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View Full Version : Overall workout load.


R P
September 23rd 10, 07:43 PM
Do any / have any, of you guys ever figured your total in weight
lifted for the complete workout?

It's an old school motivator,..set a goal,..for say your push day & try
to hit it. Then push your numbers up, either with the weight,set,or
reps,....or a combination.

just curious?

Ron

Jason Earl[_2_]
September 23rd 10, 09:07 PM
On Thu, Sep 23 2010, R P wrote:

> Do any / have any, of you guys ever figured your total in weight
> lifted for the complete workout?
>
> It's an old school motivator,..set a goal,..for say your push day &
> try to hit it. Then push your numbers up, either with the
> weight,set,or reps,....or a combination.
>
> just curious?

I've done this before. The software that I use to keep track of my
workouts has a simple spreadsheet mode that works great for this sort of
thing.

Jason

R P
September 23rd 10, 11:29 PM
yeah I use a pencil & paper....it works ok too....<G>

David[_11_]
September 26th 10, 05:42 PM
"R P" > wrote in message
...
> yeah I use a pencil & paper....it works ok too....<G>

Of course! This omputer thing is just a fad we all know that - we will all
be going to pencil and paper soon . ..

R P
September 27th 10, 04:16 PM
seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you go?

As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.

And of course I am an old fart<G>

Jason Earl[_2_]
September 27th 10, 09:35 PM
On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:

> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
> go?

I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use paper
and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is that
I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every once
in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer. So
even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I ended
up typing my information into my computer later.

These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that is
fine with me.

> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>
> And of course I am an old fart<G>

I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.

I really like pretty graphs.

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 1st 10, 11:13 PM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>
>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>> go?
>
> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use paper
> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is that
> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every once
> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer. So
> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I ended
> up typing my information into my computer later.
>
> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that is
> fine with me.
>
>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>
>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>
> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>
> I really like pretty graphs.

My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while they
walk.

Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues.
But, sheeit, I really didn't have to log anything to figger out that
outside-leg arm swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema....
I sorta automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....

The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn data,
imo.

AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless lots of
people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would then turn it
into a "study".
--
EA

>
> Jason

Jason Earl[_2_]
October 2nd 10, 04:06 AM
On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>>
>>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
>>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>>> go?
>>
>> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use paper
>> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is that
>> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
>> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every once
>> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer. So
>> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I ended
>> up typing my information into my computer later.
>>
>> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
>> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that is
>> fine with me.
>>
>>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
>>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>>
>>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>>
>> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
>> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
>> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>>
>> I really like pretty graphs.
>
> My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while
> they walk.

My sense is that people that make bold statements without evidence are
full of crap. :).

> Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
> isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues. But, sheeit, I
> really didn't have to log anything to figger out that outside-leg arm
> swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema.... I sorta
> automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....

Perhaps your memory is better than mine, but I have trouble keeping
track of what I have done from one week to the next without actually
looking at my notes. As an example I finished my clean and press
ladders in just under 27 minutes on Wednesday. I thought that was a
long time, until I checked back and saw that just a week before the same
workout took me 72 minutes.

Throw in any variability at all, and it basically becomes impossible to
remember what you have done previously. For example, I roll two dice to
figure out how long I am going to do swings. Without my notes I would
have no idea if I was making progress or not. With my notes comparing
my current workout with previous workouts is easy.

Not to mention adding what happens when you add an exercise to your
routine that you have not done in a while. In a few weeks I will likely
start deadlifting again. I have not done that for months, and it will
be nice to have a bit of an idea where to start.

> The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn
> data, imo.

Without data you are confined to the only the most obvious correlations.
Stuff like: I get stronger when I lift weights; I smell funny when I
forget to shower.

Gather a bit of data, however, and you can do much better.

> AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless
> lots of people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would
> then turn it into a "study".

While it goes without saying that creating a true scientific experiment
with only one person is difficult, it is less difficult when you are not
worried about proving something, but only searching clues as to what
works for you.

Besides, as far as I can tell the alternative to actually measuring your
progress is to just pretend you know what you are talking about. Your
swing example is perfect. You have made the obvious correlation, swings
make your traps ache, but you have no idea if that translates over time
into something useful.

In a few weeks I will finish my current workout routine and I will spend
a week testing myself. My results might not be generally applicable,
but testing yourself is motivational. Being able to look back over
years of workouts and see your progress is certainly worth the few
minutes it takes to write stuff down.

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 2nd 10, 05:11 AM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>>>
>>>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
>>>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>>>> go?
>>>
>>> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use paper
>>> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is that
>>> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
>>> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every once
>>> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer. So
>>> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I ended
>>> up typing my information into my computer later.
>>>
>>> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
>>> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that is
>>> fine with me.
>>>
>>>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
>>>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>>>
>>>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>>>
>>> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
>>> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
>>> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>>>
>>> I really like pretty graphs.
>>
>> My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while
>> they walk.
>
> My sense is that people that make bold statements without evidence are
> full of crap. :).

Evidence??

I never met a single mutha****a who ran better than me cuz of his heart rate
monitor, or was fitter or stronger than me cuz of a journal-ful of effing
fitness data.

Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME (jason),
do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.

If so, feel free to cite how it has helped.
Now, if yer mind is so far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last
week, well, then mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than
you, with REAL memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.

If you can't remember your routine from last week, then it suggests your
routines have no structure, rational, strategy, or logic behind them. I
remember EVERY step of my sundry pyramids, what worked, didn't work, etc,
cuz it all *makes sense* a priori, and what wasn't borne out is pretty
clear, and is noted for next time.

For example, it becomes very clear, in an ascending pyramid, when to shift
from 20# increments, to 10# increments, to 5# increments -- with a little
trial and error. It also becomes very clear how to gauge the reps to least
compromise the peak 1-RM.
I won't of course remember the details months from now, but such details
would be meaningless then anyway. They are important only for gauging the
next workout, establishing a "local trend", if you will..

And since not much makes sense in all this kettlebell bull**** anyway -- I
think this Pavel guy just had way too much free time on his hands -- mebbe
you do really think it needs chronicling, when it reality it just means that
it's a kind of fitness gibberish. Or, it's like someone who has to wrap a
ruler around a circle, cuz he dudn't know C=2pi*r.

I don't know why the following comes to mind, but all this chronicling
bull**** reminds me of asshole bikers (kawaski and 10 speeds alike), who
dress up in matched spandex/helmets, which matches the paint on their
ride..... I just can never get over dat ****, and the fact that these are
grown effing *adults*. goodgawd.....

>
>> Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
>> isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues. But, sheeit, I
>> really didn't have to log anything to figger out that outside-leg arm
>> swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema.... I sorta
>> automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....
>
> Perhaps your memory is better than mine, but I have trouble keeping
> track of what I have done from one week to the next without actually
> looking at my notes. As an example I finished my clean and press
> ladders in just under 27 minutes on Wednesday. I thought that was a
> long time, until I checked back and saw that just a week before the same
> workout took me 72 minutes.
>
> Throw in any variability at all, and it basically becomes impossible to
> remember what you have done previously. For example, I roll two dice to
> figure out how long I am going to do swings. Without my notes I would
> have no idea if I was making progress or not. With my notes comparing
> my current workout with previous workouts is easy.
>
> Not to mention adding what happens when you add an exercise to your
> routine that you have not done in a while. In a few weeks I will likely
> start deadlifting again. I have not done that for months, and it will
> be nice to have a bit of an idea where to start.
>
>> The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn
>> data, imo.
>
> Without data you are confined to the only the most obvious correlations.
> Stuff like: I get stronger when I lift weights; I smell funny when I
> forget to shower.
>
> Gather a bit of data, however, and you can do much better.
>
>> AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless
>> lots of people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would
>> then turn it into a "study".
>
> While it goes without saying that creating a true scientific experiment
> with only one person is difficult, it is less difficult when you are not
> worried about proving something, but only searching clues as to what
> works for you.
>
> Besides, as far as I can tell the alternative to actually measuring your
> progress is to just pretend you know what you are talking about. Your
> swing example is perfect. You have made the obvious correlation, swings
> make your traps ache, but you have no idea if that translates over time
> into something useful.
>
> In a few weeks I will finish my current workout routine and I will spend
> a week testing myself. My results might not be generally applicable,
> but testing yourself is motivational. Being able to look back over
> years of workouts and see your progress is certainly worth the few
> minutes it takes to write stuff down.

I think you will be hardpressed to cite anything meaningful you actually
learned via logging effing fitness data, visavis simply grokking cause and
effect.

Now, it COULD be that if you logged enough of it, and really analyzed it
through multivariate analysis programs, you could glean a little sumpn
sumpn, but I don't think anyone here is up for that. Not even researchers,
who, with all that analytic horsepower, STILL get it fukn wrong....

Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom scales,
HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down "data", but that was
for specific a priori prepuces.

My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's sake,
and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he proly saves his
sweat from every personal best, labels it in a bottle, and displays it on
his mantle, with an information placard stuck below, like in a nature walk.

Now, if you were training for some event (and that has always had
questionable philosophical agendas, imo), and you are doing persnickety ****
like timing 1-RMs for competition day, or carb loading, **** like that,
where it's all in the details, and future success hinges on yesterday's
data, then OK.... but man, unless yer gettin paid fer alladat, why fukn
bother??? Oh, yeah, the winning thing.... I keep forgetting....

--
EA


>
> Jason

Jason Earl[_2_]
October 2nd 10, 04:28 PM
On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>>
>>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it make
>>>>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>>>>> go?
>>>>
>>>> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use paper
>>>> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is that
>>>> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
>>>> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every once
>>>> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer. So
>>>> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I ended
>>>> up typing my information into my computer later.
>>>>
>>>> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
>>>> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that is
>>>> fine with me.
>>>>
>>>>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type in
>>>>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>>>>
>>>> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
>>>> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
>>>> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>>>>
>>>> I really like pretty graphs.
>>>
>>> My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while
>>> they walk.
>>
>> My sense is that people that make bold statements without evidence are
>> full of crap. :).
>
> Evidence??
>
> I never met a single mutha****a who ran better than me cuz of his
> heart rate monitor, or was fitter or stronger than me cuz of a
> journal-ful of effing fitness data.

That's an interesting statement. I would bet that you have met lots of
people that run better than you, and/or are stronger than you. I would
bet that a significant number of the people that are stronger or faster
than you keep a journal of their workouts.

Perhaps there is some useful correlation there.

From my experience, serious athletes (ie. the ones that are way better
than me) tend to be religious about their fitness journal.

> Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME
> (jason), do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.

Precisely, I obviously feel that this information is useful enough that
I continue to gather it. In fact, the amount of information that I
gather has increased over time.

> If so, feel free to cite how it has helped. Now, if yer mind is so
> far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last week, well, then
> mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than you, with REAL
> memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.

Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
per week, I lost 9 pounds.

I can generally remember how much I lifted from one week to the next,
but I generally can not remember how long it took (which I also track).
My guess is that you are not even worried about this variable, but I
have found it to be fairly critical. It is easy to get in one more rep,
or add a bit of weight, if you allow yourself more time to rest. If you
don't keep track of this sort of thing it is easy to believe that you
are making progress when what you are really doing is getting lazier
about starting your next set on time.

> If you can't remember your routine from last week, then it suggests
> your routines have no structure, rational, strategy, or logic behind
> them. I remember EVERY step of my sundry pyramids, what worked,
> didn't work, etc, cuz it all *makes sense* a priori, and what wasn't
> borne out is pretty clear, and is noted for next time.

I have found that sometimes things "make sense" on paper, but don't
actually work. For example, trying to run 3 miles in 30 minutes by
running 30 minutes twice a week and decreasing the time I spent walking
did not work very well for me. I made more progress in one month spent
running for longer periods (at a lower speed) than I made in two months
of running just the 30 minutes.

If you don't keep track of what you do and try to quantify it then there
is no chance that you will ever question your original beliefs (unless,
of course, there are obvious glaring problems with your original
beliefs).

> For example, it becomes very clear, in an ascending pyramid, when to
> shift from 20# increments, to 10# increments, to 5# increments -- with
> a little trial and error. It also becomes very clear how to gauge the
> reps to least compromise the peak 1-RM.

Notes are more helpful over longer periods of time than this. I did not
need my notes to know when to start pressing my heavier kettlebell. I
started pressing it the second I could do a triple.

My notes will probably be useful, the next time I make a jump in
kettlebell size, some time in the future.

> I won't of course remember the details months from now, but such
> details would be meaningless then anyway. They are important only for
> gauging the next workout, establishing a "local trend", if you will..

So you believe that the local trend is important, but the larger trends
are not. Some investors feel that way about their money, but none of
the *good* investors feel that way.

Why should the investment I make in my own personal fitness be any
different? The body is a complex system, and almost none of the
progress that I make is linear. If I relied solely on short term trends
I would almost certainly miss things.

> And since not much makes sense in all this kettlebell bull**** anyway
> -- I think this Pavel guy just had way too much free time on his hands
> -- mebbe you do really think it needs chronicling, when it reality it
> just means that it's a kind of fitness gibberish. Or, it's like
> someone who has to wrap a ruler around a circle, cuz he dudn't know
> C=2pi*r.
>
> I don't know why the following comes to mind, but all this chronicling
> bull**** reminds me of asshole bikers (kawaski and 10 speeds alike),
> who dress up in matched spandex/helmets, which matches the paint on
> their ride..... I just can never get over dat ****, and the fact that
> these are grown effing *adults*. goodgawd.....

When I used to cycle I noticed that most of the guys that were
considerably faster than I was tended to have nice equipment (that
matched). My equipment did not match, as it was a grab bag assortment
of what a poor college student could afford. Interestingly enough, as I
got to know the guys with the matching equipment they tended to be poor
college students too. They just thought that cycling was important
enough that they were willing to sacrifice to get the best equipment.

