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Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 25th 06, 04:04 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
anthony
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Posts: 11
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.


"Alan Dicey" wrote in message
...
anthony wrote:

I've owned two pairs of gortex boots with complete leather exteriors.
Both of them I've used NIKWAX on for the last 2 years. The a few months
ago a friend who has a farm told me I was daft paying all that money for
something so hard to apply and expensive and I should use some duck fat
that he had extracted from his roast duck dinners. He reckoned that was
just fine on his boots which were gortex/leather. I declined the offer
but then brought a cheap tin of Dubin. Cheap, easy to apply and the
boots are 100% waterproof with no noticable affect on breathablility.


In which case your boots must have been clogged up already. Dubbin is a
wax/oil/tallow mixture which softens, conditions and waterproofs leather
by soaking in and filling the microscopic holes in the *leather* so that
water can't get through. It is certainly 100% non-breathable, and will
permanently ruin a Gore-Tex membrane.


Perhaps thats the case, but I think that after a years worth of use the
leather is going to need a bit more than a fancy hi tech spray that protects
the gortex membrane. Personally I prefer to sacrifice some of the gortex
premeability and keep the leather safe so that at least I still have a pair
of boots I can walk in. Besides, not applying the wax/oil treatment means
soggy leather, which makes the underlying permeable membrane quite useless.
I think it boils down to enjoying the use of a gortex membrane boot for a
year or so, then treating it as a leather boot.


  #12  
Old November 25th 06, 06:01 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
Alan Dicey
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Posts: 60
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

anthony wrote:
"Alan Dicey" wrote in message
...
anthony wrote:

I've owned two pairs of gortex boots with complete leather exteriors.
Both of them I've used NIKWAX on for the last 2 years. The a few months
ago a friend who has a farm told me I was daft paying all that money for
something so hard to apply and expensive and I should use some duck fat
that he had extracted from his roast duck dinners. He reckoned that was
just fine on his boots which were gortex/leather. I declined the offer
but then brought a cheap tin of Dubin. Cheap, easy to apply and the
boots are 100% waterproof with no noticable affect on breathablility.


In which case your boots must have been clogged up already. Dubbin is a
wax/oil/tallow mixture which softens, conditions and waterproofs leather
by soaking in and filling the microscopic holes in the *leather* so that
water can't get through. It is certainly 100% non-breathable, and will
permanently ruin a Gore-Tex membrane.


Perhaps thats the case, but I think that after a years worth of use the
leather is going to need a bit more than a fancy hi tech spray that protects
the gortex membrane. Personally I prefer to sacrifice some of the gortex
premeability and keep the leather safe so that at least I still have a pair
of boots I can walk in. Besides, not applying the wax/oil treatment means
soggy leather, which makes the underlying permeable membrane quite useless.
I think it boils down to enjoying the use of a gortex membrane boot for a
year or so, then treating it as a leather boot.



Treatments for Gore-Tex boots, like treatments for Gore-Tex jackets, are
surface treatments to enhance water repellency, to make water run off
instead of soaking in and blanketing the Gore-Tex membrane, which will
also negate the breathability.

If the Gore-Tex is intact, that's all that is needed. Usually the
Gore-Tex tears after a few walks, around the junction of sole and upper,
making it useless anyway.

Dubbin will completely and permanently destroy the breathability. How
much of a problem that is in a boot is arguable - I'm sure my Scarpa
SL's don't breathe much.
  #13  
Old November 25th 06, 09:01 PM posted to uk.rec.walking
GSV Three Minds in a Can
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Posts: 437
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

Bitstring , from
the wonderful person Alan Dicey said
snip
Dubbin will completely and permanently destroy the breathability.


As does Nikwax. Dubbin is purported to rot the thread/leather/etc. but
I've never had a big problem (these days Nikwax is easier to get).

How much of a problem that is in a boot is arguable - I'm sure my
Scarpa SL's don't breathe much.


Nor do the Welllies that people advocate from time to time. Nor do any
of my boots - the leather might breathe, but it's covered in mud and
water, both of which are fairly impermeable to gases (like water
vapour).

Boots do vent around the ankle, depending on the lining materials and
how tightly they are laced / fitted (else wellies would be even more
miserable than they already are).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
7,053 Km walked. 1,267Km PROWs surveyed. 23.0% complete.
  #14  
Old November 26th 06, 08:18 AM posted to uk.rec.walking,aus.bushwalking
Gus
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Posts: 1
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

In which case your boots must have been clogged up already. Dubbin is a
wax/oil/tallow mixture which softens, conditions and waterproofs leather
by soaking in and filling the microscopic holes in the *leather* so that
water can't get through. It is certainly 100% non-breathable, and will
permanently ruin a Gore-Tex membrane.




