes and heat up.
>
> A bit more. Sure, I'd agree with that. But not a lot more in most
> cases. If protein was so crucial guys on drugs during bulking would
> concentrate on taking shakes. Instead most people say that shakes are
> important during cutting, not bulking. For me it looks like a means to
> control weight, not gain muscle.
>
>> Along with buying whey after my divorce I also started eating natural
>> foods.
>> The less processing the better. I do buy frozen vegatables as they keep
>> longer. But for the most part I go to great lengths to prepare my meals
>> with
>> as much natural ingredients as I can.
>
> I can't eat a dinner without a salad with some raw vegies in it. It's
> probably just a habit, but it tastes good to me.
>
>>>> Arnold used to write about how he cycled his drugs in M&F as did many
>>>> other
>>>> bodybuilders when I first took up weight training. With medicinal aid,
>>>> yes
>>>> marathon workouts can be effective, I was speaking of the drug free or
>>>> natural bodybuilder or powerlifter.
>>>
>>> Actually drugs do not matter here all that much, as long as you keep
>>> the number of sets and reps constant. Drugs increase your recovery
>>> ability, but they do not increase your glycogen tank, so to speak.
>>
>> Have you ever trained around guys using drugs?
>
> Yes.
>
>> They most certianly do matter. The difference is unreal.
>
> They can tolerate more training load, is all. If you train a lot your
> body will adjust to the imposed demands. You used to bike a lot. Do
> you remember the first rides of the season? I used to be totally
> drained and in big need of something sweet fairly soon. Later in the
> season I could take a long ride in the afternoon without even eating
> anything during the day. I adjusted.
>
>>>> I know several successful powerlifters personally and have trained with
>>>> a
>>>> few. I can assure you that they all eat in the fashion I have
>>>> explained.
>>>> I
>>>> have trained alongside one bodybuilder who recently got his pro card.
>>>> He
>>>> also recommends the style of eating I have been aluding to here.
>>>
>>> Many meals a day? I actually recommend it too, and even DZ doesn't say
>>> that this style of eating will give worse muscle building results than
>>> his style. But even for bodybuilders real food is what matters, even if
>>> some of them started taking seriously the hype they are used to endorse.
>>
>> Of course it is real food that matters. I have never said anything to the
>> contrary. I get my protein from tuna, peanutbutter, yogurt, chicken,
>> salmon,
>> occasional lean beef, milk, as well as supplementing with protein powder
>> and
>> protein bars. By the way, I find that by limiting my carb intake I stay
>> leaner, even though my caloric intake is the same or close to the same. I
>> choose healthy fats (unsaturated such as olive oil or peanut oil) over
>> carbs
>> in my overall caloric intake. What carbs I do eat are early in the day. I
>> probably get most of my carbs from the whole grain bread I make my
>> sandwich
>> for break at work with, bananas, vegatables, and other fresh fruits I eat
>> in
>> leu of sweets. Protein powder just makes a quick, caloric economical, way
>> to
>> get a quick shot in after my workout. I like to blend a frozen diced up
>> banana in some welches grape juice with a scoop of vanilla flavored whey
>> post workout.
>
> You see? It's the whole picture that made the difference, not introducing
> powder or probably even higher amounts of protein.
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

I am convinced it was higher amounts of protein that made the difference.
That and the frequency in which I took it in.