I personally do not think that the equipment was the deciding factor,
but rather that their dedication was the deciding factor. However,
there was clearly a correlation between dedication and good equipment.

>>> Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
>>> isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues. But, sheeit, I
>>> really didn't have to log anything to figger out that outside-leg arm
>>> swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema.... I sorta
>>> automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....
>>
>> Perhaps your memory is better than mine, but I have trouble keeping
>> track of what I have done from one week to the next without actually
>> looking at my notes. As an example I finished my clean and press
>> ladders in just under 27 minutes on Wednesday. I thought that was a
>> long time, until I checked back and saw that just a week before the
>> same workout took me 72 minutes.
>>
>> Throw in any variability at all, and it basically becomes impossible
>> to remember what you have done previously. For example, I roll two
>> dice to figure out how long I am going to do swings. Without my
>> notes I would have no idea if I was making progress or not. With my
>> notes comparing my current workout with previous workouts is easy.
>>
>> Not to mention adding what happens when you add an exercise to your
>> routine that you have not done in a while. In a few weeks I will
>> likely start deadlifting again. I have not done that for months, and
>> it will be nice to have a bit of an idea where to start.
>>
>>> The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn
>>> data, imo.
>>
>> Without data you are confined to the only the most obvious correlations.
>> Stuff like: I get stronger when I lift weights; I smell funny when I
>> forget to shower.
>>
>> Gather a bit of data, however, and you can do much better.
>>
>>> AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless
>>> lots of people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would
>>> then turn it into a "study".
>>
>> While it goes without saying that creating a true scientific experiment
>> with only one person is difficult, it is less difficult when you are not
>> worried about proving something, but only searching clues as to what
>> works for you.
>>
>> Besides, as far as I can tell the alternative to actually measuring your
>> progress is to just pretend you know what you are talking about. Your
>> swing example is perfect. You have made the obvious correlation, swings
>> make your traps ache, but you have no idea if that translates over time
>> into something useful.
>>
>> In a few weeks I will finish my current workout routine and I will spend
>> a week testing myself. My results might not be generally applicable,
>> but testing yourself is motivational. Being able to look back over
>> years of workouts and see your progress is certainly worth the few
>> minutes it takes to write stuff down.
>
> I think you will be hardpressed to cite anything meaningful you
> actually learned via logging effing fitness data, visavis simply
> grokking cause and effect.
>
> Now, it COULD be that if you logged enough of it, and really analyzed
> it through multivariate analysis programs, you could glean a little
> sumpn sumpn, but I don't think anyone here is up for that. Not even
> researchers, who, with all that analytic horsepower, STILL get it fukn
> wrong....

My experience has shown that there is no need to toss my data into R for
it to speak to me. Although I certainly could. The real key is simply
logging as much data as possible. What did I do, how long did it take?
How much did I weigh, what did I eat, how did I feel?

For example, my weight graph shows that my weight loss has plateaued
over the last few weeks. My initial reaction was that my exercise plan
was no longer effective, and that perhaps I needed a change. This makes
a lot of sense. Since I have shifted to pressing the heavier kettlebell
my entire exercise regime for the week consists of about 70 cleans and
presses and about 21 minutes of heavy kettlebell swings and snatches.
I *might* get in a two mile run, and I might do 40 minutes of Turbo
Sculpt. That's not a whole lot of work.

However, after looking at my food log I realized that there is a more
likely explanation. My weight loss stopped at about the same time as my
buddy started bringing donuts in to work on Fridays. The local donut
shop has a delicious peanut-butter-and-jelly-filled bear claw, and I
simply can not say no to them.

> Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom
> scales, HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down "data",
> but that was for specific a priori prepuces.
>
> My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's
> sake, and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he
> proly saves his sweat from every personal best, labels it in a bottle,
> and displays it on his mantle, with an information placard stuck
> below, like in a nature walk.

Make fun of Freides if you want, but Freides is a perfect example of
someone that makes goals and then *achieves* them.

I would gladly save sweat from my personal bests if it meant that I got
more personal bests (or even better if it helped me achieve personal
bests that were competitive on a state or national scale).

Freides is someone that I consider to be a "serious" athlete, and it
does not surprise me at all that he is serious about tracking his
efforts.

> Now, if you were training for some event (and that has always had
> questionable philosophical agendas, imo), and you are doing
> persnickety **** like timing 1-RMs for competition day, or carb
> loading, **** like that, where it's all in the details, and future
> success hinges on yesterday's data, then OK.... but man, unless yer
> gettin paid fer alladat, why fukn bother??? Oh, yeah, the winning
> thing.... I keep forgetting....

Writing stuff down is easy, especially compared to lifting heavy stuff.
Why not take the time?

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 2nd 10, 05:40 PM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>>>>>> go?
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use
>>>>> paper
>>>>> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is
>>>>> that
>>>>> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
>>>>> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every
>>>>> once
>>>>> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer.
>>>>> So
>>>>> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I
>>>>> ended
>>>>> up typing my information into my computer later.
>>>>>
>>>>> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
>>>>> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that
>>>>> is
>>>>> fine with me.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
>>>>> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
>>>>> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really like pretty graphs.
>>>>
>>>> My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while
>>>> they walk.
>>>
>>> My sense is that people that make bold statements without evidence are
>>> full of crap. :).
>>
>> Evidence??
>>
>> I never met a single mutha****a who ran better than me cuz of his
>> heart rate monitor, or was fitter or stronger than me cuz of a
>> journal-ful of effing fitness data.
>
> That's an interesting statement. I would bet that you have met lots of
> people that run better than you, and/or are stronger than you. I would
> bet that a significant number of the people that are stronger or faster
> than you keep a journal of their workouts.
>
> Perhaps there is some useful correlation there.

Yeah, like Zero -- Nary a one, to my knowledge.
I knew ONE guy at the Bally's I used to frequent, who walked around with an
effing notebook, and a motorcycle chain, which he used to attach plates to
the machines (selectorized weight stacks), since he could max them all out.
Heh, he was proly 25-30 y.o., his mom would take him to the gym....
Figgers, eh?


>
> From my experience, serious athletes (ie. the ones that are way better
> than me) tend to be religious about their fitness journal.

Well, I already made that concession, if by serious athalete you mean
competitive.
But most serious athaletes are assholes, anyway....

>
>> Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME
>> (jason), do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.
>
> Precisely, I obviously feel that this information is useful enough that
> I continue to gather it. In fact, the amount of information that I
> gather has increased over time.
>
>> If so, feel free to cite how it has helped. Now, if yer mind is so
>> far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last week, well, then
>> mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than you, with REAL
>> memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.
>
> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
> per week, I lost 9 pounds.

You needed a journal to wake you up to this?

>
> I can generally remember how much I lifted from one week to the next,
> but I generally can not remember how long it took (which I also track).
> My guess is that you are not even worried about this variable, but I
> have found it to be fairly critical. It is easy to get in one more rep,
> or add a bit of weight, if you allow yourself more time to rest. If you
> don't keep track of this sort of thing it is easy to believe that you
> are making progress when what you are really doing is getting lazier
> about starting your next set on time.

Again, too many do this stuff without a cognitive framework, other than how
to get fukn big or strong.
Very few factor in efficiency, or bang fer yer exercise buck.

It's sorta like a asshole who needs to torque down every fukn bolt he
tightens, cuz he is just clueless to the visceral feedback of a nut/bolt
"sinking down", and strips them left and right. Heh, Lenny, in Of mice and
men....

Or people who have swung axes and kettlebells, and think the swing is the
same.
And then, who concede they were clueless, and THEN go back to insisting
that they ARE the same....

Holy ****, you might need to do more than keep a journal, I think you ought
to pay a scribe to walk with you 24/7.
Or in Friedes case, a fukn biographer....

>
>> If you can't remember your routine from last week, then it suggests
>> your routines have no structure, rational, strategy, or logic behind
>> them. I remember EVERY step of my sundry pyramids, what worked,
>> didn't work, etc, cuz it all *makes sense* a priori, and what wasn't
>> borne out is pretty clear, and is noted for next time.
>
> I have found that sometimes things "make sense" on paper, but don't
> actually work. For example, trying to run 3 miles in 30 minutes by
> running 30 minutes twice a week and decreasing the time I spent walking
> did not work very well for me. I made more progress in one month spent
> running for longer periods (at a lower speed) than I made in two months
> of running just the 30 minutes.

You needed a journal for that?

>
> If you don't keep track of what you do and try to quantify it then there
> is no chance that you will ever question your original beliefs (unless,
> of course, there are obvious glaring problems with your original
> beliefs).
>
>> For example, it becomes very clear, in an ascending pyramid, when to
>> shift from 20# increments, to 10# increments, to 5# increments -- with
>> a little trial and error. It also becomes very clear how to gauge the
>> reps to least compromise the peak 1-RM.
>
> Notes are more helpful over longer periods of time than this. I did not
> need my notes to know when to start pressing my heavier kettlebell. I
> started pressing it the second I could do a triple.
>
> My notes will probably be useful, the next time I make a jump in
> kettlebell size, some time in the future.
>
>> I won't of course remember the details months from now, but such
>> details would be meaningless then anyway. They are important only for
>> gauging the next workout, establishing a "local trend", if you will..
>
> So you believe that the local trend is important, but the larger trends
> are not. Some investors feel that way about their money, but none of
> the *good* investors feel that way.

They use different dartboards.
And blindfolds.

>
> Why should the investment I make in my own personal fitness be any
> different? The body is a complex system, and almost none of the
> progress that I make is linear. If I relied solely on short term trends
> I would almost certainly miss things.
>
>> And since not much makes sense in all this kettlebell bull**** anyway
>> -- I think this Pavel guy just had way too much free time on his hands
>> -- mebbe you do really think it needs chronicling, when it reality it
>> just means that it's a kind of fitness gibberish. Or, it's like
>> someone who has to wrap a ruler around a circle, cuz he dudn't know
>> C=2pi*r.
>>
>> I don't know why the following comes to mind, but all this chronicling
>> bull**** reminds me of asshole bikers (kawaski and 10 speeds alike),
>> who dress up in matched spandex/helmets, which matches the paint on
>> their ride..... I just can never get over dat ****, and the fact that
>> these are grown effing *adults*. goodgawd.....
>
> When I used to cycle I noticed that most of the guys that were
> considerably faster than I was tended to have nice equipment (that
> matched). My equipment did not match, as it was a grab bag assortment
> of what a poor college student could afford. Interestingly enough, as I
> got to know the guys with the matching equipment they tended to be poor
> college students too. They just thought that cycling was important
> enough that they were willing to sacrifice to get the best equipment.
>
> I personally do not think that the equipment was the deciding factor,
> but rather that their dedication was the deciding factor. However,
> there was clearly a correlation between dedication and good equipment.
>
>>>> Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
>>>> isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues. But, sheeit, I
>>>> really didn't have to log anything to figger out that outside-leg arm
>>>> swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema.... I sorta
>>>> automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....
>>>
>>> Perhaps your memory is better than mine, but I have trouble keeping
>>> track of what I have done from one week to the next without actually
>>> looking at my notes. As an example I finished my clean and press
>>> ladders in just under 27 minutes on Wednesday. I thought that was a
>>> long time, until I checked back and saw that just a week before the
>>> same workout took me 72 minutes.
>>>
>>> Throw in any variability at all, and it basically becomes impossible
>>> to remember what you have done previously. For example, I roll two
>>> dice to figure out how long I am going to do swings. Without my
>>> notes I would have no idea if I was making progress or not. With my
>>> notes comparing my current workout with previous workouts is easy.
>>>
>>> Not to mention adding what happens when you add an exercise to your
>>> routine that you have not done in a while. In a few weeks I will
>>> likely start deadlifting again. I have not done that for months, and
>>> it will be nice to have a bit of an idea where to start.
>>>
>>>> The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn
>>>> data, imo.
>>>
>>> Without data you are confined to the only the most obvious correlations.
>>> Stuff like: I get stronger when I lift weights; I smell funny when I
>>> forget to shower.
>>>
>>> Gather a bit of data, however, and you can do much better.
>>>
>>>> AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless
>>>> lots of people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would
>>>> then turn it into a "study".
>>>
>>> While it goes without saying that creating a true scientific experiment
>>> with only one person is difficult, it is less difficult when you are not
>>> worried about proving something, but only searching clues as to what
>>> works for you.
>>>
>>> Besides, as far as I can tell the alternative to actually measuring your
>>> progress is to just pretend you know what you are talking about. Your
>>> swing example is perfect. You have made the obvious correlation, swings
>>> make your traps ache, but you have no idea if that translates over time
>>> into something useful.
>>>
>>> In a few weeks I will finish my current workout routine and I will spend
>>> a week testing myself. My results might not be generally applicable,
>>> but testing yourself is motivational. Being able to look back over
>>> years of workouts and see your progress is certainly worth the few
>>> minutes it takes to write stuff down.
>>
>> I think you will be hardpressed to cite anything meaningful you
>> actually learned via logging effing fitness data, visavis simply
>> grokking cause and effect.
>>
>> Now, it COULD be that if you logged enough of it, and really analyzed
>> it through multivariate analysis programs, you could glean a little
>> sumpn sumpn, but I don't think anyone here is up for that. Not even
>> researchers, who, with all that analytic horsepower, STILL get it fukn
>> wrong....
>
> My experience has shown that there is no need to toss my data into R for
> it to speak to me. Although I certainly could. The real key is simply
> logging as much data as possible. What did I do, how long did it take?
> How much did I weigh, what did I eat, how did I feel?
>
> For example, my weight graph shows that my weight loss has plateaued
> over the last few weeks. My initial reaction was that my exercise plan
> was no longer effective, and that perhaps I needed a change. This makes
> a lot of sense. Since I have shifted to pressing the heavier kettlebell
> my entire exercise regime for the week consists of about 70 cleans and
> presses and about 21 minutes of heavy kettlebell swings and snatches.
> I *might* get in a two mile run, and I might do 40 minutes of Turbo
> Sculpt. That's not a whole lot of work.
>
> However, after looking at my food log I realized that there is a more
> likely explanation. My weight loss stopped at about the same time as my
> buddy started bringing donuts in to work on Fridays. The local donut
> shop has a delicious peanut-butter-and-jelly-filled bear claw, and I
> simply can not say no to them.