I aggree. Except I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
damanged significatly by the dubbin. That said, putting dubbin onto
the leather will make the GTX useless. So the same end result.


All that said, the original questions is talking about Nubuck, not
fullgrain leather. Dubbin shouldn't go on nubuck

  #15  
Old November 26th 06, 09:01 AM posted to uk.rec.walking,aus.bushwalking
Roger Caffin
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Posts: 8
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
damanged significatly by the dubbin.

The GoreTx membrane consists of a layer of Teflon covered by a thin layer of
polyurethane. Yes, in essence the much vaunted GoreTx is relying on PU, just
like the rest of the W/B fabrics. Not that GoreTex would DAMAGE either of
these afaik. Sure will make the membrane useless though.

What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.

Cheers
Roger Caffin


  #16  
Old November 26th 06, 02:16 PM posted to uk.rec.walking,aus.bushwalking
Alan Dicey
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Posts: 60
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

Roger Caffin wrote:
I don't actually know if the GTX membrane would be
damanged significatly by the dubbin.

The GoreTx membrane consists of a layer of Teflon covered by a thin layer of
polyurethane. Yes, in essence the much vaunted GoreTx is relying on PU, just
like the rest of the W/B fabrics.


The waterproof layer in Gore-Tex is flourocarbon, a sheet of PTFE
mechanically treated so that it contains pores that are larger than a
water molecule but much smaller than a water droplet. Surface tension
prevents liquid water from getting through (though it can still block
the pores) but water vapour can escape. A urethane layer is applied to
one side to repel oily contamination i.e. body oils. So Gore-Tex is not
using polyurethane coatings like any other waterproof fabric.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/article-...of_fabrics.htm

Not that GoreTex would DAMAGE either of
these afaik. Sure will make the membrane useless though.


I assume that GoreTex is a typo for Dubbin. Not chemical damage, no,
but rendering the membrane useless by coating the outside with wax,
clogging the pores.

What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.


I can find no evidence to support this, and I think it's an old wives
tale. I used dubbin on my first set of boots, and never saw any
evidence of the stitching being affected.
  #17  
Old November 26th 06, 08:22 PM posted to uk.rec.walking,aus.bushwalking
Roger Caffin
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Posts: 8
Default Treating Nubuck + Goretex boots.

The waterproof layer in Gore-Tex is flourocarbon, a sheet of PTFE
mechanically treated so that it contains pores that are larger than a
water molecule but much smaller than a water droplet. Surface tension
prevents liquid water from getting through (though it can still block
the pores) but water vapour can escape. A urethane layer is applied to
one side to repel oily contamination i.e. body oils. So Gore-Tex is not
using polyurethane coatings like any other waterproof fabric.

That's what Gore try to preach. However ...

GoreTex I was in fact just the Teflon layer, but it was a disaster in the
field because the sweat and dirt stuffed the surface tension. Massive
returns. So Gore had to come up with something to protect the Teflon layer.
The Bibler 'ToddTex' fabric may be GoreTex I still - I am not certain.

All the current GoreTex fabrics are Goretex II, which still has the Teflon
layer but covers it with a thin layer of PU. The PU stops the sweat, oils,
dirt etc from reaching the Teflon as planned, but the unanticipated
consequance is that the PU layer is now the limiting factor for
breathability. Despite being very thin, it is more of a barrier than the
Teflon. The ONLY advantage that the Teflon layer now gives to the fabric is
the smooth surface it presents, which allows a slightly thinner layer of PU
to be applied compared to what is normally used on a plain fabric. Gore seem
to be a little sensitive on this issue and usually avoid saying what their
special protective layer is made of, often just saying it is oleophobic.

My understanding is that eVent uses a Teflon layer too (the original Gore
patent expired), but they claim to have another way of protecting the
surface from contamination. So eVent is more breathable.

This is all discussed in the FAQ under Rainwear.

I assume that GoreTex is a typo for Dubbin. Not chemical damage, no,
but rendering the membrane useless by coating the outside with wax,
clogging the pores.

My error! You are right.

What Dubbin did do was rot the stitching. That was in the days of cotton
stitching though. Doubt it would damage polyester thread.

I can find no evidence to support this, and I think it's an old wives
tale. I used dubbin on my first set of boots, and never saw any
evidence of the stitching being affected.

You may be right with the 'old bit: it is a long time since cotton thread
was used in boots! Let's say before the '80s?

Cheers
Roger Caffin
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/


 




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