Well, you DO need a journal, then. goodgawd....
If eating a P&B donut dudnt set off bells and whistles in your very
weight/health/fitness conscious head, then indeed ax swings and kb swings
must appear identical.

Also, plateaus are interesting. Eventually your weight WILL plateau....
but then mebbe not....
How will you know what is right? 1.5% bodyfat?? Bones sticking out? Any
concrete ""goals""??
On what basis??

The problem with "goals" (a la your mention of Friedes below) is that too
often they are made in a vacuum, or under the influence of aesthetic
assholes or philistines.
Very few people are willing or able to view the health/fitness process as a
series of equilibriums, for which there is ultimately come cost/benefit
analysis, that varies from individual to individual.

I personally have no goals. I'm more interested in simply assessing cause
and effect from various strategies.
If Sisco's stuff works, great, I'll be benching 250 in no time. If not, no
biggie.
If my own diet strategy works, I'll have abs in no time, with absolutely no
loss of muscle. If it doesn't, no biggie whatsoever.

In a nutshell, I have X minutes a week in which to expend calories -- what
is the best way to do this?
To say, I'm gonna weigh Y, lift Z, and have measurements W by date XXX is
simply wagging the dog by the tail.
It ultimately is not rational, it is forcing an unnatural, most often
un-maintainable equilibrium.

Rather, one needs to constantly experiment, and see what happens. The only
problem with this is that is presumes some kind of clarity, a clarity which
is almost impossible to obtain in the modern day Zeitgeist of the Mind****.

Heh, kettlebells being just one ultra-clear example.

>
>> Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom
>> scales, HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down "data",
>> but that was for specific a priori prepuces.
>>
>> My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's
>> sake, and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he
>> proly saves his sweat from every personal best, labels it in a bottle,
>> and displays it on his mantle, with an information placard stuck
>> below, like in a nature walk.
>
> Make fun of Freides if you want, but Freides is a perfect example of
> someone that makes goals and then *achieves* them.

Largely because he has nothing better to do.

>
> I would gladly save sweat from my personal bests if it meant that I got
> more personal bests (or even better if it helped me achieve personal
> bests that were competitive on a state or national scale).
>

Oh please, give me a break....


> Freides is someone that I consider to be a "serious" athlete, and it
> does not surprise me at all that he is serious about tracking his
> efforts.

Serious athlete indeed.
And he does excel in one Big Event: Himself.


>
>> Now, if you were training for some event (and that has always had
>> questionable philosophical agendas, imo), and you are doing
>> persnickety **** like timing 1-RMs for competition day, or carb
>> loading, **** like that, where it's all in the details, and future
>> success hinges on yesterday's data, then OK.... but man, unless yer
>> gettin paid fer alladat, why fukn bother??? Oh, yeah, the winning
>> thing.... I keep forgetting....
>
> Writing stuff down is easy, especially compared to lifting heavy stuff.
> Why not take the time?

Because for 99.9% of the Exercising Pubic, it's pointless. Just like HRMs
are pointless, unless you are actually conducting experiments.

It's either a conjob foisted on the gullible, largely for the purposes of
justifying some sort of conmanship sales hype, or it just reflects a
haphazard "strategy" that the misguided think is going to sort **** out,
upon study, review, and analysis.
If you (pl you) knew what you were doing, your efforts would generate
near-immediate understanding of the workability of the strategy at hand.

It's like a cabbie who knows an area, vs. a cabbie who needs a map AND a
magnifying glass.
Pre-GPS, of course, where now no one needs to know a g-d thing -- heh, as
long as the maps are updated.....

--
EA

>
> Jason

Jason Earl[_2_]
October 2nd 10, 10:51 PM
On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

[...]

>> That's an interesting statement. I would bet that you have met lots
>> of people that run better than you, and/or are stronger than you. I
>> would bet that a significant number of the people that are stronger
>> or faster than you keep a journal of their workouts.
>>
>> Perhaps there is some useful correlation there.
>
> Yeah, like Zero -- Nary a one, to my knowledge. I knew ONE guy at the
> Bally's I used to frequent, who walked around with an effing notebook,
> and a motorcycle chain, which he used to attach plates to the machines
> (selectorized weight stacks), since he could max them all out. Heh,
> he was proly 25-30 y.o., his mom would take him to the gym....
> Figgers, eh?

So you are the strongest guy you know, then. I find that somewhat hard
to believe. You've shared very little about how much you lift, but when
you have shared stats on your actual lifts they've been decent, but
hardly superhuman.

>> From my experience, serious athletes (ie. the ones that are way
>> better than me) tend to be religious about their fitness journal.
>
> Well, I already made that concession, if by serious athalete you mean
> competitive. But most serious athaletes are assholes, anyway....
>
>>
>>> Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME
>>> (jason), do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.
>>
>> Precisely, I obviously feel that this information is useful enough that
>> I continue to gather it. In fact, the amount of information that I
>> gather has increased over time.
>>
>>> If so, feel free to cite how it has helped. Now, if yer mind is so
>>> far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last week, well, then
>>> mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than you, with REAL
>>> memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.
>>
>> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
>> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
>> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
>> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
>> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
>> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
>> per week, I lost 9 pounds.
>
> You needed a journal to wake you up to this?
>
>>
>> I can generally remember how much I lifted from one week to the next,
>> but I generally can not remember how long it took (which I also
>> track). My guess is that you are not even worried about this
>> variable, but I have found it to be fairly critical. It is easy to
>> get in one more rep, or add a bit of weight, if you allow yourself
>> more time to rest. If you don't keep track of this sort of thing it
>> is easy to believe that you are making progress when what you are
>> really doing is getting lazier about starting your next set on time.
>
> Again, too many do this stuff without a cognitive framework, other
> than how to get fukn big or strong. Very few factor in efficiency, or
> bang fer yer exercise buck.
>
> It's sorta like a asshole who needs to torque down every fukn bolt he
> tightens, cuz he is just clueless to the visceral feedback of a
> nut/bolt "sinking down", and strips them left and right. Heh, Lenny,
> in Of mice and men....
>
> Or people who have swung axes and kettlebells, and think the swing is
> the same. And then, who concede they were clueless, and THEN go back
> to insisting that they ARE the same....

I am beginning to see why it is that you would be so resistant to
writing things down. Your reading comprehension is clearly low enough
that writing things down does not help you understand them later.

We've had this discussion already. I have made it perfectly clear the
ways in which I believe these exercises are similar and how they are, at
the same time different. If the idea that exercises can have both
similarities and dissimilarities is foreign to you then that's fine, but
there is no reason to continue to exhibit your poor comprehension.

[...]

>> I have found that sometimes things "make sense" on paper, but don't
>> actually work. For example, trying to run 3 miles in 30 minutes by
>> running 30 minutes twice a week and decreasing the time I spent
>> walking did not work very well for me. I made more progress in one
>> month spent running for longer periods (at a lower speed) than I made
>> in two months of running just the 30 minutes.
>
> You needed a journal for that?

As a matter of fact, I did. I thought it perfectly reasonable to think
that I could improve the amount of distance I could run in 30 minutes by
running 30 minutes. To a certain extent it did work. I made progress.
I simply made more progress at running for 30 minutes when my minimum
run was an hour.

That may seem straightforward to you, but it certainly did not seem
straightforward to me. It is like trying to get better at lifting 100
pounds by lifting 50 pounds (which may work, I do not know).

[...]

>> My experience has shown that there is no need to toss my data into R
>> for it to speak to me. Although I certainly could. The real key is
>> simply logging as much data as possible. What did I do, how long did
>> it take? How much did I weigh, what did I eat, how did I feel?
>>
>> For example, my weight graph shows that my weight loss has plateaued
>> over the last few weeks. My initial reaction was that my exercise
>> plan was no longer effective, and that perhaps I needed a change.
>> This makes a lot of sense. Since I have shifted to pressing the
>> heavier kettlebell my entire exercise regime for the week consists of
>> about 70 cleans and presses and about 21 minutes of heavy kettlebell
>> swings and snatches. I *might* get in a two mile run, and I might do
>> 40 minutes of Turbo Sculpt. That's not a whole lot of work.
>>
>> However, after looking at my food log I realized that there is a more
>> likely explanation. My weight loss stopped at about the same time as
>> my buddy started bringing donuts in to work on Fridays. The local
>> donut shop has a delicious peanut-butter-and-jelly-filled bear claw,
>> and I simply can not say no to them.
>
> Well, you DO need a journal, then. goodgawd.... If eating a P&B
> donut dudnt set off bells and whistles in your very
> weight/health/fitness conscious head, then indeed ax swings and kb
> swings must appear identical.

I am not sure, the amount of calories different should not make that
much of a difference. Then again, it did not make sense that I lost
weight faster while working out far less when I started doing kettlebell
swings.

> Also, plateaus are interesting. Eventually your weight WILL
> plateau.... but then mebbe not.... How will you know what is right?
> 1.5% bodyfat?? Bones sticking out? Any concrete ""goals""?? On what
> basis??

Right now my goal is to get to 200 pounds. My strategy, so far, has
been to eat whatever I want, and make sure I write it down in my
Journal. Doing this I have lost 30 pounds while eating tons of donuts.

> The problem with "goals" (a la your mention of Friedes below) is that
> too often they are made in a vacuum, or under the influence of
> aesthetic assholes or philistines. Very few people are willing or
> able to view the health/fitness process as a series of equilibriums,
> for which there is ultimately come cost/benefit analysis, that varies
> from individual to individual.

Most people are content to just "get along." They take the path of
least resistance all of the time. They do just enough in pretty much
every aspect of their lives and while away their time watching reality
television.

The idea is that the fitness process is a series of equilibriums is a
good point. Dan John writes about this all the time, and it is the
reason that his throwers do not run with his other track athletes.

> I personally have no goals. I'm more interested in simply assessing
> cause and effect from various strategies. If Sisco's stuff works,
> great, I'll be benching 250 in no time. If not, no biggie. If my own
> diet strategy works, I'll have abs in no time, with absolutely no loss
> of muscle. If it doesn't, no biggie whatsoever.

And a year from now, when you have questions about your diet and about
how Sisco's stuff worked, you won't have any data to look at. You'll be
stuck with the obvious conclusions that can easily be drawn.

Perhaps you won't be able to bench 250 at the end of your Sisco
experiment, but 4 weeks later you will be able to. The magic could well
have been in Sisco's techniques, but the timing may point to some other
workout.

> In a nutshell, I have X minutes a week in which to expend calories --
> what is the best way to do this? To say, I'm gonna weigh Y, lift Z,
> and have measurements W by date XXX is simply wagging the dog by the
> tail. It ultimately is not rational, it is forcing an unnatural, most
> often un-maintainable equilibrium.

I do set goals, but my journal is about storing measurements. I do
write down what I expect to lift in a workout, but I also write down
what I actually did, and how long it took.

You talk about doing experiments, but then you denigrate people that
take the time to actually record the data the experiment generated. To
me that seems paradoxical.

> Rather, one needs to constantly experiment, and see what happens. The
> only problem with this is that is presumes some kind of clarity, a
> clarity which is almost impossible to obtain in the modern day
> Zeitgeist of the Mind****.
>
> Heh, kettlebells being just one ultra-clear example.

Really. By that do you mean that I am clearly making progress working
out with kettlebells.

>>> Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom
>>> scales, HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down
>>> "data", but that was for specific a priori prepuces.
>>>
>>> My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's
>>> sake, and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he
>>> proly saves his sweat from every personal best, labels it in a
>>> bottle, and displays it on his mantle, with an information placard
>>> stuck below, like in a nature walk.
>>
>> Make fun of Freides if you want, but Freides is a perfect example of
>> someone that makes goals and then *achieves* them.
>
> Largely because he has nothing better to do.

I have been following Freides workouts. They do not look like they take
that long. They also appear to work (for him at least).

>> I would gladly save sweat from my personal bests if it meant that I
>> got more personal bests (or even better if it helped me achieve
>> personal bests that were competitive on a state or national scale).
>
> Oh please, give me a break....

What? I am pretty sure the example was yours.

Freides is strong. For his size he is ridiculously strong. For his
size and age he is basically off the charts strong. Considering the
fact that he was hospitalized with back problems at one point in his
life his current success is basically a miracle.

Excuse me if I find that to be inspirational. If writing down my
workouts helps me get to a similar point, then it is time well spent.
And if it does not help. Then I will be the nerdy guy with a netbook
lifting heavy stuff in his basement.

I can live with that.

[...]

>> Writing stuff down is easy, especially compared to lifting heavy stuff.
>> Why not take the time?
>
> Because for 99.9% of the Exercising Pubic, it's pointless. Just like
> HRMs are pointless, unless you are actually conducting experiments.

99.9% of the exercising public sign up for gym memberships that they
never use. Doing what they do is basically a way to guarantee failure.

I do not own a heart rate monitor, but I would bet that if I had one I
could find a way to have it cough up some interesting data. I will
admit that I am curious as to how high my heart rate gets when I do
heavy swings.

> It's either a conjob foisted on the gullible, largely for the purposes
> of justifying some sort of conmanship sales hype, or it just reflects
> a haphazard "strategy" that the misguided think is going to sort ****
> out, upon study, review, and analysis. If you (pl you) knew what you
> were doing, your efforts would generate near-immediate understanding
> of the workability of the strategy at hand.
>
> It's like a cabbie who knows an area, vs. a cabbie who needs a map AND
> a magnifying glass. Pre-GPS, of course, where now no one needs to
> know a g-d thing -- heh, as long as the maps are updated.....

I don't pretend to have the answers, but keeping track of what I do and
what my results are is the only way I know to get the answers.

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 06:03 AM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27 2010, R P wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> seriously now, if your adding up your workout load. Doesn't it
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> more sense to jot it down on a piece of paper, and add it up as you
>>>>>> go?
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally don't have any problems with people that want to use
>>>>> paper
>>>>> and pencil to write this stuff down. My own personal experience is
>>>>> that
>>>>> I just tend to lose pieces of paper :). I do think that you are doing
>>>>> yourself a disservice if you don't go back over your workouts every
>>>>> once
>>>>> in a while looking for trends. For me that means using a computer.
>>>>> So
>>>>> even when I used paper and pencil to actually record my workout I
>>>>> ended
>>>>> up typing my information into my computer later.
>>>>>
>>>>> These days I carry around a netbook wherever I go. As far as I am
>>>>> concerned if I never have to write something out longhand again that
>>>>> is
>>>>> fine with me.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As opposed to turning on the computer,go to to a spread sheet,type
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> ,etc.....I mean I'm not anti computer but dayuumm!.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course I am an old fart<G>
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine it has less to do with being old, and more to do with not
>>>>> being a nerd. Sometimes I wonder if I lift because I like getting
>>>>> strong, or because I like generating pretty graphs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really like pretty graphs.
>>>>
>>>> My sense is, people who log their workouts also watch their feet while
>>>> they walk.
>>>
>>> My sense is that people that make bold statements without evidence are
>>> full of crap. :).
>>
>> Evidence??
>>
>> I never met a single mutha****a who ran better than me cuz of his
>> heart rate monitor, or was fitter or stronger than me cuz of a
>> journal-ful of effing fitness data.
>
> That's an interesting statement. I would bet that you have met lots of
> people that run better than you, and/or are stronger than you. I would
> bet that a significant number of the people that are stronger or faster
> than you keep a journal of their workouts.
>
> Perhaps there is some useful correlation there.
>
> From my experience, serious athletes (ie. the ones that are way better
> than me) tend to be religious about their fitness journal.
>
>> Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME
>> (jason), do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.
>
> Precisely, I obviously feel that this information is useful enough that
> I continue to gather it. In fact, the amount of information that I
> gather has increased over time.
>
>> If so, feel free to cite how it has helped. Now, if yer mind is so
>> far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last week, well, then
>> mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than you, with REAL
>> memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.
>
> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
> per week, I lost 9 pounds.

Well, this sounds like a result worthy of a DragonDoor post.... mebbe
they'll give you some honorarium or sumpn....

If these results, uh, hold water, you should be down to about 125 pounds in
6 mos or so, right?
I think these numbers are suspect, OR you were VERY heavy at that particular
time.
If I was losing twice the weight at a resistance exercise vs. running, I'd
drop running like an effing hotcake.

Now, even tho I douibt YOUR particular numbers (not that you didn't measure
this, but rather what it means), a considerable amount has been published
regarding heavy lifting being MUCH better for true fat burn than aerobics.

I think there is some merit to this observation, but probably in conjunction
with certain diet techniques, as well.

So here's my Q: Why aren't you losing 9 lbs EVERY month?

--
EA

>
> I can generally remember how much I lifted from one week to the next,
> but I generally can not remember how long it took (which I also track).
> My guess is that you are not even worried about this variable, but I
> have found it to be fairly critical. It is easy to get in one more rep,
> or add a bit of weight, if you allow yourself more time to rest. If you
> don't keep track of this sort of thing it is easy to believe that you
> are making progress when what you are really doing is getting lazier
> about starting your next set on time.
>
>> If you can't remember your routine from last week, then it suggests
>> your routines have no structure, rational, strategy, or logic behind
>> them. I remember EVERY step of my sundry pyramids, what worked,
>> didn't work, etc, cuz it all *makes sense* a priori, and what wasn't
>> borne out is pretty clear, and is noted for next time.
>
> I have found that sometimes things "make sense" on paper, but don't
> actually work. For example, trying to run 3 miles in 30 minutes by
> running 30 minutes twice a week and decreasing the time I spent walking
> did not work very well for me. I made more progress in one month spent
> running for longer periods (at a lower speed) than I made in two months
> of running just the 30 minutes.
>
> If you don't keep track of what you do and try to quantify it then there
> is no chance that you will ever question your original beliefs (unless,
> of course, there are obvious glaring problems with your original
> beliefs).
>
>> For example, it becomes very clear, in an ascending pyramid, when to
>> shift from 20# increments, to 10# increments, to 5# increments -- with
>> a little trial and error. It also becomes very clear how to gauge the
>> reps to least compromise the peak 1-RM.
>
> Notes are more helpful over longer periods of time than this. I did not
> need my notes to know when to start pressing my heavier kettlebell. I
> started pressing it the second I could do a triple.
>
> My notes will probably be useful, the next time I make a jump in
> kettlebell size, some time in the future.
>
>> I won't of course remember the details months from now, but such
>> details would be meaningless then anyway. They are important only for
>> gauging the next workout, establishing a "local trend", if you will..
>
> So you believe that the local trend is important, but the larger trends
> are not. Some investors feel that way about their money, but none of
> the *good* investors feel that way.
>
> Why should the investment I make in my own personal fitness be any
> different? The body is a complex system, and almost none of the
> progress that I make is linear. If I relied solely on short term trends
> I would almost certainly miss things.
>
>> And since not much makes sense in all this kettlebell bull**** anyway
>> -- I think this Pavel guy just had way too much free time on his hands
>> -- mebbe you do really think it needs chronicling, when it reality it
>> just means that it's a kind of fitness gibberish. Or, it's like
>> someone who has to wrap a ruler around a circle, cuz he dudn't know
>> C=2pi*r.
>>
>> I don't know why the following comes to mind, but all this chronicling
>> bull**** reminds me of asshole bikers (kawaski and 10 speeds alike),
>> who dress up in matched spandex/helmets, which matches the paint on
>> their ride..... I just can never get over dat ****, and the fact that
>> these are grown effing *adults*. goodgawd.....
>
> When I used to cycle I noticed that most of the guys that were
> considerably faster than I was tended to have nice equipment (that
> matched). My equipment did not match, as it was a grab bag assortment
> of what a poor college student could afford. Interestingly enough, as I
> got to know the guys with the matching equipment they tended to be poor
> college students too. They just thought that cycling was important
> enough that they were willing to sacrifice to get the best equipment.
>
> I personally do not think that the equipment was the deciding factor,
> but rather that their dedication was the deciding factor. However,
> there was clearly a correlation between dedication and good equipment.
>
>>>> Having said that, general exercise/diet/*health* notes can serve to
>>>> isolate/correlate cause and effect in health issues. But, sheeit, I
>>>> really didn't have to log anything to figger out that outside-leg arm
>>>> swings kill the trapezius, or that Vit E cures eczema.... I sorta
>>>> automatically know who the mutha****a was that got me pregnant....
>>>
>>> Perhaps your memory is better than mine, but I have trouble keeping
>>> track of what I have done from one week to the next without actually
>>> looking at my notes. As an example I finished my clean and press
>>> ladders in just under 27 minutes on Wednesday. I thought that was a
>>> long time, until I checked back and saw that just a week before the
>>> same workout took me 72 minutes.
>>>
>>> Throw in any variability at all, and it basically becomes impossible
>>> to remember what you have done previously. For example, I roll two
>>> dice to figure out how long I am going to do swings. Without my
>>> notes I would have no idea if I was making progress or not. With my
>>> notes comparing my current workout with previous workouts is easy.
>>>
>>> Not to mention adding what happens when you add an exercise to your
>>> routine that you have not done in a while. In a few weeks I will
>>> likely start deadlifting again. I have not done that for months, and
>>> it will be nice to have a bit of an idea where to start.
>>>
>>>> The correlation of concept is much more valuable than logging fukn
>>>> data, imo.
>>>
>>> Without data you are confined to the only the most obvious correlations.
>>> Stuff like: I get stronger when I lift weights; I smell funny when I
>>> forget to shower.
>>>
>>> Gather a bit of data, however, and you can do much better.
>>>
>>>> AND, this data has no real use in the formation of concepts, unless
>>>> lots of people were doing it in some coordinated concert, which would
>>>> then turn it into a "study".
>>>
>>> While it goes without saying that creating a true scientific experiment
>>> with only one person is difficult, it is less difficult when you are not
>>> worried about proving something, but only searching clues as to what
>>> works for you.
>>>
>>> Besides, as far as I can tell the alternative to actually measuring your
>>> progress is to just pretend you know what you are talking about. Your
>>> swing example is perfect. You have made the obvious correlation, swings
>>> make your traps ache, but you have no idea if that translates over time
>>> into something useful.
>>>
>>> In a few weeks I will finish my current workout routine and I will spend
>>> a week testing myself. My results might not be generally applicable,
>>> but testing yourself is motivational. Being able to look back over
>>> years of workouts and see your progress is certainly worth the few
>>> minutes it takes to write stuff down.
>>
>> I think you will be hardpressed to cite anything meaningful you
>> actually learned via logging effing fitness data, visavis simply
>> grokking cause and effect.
>>
>> Now, it COULD be that if you logged enough of it, and really analyzed
>> it through multivariate analysis programs, you could glean a little
>> sumpn sumpn, but I don't think anyone here is up for that. Not even
>> researchers, who, with all that analytic horsepower, STILL get it fukn
>> wrong....
>
> My experience has shown that there is no need to toss my data into R for
> it to speak to me. Although I certainly could. The real key is simply
> logging as much data as possible. What did I do, how long did it take?
> How much did I weigh, what did I eat, how did I feel?
>
> For example, my weight graph shows that my weight loss has plateaued
> over the last few weeks. My initial reaction was that my exercise plan
> was no longer effective, and that perhaps I needed a change. This makes
> a lot of sense. Since I have shifted to pressing the heavier kettlebell
> my entire exercise regime for the week consists of about 70 cleans and
> presses and about 21 minutes of heavy kettlebell swings and snatches.
> I *might* get in a two mile run, and I might do 40 minutes of Turbo
> Sculpt. That's not a whole lot of work.
>
> However, after looking at my food log I realized that there is a more
> likely explanation. My weight loss stopped at about the same time as my
> buddy started bringing donuts in to work on Fridays. The local donut
> shop has a delicious peanut-butter-and-jelly-filled bear claw, and I
> simply can not say no to them.
>
>> Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom
>> scales, HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down "data",
>> but that was for specific a priori prepuces.
>>
>> My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's
>> sake, and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he
>> proly saves his sweat from every personal best, labels it in a bottle,
>> and displays it on his mantle, with an information placard stuck
>> below, like in a nature walk.
>
> Make fun of Freides if you want, but Freides is a perfect example of
> someone that makes goals and then *achieves* them.
>
> I would gladly save sweat from my personal bests if it meant that I got
> more personal bests (or even better if it helped me achieve personal
> bests that were competitive on a state or national scale).
>
> Freides is someone that I consider to be a "serious" athlete, and it
> does not surprise me at all that he is serious about tracking his
> efforts.
>
>> Now, if you were training for some event (and that has always had
>> questionable philosophical agendas, imo), and you are doing
>> persnickety **** like timing 1-RMs for competition day, or carb
>> loading, **** like that, where it's all in the details, and future
>> success hinges on yesterday's data, then OK.... but man, unless yer
>> gettin paid fer alladat, why fukn bother??? Oh, yeah, the winning
>> thing.... I keep forgetting....
>
> Writing stuff down is easy, especially compared to lifting heavy stuff.
> Why not take the time?
>
> Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 06:43 AM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, Oct 01 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> That's an interesting statement. I would bet that you have met lots
>>> of people that run better than you, and/or are stronger than you. I
>>> would bet that a significant number of the people that are stronger
>>> or faster than you keep a journal of their workouts.
>>>
>>> Perhaps there is some useful correlation there.
>>
>> Yeah, like Zero -- Nary a one, to my knowledge. I knew ONE guy at the
>> Bally's I used to frequent, who walked around with an effing notebook,
>> and a motorcycle chain, which he used to attach plates to the machines
>> (selectorized weight stacks), since he could max them all out. Heh,
>> he was proly 25-30 y.o., his mom would take him to the gym....
>> Figgers, eh?
>
> So you are the strongest guy you know, then. I find that somewhat hard
> to believe. You've shared very little about how much you lift, but when
> you have shared stats on your actual lifts they've been decent, but
> hardly superhuman.

Talk about reading comprehension:
I said I never met anyone stronger than me BECAUSE they kept a journal.
MOST gymrats are stronger than I am. But they don't keep effing journals.
However, few gymrats are better-looking than I am, which is the far higher
priority.

Kapisch?

Mebbe your next phone call should be to Kaplan....

>
>>> From my experience, serious athletes (ie. the ones that are way
>>> better than me) tend to be religious about their fitness journal.
>>
>> Well, I already made that concession, if by serious athalete you mean
>> competitive. But most serious athaletes are assholes, anyway....
>>
>>>
>>>> Now, you might say, Well, dat journalful of fitness data helps ME
>>>> (jason), do better relatice to me (jason) than had I not done it.
>>>
>>> Precisely, I obviously feel that this information is useful enough that
>>> I continue to gather it. In fact, the amount of information that I
>>> gather has increased over time.
>>>
>>>> If so, feel free to cite how it has helped. Now, if yer mind is so
>>>> far gone, you cain't remember what you lifted last week, well, then
>>>> mebbe you should write **** down. I'm a lot older than you, with REAL
>>>> memory problems, and I don't have THAT problem.
>>>
>>> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
>>> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
>>> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
>>> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
>>> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
>>> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
>>> per week, I lost 9 pounds.
>>
>> You needed a journal to wake you up to this?
>>
>>>
>>> I can generally remember how much I lifted from one week to the next,
>>> but I generally can not remember how long it took (which I also
>>> track). My guess is that you are not even worried about this
>>> variable, but I have found it to be fairly critical. It is easy to
>>> get in one more rep, or add a bit of weight, if you allow yourself
>>> more time to rest. If you don't keep track of this sort of thing it
>>> is easy to believe that you are making progress when what you are
>>> really doing is getting lazier about starting your next set on time.
>>
>> Again, too many do this stuff without a cognitive framework, other
>> than how to get fukn big or strong. Very few factor in efficiency, or
>> bang fer yer exercise buck.
>>
>> It's sorta like a asshole who needs to torque down every fukn bolt he
>> tightens, cuz he is just clueless to the visceral feedback of a
>> nut/bolt "sinking down", and strips them left and right. Heh, Lenny,
>> in Of mice and men....
>>
>> Or people who have swung axes and kettlebells, and think the swing is
>> the same. And then, who concede they were clueless, and THEN go back
>> to insisting that they ARE the same....
>
> I am beginning to see why it is that you would be so resistant to
> writing things down. Your reading comprehension is clearly low enough
> that writing things down does not help you understand them later.
>
> We've had this discussion already. I have made it perfectly clear the
> ways in which I believe these exercises are similar and how they are, at
> the same time different. If the idea that exercises can have both
> similarities and dissimilarities is foreign to you then that's fine, but
> there is no reason to continue to exhibit your poor comprehension.

You have made it clear.... that you don't have a clue.
I'll address this one last time:

The only way you could make an ax/hammer swing SHM (pendulum-like) is if you
raised the sledge overhead, and arc'd it down onto a strong spring, which,
after compression, would propel the hammer back up. After yer first hoist,
you would be doing no further work. Just boing boing boing....

If the ax/sledge comes down to zero velocity in a totally inelastic
collision (which most do, in rock breaking, woodchopping ), you have lost
ALL semblance of SHM, and are now in the realm of *grueling* hard work and
manual labor, expending *tremendous* calories per minute..

KB swings are largely SHM, with the deviations from pure pendulum motion
noted.
The obvious differences (altho not to you) between kb swings and sledges is
the much heavier weight of a swung kb, but which STILL results in a MUCH
lower calorie burn, in the same period of time. Depending, of course, on
HOW the sledgehammer is swung.

My db swings are in fact even MORE purely pendulum-like than kb swings (ie,
even lower calorie burn), but have such great velocities and centripetal
accelerations, that they really kill the traps. Paradoxically, they kill
the traps while expending *VERY few* calories, fewer than kb swings, as
mentioned.

The kb swing, being less SHM than my db "trap swings", expends a little more
energy than my db swings, but not nearly what actually *lifting* a weight
would expend.

Mebbe make that Kaplan call a two-fer -- ask for their Physics Review
course.
Don't pyooter programmers have to take math and sci?? Calculus??



>
> [...]
>
>>> I have found that sometimes things "make sense" on paper, but don't
>>> actually work. For example, trying to run 3 miles in 30 minutes by
>>> running 30 minutes twice a week and decreasing the time I spent
>>> walking did not work very well for me. I made more progress in one
>>> month spent running for longer periods (at a lower speed) than I made
>>> in two months of running just the 30 minutes.
>>
>> You needed a journal for that?
>
> As a matter of fact, I did. I thought it perfectly reasonable to think
> that I could improve the amount of distance I could run in 30 minutes by
> running 30 minutes. To a certain extent it did work. I made progress.
> I simply made more progress at running for 30 minutes when my minimum
> run was an hour.
>
> That may seem straightforward to you, but it certainly did not seem
> straightforward to me. It is like trying to get better at lifting 100
> pounds by lifting 50 pounds (which may work, I do not know).
>
> [...]
>
>>> My experience has shown that there is no need to toss my data into R
>>> for it to speak to me. Although I certainly could. The real key is
>>> simply logging as much data as possible. What did I do, how long did
>>> it take? How much did I weigh, what did I eat, how did I feel?
>>>
>>> For example, my weight graph shows that my weight loss has plateaued
>>> over the last few weeks. My initial reaction was that my exercise
>>> plan was no longer effective, and that perhaps I needed a change.
>>> This makes a lot of sense. Since I have shifted to pressing the
>>> heavier kettlebell my entire exercise regime for the week consists of
>>> about 70 cleans and presses and about 21 minutes of heavy kettlebell
>>> swings and snatches. I *might* get in a two mile run, and I might do
>>> 40 minutes of Turbo Sculpt. That's not a whole lot of work.
>>>
>>> However, after looking at my food log I realized that there is a more
>>> likely explanation. My weight loss stopped at about the same time as
>>> my buddy started bringing donuts in to work on Fridays. The local
>>> donut shop has a delicious peanut-butter-and-jelly-filled bear claw,
>>> and I simply can not say no to them.
>>
>> Well, you DO need a journal, then. goodgawd.... If eating a P&B
>> donut dudnt set off bells and whistles in your very
>> weight/health/fitness conscious head, then indeed ax swings and kb
>> swings must appear identical.
>
> I am not sure, the amount of calories different should not make that
> much of a difference. Then again, it did not make sense that I lost
> weight faster while working out far less when I started doing kettlebell
> swings.

Agreed, it does not make sense. See my other reply.

>
>> Also, plateaus are interesting. Eventually your weight WILL
>> plateau.... but then mebbe not.... How will you know what is right?
>> 1.5% bodyfat?? Bones sticking out? Any concrete ""goals""?? On what
>> basis??
>
> Right now my goal is to get to 200 pounds. My strategy, so far, has
> been to eat whatever I want, and make sure I write it down in my
> Journal. Doing this I have lost 30 pounds while eating tons of donuts.
>
>> The problem with "goals" (a la your mention of Friedes below) is that
>> too often they are made in a vacuum, or under the influence of
>> aesthetic assholes or philistines. Very few people are willing or
>> able to view the health/fitness process as a series of equilibriums,
>> for which there is ultimately come cost/benefit analysis, that varies
>> from individual to individual.
>
> Most people are content to just "get along." They take the path of
> least resistance all of the time. They do just enough in pretty much
> every aspect of their lives and while away their time watching reality
> television.
>
> The idea is that the fitness process is a series of equilibriums is a
> good point. Dan John writes about this all the time, and it is the
> reason that his throwers do not run with his other track athletes.
>
>> I personally have no goals. I'm more interested in simply assessing
>> cause and effect from various strategies. If Sisco's stuff works,
>> great, I'll be benching 250 in no time. If not, no biggie. If my own
>> diet strategy works, I'll have abs in no time, with absolutely no loss
>> of muscle. If it doesn't, no biggie whatsoever.
>
> And a year from now, when you have questions about your diet and about
> how Sisco's stuff worked, you won't have any data to look at. You'll be
> stuck with the obvious conclusions that can easily be drawn.

Those are the best conclusions.
Now, I'm not anti-data. It's just that I take my data and process it
apparently quicker than you do.
Might I miss sumpn or other by not Friedes-cizing myself?? Possibly. But
then not being that self-obsessed, it dudn't bother that much, either.

>
> Perhaps you won't be able to bench 250 at the end of your Sisco
> experiment, but 4 weeks later you will be able to. The magic could well
> have been in Sisco's techniques, but the timing may point to some other
> workout.

Which I would be aware of, without endless chronicling.

>
>> In a nutshell, I have X minutes a week in which to expend calories --
>> what is the best way to do this? To say, I'm gonna weigh Y, lift Z,
>> and have measurements W by date XXX is simply wagging the dog by the
>> tail. It ultimately is not rational, it is forcing an unnatural, most
>> often un-maintainable equilibrium.
>
> I do set goals, but my journal is about storing measurements. I do
> write down what I expect to lift in a workout, but I also write down
> what I actually did, and how long it took.
>
> You talk about doing experiments, but then you denigrate people that
> take the time to actually record the data the experiment generated. To
> me that seems paradoxical.

Only because you don't understand the diff between mountains and molehills.
Apparently what you need to "study" is obvious to others.
If that is indeed the case, then chronicle away, study away.

And actually, I don't disagree with data. In fact, I "record" it in a
sense, in a series of regular communiques with a small cabal using my
apparatus, and we share notes. But these notes are basically a one-day
look-see, and only one guy really retrieves them, but mostly cuz his
performances are so freakishly extraordinary, that it's mildly inneresting
to see how they came to be.

But I view this "data sharing" (more like, Hey, this is what I did today,
with mebbe brief correlations) as a vehicle for current feedback, not for
future study.

>
>> Rather, one needs to constantly experiment, and see what happens. The
>> only problem with this is that is presumes some kind of clarity, a
>> clarity which is almost impossible to obtain in the modern day
>> Zeitgeist of the Mind****.
>>
>> Heh, kettlebells being just one ultra-clear example.
>
> Really. By that do you mean that I am clearly making progress working
> out with kettlebells.

No, that the KB cultists have made **** sufficiently opaque, so that you
don't or won't realize that you can do the same ****, and more, with
dumbbells. Or goddamm rocks.
You could make the same progress lifting/hurling rocks -- heh, proly even
more progress.



>
>>>> Now, having said that, I've done very neat experiments with bathroom
>>>> scales, HR monitors, and the like, and indeed had to jot down
>>>> "data", but that was for specific a priori prepuces.
>>>>
>>>> My speculation is that most people chronicle **** for chronicling's
>>>> sake, and Friedes would be a perfect example of that. I think he
>>>> proly saves his sweat from every personal best, labels it in a
>>>> bottle, and displays it on his mantle, with an information placard
>>>> stuck below, like in a nature walk.
>>>
>>> Make fun of Freides if you want, but Freides is a perfect example of
>>> someone that makes goals and then *achieves* them.
>>
>> Largely because he has nothing better to do.
>
> I have been following Freides workouts. They do not look like they take
> that long. They also appear to work (for him at least).
>
>>> I would gladly save sweat from my personal bests if it meant that I
>>> got more personal bests (or even better if it helped me achieve
>>> personal bests that were competitive on a state or national scale).
>>
>> Oh please, give me a break....
>
> What? I am pretty sure the example was yours.
>
> Freides is strong. For his size he is ridiculously strong. For his
> size and age he is basically off the charts strong. Considering the
> fact that he was hospitalized with back problems at one point in his
> life his current success is basically a miracle.
>
> Excuse me if I find that to be inspirational. If writing down my
> workouts helps me get to a similar point, then it is time well spent.
> And if it does not help. Then I will be the nerdy guy with a netbook
> lifting heavy stuff in his basement.
>
> I can live with that.

So you write **** down cuz Friedes does?? goodgawd.....

>
> [...]
>
>>> Writing stuff down is easy, especially compared to lifting heavy stuff.
>>> Why not take the time?
>>
>> Because for 99.9% of the Exercising Pubic, it's pointless. Just like
>> HRMs are pointless, unless you are actually conducting experiments.
>
> 99.9% of the exercising public sign up for gym memberships that they
> never use. Doing what they do is basically a way to guarantee failure.

Then they are not the Exercising Pubic, are they?

>
> I do not own a heart rate monitor, but I would bet that if I had one I
> could find a way to have it cough up some interesting data. I will
> admit that I am curious as to how high my heart rate gets when I do
> heavy swings.
>
>> It's either a conjob foisted on the gullible, largely for the purposes
>> of justifying some sort of conmanship sales hype, or it just reflects
>> a haphazard "strategy" that the misguided think is going to sort ****
>> out, upon study, review, and analysis. If you (pl you) knew what you
>> were doing, your efforts would generate near-immediate understanding
>> of the workability of the strategy at hand.
>>
>> It's like a cabbie who knows an area, vs. a cabbie who needs a map AND
>> a magnifying glass. Pre-GPS, of course, where now no one needs to
>> know a g-d thing -- heh, as long as the maps are updated.....
>
> I don't pretend to have the answers, but keeping track of what I do and
> what my results are is the only way I know to get the answers.

Try learning some theory, physiology. If you know C = 2pi*r*, you won't
have to record the x,y coordinates of every goddamm point of the circle.
Right now, the trees are interfering with the forest.
Which is proly true of most KB-ers.
--
EA

>
> Jason

Jason Earl[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 02:53 PM
On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...

[...]

>> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
>> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
>> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
>> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
>> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
>> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
>> per week, I lost 9 pounds.
>
> Well, this sounds like a result worthy of a DragonDoor post.... mebbe
> they'll give you some honorarium or sumpn....

A good portion of that weight loss actually happened in the week that I
rested before starting the kettlebell drills. I personally think that
the real catalyst was that I stopped running so many miles per week.

I would not even qualify that as an educated guess though.

> If these results, uh, hold water, you should be down to about 125
> pounds in 6 mos or so, right?

Let's just say I am not planning on it. In fact, after the initial
weight loss in the first month I have basically stayed the same weight.

> I think these numbers are suspect, OR you were VERY heavy at that
> particular time.

I would not believe it either, except that I have the workout logs, the
food logs, and the weight logs right in front of me. Plus the fact that
I know that I was not trying to game the system. That is not the result
I was expecting at all.

I would not have even made the connection, had it not been for our
discussion about kettlebell swings.

> If I was losing twice the weight at a resistance exercise vs. running,
> I'd drop running like an effing hotcake.

Except we both know that things are more complicated than that. Which
is why I keep a journal. In the second month of kettlebell swings I
have stayed the same weight. Now, my food log does say that I have
eaten a bit more per week, but I have really tried to simply write down
what I ate. So it is possible the weight training has simply made me
hungrier. Or it could be that increased exposure to donuts is short
circuiting my weight loss progress.

Heck, it could be something else entirely. Perhaps I started actually
adding muscle. I am starting to notice differences in the pictures I
take every two weeks or so.

Yes, in addition to everything else I take pictures regularly so that I
can *see* progress.

> Now, even tho I douibt YOUR particular numbers (not that you didn't
> measure this, but rather what it means), a considerable amount has
> been published regarding heavy lifting being MUCH better for true fat
> burn than aerobics.
>
> I think there is some merit to this observation, but probably in conjunction
> with certain diet techniques, as well.
>
> So here's my Q: Why aren't you losing 9 lbs EVERY month?

EA. You seem to revel in the fact that you have answers without data.
I, on the other hand, have lots of data, but very few concrete answers.

Of course, we both know that all of these systems are basically a series
of equilibriums, and that these systems are ridiculously complex. I
have known all along, for example, that losing weight was going to get
harder over time. What's more, none of the 30+ pound weight loss I have
experienced since the beginning of March has been particularly linear.
It is even entirely possible that the weight loss and exercise are
completely unrelated.

I don't know why I lost the weight like I did, and I do not have enough
data to even guess (yet).

My point with this particular example is that if you were to track your
fitness variables more closely you might well be surprised what sort of
patterns you saw. I am *not* trying to say that kettlebell drills are
some sort of miracle exercise. I am just stating the observed facts
that I carefully recorded.

In a couple of weeks I am going to take a week off of my normal routine
to test myself. One day I am going to do a 24kg 10 minute kettlebell
snatch test. Another day I am going to run my hill course. I am going
to attempt a max one hand clean and press, and a max deadlift. I am
considering some other tests, including running a 10K on my treadmill.
The reason that I am going to do this is I would like to be even more
deliberate than I have been in the past when it comes to trying to
quantify my progress over time.

After testing myself I am going to take a week off, and then I am going
to do something else for three months (at which point I will test myself
again).

Some of these tests will probably show that I have taken a step or two
backwards in some areas. I predict that it will likely take me a year
to be able to begin to truly assess how well this current workout
regimen actually worked. I am happy with how things have worked so far,
but it is quite possible that when I have gathered more data and
compared three months of kettlebell drills to some other types of
workouts that this three months will be a disappointment.

I don't know..

I do know that answering these kinds of questions without writing stuff
down is basically impossible. You talk all of the time about how the
workouts you are doing are the most efficient possible, but without
notes you have essentially no data to back that up. I am not saying you
are not right. I believe that lifting heavy stuff over your head is a
workout that is hard to beat. I am just saying that you have very
little actual evidence to support that what you are doing is optimal.

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 04:43 PM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
> [...]
>
>>> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
>>> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight log,
>>> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
>>> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
>>> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
>>> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same calories
>>> per week, I lost 9 pounds.
>>
>> Well, this sounds like a result worthy of a DragonDoor post.... mebbe
>> they'll give you some honorarium or sumpn....
>
> A good portion of that weight loss actually happened in the week that I
> rested before starting the kettlebell drills. I personally think that
> the real catalyst was that I stopped running so many miles per week.
>
> I would not even qualify that as an educated guess though.
>
>> If these results, uh, hold water, you should be down to about 125
>> pounds in 6 mos or so, right?
>
> Let's just say I am not planning on it. In fact, after the initial
> weight loss in the first month I have basically stayed the same weight.
>
>> I think these numbers are suspect, OR you were VERY heavy at that
>> particular time.
>
> I would not believe it either, except that I have the workout logs, the
> food logs, and the weight logs right in front of me. Plus the fact that
> I know that I was not trying to game the system. That is not the result
> I was expecting at all.
>
> I would not have even made the connection, had it not been for our
> discussion about kettlebell swings.
>
>> If I was losing twice the weight at a resistance exercise vs. running,
>> I'd drop running like an effing hotcake.
>
> Except we both know that things are more complicated than that. Which
> is why I keep a journal. In the second month of kettlebell swings I
> have stayed the same weight. Now, my food log does say that I have
> eaten a bit more per week, but I have really tried to simply write down
> what I ate. So it is possible the weight training has simply made me
> hungrier. Or it could be that increased exposure to donuts is short
> circuiting my weight loss progress.
>
> Heck, it could be something else entirely. Perhaps I started actually
> adding muscle. I am starting to notice differences in the pictures I
> take every two weeks or so.
>
> Yes, in addition to everything else I take pictures regularly so that I
> can *see* progress.
>
>> Now, even tho I douibt YOUR particular numbers (not that you didn't
>> measure this, but rather what it means), a considerable amount has
>> been published regarding heavy lifting being MUCH better for true fat
>> burn than aerobics.
>>
>> I think there is some merit to this observation, but probably in
>> conjunction
>> with certain diet techniques, as well.
>>
>> So here's my Q: Why aren't you losing 9 lbs EVERY month?
>
> EA. You seem to revel in the fact that you have answers without data.
> I, on the other hand, have lots of data, but very few concrete answers.

Heh, which should REALLY tell you something, Jason, about your effing
data.... hilarious....



>
> Of course, we both know that all of these systems are basically a series
> of equilibriums, and that these systems are ridiculously complex. I
> have known all along, for example, that losing weight was going to get
> harder over time.

I used to believe this, but my BMR analysis shows that this is not
necessarily so, IF one takes care not to lose muscle.
The downside is, weight loss is *uniformly* VERY slow.
See below.

What's more, none of the 30+ pound weight loss I have
> experienced since the beginning of March has been particularly linear.
> It is even entirely possible that the weight loss and exercise are
> completely unrelated.
>
> I don't know why I lost the weight like I did, and I do not have enough
> data to even guess (yet).

No, it's that your data has been taken in a bit of a vacuum.

>
> My point with this particular example is that if you were to track your
> fitness variables more closely you might well be surprised what sort of
> patterns you saw. I am *not* trying to say that kettlebell drills are
> some sort of miracle exercise. I am just stating the observed facts
> that I carefully recorded.

While you hunt for patterns from arduous data, I already know that C =
2pi*r*, x^2+y^2=r^2 -- really makes life easier.


>
> In a couple of weeks I am going to take a week off of my normal routine
> to test myself. One day I am going to do a 24kg 10 minute kettlebell
> snatch test. Another day I am going to run my hill course. I am going
> to attempt a max one hand clean and press, and a max deadlift. I am
> considering some other tests, including running a 10K on my treadmill.
> The reason that I am going to do this is I would like to be even more
> deliberate than I have been in the past when it comes to trying to
> quantify my progress over time.
>
> After testing myself I am going to take a week off, and then I am going
> to do something else for three months (at which point I will test myself
> again).
>
> Some of these tests will probably show that I have taken a step or two
> backwards in some areas. I predict that it will likely take me a year
> to be able to begin to truly assess how well this current workout
> regimen actually worked. I am happy with how things have worked so far,
> but it is quite possible that when I have gathered more data and
> compared three months of kettlebell drills to some other types of
> workouts that this three months will be a disappointment.

Man, you must have one lousy memory.....

>
> I don't know..
>
> I do know that answering these kinds of questions without writing stuff
> down is basically impossible. You talk all of the time about how the
> workouts you are doing are the most efficient possible, but without
> notes you have essentially no data to back that up.

And, from the above, with all your effing data, Jason, YOU can't back
anything up either, ito cause, effect, mechanism, etc!!! Hilarious.....

Apparently, those 9# weight losses were anomalous glitches, eh?


I am not saying you
> are not right. I believe that lifting heavy stuff over your head is a
> workout that is hard to beat. I am just saying that you have very
> little actual evidence to support that what you are doing is optimal.

Which is why it is important to read, understand some physical THEORY, and
not flail around blind.

The diff. between us is that YOU tabulate, and I calculate.

And, ahm gonna lay the results of some my calcs on you, without justifying
it right now:

If you really want to lose weight, continue what you are doing,
activity-wise. You can't really beat running and lifting -- heh, even if
the lifting is done with kb's......

The KEY, tho, is, small frequent meals, 2-300 cals per meal, every 3 hours.
You may be amazed at just how little food this is, junk-food wise. It could
be literally one bite of those donuts! Or 1/4 of your normal sandwich.

I would avoid Subways et al cuz those things, in my conpspiratorial mind,
are DESIGNED to leave you starving. No foolin. Plus the quality of their
food is absolutely minimal. Better than McD's, but that's like comparing
**** to diarrhea....

Low fat (good quality fat) helps in this strategy, but is actually not
essential. If high fat, the meal should proly be 150-200 cals.

It is *always* better to eat after a workout rather than before, altho lite
workouts (walking) after eating GREATLY help glycemic control.

REAL weight loss, ie fat loss, occurs VERY slowly, not more than 1/2 # per
week, usually less. AND, depending on the type of workouts, this may not
even be detectable, depending on changes in muscle mass.

Those biggest losers have lost, alright.... MUSCLE!!! Muscle can easily be
lost at twice the rate of fat, and poss. much higher than that.

Every one of those biggest losers has destroyed themselves metabolically,
viscerally. Those biggest losers should be losing TOPS 1 1/2 # per week,
after initial water loss. Proly only 3/4-1# per week. And then less than
1/2# per week as the BMI gets in the high 20's.

A few lucky ones will keep the weight off, but even they may suffer from
permanently weakened joints, hernias, other consitutional/metabolic issues.

Calorie-counting -- which is really just "understanding food" if you are not
just counting blindly -- is critical, and I highly recommend the Bowes and
Church series of Food Values of Portions Commonly Used, edited by Jean
Pennington, 18th ed -- about 2005, iirc -- about $7 iirc on amazon, later
editions much more expensive.

This is a MUST for anyone serious about knowledgeable weight loss,
intelligent eating, and will give data junkies like you a long-standing
chubby.

All their data comes out of the USDA database (free), and and for real
*analysis* you'd want to stick with that pyooter database, but for
consumers, in both foodies and weight loss, the book is REALLY handy to
have, extremely well done.
THOUSANDS of foods, including the complete amino acid profiles of hundreds,
including fruits, of all things.

Heh, you might even find your P&B donuts in there....

--
EA












>
> Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 06:44 PM
"Existential Angst" > wrote in message
...
> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>>
>>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Actually, a few weeks back I shared an example here about how my
>>>> reviewing my notes lead to a bit of insight. I keep a daily weight
>>>> log,
>>>> an exercise log and a food log. When we were discussing kettlebell
>>>> drills I went back over my notes and realized that over two months of
>>>> running (averaging about 18 miles per week) I lost just over 9 pounds.
>>>> In my first month of kettlebell drills, eating roughly the same
>>>> calories
>>>> per week, I lost 9 pounds.
>>>
>>> Well, this sounds like a result worthy of a DragonDoor post.... mebbe
>>> they'll give you some honorarium or sumpn....
>>
>> A good portion of that weight loss actually happened in the week that I
>> rested before starting the kettlebell drills. I personally think that
>> the real catalyst was that I stopped running so many miles per week.
>>
>> I would not even qualify that as an educated guess though.
>>
>>> If these results, uh, hold water, you should be down to about 125
>>> pounds in 6 mos or so, right?
>>
>> Let's just say I am not planning on it. In fact, after the initial
>> weight loss in the first month I have basically stayed the same weight.
>>
>>> I think these numbers are suspect, OR you were VERY heavy at that
>>> particular time.
>>
>> I would not believe it either, except that I have the workout logs, the
>> food logs, and the weight logs right in front of me. Plus the fact that
>> I know that I was not trying to game the system. That is not the result
>> I was expecting at all.
>>
>> I would not have even made the connection, had it not been for our
>> discussion about kettlebell swings.
>>
>>> If I was losing twice the weight at a resistance exercise vs. running,
>>> I'd drop running like an effing hotcake.
>>
>> Except we both know that things are more complicated than that. Which
>> is why I keep a journal. In the second month of kettlebell swings I
>> have stayed the same weight. Now, my food log does say that I have
>> eaten a bit more per week, but I have really tried to simply write down
>> what I ate. So it is possible the weight training has simply made me
>> hungrier. Or it could be that increased exposure to donuts is short
>> circuiting my weight loss progress.
>>
>> Heck, it could be something else entirely. Perhaps I started actually
>> adding muscle. I am starting to notice differences in the pictures I
>> take every two weeks or so.
>>
>> Yes, in addition to everything else I take pictures regularly so that I
>> can *see* progress.
>>
>>> Now, even tho I douibt YOUR particular numbers (not that you didn't
>>> measure this, but rather what it means), a considerable amount has
>>> been published regarding heavy lifting being MUCH better for true fat
>>> burn than aerobics.
>>>
>>> I think there is some merit to this observation, but probably in
>>> conjunction
>>> with certain diet techniques, as well.
>>>
>>> So here's my Q: Why aren't you losing 9 lbs EVERY month?
>>
>> EA. You seem to revel in the fact that you have answers without data.
>> I, on the other hand, have lots of data, but very few concrete answers.
>
> Heh, which should REALLY tell you something, Jason, about your effing
> data.... hilarious....
>
>
>
>>
>> Of course, we both know that all of these systems are basically a series
>> of equilibriums, and that these systems are ridiculously complex. I
>> have known all along, for example, that losing weight was going to get
>> harder over time.
>
> I used to believe this, but my BMR analysis shows that this is not
> necessarily so, IF one takes care not to lose muscle.
> The downside is, weight loss is *uniformly* VERY slow.
> See below.
>
> What's more, none of the 30+ pound weight loss I have
>> experienced since the beginning of March has been particularly linear.
>> It is even entirely possible that the weight loss and exercise are
>> completely unrelated.
>>
>> I don't know why I lost the weight like I did, and I do not have enough
>> data to even guess (yet).
>
> No, it's that your data has been taken in a bit of a vacuum.
>
>>
>> My point with this particular example is that if you were to track your
>> fitness variables more closely you might well be surprised what sort of
>> patterns you saw. I am *not* trying to say that kettlebell drills are
>> some sort of miracle exercise. I am just stating the observed facts
>> that I carefully recorded.
>
> While you hunt for patterns from arduous data, I already know that C =
> 2pi*r*, x^2+y^2=r^2 -- really makes life easier.
>
>
>>
>> In a couple of weeks I am going to take a week off of my normal routine
>> to test myself. One day I am going to do a 24kg 10 minute kettlebell
>> snatch test. Another day I am going to run my hill course. I am going
>> to attempt a max one hand clean and press, and a max deadlift. I am
>> considering some other tests, including running a 10K on my treadmill.
>> The reason that I am going to do this is I would like to be even more
>> deliberate than I have been in the past when it comes to trying to
>> quantify my progress over time.
>>
>> After testing myself I am going to take a week off, and then I am going
>> to do something else for three months (at which point I will test myself
>> again).
>>
>> Some of these tests will probably show that I have taken a step or two
>> backwards in some areas. I predict that it will likely take me a year
>> to be able to begin to truly assess how well this current workout
>> regimen actually worked. I am happy with how things have worked so far,
>> but it is quite possible that when I have gathered more data and
>> compared three months of kettlebell drills to some other types of
>> workouts that this three months will be a disappointment.
>
> Man, you must have one lousy memory.....
>
>>
>> I don't know..
>>
>> I do know that answering these kinds of questions without writing stuff
>> down is basically impossible. You talk all of the time about how the
>> workouts you are doing are the most efficient possible, but without
>> notes you have essentially no data to back that up.
>
> And, from the above, with all your effing data, Jason, YOU can't back
> anything up either, ito cause, effect, mechanism, etc!!! Hilarious.....
>
> Apparently, those 9# weight losses were anomalous glitches, eh?
>
>
> I am not saying you
>> are not right. I believe that lifting heavy stuff over your head is a
>> workout that is hard to beat. I am just saying that you have very
>> little actual evidence to support that what you are doing is optimal.
>
> Which is why it is important to read, understand some physical THEORY, and
> not flail around blind.
>
> The diff. between us is that YOU tabulate, and I calculate.
>
> And, ahm gonna lay the results of some my calcs on you, without justifying
> it right now:
>
> If you really want to lose weight, continue what you are doing,
> activity-wise. You can't really beat running and lifting -- heh, even if
> the lifting is done with kb's......
>
> The KEY, tho, is, small frequent meals, 2-300 cals per meal, every 3
> hours. You may be amazed at just how little food this is, junk-food wise.
> It could be literally one bite of those donuts! Or 1/4 of your normal
> sandwich.
>
> I would avoid Subways et al cuz those things, in my conpspiratorial mind,
> are DESIGNED to leave you starving. No foolin. Plus the quality of their
> food is absolutely minimal. Better than McD's, but that's like comparing
> **** to diarrhea....
>
> Low fat (good quality fat) helps in this strategy, but is actually not
> essential. If high fat, the meal should proly be 150-200 cals.
>
> It is *always* better to eat after a workout rather than before, altho
> lite workouts (walking) after eating GREATLY help glycemic control.
>
> REAL weight loss, ie fat loss, occurs VERY slowly, not more than 1/2 # per
> week, usually less. AND, depending on the type of workouts, this may not
> even be detectable, depending on changes in muscle mass.
>
> Those biggest losers have lost, alright.... MUSCLE!!! Muscle can easily
> be lost at twice the rate of fat, and poss. much higher than that.
>
> Every one of those biggest losers has destroyed themselves metabolically,
> viscerally. Those biggest losers should be losing TOPS 1 1/2 # per week,
> after initial water loss. Proly only 3/4-1# per week. And then less than
> 1/2# per week as the BMI gets in the high 20's.
>
> A few lucky ones will keep the weight off, but even they may suffer from
> permanently weakened joints, hernias, other consitutional/metabolic
> issues.
>
> Calorie-counting -- which is really just "understanding food" if you are
> not just counting blindly -- is critical, and I highly recommend the Bowes
> and Church series of Food Values of Portions Commonly Used, edited by
> Jean Pennington, 18th ed -- about 2005, iirc -- about $7 iirc on amazon,
> later editions much more expensive.
>
> This is a MUST for anyone serious about knowledgeable weight loss,
> intelligent eating, and will give data junkies like you a long-standing
> chubby.
>
> All their data comes out of the USDA database (free), and and for real
> *analysis* you'd want to stick with that pyooter database, but for
> consumers, in both foodies and weight loss, the book is REALLY handy to
> have, extremely well done.
> THOUSANDS of foods, including the complete amino acid profiles of
> hundreds, including fruits, of all things.
>
> Heh, you might even find your P&B donuts in there....

Oh, Pennington actually uses well over 100 sources, beyond the USDA
database, and includes a "sourcecode" for every one of their entries. Most
of the garden-variety data comes from the USDA, but Pennington has gone far
afield, as well. The list of these sources is useful in its own right.

And many chemical-specific tables as well, such as for caffeines,
theobromines, bunch of other stuff.

The main very large section of the book lists foods in every form, the water
content, cals, pro, fats, carbs, almost all the vits/mins, plus various
special tables for other non-nutrient content. Indispensable, for any
food/health conscious person.
--
EA
>
> --
> EA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Jason
>
>

Jason Earl[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 06:54 PM
On Sun, Oct 03 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:

[...]

>> EA. You seem to revel in the fact that you have answers without
>> data. I, on the other hand, have lots of data, but very few concrete
>> answers.
>
> Heh, which should REALLY tell you something, Jason, about your effing
> data.... hilarious....

I just understand that unless the question is very simple, and unless
you can easily account for all of the variables, that it is very
difficult to gather enough data to give a clear picture.

You actually provide a very good example as to why this is true in this
post. Someone watching "The Biggest Loser" would probably come to
several very dangerous conclusions about weight loss.

I have seven months of food data for one person. My food log is based,
where possible, on the latest USDA database, but there have been plenty
of times where I have been forced to simply as the calories involved. I
have also only really been concerned about calories. I have not made
much of an attempt at all to even track macronutrients, much less meal
timing, or any number of other possible variables, all of which may or
may not be important.

The conclusion I feel that I can confidently make is that tracking what
I ate has helped me to lose 30+ pounds in the 7 months. I can also make
some educated guesses as to how many calories per week I require to
maintain my current weight, etc.

This information has been pretty useful to me, but I am not going to
pretend that this information has unlocked the secrets of weight loss.

>> Of course, we both know that all of these systems are basically a
>> series of equilibriums, and that these systems are ridiculously
>> complex. I have known all along, for example, that losing weight was
>> going to get harder over time.
>
> I used to believe this, but my BMR analysis shows that this is not
> necessarily so, IF one takes care not to lose muscle. The downside
> is, weight loss is *uniformly* VERY slow. See below.
>
>> What's more, none of the 30+ pound weight loss I have experienced
>> since the beginning of March has been particularly linear. It is
>> even entirely possible that the weight loss and exercise are
>> completely unrelated.
>>
>> I don't know why I lost the weight like I did, and I do not have
>> enough data to even guess (yet).
>
> No, it's that your data has been taken in a bit of a vacuum.

Agreed. My data is not part of a study.

>> My point with this particular example is that if you were to track
>> your fitness variables more closely you might well be surprised what
>> sort of patterns you saw. I am *not* trying to say that kettlebell
>> drills are some sort of miracle exercise. I am just stating the
>> observed facts that I carefully recorded.
>
> While you hunt for patterns from arduous data, I already know that C =
> 2pi*r*, x^2+y^2=r^2 -- really makes life easier.

Arduous? I write down my weight once a day. I plan my workouts a week
in advance, and then write down what I actually do (plus some notes).
Writing down everything I eat is more work. However, I would bet that I
spend less than 10 minutes a day.

Heck, I spend more time posting to MFW than I do keeping track of my
fitness. I am pretty confident that the time spent on my fitness
journal is better spent than my time here.

>> In a couple of weeks I am going to take a week off of my normal
>> routine to test myself. One day I am going to do a 24kg 10 minute
>> kettlebell snatch test. Another day I am going to run my hill
>> course. I am going to attempt a max one hand clean and press, and a
>> max deadlift. I am considering some other tests, including running a
>> 10K on my treadmill. The reason that I am going to do this is I
>> would like to be even more deliberate than I have been in the past
>> when it comes to trying to quantify my progress over time.
>>
>> After testing myself I am going to take a week off, and then I am
>> going to do something else for three months (at which point I will
>> test myself again).
>>
>> Some of these tests will probably show that I have taken a step or
>> two backwards in some areas. I predict that it will likely take me a
>> year to be able to begin to truly assess how well this current
>> workout regimen actually worked. I am happy with how things have
>> worked so far, but it is quite possible that when I have gathered
>> more data and compared three months of kettlebell drills to some
>> other types of workouts that this three months will be a
>> disappointment.
>
> Man, you must have one lousy memory.....

OK, so how much could you deadlift a year ago? How about your bench
press? How long did it take you to run 1.5 miles? How much has your
time improved, or digressed in the last six months? How many workouts
did you miss last year? What kinds of workouts were you most likely to
miss? What is your personal best in the clean and press? What is your
personal best for the clean and press for a set of 5?

The list of questions that I have been able to answer only because I
wrote this stuff down is pretty long.

My memory is pretty good, but I do not trust it to remember this sort of
data for longer than a few days. Fortunately writing these numbers down
takes almost no time at all. It is possible that your memory is so much
better than mine that you can easily remember these details, but I doubt
it. The fact of the matter is that you have simply decided that these
details don't matter, and you have chosen a workout template that is
simple enough that you do not need to remember details.

I use my notes all of the time. You can try and convince me that my
notes aren't useful, but you sound a lot like the blind man that was
convinced that the elephant was like a spear because he only felt the
tusks.

>> I don't know..
>>
>> I do know that answering these kinds of questions without writing
>> stuff down is basically impossible. You talk all of the time about
>> how the workouts you are doing are the most efficient possible, but
>> without notes you have essentially no data to back that up.
>
> And, from the above, with all your effing data, Jason, YOU can't back
> anything up either, ito cause, effect, mechanism, etc!!!
> Hilarious.....

That's simply because I have an idea how much data it takes to come to a
useful conclusion.

For example. For over two years I ran my hill course 2 to 3 times a
week, writing down the time it took me each time. I gathered enough
data so that I could predict, very accurately, how long it would take me
to run the route on any given day. Then, as part of an experiment, I
stopped running the route for a month and instead did Tabata sprints 3
times a week. At the end of the month I ran the hill course again and
crushed my previous best time.

Now, in a simplistic world I might conclude that instead of running the
hill route I should just do sprints. And, in fact, that's what I did.
I did all sorts of Tabata sprints, Tabata front squats, etc, but I did
not really make any more progress.

That PR stood for almost four years (I will admit that due to some
personal issues I did not work regularly for about a year and a half of
that). I recently broke that PR. The formula was a couple of months of
much longer runs at much slower speeds, and then a month of kettlebell
drills.

So what does that mean? To be honest, I am not totally sure. Part of
me wants to say that my increased practice running helped me beat my
best time. However, I ran the hill course once while I was still
concentrating on longer runs, and I very poorly. It was not until I
spent some time at a much higher intensity that I was able to set a new
PR.

At the end of my current kettlebell phase I will test myself and see
where I stand. That probably will not answer my questions completely
either, but it will at least give me some more clues.

That's how science works. You inevitably get more questions than
answers.

> Apparently, those 9# weight losses were anomalous glitches, eh?

Losing 9 pounds in 2 months was not anomalous. Losing 9 pounds in one
month was extraordinary, but it is certainly not unheard of.

Could I do it again? I have no idea. I certainly do not want to put
the weight back on to test. Will I at least consider a short time doing
kettlebell drills if I ever want to lose weight again? Yes, I probably
will.

>> I am not saying you are not right. I believe that lifting heavy
>> stuff over your head is a workout that is hard to beat. I am just
>> saying that you have very little actual evidence to support that what
>> you are doing is optimal.
>
> Which is why it is important to read, understand some physical THEORY,
> and not flail around blind.

Perhaps you could suggest some reading?

I have read a great deal, and, as you have no doubt noticed, regularly
quote from actual research that I have read.

> The diff. between us is that YOU tabulate, and I calculate.
>
> And, ahm gonna lay the results of some my calcs on you, without
> justifying it right now:
>
> If you really want to lose weight, continue what you are doing,
> activity-wise. You can't really beat running and lifting -- heh, even
> if the lifting is done with kb's......

In another two weeks, I will be switching how I exercise. I will likely
be shifting towards a six day workout week. I will run 3 days a week,
and lift (barbells) 3 days a week. I have not decided what weight
training program I will follow, but I plan on running 14 miles per week.
Two 4 mile runs, and one 6 mile run.

> The KEY, tho, is, small frequent meals, 2-300 cals per meal, every 3
> hours. You may be amazed at just how little food this is, junk-food
> wise. It could be literally one bite of those donuts! Or 1/4 of your
> normal sandwich.

I tend to prefer simple sandwiches. Most are just above 300 calories a
piece, but some are less.

> I would avoid Subways et al cuz those things, in my conpspiratorial
> mind, are DESIGNED to leave you starving. No foolin. Plus the
> quality of their food is absolutely minimal. Better than McD's, but
> that's like comparing **** to diarrhea....

I don't eat out much.

> Low fat (good quality fat) helps in this strategy, but is actually not
> essential. If high fat, the meal should proly be 150-200 cals.
>
> It is *always* better to eat after a workout rather than before, altho
> lite workouts (walking) after eating GREATLY help glycemic control.
>
> REAL weight loss, ie fat loss, occurs VERY slowly, not more than 1/2 #
> per week, usually less. AND, depending on the type of workouts, this
> may not even be detectable, depending on changes in muscle mass.

Lately I have mostly just eaten one meal per day, but several years ago,
the last time I got down to this weight, that is precisely how I ate.

> Those biggest losers have lost, alright.... MUSCLE!!! Muscle can
> easily be lost at twice the rate of fat, and poss. much higher than
> that.
>
> Every one of those biggest losers has destroyed themselves
> metabolically, viscerally. Those biggest losers should be losing TOPS
> 1 1/2 # per week, after initial water loss. Proly only 3/4-1# per
> week. And then less than 1/2# per week as the BMI gets in the high
> 20's.

I agree that the Biggest Loser is not the right template. I am not in a
hurry.

> A few lucky ones will keep the weight off, but even they may suffer
> from permanently weakened joints, hernias, other
> consitutional/metabolic issues.
>
> Calorie-counting -- which is really just "understanding food" if you
> are not just counting blindly -- is critical, and I highly recommend
> the Bowes and Church series of Food Values of Portions Commonly Used,
> edited by Jean Pennington, 18th ed -- about 2005, iirc -- about $7
> iirc on amazon, later editions much more expensive.
>
> This is a MUST for anyone serious about knowledgeable weight loss,
> intelligent eating, and will give data junkies like you a
> long-standing chubby.
>
> All their data comes out of the USDA database (free), and and for real
> *analysis* you'd want to stick with that pyooter database, but for
> consumers, in both foodies and weight loss, the book is REALLY handy
> to have, extremely well done. THOUSANDS of foods, including the
> complete amino acid profiles of hundreds, including fruits, of all
> things.
>
> Heh, you might even find your P&B donuts in there....

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jason

Existential Angst[_2_]
October 3rd 10, 07:25 PM
"Jason Earl" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, Oct 03 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> "Jason Earl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sat, Oct 02 2010, Existential Angst wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> EA. You seem to revel in the fact that you have answers without
>>> data. I, on the other hand, have lots of data, but very few concrete
>>> answers.
>>
>> Heh, which should REALLY tell you something, Jason, about your effing
>> data.... hilarious....
>
> I just understand that unless the question is very simple, and unless
> you can easily account for all of the variables, that it is very
> difficult to gather enough data to give a clear picture.
>
> You actually provide a very good example as to why this is true in this
> post. Someone watching "The Biggest Loser" would probably come to
> several very dangerous conclusions about weight loss.
>
> I have seven months of food data for one person. My food log is based,
> where possible, on the latest USDA database, but there have been plenty
> of times where I have been forced to simply as the calories involved. I
> have also only really been concerned about calories. I have not made
> much of an attempt at all to even track macronutrients, much less meal
> timing, or any number of other possible variables, all of which may or
> may not be important.

All you really need is a general idea of overall calories for a portion
size, and a general idea of fat, carb, protein distribution. One of those
round small scales comes in handy for quickly getting an idea of portion
stats, so you don't even have to use it all the time.

>
> The conclusion I feel that I can confidently make is that tracking what
> I ate has helped me to lose 30+ pounds in the 7 months. I can also make
> some educated guesses as to how many calories per week I require to
> maintain my current weight, etc.
>
> This information has been pretty useful to me, but I am not going to
> pretend that this information has unlocked the secrets of weight loss.
>
>>> Of course, we both know that all of these systems are basically a
>>> series of equilibriums, and that these systems are ridiculously
>>> complex. I have known all along, for example, that losing weight was
>>> going to get harder over time.
>>
>> I used to believe this, but my BMR analysis shows that this is not
>> necessarily so, IF one takes care not to lose muscle. The downside
>> is, weight loss is *uniformly* VERY slow. See below.
>>
>>> What's more, none of the 30+ pound weight loss I have experienced
>>> since the beginning of March has been particularly linear. It is
>>> even entirely possible that the weight loss and exercise are
>>> completely unrelated.
>>>
>>> I don't know why I lost the weight like I did, and I do not have
>>> enough data to even guess (yet).
>>
>> No, it's that your data has been taken in a bit of a vacuum.
>
> Agreed. My data is not part of a study.
>
>>> My point with this particular example is that if you were to track
>>> your fitness variables more closely you might well be surprised what
>>> sort of patterns you saw. I am *not* trying to say that kettlebell
>>> drills are some sort of miracle exercise. I am just stating the
>>> observed facts that I carefully recorded.
>>
>> While you hunt for patterns from arduous data, I already know that C =
>> 2pi*r*, x^2+y^2=r^2 -- really makes life easier.
>
> Arduous? I write down my weight once a day. I plan my workouts a week
> in advance, and then write down what I actually do (plus some notes).
> Writing down everything I eat is more work. However, I would bet that I
> spend less than 10 minutes a day.
>
> Heck, I spend more time posting to MFW than I do keeping track of my
> fitness. I am pretty confident that the time spent on my fitness
> journal is better spent than my time here.
>
>>> In a couple of weeks I am going to take a week off of my normal
>>> routine to test myself. One day I am going to do a 24kg 10 minute
>>> kettlebell snatch test. Another day I am going to run my hill
>>> course. I am going to attempt a max one hand clean and press, and a
>>> max deadlift. I am considering some other tests, including running a
>>> 10K on my treadmill. The reason that I am going to do this is I
>>> would like to be even more deliberate than I have been in the past
>>> when it comes to trying to quantify my progress over time.
>>>
>>> After testing myself I am going to take a week off, and then I am
>>> going to do something else for three months (at which point I will
>>> test myself again).
>>>
>>> Some of these tests will probably show that I have taken a step or
>>> two backwards in some areas. I predict that it will likely take me a
>>> year to be able to begin to truly assess how well this current
>>> workout regimen actually worked. I am happy with how things have
>>> worked so far, but it is quite possible that when I have gathered
>>> more data and compared three months of kettlebell drills to some
>>> other types of workouts that this three months will be a
>>> disappointment.
>>
>> Man, you must have one lousy memory.....
>
> OK, so how much could you deadlift a year ago? How about your bench
> press? How long did it take you to run 1.5 miles? How much has your
> time improved, or digressed in the last six months? How many workouts
> did you miss last year? What kinds of workouts were you most likely to
> miss? What is your personal best in the clean and press? What is your
> personal best for the clean and press for a set of 5?

Funny, alladat is burned in my brain. I can tell you my running times,
lifts from 30 years ago -- and on what machines, free weights, etc. I can
tell you the *people* I was able to lift overhead. Heh, mostly skinny
gerlz.....

Oh sheeit, mebbe this is bad.... Ahm thinkin Friedes does the same
thing!!!!

Except, I'll bet he recounts alladis EVERY NIGHT, **AND** studies his 30
year old notes, and tape footages.....


>
> The list of questions that I have been able to answer only because I
> wrote this stuff down is pretty long.
>
> My memory is pretty good, but I do not trust it to remember this sort of
> data for longer than a few days. Fortunately writing these numbers down
> takes almost no time at all. It is possible that your memory is so much
> better than mine that you can easily remember these details, but I doubt
> it.

See the above.

The fact of the matter is that you have simply decided that these
> details don't matter, and you have chosen a workout template that is
> simple enough that you do not need to remember details.

A lot of it doesn't matter, if you understand the Laws.


>
> I use my notes all of the time. You can try and convince me that my
> notes aren't useful, but you sound a lot like the blind man that was
> convinced that the elephant was like a spear because he only felt the
> tusks.

Well, mebbe for you they are useful now. But mebbe you should wonder WHY
you find them so necessary, in light of this discussion. If you grokked the
fundamentals a little better, you proly wouldn't be so dependent on them.

Having said that, I write **** down all the time, but mostly for others to
read, feed back on. After a week, it is mostly irretrievable -- and
superfluous -- history. Superfluous because most of this is the
*obligatory* result of a rational strategy. I am keenly aware of when ****
doesn't turn out right, as it turns out wrong.... etc.

>
>>> I don't know..
>>>
>>> I do know that answering these kinds of questions without writing
>>> stuff down is basically impossible. You talk all of the time about
>>> how the workouts you are doing are the most efficient possible, but
>>> without notes you have essentially no data to back that up.
>>
>> And, from the above, with all your effing data, Jason, YOU can't back
>> anything up either, ito cause, effect, mechanism, etc!!!
>> Hilarious.....
>
> That's simply because I have an idea how much data it takes to come to a
> useful conclusion.

Man, you need more theory.... and not just reading bull**** abstracts from
bull**** "studeez"...

>
> For example. For over two years I ran my hill course 2 to 3 times a
> week, writing down the time it took me each time. I gathered enough
> data so that I could predict, very accurately, how long it would take me
> to run the route on any given day. Then, as part of an experiment, I
> stopped running the route for a month and instead did Tabata sprints 3
> times a week. At the end of the month I ran the hill course again and
> crushed my previous best time.

And you couldn't have remembered that, without notes??? goodgawd.....

>
> Now, in a simplistic world I might conclude that instead of running the
> hill route I should just do sprints. And, in fact, that's what I did.
> I did all sorts of Tabata sprints, Tabata front squats, etc, but I did
> not really make any more progress.
>
> That PR stood for almost four years (I will admit that due to some
> personal issues I did not work regularly for about a year and a half of
> that). I recently broke that PR. The formula was a couple of months of
> much longer runs at much slower speeds, and then a month of kettlebell
> drills.
>
> So what does that mean? To be honest, I am not totally sure. Part of
> me wants to say that my increased practice running helped me beat my
> best time. However, I ran the hill course once while I was still
> concentrating on longer runs, and I very poorly. It was not until I
> spent some time at a much higher intensity that I was able to set a new
> PR.
>
> At the end of my current kettlebell phase I will test myself and see
> where I stand. That probably will not answer my questions completely
> either, but it will at least give me some more clues.
>
> That's how science works. You inevitably get more questions than
> answers.
>
>> Apparently, those 9# weight losses were anomalous glitches, eh?
>
> Losing 9 pounds in 2 months was not anomalous. Losing 9 pounds in one
> month was extraordinary, but it is certainly not unheard of.
>
> Could I do it again? I have no idea. I certainly do not want to put
> the weight back on to test. Will I at least consider a short time doing
> kettlebell drills if I ever want to lose weight again? Yes, I probably
> will.

What were your weights when you lost those 9#?

What is your weight now?

Form the ratio, and you should be able to lose a *proportional* amount of
weight NOW, if your theories/data are correct. No need to re-gain the
weight.




>
>>> I am not saying you are not right. I believe that lifting heavy
>>> stuff over your head is a workout that is hard to beat. I am just
>>> saying that you have very little actual evidence to support that what
>>> you are doing is optimal.
>>
>> Which is why it is important to read, understand some physical THEORY,
>> and not flail around blind.
>
> Perhaps you could suggest some reading?
>
> I have read a great deal, and, as you have no doubt noticed, regularly
> quote from actual research that I have read.

You need to read more than abstracts.

>
>> The diff. between us is that YOU tabulate, and I calculate.
>>
>> And, ahm gonna lay the results of some my calcs on you, without
>> justifying it right now:
>>
>> If you really want to lose weight, continue what you are doing,
>> activity-wise. You can't really beat running and lifting -- heh, even
>> if the lifting is done with kb's......
>
> In another two weeks, I will be switching how I exercise. I will likely
> be shifting towards a six day workout week. I will run 3 days a week,
> and lift (barbells) 3 days a week. I have not decided what weight
> training program I will follow, but I plan on running 14 miles per week.
> Two 4 mile runs, and one 6 mile run.
>
>> The KEY, tho, is, small frequent meals, 2-300 cals per meal, every 3
>> hours. You may be amazed at just how little food this is, junk-food
>> wise. It could be literally one bite of those donuts! Or 1/4 of your
>> normal sandwich.
>
> I tend to prefer simple sandwiches. Most are just above 300 calories a
> piece, but some are less.

I doubt that. Most bread is AT LEAST 100 cals a slice. Add to that yer
sugar water, donut, or whatever, and you may be at 1,000 cals. It requires
substantial discipline and mental re-programming to do small frequent meals,
AND do them in a way where you are not catabolizing muscle by the cupful.

>
>> I would avoid Subways et al cuz those things, in my conpspiratorial
>> mind, are DESIGNED to leave you starving. No foolin. Plus the
>> quality of their food is absolutely minimal. Better than McD's, but
>> that's like comparing **** to diarrhea....
>
> I don't eat out much.
>
>> Low fat (good quality fat) helps in this strategy, but is actually not
>> essential. If high fat, the meal should proly be 150-200 cals.
>>
>> It is *always* better to eat after a workout rather than before, altho
>> lite workouts (walking) after eating GREATLY help glycemic control.
>>
>> REAL weight loss, ie fat loss, occurs VERY slowly, not more than 1/2 #
>> per week, usually less. AND, depending on the type of workouts, this
>> may not even be detectable, depending on changes in muscle mass.
>
> Lately I have mostly just eaten one meal per day, but several years ago,
> the last time I got down to this weight, that is precisely how I ate.

There you go.
The trick is to make this eating behavior *permanent*.

--
EA

>
>> Those biggest losers have lost, alright.... MUSCLE!!! Muscle can
>> easily be lost at twice the rate of fat, and poss. much higher than
>> that.
>>
>> Every one of those biggest losers has destroyed themselves
>> metabolically, viscerally. Those biggest losers should be losing TOPS
>> 1 1/2 # per week, after initial water loss. Proly only 3/4-1# per
>> week. And then less than 1/2# per week as the BMI gets in the high
>> 20's.
>
> I agree that the Biggest Loser is not the right template. I am not in a
> hurry.
>
>> A few lucky ones will keep the weight off, but even they may suffer
>> from permanently weakened joints, hernias, other
>> consitutional/metabolic issues.
>>
>> Calorie-counting -- which is really just "understanding food" if you
>> are not just counting blindly -- is critical, and I highly recommend
>> the Bowes and Church series of Food Values of Portions Commonly Used,
>> edited by Jean Pennington, 18th ed -- about 2005, iirc -- about $7
>> iirc on amazon, later editions much more expensive.
>>
>> This is a MUST for anyone serious about knowledgeable weight loss,
>> intelligent eating, and will give data junkies like you a
>> long-standing chubby.
>>
>> All their data comes out of the USDA database (free), and and for real
>> *analysis* you'd want to stick with that pyooter database, but for
>> consumers, in both foodies and weight loss, the book is REALLY handy
>> to have, extremely well done. THOUSANDS of foods, including the
>> complete amino acid profiles of hundreds, including fruits, of all
>> things.
>>
>> Heh, you might even find your P&B donuts in there....
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Jason